rec.autos.simulators

On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 11:27:44 -0500, David Gary

Steven Travers
Producer, SODA Off-Road Racing
Papyrus Design Group

Dear Mr. Travers,

I know this will be like swearing in the church but i'll have a go anyway.

I've been looking at the pics. of SODA on your site and i must say they
looked more "arcade'ish" than "sim'ish". I could not see any dashboard with
gauges or things like that. The pictures taken from the external-view
option showed a tacho (or was it a speedometer) in the lower left corner
(or something like that) and from the text displayed read something like
"4/9" etc. This reminds me pretty much of an arcade-game i once played. (
i'm NOT saying you guys stole it or something like that)
So a question comes to mind; Is SODA a SIM or an ARCADE game ??.

Before i put on my 2-layer nomex-dress, i would like to add this;

- It might be that these pictures/screenshots are taken while playing in
"arcade-mode", if the game does feature one.

- I'm living up here in Norway, so other info (i.e Sierra mags. etc.) is
hard to come by. I might have missed some vitale info. that you've told
others before.....

- Paintkit or not, i really don't give a hoop - it's the driving physics
that count!

--
Best regards,
Ed_ - Norway

"Early on, the cars were getting faster and faster.  And with
good reason:  everybody was cheating."   - Richard Petty

It's just that the dashboard isn't done yet. The shots you've probably
seen are just from the replay mode, from a "TV" camera angle. There
are several different driving views, including a***pit view, which
will have a textured dashboard with working gauges, etc.

Visit www.sierra.com/papyrus for info on SODA Off-Road Racing. The
text of the InterAction article is reproduced there as well.

SODA is very much a sim, with realistic driving physics, and extensive
garage setup options. Like NASCAR 2, there will also be an
easier-to-drive arcade mode that you can just jump into and go.

Steven Travers
Producer, SODA Off-Road Racing
Papyrus Design Group

I really think we, as consumers, need to stop asking and start
demanding! It amazing how
most of the guys that reply to these programers posts' are so stunned to
actually get
off their ass and say "this is what WE WANT" NOT "are you gona do this
are that". WE'RE there
ones who buy and play these games. If it werent for the customers these
guys wouldnt have a job.
Dont take this to personally Ed and Jim. You've given us utilities and
overall sheer quality in your
sims and we didnt have to demand squat from you guys. Instead
Congradulations! The fact of the matter is PAPY's quality programing of
sims is exactly why we demand things from these other *** companies.
They're just
not producing!!

SODA is being designed by a "***" *** house under Papy/Sierra
name. The coding of mip files
instead of polygons isnt that hard. If its a internet connection thing,
thats not that hard either.
Take MTM for instance! I dont care about "release" dates! All release
dates do is threaten the quality
and integrity of future sims. I'll wait several more months for a
quality sim with ALL the utilities and
car "dynamics" we have been given in the past instead of putting up with
unacceptable ***for several months
after.

We need to question *** companies competency when they make
statements like, "we didnt add that option due
to our schedule". Thats BS in my book. Im an Artist/Graphic Illustrator
and if I ever told my clients that I didnt add "this or that" to the
work I was commisioned to do for them because I had to get their money
quicker to pay the rent then I wouldnt have very many clients left!! Now
would I?!!!

BTW, Have you seen the screen shots of SODA. Their awfull. I know their
still needs to be alot of design, but they look like something created
for the c64! If they dont have time to code mips for a paintkit option,
what type of time are they gona devote to more important things like,
the actual game play, dynamics, control, etc.?!! Its humorous that some
of more serious simmers take these SIMs more serious than the
DEVELOPERS!!!

Well Steve Travers no personal insult towards you, but I dont care if
your boss needs to make his next Lexus
payment. I demand better or dont expect for me to put any money in your
pocket. To bad ole' Dave Kramer(sp?)
could'nt come over there and show you guys how to "code" something other
than truck models only the
Partridge family would drive!! Or hell quality for that matter!

The "Teamsters" will make a difference!!!

-DG-  =8>}

On Wed, 02 Apr 1997 23:51:54 -0500, David Gary

The scope of this project is not the same as something like NASCAR 2,
and everyone's just going to have to get past that. NASCAR 2 was able
to have a multi-million dollar budget because of very high sales
projections. SODA does not, could not, hope to sell as well as NASCAR
2, so it therefore could not be given a budget like NASCAR 2's. That's
just the way it is. It may not revolutionize the industry in terms of
graphics, but it's going to be a great sim with terrific playability
and long-term challenge, good graphics, and a track designer
application. I urge you all to try it this fall, and if you're
disappointed, then you have 30 days to return it. This isn't a
commissioned statue, and we can't sculpt one to each person's
specifications, Mr. Gary.

You seem to know all about the quality or lack of quality of this
title that is only half done. Pretty cool. You're prophetic.

Maybe you should wait until it's finished before you pass judgement. I
don't why, only because I guess that sounds like a somewhat logical
way of doing things.

If anyone has any suggestions to offer or questions to ask, instead of
insults, accusations, demands and wild assumptions, then please speak
up--I'd be glad to engage in discussions about our ongoing creative
effort.

Steven Travers
Producer, SODA Off-Road Racing
Papyrus Design Group

I'm not really concerned about a paint kit (it would be nice, maybe a
upgrade later on!) for SODA as long as the bugs, driving model, tracks,
I.E. things that count work and work well!
BTW is this going to be WIN95 native? If so I think I will cry!!

Resources are finite. If you are willing to pay a lot more for your sims
(which btw, I probably would but the mass market wouldn't) then it is
reasonable to expect them to get in extra programmers. But that's not
reality, is it?

Read Steven's response if you refuse to believe me ;-)

<yawn>

David Gary goes off topic to slag off GP2 - now that really IS original
;-)

Cheers,
Richard

Well, better start crying then...

Competency + efficiency = Quality.

Incompetency + "Pressured schedules" = Crappy software.

How did I derive at this conclusion, you ask Richard(by the way, may I
call you***)?
Simple, The things they are NOT offering have been done before?

Who?...I dont "refuse" to believe you. I am simply relating information
your mental capacities
are not aware of.

Before you take a nap, read a book on "supply and demand" so I dont have
to waste my time replying
to drivel.

No Richard, I wasnt insulting GP2 or you. Just letting anyone that reads
this post
know how you derive to your conclusions.

=8>}

AMF!

-DG-

I had a look at the screenshots of the track designer.  This looks
pretty cool!  We can fill up ALT.BINARIES.SIMULATORS.AUTOS with tracks!

One other thing: Is the resemblance of the wheels to the original Hot
Wheels cars strictly accidental?  Or is there going to be a loop the
loop in the game?  :)

Neil
--

Neil Yeatman          
Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

My REAL email address is:

Well Mr. Travers, When I am contracted to do work for a client. I am
therefore
entitled to do what the client asks of me. My experience and knowledge
of my
trade is vast and therefore I can apply "traditional" applications that
have been
accomplished before. You are creating software that does not include
"traditional"
utilities and applications. So it is your "opinion" that says there is
no "relevance"
in the comparison and therefore will only be taken by someone who agrees
with that opinion.

I must truly apologize Mr. Travers. After reading my own post I could
see how someone could arrive at the fact that it is "truly" applified.

The fact of the matter is, I do it for "the Boys", the guys that wana
have
the "dream" sim and that includes everything that has been acomplished
before and
new technologies as well.

I do believe that the "sculpture" that I ask for is also asked on a
world wide basis.
I should have started this discussion with the simple question, "How
much are you going
to charge for this game?" I would have therefore arrived at a conception
of what type
of quality and content we would be looking at when it is released. It is
obvious that
you are not on the budget scale of Papyrus, but one tends to "jump" to
conclusions
when their name is on the box. You have to understand that when you want
money
from someone that buy your product you open yourself for criticism. If
you ask the
market price for the same figure as the sims that offer more content in
their games
than provided by your company then you will be criticized.

Critisim is good in my book, because it gives you different viewpoints
and therefore
"streamlines" you technique in creating something for the vast "***"
population.

I based my interpretation of this game by the content it has already
shown and concluded
my "opinion" on the statements you had made on the lack of content this
game will offer.
As for the sarcasm, I question your ability as a representative of your
company.
I can only think that it is a "human" response to my questioning your
competency in my
previous post.

I apologize if I have "passed" judgment. You are correct, this game is
not
complete. Again my statements were due to what was already said. I
certainly
hope that my generalization of "release" pressure just woke up a few of
the people
that read these post as to what threatens the quality of "sims" to come.

I certainly hope you didnt take it as an insult. Like I said I should
have questioned
the "retail" price of this game. Well, what will it be? I only accused
what had been
said and from past experiences my assumptions werent to "wild"

I DO sincerly wish you luck on your project and hope it provides fun to
the people
who play it. That is if the price tag matches the quality.

=8>}

-DG-

You tell 'em Steven. What are you making this sim for his own personal use?
I think that is what he thinks!

I do have one question and it is about the trucks and the makes. Is there
going to been Fords,Chevys, Dodges, Toyotas, ETC.. If so will they have
each truck distinctive look and design (the new ford, and dodge bodies and
the old Chevy bodies) instead of the generic body design of say N2! Will
the physics of the different makes feel different? Cause most of the SODA
trucks are all different! you know some of the 4x4 SODA trucks have
straight(some dodges) axle front suspensions and that can effect the ride
and feel allot! Speaking of the 4x4's will they feel allot different than
the 2x4 trucks. I mean they should feel heavier(cause they are)  and they
shouldn't break the rear end loose as much as the 2x4's would. Is there
going to be a setup option that uses tread depth and design for various
tracks? I.E. a muddy course vs. a dry one requires different tires and
compounds. These are just some ideas I'm throwing out to you. Hope you can
use them!

Call me whatever you like. But take a tip - what you call someone
reflects a lot about you but nothing about the person you are calling ;-)

I really like the way that you hang back from flaming someone. Go on,
really let go sometime ;-)

"Supply and demand" is an oft misused/abused phrase these days :(. Whilst
it was applicable in the days when physical resources were hard to come
by, it has little obvious relevence in the modern consumer society where
factors such as intellectual resources, suppliers choosing what to
produce, demand heavily influenced by those same suppliers, etc make a
simple interpretaion of "supply and demand" meaninigless.

In any case, with racing sims, the "demand" is not for the ultra realism
and configurability that you or I may crave. Sad to say it, but it is for
a simple product that offers everything out of the box and allows the
casual racer to pretend that he is a Schumacher, Andretti or Earnhardt
with minimal practise.

Thankfully, Papy, GC & co are clearly sim racing fanatics themselves.
They therefore produce realistic driving models with lots of
configurability. Not because they consider this to be the best way to
meet "demand" and make large profits, but because they WANT to.

Selfish, inane criticisms will not influence them and, indeed, are only
likely to alienate them to the point that they ignore good suggestions.

Let's take a real world example. Sticking to the topic of the thread <g>,
let's make it whether to include a paintkit or not in SODA Off Road
Racing. Papy/Software Allies have to take the following factoers into
consideration:

(i) will it increase sales?
     - probably not since most purchasers will never paint their trucks

(ii) will it take real effort?
     - yes if they are to produce a commercial quality utility

(iii) do we have a good programmer (and testers)*** around doing
nothing or will we need to either employ extra people or extend
deadlines?
     - no small outfit will have someone*** around twiddling their
thumbs, so it will be one of the latter cases which means hard cash

(iv) can we afford to employ extra people or delay the release (and
therefore have to raise a loan etc to pay peoples' salaries)?
      - no way, unless we will get a LOT of extra revenue as the result
(see (i))

(v) as sim racing fanatics, do we think we should do this in anycase even
if it involves not drawing any salary for a month?
      - can't even attempt to answer that one myself as I know nothing
about Software Allies

So at the end of the day, an extra like a paintkit tends to be more of a
personal, altruistic choice by the developer rather than anything that is
driven by economics or market forces. Positive suggestions might help,
but flames will not help one iota :(

Being tactful might help. For instance, I put forward that the majority
of sim racers don't want an all singing, all dancing paintkit (as in N2
or ICR2WIN) but the ability for *someone*else* to produce alternative car
sets and then be able to import them. So how about the following
compromise - don't have a paintkit in the released product, but shortly
afterwards, provide an unsupported, "as is" utility for download that
would take a .bmp or .pcx file and convert it into the game's internal
format? This would provide 90% of the benefit for 10% of the cost and
meet 99% of the requirements. Could you live with that?

Cheers,
Richard

Why don't you add a track pack which enables you to race and create Mickey
Thompson stadium tracks?  Also simulate Glen Helen Raceway in Riverside
Ca., a track from the SODA Winter series?  By the way, since this is in a
newsgroup, if anyone comes upon this message and responds, send it through
email.

Christopher

-DG-