rec.autos.simulators

That probably is the main problem with GTR for most of us, yes.

/andreas

--
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

/andreas

--
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Two separate secret codes to be typed in, the aforementioned ***
installed on my computer, and STILL I'm required to have the CD in the
drive to play.  Wow, could you make it a little more inconvenient please?

Don McCorkle

This is the fifth computer that I have built. Every other game works just
fine. Controller issues aside, from what I can tell, GTR is an arcade game,
not a simulator. Back to GPL.
Just maybe, you are a wise ass brit ***er.

You say that as if you consider it a bad thing ? ;)

/andreas

--
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Ouch! gosh that hurt!

My, my, your parents must be so proud?

And if you really must resort to foul language as an alternative to
reasoned argument, then at least try to get your prose correct. If you
insist on using English (British) terms such as ***er, then you should
also use "arse" rather than ass (which is an American term).

*Peter* -  http://www.racesimcentral.net/

You are the one who took the first swipe at me. So, kiss my arse.

So, no offense intended, it appears that you have a systems problem of
some sort.  GTR is well worth sorting it out.  I've spent many hours
running GPL but I can't run it any more, the errors in the physics
drive me nuts.  Unrealistic response to setup changes (particularly the
Lotus), unrealistic responses to too rapid control inputs, fast setups
that are unrealistically low etc. etc.  If you run GTR cars too low,
they bottom out and unload the tires over bumps.  They even slow down
due to the drag.  Responses to setup changes are sensitive and
realistic.  Feed the wheel in too fast and you'll jerk one end or the
other loose.

If you've only tried the old GTR demo, maybe that's the problem.  You
could try posting your problem here:

http://forum.rscnet.org/forumdisplay.php?s=690a4df5b3fb82bec81d85a620...

It's a large and active forum.

                              Bob

And there was me, thinking that I was giving you some constructive
advice?

Hardly anyone else in the sim community is having the same problems you
are, and yet you slate GTR in the same breath that you state you have
just built the pc.

It is obvious that you have some sort of hardware or set-up problem.

It is also obvious that there are no major issues with GTR.

When you calm down, take a minute to look at the situation and work it
all out for yourself.

I wouldn't make that claim. The cars in GTR are still too spin
prone, not as bad in version 1.0 (German version), but it's
still not quite right in version 1.5.

Getting good lap times with GTR seems too dependent on force
feedback. The force feedback is good, as it diminishes as you
approach the limits on the front tires, but with GPL, the force
feedback isn't as important, and you can get good lap times
without it (one joystick player has a GPLRank of -80).

It's difficult to drift the cars in GTR, but easy to do in
GPL and GTLegends.

Trying to induce understeer by pegging the front tires inwards doesn't
seem to work much at all in GTR, less than real life, while GPL
maybe a bit more than real life, but I've never driven a 67 F1 car
on the bias-ply tires with huge slip angles used in those days.

In my opinion, as a simulation game, GPL has better physics, because
you can run the cars closer to the limits and even exceed the limits
a bit and still maintain control.

Bottom line for me in a racing game, is being able to sense the limits
instead of memorizing them. GTR takes care of the steering inputs
with force feedback, but there's no real sense of what's going on
with throttle inputs.

My belief is that's a modern tires/setup issue.  I don't have the
problem.

"with GPL, the force
feedback isn't as important, and you can get good lap times
without it (one joystick player has a GPLRank of -80). "

And that's definitely a GPL physics problem.  Replays of those alien
laps show clearly the driver is slamming the steering side to side
rapidly.  In a real car (or in GTR), you can't do that without breaking
one end or the other loose.

"It's difficult to drift the cars in GTR, but easy to do in
GPL and GTLegends."

Definitely real, not a problem.  Modern tires and downforce.

"In my opinion, as a simulation game, GPL has better physics, because
you can run the cars closer to the limits and even exceed the limits
a bit and still maintain control."

Also realistic.  Carroll Smith quote:  "The one thing that's changed is
that the gap between I've got it and it's got me has narrowed
considerably.

If you like GPL's feel that's fine.  But it isn't "better physics".

Probably based on the 1.0 version of GTR, a professional race driver
tried the game and made the comment that it was more realistic with
some of the assists turned on. I assume this was in reference to the
car being so spin prone.

I don't know if the problem is tire, differential, or momentum modeling
in GTR that is the issue, but the issue is that almost every low speed
spin results in the car facing backwards, as opposed to real life where
ending up sideways occurs just as much, if not more than backwards.

In real life, you can take off spinning both tires, and it's reasonably
easy to keep the car going forwards. Note that F1 cars have a much higher
power to weight ratio, have no traction control at the start of a race,
and it's not an issue for them. However, I haven't been able to duplicate
this with GTR, probably an issue with the GTR differential model letting
one tire spin and not both.

There's a Top Gear video where Tiff drives a 4 year old Ferrari formula
1 car (a Ferrari F50 is also tested in this save vided), and even in his
first time in the F1, he lost the rear and and recovered quite a few times
in the video. He was able to drift the car fairly well at low speeds, at
high speeds, the downforce is setup to make the cars more neutral (less
oversteer reaction), because of all the power it takes to keep the cars
moving at high speed with all the induced drag from the downforce.

If you want controlled slides in GTR here's a way to do it (probably
not the ultimate, but good ebough for demonstration purposes).  Use
Dunlops (the others will heat up and lose too much traction.  Springs,
shocks, and bars reasonably balanced.  Max neg camber on front, small
negative camber on rear.  Hard compounds.  Diff max power, min coast.
Have a ball.  You'll wind up sideways as well as backwards.  Of course,
it's not a fast setup.  An underappreciated quality of excellent
drivers is that they can drive fast setups that punish mistakes _right
now_.  It's especially true in NASCAR.  One big reason the guys at the
back of the pack are slow is that they can't drive a faster setup.

"In real life, you can take off spinning both tires, and it's
reasonably
easy to keep the car going forwards. "

You can make real pretty twin tire marks with the above setup.

"There's a Top Gear video where Tiff drives a 4 year old Ferrari
formula
1 car (a Ferrari F50 is also tested in this save vided), and even in
his
first time in the F1, he lost the rear and and recovered quite a few
times
in the video. He was able to drift the car fairly well at low
speeds..."

Tiff's lurid slides on Top Gear are a running theme (or a running
joke?).  It's especially a hoot when he's supposed to be driving fast
on a track.  Sideways ain't fast, just entertaining TV.  I would
imagine they mess around with setup, tire pressures, etc. to put on a
show.

If you enjoy GPL, fine.  But to say it has better physics than GTR is
silly.  The relative responses to setup changes and control inputs are
concrete proof.  There's also logic.   Do you not think the guys who
did GTR are smart?  Do you think they didn't bother to analyze GPLs
physics for strengths and weaknesses and incorporate the former and
reduce the latter?  Do you think they didn't use increased CPU/video
card processing power and technical information from GT race teams to
do it better?

Ahem, if you have enough machine for it...  I love the damn game, bus
SHeesh...

Everything I have read and or found turned off, p4 2.4ghz machine (early via
board) geforce6600gt, I get sub 20 fps with the 20 car fields (dips to 1
when scoreboard is shown some races and not the next...)  BTW I am talking
about now, when doing the offline CUP challenges.  rFactor, I get over 50
fps stock settings upon install with almost as many cars, and nascar and GPL
are everything turned up, 1024x768 no aa, I get over 60.  I just dont get
why it is such a gfx hog, nor why  I cannot tune it down enough to make it
drivable?