rec.autos.simulators

I looked primarily at 3 wheels: MS FF, Logitech FF, and the TM GT Force.

Logitech FF = I wanted to buy this wheel, however after looking at the
peddles at Best Buy I was turned off. Everything else about this wheel is
great. The buttons and butterfly shifters are perfectly placed. What a shame
the peddles are poorly designed. I would assume that if you mostly play
NASCAR, the peddles may be OK since not as much emphasis is placed on the
peddles.

TM GT Force = I bought a TM GT Force wheel about a week ago. I read that an
updated version of this wheel has recently been produced The wheel I bought
was not one of these. The TM wheel had excellent fit and finish. The
buttons, butterflies, and peddles were very good. The problem with this
wheel was that it did not function. When I first turned the wheel on, crazy
noises came from the unit. After 20-30 minutes of playing around, I was
satisfied that it was not going to work. I attempted to call tech support,
however I was not in the mood to wait on hold for more than 15 minutes. The
wheel went back to the store.

MS FF = After the TM wheel, I bought the MS unit. Overall I am happy with
the wheel. I have used the wheel successfully with GPL, NASCAR 1999, F1RS,
Monster Truck 2, and MS Cart Racing. Compared to my old GP1, the MS wheel
takes a while to get used to using. There are a lot of calibration/software
adjustments I have not played with to really dial it in. The steering is
very precise and consistent. You can certainly feel the FF mechanical
internals, however they have a solid, acceptable feel about them. I have a
few complaints about the wheel. It would be nice to be a USB unit, however
it is OK since I have a USB joystick. The button placement is only OK.
Neither the buttons on the front or levers on the back are ideally
positioned for constant shifting as in GPL. The quick back-and-forth
steering on some GPL and F1RS circuits is not as good as with my non-FF GP1
wheel. When I play F1RS, the sound is messed-up if the FF is on. If anyone
knows how to fix this please let me know.

After playing some games with and without FF, I am not convinced that FF
really adds that much to the racing experience. There is such an abrupt
off/on when you go from the perfectly smooth track to a curb or on the
grass. Maybe if the track had a little rubble feel all the time, it would
feel more real. Looking back, maybe I should have bought a good non-FF
wheel.

Billybob

Now, though I AM pissed at TM (above), their FF wheel does look interesting.
What are they supposedly doing to the newer wheel that is different than
what is sold now? And will it hold up to a lot of FF usage? Judging that the
pedals look the same as my NASCAR Pro, I am afraid to get this one. But
again it looked interesting.

Now, while at CompUSA looking for the Logitech Wheel (didn't stock it???), I
saw Interact has a new FF wheel called the V4 Force. It has METAL paddles, a
ton of buttons & hat, tiltable steering wheel (2 tilt adjustments), and even
when not in FF mode IS self centering (good for NON-FF games). But sadly it
is a DB15 connection, no USB. I wonder if anyone has tried this one? The
pedals look ok too.

The MS FF Wheel has me in a quandary. I have heard some love it, and others
hate it. Also I have read reviews that say it has a very poor center feel.
Anyone care to comment on that? Is it software fixable? Is it self centering
in NON-FF games or is it a limp XXXX? And how are the pedals on it??? And is
the steering input vague, or nice and precise????

And lastly, I have heard one of the great things about the Logitech over the
MS (and Saitech as it uses the same system) is that the Logitech uses cables
and whatever, while the MS is gears, and so is more sturdy. Any comments on
the difference between the two systems??? I just want a wheel with feel
(cause that is the input I NEED when I really race), yet also some
resistance, and a good precise feel.

(IF ONLY the pedals on the Logitech were better . . . . . )

calibration/software

I previously had a GP1 wheel and bought the MS FF about a month ago. I use
it in GPL, Viper, NR99 and Monster Truck Madness 2 (and soon to be used with
my old GP2). I don't know where you read about the centering on this wheel
but I find the centering to be superb, no dead band whatsoever and to be one
it's strong points. The strength of the electronic spring for centering is
adjustable and does work in non-FF games such as GPL, NR99 and GP2. This is
a much better unit than the GP1 but it did take some getting used to going
from wheel mounted throttle and brake to pedals. The pedals are the main
reason I bought this unit. I did the research and read the reviews on the
other wheels such as the V4, Logitech, Act Labs, Thrustmaster, and others. I
went to the stores, looked at the units and queried the sales people on
customer comments. They all fell short for various reasons. The Logitech in
particular is being blasted for its poor pedal design with it's extremely
short throw. One poster here said that it's impossible to be competitive in
GPL. The Thrustmaster looked interesting but again I read too many posts
from those who returned it for various reasons.
One major benefit is the digital design of the unit. The calibration
drifting and jumping around that I experienced with the GP1 is now
completely stable. This includes the infamous arm jittering in GPL. If you
read the extremely long thread here on this issue awhile ago then you know
that the only solution is to go with a digital wheel or digital input at the
computer (such as a dedicated digital game port). If you've got the $$$ then
go with a wheel from TSW or ECC and get a digital game port. This could set
you back about $350 minimum though.
For the under $200 category, the MS FF is a great choice and there is not
much to complain about. One thing, is the lightness of the pedal base. It
has a tendency to slide a little on low pile carpet.

Doug

Although I haven't heard the "official" report, it appears that the
initial release of the TM Force wheels where not manufactured to "spec".
This caused them to not function properly.  It would seem that whom ever
oversaw the production in their offshore plant assumed they knew more
about the design than the designers.  

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

http://st4.yahoo.com/saitekusa/saitr4forwhe.html

For those who might be a bit afraid of a refurbished item, remember,
whatever could initially go wrong probably already HAS gone wrong, and
not only has it been repaired, it's been RE-tested and probably
scrutinized a little extra by the quality control people, so I never
hesitate to take advantage of a refurbished bargain like this.  For
the price of a TM NASCAR Pro wheel, you get a Saitek's optical/digital
potentiometer-free system WITH a very decent implementation of Force
Feedback (and very good pedals, too).

Drop me a line if you take advantage of the refurbished offer -- I'd
like to hear someone else's impressions.

-- John Bodn
   Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine On-Line
   http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/