rec.autos.simulators

Is build 90 it, or will CART:PR be further improved?  If you choose to call
it quits now, the only consequence will be a lot of people requiring refunds
past the 30 day limit...and, of course, much future hostility should you
ever attempt to enter the racing simulation market again (although I doubt
you would).  If you would like to fix the product...and it seems eminently
fixable after the improvements we saw in the patch...then let's have an
intelligent discussion here about what needs to be fixed.  We can all ignore
the whiners and *** theorists together, but there are many serious
sim. fans who would like to help out in an attempt to have a useful and fun
product to use (which most of expect since we have already paid for the
privilege).

Thanks for your prompt reply.

--
****************************************************************************
Marc Collins

digital economies

http://www.racesimcentral.net/~digecon

"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine."
****************************************************************************

Well Dean did not post here but he did leave a message on The APEX message
board http://www.racesimcentral.net/ stating that MS will continue to support and
develop CART PR. I sent him an email tonight asking exactly what that meant?
Does that mean a future patch or only CPR 2.0. I have not received a reply
back yet. As soon as I get a reply if I do I will let everyone know.

Thanks
John
The APEX

+AD4-Is build 90 it, or will CART:PR be further improved?  If you choose to call
+AD4-it quits now, the only consequence will be a lot of people requiring
refunds
+AD4-past the 30 day limit...and, of course, much future hostility should you
+AD4-ever attempt to enter the racing simulation market again (although I doubt
+AD4-you would).  If you would like to fix the product...and it seems eminently
+AD4-fixable after the improvements we saw in the patch...then let's have an
+AD4-intelligent discussion here about what needs to be fixed.  We can all
ignore
+AD4-the whiners and *** theorists together, but there are many serious
+AD4-sim. fans who would like to help out in an attempt to have a useful and fun
+AD4-product to use (which most of expect since we have already paid for the
+AD4-privilege).
+AD4-
+AD4-Thanks for your prompt reply.
+AD4-
+AD4---
+AD4AKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACo-
+ACo-
+AD4-Marc Collins
+AD4-collinsm+AEA-interlog.com
+AD4-
+AD4-digital economies
+AD4-digecon+AEA-interlog.com
+AD4-http://www.racesimcentral.net/+AH4-digecon
+AD4-
+AD4AIg-Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine.+ACI-
+AD4AKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACoAKgAqACo-
+ACo-
+AD4-
+AD4-

Great...I wish he had posted here also.  Anyway, just as I suspected, our
blathering about the FINAL!!!! patch was much ado about nothing.

They said from day 1, quite publicly, that they would stick with CART:PR, so
I for one am looking forward to the results of that attention.  Perhaps
after the next patch, the game will be "playable" in the normal sense of
that term.

Marc.

sent him an e-mail tonight asking exactly what that meant? Does that mean a
future patch or only CPR 2.0. I have not received a reply back yet. As soon
as I get a reply if I do I will let everyone know. <<

I recall that Gp2 had to be withdrawn from sale because someone else owned
the current F1 licence. I've also noticed that Papyrus had to rename their
Indy Car sim to Cart, also because of copyright and licence reasons. Its
been in the news lately that Papyrus now have the Cart licence for the next
several years - until about 2005 or something I think. Given the exclusive
nature and limited time for which these licences seem to be granted I wonder
what Microsofts' position will be as soon as the current period licence
ownership passes to Papyrus. If Gp2 was forced from  the shelves because of
a similar situation then its possible MS might find themselves in the same
position. Without better knowledge one would have to assume  that Papyrus
had to pay a tidy sum for  the rights and will not willingly allow MS to
produce a competing product during their licence period.

Of course I know these things turn on the exact clauses in everyones'
contracts and one products' situation doesn't necessarily apply to another.
Just curious - that's all.

Phillip McNelley

Thanks for the post regarding Dean Lester's reply on APEX (what happened
to John Browne?); I thought I'd add some other tidbits from the site
which may give a clearer picture of Microft's and TRI's intentions
regarding the future of CPR, plus a little humor. I'll even refrain from
my usual commentary, except to say that apparently the question as to
whether Build 90 is the last patch for CPR has already been answered
over a week ago, and that Microsoft's commitment to this particular
market sliver may best be judged by their actions:

All selections from APEX, copyright 1997, 1998 John O'Keefe:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Jan 10, 1998:

<<CART Final Patch Released
The final version of the patch has been released by Microsoft. You can
download the patch from this site by going to the Downloads section.
This version is build 90 and is quite different from build 89 which was
the public beta. The main and most noticeable difference is the grip
level at intermediate and professional levels. Even though Microsoft has
not requested feedback on this patch from me I would appreciate it if
you could go to the Online Feedback Form and fill out
a new one on Build 90. The new form has additional questions that
pertain to build 90. I have a feeling that this may be Microsoft's last
patch so it is important that you provide your feedback. If there are
still major bugs or major voices towards another patch they may be
convinced that another one is necessary or not. If they do not create
another patch your feedback will be invaluable for the CPR 2.0
development team.>>

Jan 15, 1998:

<<If you haven't heard yet Terminal Reality has joined G.O.D. (Gathering
of Developers). G.O.D. is a Co-Op publishing company that is composed of
many different game developers like 3D-Realms, Apogee, and Terminal
Reality. This means that T.R.I. will finish its existing contracts with
Microsoft but after that they will do their publishing with G.O.D. Now
what that means for CART Precision Racing I'm not sure. I have sent
emails to Dean Lester and T.R.I. asking what this means for the future
of CPR but have not received a reply back yet. Microsoft had said that
they were in this for the long haul but this announcement throws a kink
in the plan.>>

Jan 18. 1998:

<<Dean Lester sent me email stating the following stating [?] [here
comes the humor...] that CART Precision Racing has earned Computer
*** World's award for "Sports Game of the Year"! The game also
received a 5 out 5 rating by CGW. Dean also said:

Thank you for your all your hard work and please note that MS will
continue to support and develop CPR.

- Dean

I have sent an email to Dean to find out if support and develop means
another patch or if we will have to wait for CPR
2.0 for changes. One thing that is for sure is that a track editor will
be released.>>

I hate to burst your happy bubble, and if I'm wrong about this, I'd love
to hear otherwise from either Dean Lester or John Browne, or whoever's
fronting the group these days, but if you look at the full text of the
messages posted at John's APEX site (see my previous post on this
subject for pertinent quotes):

http://cart.gamestats.com

I think you'll agree that there's little cause for rejoicing yet. Taken
at the best of all possible readings, it would certainly seem that the
"Final Patch" to version 1 of CPR is Build 90, already released and
largely bemoaned. The strong implication is that nothing more will be
done until version 2 is released.

Who knows when and by whom that version will be released? With TRI
slipping away from the MS fold, only those two entities know for sure
who has the rights to CPR, and the responsibility of supporting (read
"finishing") it.

Since it is apparent that no one from the MS/TRI CART team is inclined
to post anywhere but on extremely friendly territory, they're not about
to admit in this NG that "CPR v1 Build 90" is, as far as they're
concerned, a finished product.

As I've said, I'd be delighted to be proven wrong...

Bart Brown

As to your assertion:

"If you read the text (and NG postings) from MS...it seems quite clear
that there will be future patches. That's what Lester and Browne have
said from the beginning and if I were them I would also be reluctant to
keep answering the same question (more patches or not) over and over
again, especially given the recent environment on r.a.s."

...I could well have missed something, but I haven't seen a post
attributable to Microsoft (regarding management decisions, beta testers
are as unreliable as third parties, as far as my experience goes) that
says they plan on any further patches, while I have seen rather reliable
news that TRI is going its separate way with GOD. In fact, I haven't
seen a post from ANYONE at MS since the famous 12/16 John Browne post.

Wasn't Build 90 released *after* that message, like around 1/10, 1998?
Whether MS, Lester, or Browne like the environment in RAS or not, Mr.
Browne, at least, made a commitment to keep the group informed. IMHO, he
hasn't fulfilled that commitment.

If you've heard otherwise, I'd be delighted to be re-educated!

Regards

Bart Brown

Subject:      >>> CPR Patch Available <<<

Date:         1998/01/07

Newsgroups:   rec.autos.simulators
[More Headers]

<snip...>

just pointing it out..
--
Dave Otterness

Dave--

Right you are, and thanks! Here it is:

<<Subject:      >>> CPR Patch Available <<<

Date:         1998/01/07

Newsgroups:   rec.autos.simulators
[More Headers]

<<snipped URL so people don't start posting there... THIS IS AN OLD
MESSAGE>>

Please send us your feedback on this (beta) patch ASAP.

In particular we'd like to know:-

1) Frame rate changes on your system
2) AI improvements
3) Steering stability

Send your feedback to ...

<<snipped URL so people don't start posting there... THIS IS AN OLD
MESSAGE>>

or

<<snipped URL so people don't start posting there... THIS IS AN OLD
MESSAGE>>

Thanks again for your patience.

CPR Team.>>

So that was two weeks ago, in response to which (I assume), Build 90 was
released on or about the 10th. Since that time and that release, the
question has been asked over and over -- is this the last patch to v1 of
CPR, or isn't it? It still seems like an easy question for MS/TRI to
answer.

Again, thanks to Dave Otterness for pointing out the error (at least one
of them!) of my ways...

Bart Brown

Then Micro$$$oft no longer owes me anything. I have spent over $500 on MS
products, and after trying and failing to get even the most basic of
questions answered (ie: Why is there a black rectangle over my mouse
pointer in CPR) i've had enough. Windows 98? Don't make me laugh. Publisher
97? Yeah, I bet. I hope that Billy G. has his billions well invested
because if his company continues to take the same arrogant attitude with
its customers that it does with the Justice Department there will not be
much more cash rolling his way. I know that none of mine will.
Regards,
W Spilman

WHOOOOOoooo!!, Marc, Whats this??

Criticism of a vendor?????  Didn't you just give me hell for doing the same
thing??

Did you open the little plastic baggie with the Keys in it??  (See other
post)

That's OK.  You have more money than you know what to do with.  Microsoft is
there to help you with that.

----------------------------------------------------------
If You think health care is expensive now, wait till it's free!

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