rec.autos.simulators

by **Sebastien Tixie** » Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:02:14

hi,

Well the problem is that , us human, have a fov a nearly 180 and spherical
retina so tou just CANT recreate the right FOV ,right sens of speed and right
sens of distance,with a flat small monitor.

Then you need to choose what you miss much ... fov ? sens of speed ? sens of
distance ?

It's realy hard to tune !

best regards,
--
Sebastien TIXIER - Game Developer
Dynamics and Car Physics
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
GPLRank Normal:-44.24 Monster:-124.44

by **Andre Warrin** » Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:08:46

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:13:04 GMT, "Steve Blankenship"

>An interesting "perspective". Back in '99, I made some alternate incar views with Brian Heiland's car cam editor for someone who
>wanted to have the speed and rpm display while driving in-car. And in the process I fooled around with the FOV and ended up going
>back to Papy's 78 degrees. A wider FOV does increase sense of speed nicely, but then the courses look too different from the other
>camera views, which all use 78 degrees, if memory serves. The narrower FOV's just ruin sense of speed for me, and seem to compress
>distance too much. As for comparing the views to the real tracks, I'd reference "Lap of the Gods" which I recently watched (&
>taped). It has onboard film from several GPL tracks in it, including Kyalami and Zandvoort. If anything, I thought GPL's 78 degree
>FOV had a bit of zoom effect relative to the TV cam, but of course I don't know what length lens that was using. I've only been
>'round Spa in person, but I'd say the same applies there as well. It's a long run down into Eau Rouge, for instance, and GPL seems
>to compress it a bit much. Think I'll mess with this a bit and compare the results to the tape.

>Time to X-Periment...

>SB

Steve, let me know your results please.. So far I found 50 degrees and
x -0.3400 (for lotus and eagle) to give me the best results.
Sensation of speed decreased a bit on long straights, but I now have
much more feeling of depth and speed in the corners, which I an
extremely good compromis :)

Andre

by **Andre Warrin** » Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:11:51

<snip>

Thanks for clearing that up :)
On the GPLEA forum were indeed some discussions about this.
I also noticed a more twitchy steering with the new POV. I took me
about 2-3 hours to get used to it and get back to my old laptimes.
Also the braking zones -seem- to have changed.

Andre

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:23:59

Yeah, I noticed that on some of the replays as well. The camera was mounted high, but tilted down to show off the car and driver;
an extreme being the Tyrell 6-wheeler. Pretty thought-provoking watching it circulate without the upper shroud mounted, realizing
the drivers had no real side protection above hip level. MS would probably not approve... ;-)

SB

> The Lap of the Gods used several different camera lenses and point of
> views. ON some of the shots you can see quite far into the distance, fairly
> similar to GPL and other sims, but on several of the laps, the camera was
> pointed at a lower angle and I found myself constantly trying to look UNDER
> the top edge of the TV to try & see further off. I either am used to the
> sim view or I just felt constrained by not being able to 'look' down the
> track with the camera's eye.

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Sat, 13 Oct 2001 03:44:30

Hi Andre,

Had a go at lunch and the results confirmed my earlier experiments from '99; more than a degree or two either side of Papy's
defaults just doesn't work (for me). Too wide a FOV (over 80) and distances look too stretched relative to the filmed comparisons;
too narrow (below 76) and the opposite occurs, for me at least, as well as a very exaggerated impression of motion. I tried your 50
degree settings and gave myself a headache in one lap of Kyalami! ;-) Indeed, with a wider FOV, the car "seems" quite calm and
stable, while the narrow FOV has it feeling extremely twitchy. But it really isn't so remarkable that the FOV affects perceived
"sensitivity". Rather than the steering being locked to FOV as has been conjectured by some, just imagine driving your real car
while looking through a zoom lens. Hey; they make tripods for a reason!

Papy knows best, methinks - surprise! ;-)

SB

> Steve, let me know your results please.. So far I found 50 degrees and
> x -0.3400 (for lotus and eagle) to give me the best results.
> Sensation of speed decreased a bit on long straights, but I now have
> much more feeling of depth and speed in the corners, which I an
> extremely good compromis :)

> Andre

by **Leo Landma** » Sat, 13 Oct 2001 07:10:55

Funny, I had exactly the opposite experience. I've driven the Ring, Spa and
Zandvoort in person, and in all cases the straights seemed much shorter, the
hills much steeper than GPL had led me to believe! Hence, the FOV must be
wrong (although much more practical when driving on a monitor).

Amen.

Bye,
Leo

by **Andre Warring** » Sat, 13 Oct 2001 07:49:06

>> It's a long run down into Eau Rouge, for instance, and GPL seems
>> to compress it a bit much.

>Funny, I had exactly the opposite experience. I've driven the Ring, Spa and
>Zandvoort in person, and in all cases the straights seemed much shorter, the
>hills much steeper than GPL had led me to believe! Hence, the FOV must be
>wrong (although much more practical when driving on a monitor).

Exactly - after spending 3 days on the Ring, I missed something in the
GPL version.. the new setting makes it much closer to the real life
experience - in my experience :)

Andre

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:29:33

Hmmm...... Oh well, perception's a funny thing. But since my in-person experience is rather dated ('88) and my frame of reference
is thus mostly from the Telly, I'll bow to you guys and try the narrower FOV some more.

Cheers,

SB

> Exactly - after spending 3 days on the Ring, I missed something in the
> GPL version.. the new setting makes it much closer to the real life
> experience - in my experience :)

> Andre

by **Eldre** » Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:55:31

> The Lap of the Gods used several different camera lenses and point of
>views. ON some of the shots you can see quite far into the distance, fairly
>similar to GPL and other sims, but on several of the laps, the camera was
>pointed at a lower angle and I found myself constantly trying to look UNDER
>the top edge of the TV to try & see further off. I either am used to the
>sim view or I just felt constrained by not being able to 'look' down the
>track with the camera's eye.

I seem to have the opposite problem in GPL. I don't think I *am* looking into
the distance. It seems that I'm staring at a point just in front of my car.
I'd forgotten about that for a while. Last year or so when I made a conscious
effort to look in the distance, my eyes started to hurt after a while. I don't
know why it's so tough to look ahead in GPL, when I don't have a problem in my
real car. Especially when others(such as yourself) don't have a problem in
GPL.

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +360.54...

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Mats Lofkvis** » Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:08:36

[snip]

True, but regarding GPL it's the other way around: the standard
view is like driving your car while looking through a wide angle lens
(unless you have a very large monitor).

You get the natural perspective only when the FOV is the same
as the angle between the left and right screen edge (as seen from
your eyes). Anything else either gives a wide angle or a zoom effect.

With the combination of monitor size and distance to the monitor
you normally get with a PC, 78 degrees FOV is way too much to
get a natural perspective.

The 78 degrees was _not_ choosen to get a natural perspective,
but to get a resonable compromise between a natural perspective
and showing as much of the total view visible to the human eye
as possible (which would need something like 180 degrees FOV).

_
Mats Lofkvist

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