rec.autos.simulators

<<I'm looking forward to polite disagreement.>>

I think the "dream sequence" scenario, describing playing CPR as
transporting the player to a state of ecstatically profound "racing
environment" verisimilitude, was inevitably destined to draw humorous
parodies -- and there's no doubt the humor around these parts tends to
be heavy-handed. I think that the point being made, however unsubtly,
was an excellent one, and the core of the problem: many people's
experience of CPR is the polar opposite of the dream state described.
CPR is so herky-jerky and unrealistic in areas like AI and framerate
that the very essence of enjoying a sim -- that moment known in drama as
"willing suspension of disbelief" -- is never achieved. It's difficult
to immerse oneself in a simulation that constantly reminds the player,
by its very inability to "simulate" a realistic experience, that you are
sitting in front of a high-priced TV monitor, and not at the wheel of a
REALLY high-priced racing car...

Whether the vehemence of the arguments is over the top or not, the very
simple question remains unanswered: Is CPR going to be fixed in this
version? If not, one can only assume that the comments solicited a month
ago by Mr. Lester were for some other purpose -- they certainly weren't
for the purpose of satisfying the majority of voices in this NG who
STILL don't think CPR works as advertised. The only other purpose that
seems a reasonable deduction is that MS plans on releasing a version 2
of CPR, and they expect people to pay for the game all over again,
rather than fixing the one they've already sold. If this is the case,
that doesn't seem fair, does it? If it isn't the case, Microsoft has had
every opportunity to say so -- but they have said nothing.

As politely as I can, let me ask: What do YOU make of this situation?

Bart Brown

Randy -- See my reply elsewhere in this thread. I don't disagree with
you and Jim Getzen about the "quality" of the reply you both complained
of, but I certainly support the essence of it -- and I must admit, I
found its ironic twist of the original post quite amusing.

That, however, is just window dressing -- the central question is still
unanswered, and I'm pretty sure it will remain so. "Corporate humility"
ranks right up there with "military intelligence" in the Top Five
Oxymorons...

Regards

Bart Brown

Well, I wrote the "dream sequence" and knew it would draw flames.  I
particularly liked the response, where the writer parodied my posting with
his decidedly less favorable impression of CPR.  That was an intelligent and
constructive argument to my sunny painting of CPR.

 -- and there's no doubt the humor around these parts tends to

If you've been around the newsgroups any amount of time you've developed a
thick skin.  I certainly don't condone such juvenile postings, instead I
can't help but imagine the poor slob as some maladjusted Bill Gates
want-a-be who's best chance at personal happiness is a skin magazine, an
empty john and a bar of soap.  Gotta pitty the poor fella, really.

I can certainly feel for people with this problem.  I ran out and bought MS
Flight Simulator for Win95 when it came out and the best I could muster with
my otherwise capable machine was 7 frames/sec.  The game was utterly
unplayable and sat on my shelf for monthes.  I never got any help from MS
and instead stumbled upon the solution while fiddiling with my video card
settings.

On the other hand, MS Cart runs at about 25fps on my machine with slowdowns
into the mid-***s.  This is about the going rate for games on my machine
(ie. Quake, Monster Truck Madness, GP2) and I am very happy with it.  By the
way, I have a P200mmx with a Matrox Millenium and a 3Dfx card.

The AI absolutely destroys the single player game in my opinion.  I have
only played one other racer with worse AI (in terms of unnecessary
roughness) and that was Andretti Racing on the Playstation.  I'll never
forget my first pit stop in Andretti.  I was accelerating hard out of the
pits to merge into traffic when one of the AI dropped down from high on the
oval to smash me into the grass.  I was immediately reminded of this when,
as I slowed for a corner in CPR, the AI slammed into the back of me then
proceeded to push me sideways for 100 feet till I spun off into the wall.
At least I was racing Nascar with Andretti.....not a delicate open wheel
cart!  The patch has improved the AI but they still like to bump into the
back of you and make no attempt to miss you if you slide or spin.

I find that CPR immersises me more than any other racer....when matching up
against another person over the net.  With all the graphics on (remember I
have no framerate problems) I would put it in the same level as F1RS and
TOCA.   That was the feeling I was trying to convey with the so called
"dream sequence."

I fear not....but I can hope can't I.  I am worried that MS will decide to
put the bug fixes into the next release with some "new features" and charge
another $40 for the package.  I would be so much happier if they would at
least fix the online *** bugs.  It is not uncommon to host an online race
where after the race you find you have 2 winners because somehow the
computer started to seperate concurrent races.  It is not uncommon to lose a
racer or two as you switch from the multiplayer chat page to the actual
race.

If not, one can only assume that the comments solicited a month

You'd be hard pressed to find any program that worked as advertised.  For
example, anyone want to talk about the "great" modem races they've had in
GP2?

Can you say MS Flight Simulator '98.

I am amazed anyone from MS said anything.  I am sure they were immediately
abomished by there supervisors and instructed never to make another post
identifying themselves to have any ties with MS.  You don't even see
comments from MS on their own newsgroups.

Right back atcha Randy....

Cheers!
John

Corolary view hmmm never heard that used to describe rude before;-0
Well just consider my thinking your description an excuse my corolary view
;-)
corolary:  1- a proposition that follows from one already proved.
               2- a normal result
If this is the word  you meant to use then you must mean #2 and are you
from New York? Mike

On 1 Feb 1998 02:42:54 GMT, "Mikes Designs"

Cheers!
John

The funny thing is that in D3D, I have more problems in jerkiness with
Ubisoft's F1 than I do with CPR.  I generally just hotlap and race on
the Zone with CPR, and find it to be quite fun for that.

Well, after last night's pressure-keg at Elkhart I beg to differ. I
found someone with roughly competitive times as me and going
nose-to-gearbox on the final lap was pretty darn exciting.  A lot of
my improved feelings about racing with CPR has to do with the new STB
drivers, the improved control and the fact that I'm finally developing
the light touch on gas & brake needed to get better speeds around the
circuits.

This is true, but its also true to one degree or another with pretty
much every racing sim.  I've given up looking for the perfect sim and
just learned to deal with whatever warts each one has.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blind to what's very, very wrong in CPR.
But I can also tell you that by putting in the same kind of work I did
into lowering lap times in F1RS, I actually found myself having a lot
of fun at the road/street courses (ovals right now are a sad joke in
this title :( )

Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com

Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com

 A lot of
   Hi Randy,
                  Are you saying the 1.32 drivers improved the control? I
was just wondering as I too have noticed better control.I wasn't sure what
to attribute it to though. I figured either I was getting more used to the
light touch on brake and gas as you describe. Or possibly better set ups.
Cya, Mike

I thought it was Toyota who made the Corollary?

--
Bruce
(at work)

"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)

There is a fundamental problem with CPR's braking, which that 10% of
brake travel amounts to 50% braking in the Pi telemetry.  I've braked
once or twice at around 60%, but basically anything over 50% and they
are locked up at any speed.  So the trick is to teach the brain that
its okay to get very little movement of the brake pedal and still get
sufficient threshhold braking.  So many other sims, including the Papy
ones, have taught us that we can mash our feet to the floor.  Grand
Prix 2 took it a step further and introduced lockups which still
allowed heavy initial braking but gave us threshhold braking
throughout brake pedal travel.  In reality, brake pedals don't move
much.  Carroll Smith said in his book that the ideal brake wouldn't
move at all, but just be pressure sensitive.  If I could put a VERY
heavy spring and a stopper on my T2 pedals that would only ALLOW 10%
brake travel at very high pressure, I'd have a pretty realistic
braking system under CPR.  But since I don't have that mechanical
setup, I just have to allow it to become mental, and my times have
dropped as I have discovered how to threshhold brake with very little
pedal travel.

The other aspect of 'improved control' actually is a tribute to the
training I got from F1RS.  F1RS' grip out of low speed corners is
pretty easy to lose if you get heavy-footed with the throttle.  The
act of working my Spa-Francorchamps times down to the low 1:50 range
also taught me a much greater sense of balance in turns and coming off
of corners.  Again, this is contrast to the fairly heavy acceleration
allowed under other sims.  I learned to threshhold brake better, show
more finesse on the gas, and be smoother on the steering.  The result
was that CPR courses which were previously too painful to drive
(Australia and Detroit, for instance) are now exhilarating, and the
sense of speed is much better than F1RS most of the time.  The
post-patch grip model is such that it requires you to develop a very
good feel for the limit of adhesion and drive it.  The car slides more
readily than it does in F1RS, but it also recovers easier (which,
happily enough, is exactly what Jacques Villeneuve wrote about in his
book when comparing the two types of vehicles).

The graphics make the game pleasurable enough to make the rest of the
sim worth exploring.  I can definitely understand how people who are
not getting a great frame rate or graphics detail level have no
inclination to spend time learning the model, and certainly the sim
has enough other warts that it makes sense to many to just ignore the
thing, at least until next version.

Randy

Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com

Diversity of opinion comes about _because_ of people posting contrary
views and discssing them, it's those people who cannot accept
another's opinion that cause the problems.

Cheers!
John

Rinse, lather, repeat.........

Thank you.

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