rec.autos.simulators

Well... after perusing the net and hearing this and that about TOCA 2 I couldn't wait to try out the demo.  The following are the Pro's and Con's from my perspective (sim-head) with a brief summary.

PRO'S

Graphics - Very nice!  I love the way the cars look on and off the track.  The atmosphere in the***pit is nice also.  On a PII 400/Voodoo2 with everything on there was no noticeable frame rate hit.

Interface - While similar to the previous edition this setup has a more tactile feel to it along with the same easy navigation.  No complaints here.

Fun Factor - Could be rewarding if you decide what you need out of the experience is within the means of the software.

CON'S (a second chance will be given to all these topics tonight, it's only fair)

Controls - Any driving software that doesn't allow the separation of the gas and brake from the same axis is a major bummer in my opinion.  Control of the car is very limited in this scenario.  To add to this displeasure, anyone with a wheel not setup in this configuration will have trouble even getting around the menu's as they continually scroll if the controller is un-calibrated or configured incorrectly.

Garage - Sparse is too kind a word.  I believe my son's tricycle has more available adjustments aside from the gearing changes and to simulate this I give him an apple or some lemon heads.

Physics - Set to maximum realism left me flat.  I could not tell the difference between these cars and Need for Speed.  Absolutely no feel of weight transference whatsoever.  Sometimes the car would turn on a dime and sometimes it unexpectedly spun off the track.  It almost seemed as if the physics were entirely in sections of the track  i.e. sticky corner here, slippery corner there.  If the environment played a part in how the car handled I must have been sleeping.

Sound - A little more throaty note from the engine would have been nice but overall it didn't entirely suck.
    *    *    *    *    *    *    *
Overall it seems to be more of an arcade racer than anything else.  Maybe I was hoping for the simulated version of Gran Turismo on the PC, thus my negative attitude.  The info touted on all the web pages prior to this release sure did whet my appetite though<sigh>. Since it's free and everyone has a chance to try it out, by all means do.  I for one will give it another go or 3 and finalize my decision then.  but as far as first impressions go, this one needs a second.

Ripp
"Opinions are like..... everybody's got one"

Controls - Any driving software that doesn't allow the separation of the gas
and brake from the same axis is a major bummer in my opinion.  Control of
the car is very limited in this scenario.  To add to this displeasure,
anyone with a wheel not setup in this configuration will have trouble even
getting around the menu's as they continually scroll if the controller is
un-calibrated or configured incorrectly.

+++++++++++++++

  Try putting one pedal all the way down and it should stop, then you can
use the keyboard.

Also,  it does support separate throttle and brake.  I used my MSFF to great
effect with it in that mode.

~daxe

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Yes there is split-axis in IndyCar Racing 2, Nascar2, etc.. but it's more
the fact of allowing the seperation of gas/brake at the same time. Most of
them will only take the gas/brake axis and create one huge axis.

Actually Im not sure if it's modeled. Even if it is it's wrong.  Just go
slow in a corner, and be 50% on the gas and 100% on the brake. The car will
get loose. It should tighten.

IIRC there's an analog speedo also in the option somewhere (after layers and
layers of menus)

the sound is an almost exact replica from Toca1, but it's realistic

-= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.racesimcentral.net/
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-= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-= May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

One thing tho, on my MS precision pro I could separate brake/throttle to my
throttle wheel and y-axis.

Ben

I've been using split-axis in TOCA 2 with my MS FF wheel.

Cocking the wheel to one extreme and/or standing on the pedals stabilized
the menus for me.

I found the force feedback to be impressive. I could definitely tell when
the tires on the fwd Accord were breaking free. Also, got a very impressive
FF effect when I clouted the berm on the inside of the hairpin leading on to
the front straight under power!

Question:
Why give us a little digital speedometer that you can only read with wheel
turned???

Sound:
I agree that the engine sound could be improved somewhat. It seems touring
car authentic...maybe that it just needs to be a little more ***? I
thought the "shake, rattle, and roll" sounds generated during off-road
excursions were great. Along the lines of off-road excursions...

Question:
Why does the AI always seem to be able to get back underway so quickly after
such an excursion. They can go off behind you and always seem to rocket away
as if they're not subject to the same potential wheelspin in the grass that
we mortals are. Seems to be the case in GPL also. Agreed?

Yep. I saw and selected that, though as I recall it was for an analog tach.
In any case it, had no effect...still the same digital tach and seldom
visible digital speedometer.

There does seem to be "weight transfer", but it is very ponderous and
not at all what I'd expect from a touring car. Then too look at the
on-screen depiction of this transfer and body roll - it is extremely
canned and unloads in one smooth movement well after the corner has
been completed, not bearing a relation to the lateral g as it should.

They are pretty wild though - the car loses grip _incredibly_ quickly
(which may well be fair enough), but, and this is what seems wierd, it
regains the grip incredibly quickly as well. If you dial-in opposite
lock very rapidly the rear catches despite the rotational speed being
seemingly uncatchable.

Way overgenerous IMO. I can hammer over kerbs or through chicanes and
land sideways with full throttle and the rear remains planted.

I thought the camera angles were a bit wierd and flicked too rapidly
from one view to the next - it made it difficult or impossible to
watch races (although it did add to the e***ment). I'd prefer a more
"TV" view as other sims have.

Cheers!
John

Supplementary question - when did you find the time to look at the
speedo or tach?! :-)  I haven't yet found the time (or the need) to
use it.

I found that aspect okay - maybe I'm just punting the AI farther than
you! :-)  Seriously though, I didn't think they got underway any
quicker than I was able. The exception to this is the FF - those guys
just disappear at the start!

Cheers!
John

FWD makes that a little more plausible, perhaps.

Well, I have since discovered that a digital speedo is displayed in what I'm
calling the "windscreen view", as well as a digital OR analog tach. The
disappointing thing is I haven't found a really visible speedo in the replay
views to help in analyzing my driving style.

On the need to glance at the tach:

I've found that this thing seems to continue to pull and sound strong well
past redline, so when I was initially shifting by ear I discovered that I
was shifting well past their displayed redline. The Accord seems to
accelerate best when somewhat short-shifted.

Right. It does seem to help when you discover yourself amongst a bunch of
sideways fenders to just find a lower gear and bull your way through! But if
that gets you sideways and hopelessly off the back, have you discovered the
connecting road that will get you back in the fray if you feel compelled to
swap paint for the balance of your 3 laps?

gas and brake from the same
in this scenario.  To add to
have trouble even getting around
or configured incorrectly.

You can separate the brake and gas under TOCA 2.  First you have to
calibrate the stick in the TOCA options screen.  Once it knows all of the
axes that are available, you can then split the brake/gas.

It works.

-Paul

Good point - too tuned into GPL :-)

Cheers!
John

I've only ever raced karts and driven in Formula Firsts (both RWD). I
understand a little of the theoretical physics of racing but I'm in no
position to accurately evaluate the accuracy beyond how it "feels". I have
to bow to those who know better. It felt heaps better than TOCA1 (not
surprisingly, as they've completely rewritten their physics engine), and I
felt this immediately I "got in" the Honda. It was almost impossible to
induce oversteer from TOCA1 etc etc

I wasn't looking hard enough - I'll recheck. "Canned" is an interesting
concept in programming though - you almost never want to do it. The
principle reason is that it's very inefficient - loads of "if" statements
make for weighty code and you'd prefer to use an algorithm if at all
possible. The exceptions are sounds and graphical textures (eg. the people
in most sims - cardboard cut-outs). I suspect that even NFS uses algorithms
to determine car behaviour. The issue then becomes the accuracy and depth of
the algorithms. This is what makes GPL so good - the algorithms map the
various car/track parts to a low level and the whole resembles a car more
accurately than anything before. I wrote an evolution simulation once. I was
mapping gene frequencies and how they spread. The main problem here was that
I had to "can" the effects of the genes or rather the resulting proteins. No
way could I predict the behaviour of the protein without using every
computer in the galaxy and a few from the next. The problem all sims face is
that the world is much too complex to model. You have to make
generalisations and GPL has done so to a lesser degree than TOCA2 which is
less again than NFS. For example, in an imaginary sim, one set of algorithms
will yield the approximate surface area of *** from one tyre in contact
with a section of track and another the approximate forces at work between
the two. A third set of algorithms will determine the reactions of that
contact and feed the results back into other algorithms that will finally
predict the positional, kinetic, potential and other data for the various
parts of the car. However sophisticated the algorithms are this approach is
"canned" in another sense. What is happening is that billions of ***
molecules of *** and other stuff are interreacting with billions of
molecules of tarmac and other stuff - some of the interreactions are
chemical - the *** is oxidising - some physical etc etc. The point is
that either all driving models are canned or none are. Perhaps this is a
linguistic point, perhaps it's deeper.

Probably right - on the other hand FWD would make the rear more easy to lose
especially with different wheel spins or grip across the 2 front tyres.

Magical isn't it :-) Problems in their algorithms, I expect.

Dunno - perhaps you're right. I don't want to get into MGP right now, but it
seems to me that there are one or two problems with this one as well. On the
other hand, I've never driven a modern F1 either so I can't talk
authoritively about it anyway.

Yep, agree 100%. I wish they'd have given us longer with each view, though I
quite liked the track-cam. Still want to see splits in GPL, though, or at
least an elapsed clock that showed hundreths of seconds.

Cheers,
Paul