rec.autos.simulators

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

Jan Verschuere

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Jan Verschuere » Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:40:53

Ditto... it would sometimes pick up this terminal push through 3 and 4,
which seemingly had no relation to the way one drove the corners. True, it
was better when one really went in deep and rode the brake, killing the RF
in the process, but I found no difference between normally and underdriving
a corner.

I also had to live with the plough untill I got way into 4 and could lift
out/re-align the car for my drive out of the turn.

If you notice, in the RL race, most hooked up cars (like Bill Elliot) take a
fairly early apex through T3 and then just wide arc through T4, a line I
just couldn't get to work for me using the fast setup.

As I made an open setup from the fast setup I remember I did spent quite a
lot of time on camber, castor and damper settings until I could get the car
to respond predictably to the other setup changes. I also raised the car
1/2" all round. (I should really log this stuff to some sore of database).

Cheers,

Jan.
=---

Jan Verschuere

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Jan Verschuere » Thu, 09 Oct 2003 02:39:28

Those aren't plans, those are ideas/goals. Plans are what you are going to
do to acchieve the above.

Fuel and tyre strategy are not mute. You need to know what your fuel and
tyre windows are. Knowing when you're in your window can make all the
difference if there's a late green stint in the race (as there often is).
It's also important to know how your tyres wear: in stages, gradually or
quickly at the beginning an less  afterwards and how hard you can push and
still get reasonable mileage out of them.

Even if there's a caution every 5 laps at some point in a race, you can use
the above knowledge to your advantage. For example: you have a tendency to
qualify lower than you can actually run in the race. If you're at a track
where, after the initial stick is gone, the tyres stay reasonably constant
you can use a caution for track position. By the time the top 6 have gone
around you the other's tyres will have lost their edge and you're where you
need to be in the race. In a succession of cautions you can also skip
pitting at one one to have a clear pit at the next, etc...

The bottom line is you have to be thinking about what you need to do to be
where you need to be at the end of the race all the time. If you
indescriminately race those around you, you end up hurting your own effort.
You have to continually evaluate whether taking or defending the position
_now_ is worth it in de grander scheme of the race.

Jan.
=---

Jan Verschuere

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Jan Verschuere » Thu, 09 Oct 2003 02:47:37

True, setup is a very personal thing. Which is why I'm always amazed people
will rather try to adapt to someone elses setup rather than attempting to
set the car up to their own liking, but anyway...

I wouldn't so much describe the intermittent behaviour by this setup as a
deficiency, as a deficiency implies that one has defined what's wrong and
knows how to avoid it or counteract it when it happens. That's not the case
here, so I would rather call it a quirk.

Jan.
=---

Eldre

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Eldre » Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:08:18



>True, setup is a very personal thing. Which is why I'm always amazed people
>will rather try to adapt to someone elses setup rather than attempting to
>set the car up to their own liking, but anyway...

Because not everyone has a setup ability.  If you gave me a setup that I
couldn't drive, I'm SOL.  I might change the brake bias or steering ration.  If
that didn't work I wouldn't have a CLUE how to suit it to my driving style.  So
as a result, I usually wind up downloading a bunch of setups, and settling on
one that "doesn't suck so bad".  Meaning, it's the best out of what I've found
and I can lap without crashing all the time.  Then I tend to use that setup all
the time at that track.  I simply change the amount of fuel for the length of
the race.  If I come across another that's a bit better, that one becomes my
preferred setup.  That only becomes a problem when I have to start over(like
now), because I never have to 'load' a setup.   So now with all my setups gone
I have to start looking all over again, and I don't remember what setups I was
using at which track. :-(

Eldred
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Eldre

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Eldre » Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:08:18



>"EldredP" wrote...
>> > <snip>
>> Plan?  *What* plan?  Stay out of trouble, survive to the
>> finish.  That's about IT.

>Those aren't plans, those are ideas/goals. Plans are what you are going to
>do to acchieve the above.

>> I've never planned anything else - yellow flags usually
>> mean that fuel strategy is moot.  I'm not fast enough to
>> actually contend for the lead.  So yeah, I just race the
>> guys around me.  I'd be curious to know what you think I
>> *should* be doing...

>Fuel and tyre strategy are not mute. You need to know what your fuel and
>tyre windows are. Knowing when you're in your window can make all the
>difference if there's a late green stint in the race (as there often is).
>It's also important to know how your tyres wear: in stages, gradually or
>quickly at the beginning an less  afterwards and how hard you can push and
>still get reasonable mileage out of them.

>Even if there's a caution every 5 laps at some point in a race, you can use
>the above knowledge to your advantage. For example: you have a tendency to
>qualify lower than you can actually run in the race. If you're at a track
>where, after the initial stick is gone, the tyres stay reasonably constant
>you can use a caution for track position. By the time the top 6 have gone
>around you the other's tyres will have lost their edge and you're where you
>need to be in the race. In a succession of cautions you can also skip
>pitting at one one to have a clear pit at the next, etc...

>The bottom line is you have to be thinking about what you need to do to be
>where you need to be at the end of the race all the time. If you
>indescriminately race those around you, you end up hurting your own effort.
>You have to continually evaluate whether taking or defending the position
>_now_ is worth it in de grander scheme of the race.

Then I guess we just call it different things.  I don't think of it as a
"plan".  I consider a plan something you work out beforehand.  I've delayed
pitstops during a yellow for two reasons.  One, to get a clear pit as you
mentioned.  Two, to try to lead *a* lap.  My knowledge of my own lack of speed
means that I'm not really concerned with track position.  I usually come into
the pits on *every* yellow flag.  I don't think I've ever had a situation where
I needed a pitstop that never came(as in too many green flag laps).  I've also
made a pitstop(during yellow) for the sole purpose of dropping back in the
field.  That way I don't have to keep from being run over as the fast guys pass
me again(which I know they will).
I've also made decisions on whether to let another driver pass depending on the
situation.  Near the beginning of the race, or if he's MUCH faster, I'll roll
over without a fight.  If it's late in the race, or he's *marginally* faster,
I'll usually make him work harder for the spot.  I've also had times where I
was stuck behind a slower car, but couldn't get a run to make a move.  In
situations like that I've let a following driver pass in the hopes that a) I
can sneak by when he moves on the other car b)they take each other out.
So it appears that I *do* plan(using your terminology).  But since those
decisions are made 'on the fly', I disagree that it's a PLAN.  Semantics, I
guess...

Eldred
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Jan Verschuere

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Jan Verschuere » Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:05:03

Perhaps I was not clear, I do think one should work it out beforehand. "If
it goes green this is how I'm going to run my race." -Also, you should have
certain "canned responses" to situations worked out ahead of time.

At Kansas, e.g., I decided I would run 55 lap stints and start out at about
31.5s. This turned out to be slightly optimistic as the car degraded more on
the fast setup than my open setup, but at least I had something base my
actions on in the race. I was never in doubt about what to do next.

Big mistake, track position is everything. If you consistently put yourself
at the back of the field, behind slower (yes, there is such a thing as
slower than you! <vwg>) and banged up cars you're going to get more than
your fair share of misfortune.

For one you're putting yourself in danger of getting lapped easily. Frequent
yellows means lots of people on the lead lap and in view of most groups of
racers inability to get the field closed up to take the green you're giving
up half a lap at most places being at the tail end.

Second, being at the back means you're going to come across every
wrecked/crippled/rejoining car as you make your way to the yellow.

Sometimes there's just no need. 1/2 a green lap + 4 laps of yellow don't put
a lot of wear on a set of tyres.

Hehehe... I was waiting for one at Kansas, but like BP says: "If you're
waiting for a caution, you stand a good chance of becoming the caution." ;-)

What's the problem with that? -The faster guy has to get around safely. As
long as you don't intentionally make this hard for him, it's time gained and
you stand less chance of dropping off the lead lap. You might surprise
yourself about how little you actually retrograde on a longer run.

Yes, I've noticed that. There's some value either way off course, but,
generally, if a fairly long green stint is on the cards (and one does
develop a feel for that), I think it's best to let the slightly faster one
go as well. Check it... the draft will help you keep up at most places. In
fact you might be able to take it slightly easier through the turns, saving
those all important tyres. Once the two of you have picked off the "chomping
at the bit" corpses which usually litter the latter stages of a green stint,
you lean on your ride a little harder and blow straight by your benefactor.
<g>

No you're right, if you don't have something worked out beforehand which you
take into account when deciding on a course of action on track, it's not
"planning", it's "reacting".

Jan.
=---

mcewe

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by mcewe » Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:45:48

What if your plan is to have indescriminate fun dicing with other
cars?  Won't all that strategy get in the way?   ;)

Eldre

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Eldre » Fri, 10 Oct 2003 01:38:33

Ok, I do that more in GPL races.  I know a fully fuelled car will run laptimes
of xx seconds, and I can accept that.  Most times, I choose not to make a fuel
stop mid race.  I'm not that much faster on a lower fuel setup, and my laptimes
stay pretty constant throughout a fuel run.  I'm sure that says something about
my driving as well. <g>

I know, but I consider that an better alternative to being run over by the
faster cars as they barge past to take their 'rightful' place at the front of
the order.  I've lost count of how many times I've been punted by a faster
driver who's upset that I *dare* be in front of him at ANY time...

What sense does it make to be at the front of the field after a yellow when I
know I'm 2 seconds per lap slower than everyone behind me?  That's just an
aggravation that just doesn't make any sense to endure.  That's also why I
prefer realistic damage and race length in GPL.  If someone effs up in GPL,
they're out.  With shift-r or yellow flags available, they can repair(or close
up under yellow) and barge past me again.  I've had races in GPL leagues where
the same car crashed, reset, passed me again, crashed again, rinse - repeat...
All while I never put a wheel off anywhere.  That's not really my idea of
fun...
Which reminds me - I need to host a full-length race soon. :-)

Yeah, I know - but I'm going to be in the back anyway.  Why not just START
there, and lower the chances of being run over?

See above - it's not always for wire wear...

Eldred
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Jan Verschuere

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Jan Verschuere » Fri, 10 Oct 2003 02:19:57

You eat the wall when the driver with the plan loses his temper.

Jan.
=---

Dave Henri

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Dave Henri » Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:06:51



  You guys all sound like freekin' insurance salesmen.  Gotta have a plan,
gotta have a goal....  naw...I wake up, eat, work, play sleep.  repeat as
necessary.  Plans???  Not this cowboy.

dave henrie

Jan Verschuere

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Jan Verschuere » Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:14:09

That's fine... as long as I don't have to race you. ;-)

Jan.
=---

Eldre

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Eldre » Fri, 10 Oct 2003 06:53:37



>"mcewena" wrote...
>> > <snip>
>> What if your plan is to have indescriminate fun dicing
>> with other cars?  Won't all that strategy get in the
>> way?   ;)

>You eat the wall when the driver with the plan loses his temper.

Are you condoning punting drivers who are in your way?

Eldred
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Jan Verschuere

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Jan Verschuere » Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:16:35

I was ribbing Art, co-author of some of the most exciting and rewarding
on-track battles I've had online, but, yes, I do condone punting to a
certain extend.

Internet conditions are such, even between good connections, there is no way
to let someone know you're not really happy about them racing you in a
controlled way (the equivalent of chatting "move over"), so I wouldn't
recommend it in a battle for position, nor condone a bump and run on the
last lap, but, if pushed to extremes, I will use the chrome horn and I
wouldn't condemn anyone else doing so either.

Example? -I'm in a Martinsville race. Somehow a total noob, who doesn't have
clue as to what he is doing has gained access to the race through normal
channels (i.e. he lied about his ability). He has been singlehandedly
responsible for 8 out of 10 cautions so far and is now 9 laps down to the
leader. On this last caution, he's mashed my car up good and I've had to
make repeated stops to get a semblance of repair. We're on 1 to go and the
lap car ahead of me leisurely drives out of pitlane. I chat "One to go
Dennis, get a f***ing move on!!" (in Dutch). Dennis makes an effort, but I
restart over 1/2 lap down. Dennis also senses I'm not feeling friendly
towards him right now and gives me a wide berth. I'm ok, I can run with the
leaders, they won't get me. Or will they? -Here's blunder boy on -9L and
he's <bleep>ing racing me. Cuts me up once, twice, trice... "here comes the
leader". This f***er has got to move now!! -He pinches me down going into 1
again, so I nail the throttle and punt the idiot into the backstretch pits.

Am I proud of that? -No, but it needed to be done. I'm racing to stay on the
lead lap and preserve my chances of winning that race (ended up 3rd, first
lappped car was 9th). I'm also trying to mount a Championship challenge. I
have nothing against people not being quite up to speed or having
inexperienced drivers in the mix, but someone on -9L just doesn't mess with
lead lap cars (or anyone less laps down than himself, actually). It's all
about showing respect to one's fellow competitors. If one doesn't, I can
understand those who have something at stake resorting to desperate
measures.

Jan.
=---

Eldre

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Eldre » Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:15:32



>Am I proud of that? -No, but it needed to be done. I'm racing to stay on the
>lead lap and preserve my chances of winning that race (ended up 3rd, first
>lappped car was 9th). I'm also trying to mount a Championship challenge. I
>have nothing against people not being quite up to speed or having
>inexperienced drivers in the mix, but someone on -9L just doesn't mess with
>lead lap cars (or anyone less laps down than himself, actually). It's all
>about showing respect to one's fellow competitors. If one doesn't, I can
>understand those who have something at stake resorting to desperate
>measures.

Ok, given that situation I'm inclined to take your side.  But the original
discussion was about faster drivers stuck behind someone who was 'racing
indiscriminately' punting said driver.  Meaning that the driver ahead wasn't
'planning' his race, he just raced with whoever he was close to at the time.
There was no mention about the slower driver being multiple laps down.  I(as
well as others, maybe) was thinking about a driver on the same lap who happened
to be in front because of pitstops.  Say a driver who'll probably finish 9th
comes out in front of a guy who's podium-capable.  At that point in time
they're racing for position.  Should the first driver just roll over so the
other guy can be on his merry way?  Even though I've done it(basically to keep
from being the puntee), I don't agree with it.

Eldred
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Dave Henri

RASCAR:KANSAS REDUX - Congrats Ginger

by Dave Henri » Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:14:27

It's all about showing respect to one's

   So...:)......did he PLAN on being 9 laps down?

dave(being a very bad bad boy)henrie


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