rec.autos.simulators

I didn't try Netscape, so I don't know if it worked or not.  And yes, I can
blame it on Sierra.  Actually, I can blame it on you if I like.  But since
you don't think it is the creator of the setups fault, there is probably no
way I can get you to take the blame.

MSIE and Win95 have been out a considerable time longer than N2.  Those
that come after must make sure that they work with what's out there.  Or
create something that replaces it, not trashes it.

: You are a beta tester.  You are not entitled to a life.  You are personally
: responsible for all the bugs in Nascar 1/2/3/4/5, not to mention world
: hunger.
:
: I could actually agree with your ' every piece of software ' logic, if we
: we talking about some obscure little disk util or something, but not a
: mainstream browser like MSIE 3.x, or if you were the only tester.    This
: should have been checked before the end user got to it.

Hey, these guys only have the title of a beta-tester. They do that
"testing" on their own time with their own equipment. Papy/Sierra gave
them nothing except "beta" software and big fat NDA to sign. The quality
assurance procedures should've got any blantant bugs like you mention.
You're assuming that the problem is strictly Internet Explorer... it may
not be. On the systems they tested it may have worked just fine, even with
IE installed. I don't know that for sure, but it's a possibility that IE
is not entirely the problem... maybe it's the VRML extension, or DirectX
drivers, or NetMeeting, or ComicChat, or etc. Could be any of those
add-ons for IE... who knows. My point is simply that it is entirely
possible for this to have slipped through the QA... AND that there is no
way that the "free beta-testers" could be held responsible at all. IMO,
David Sparks, Terry Adams, Brian Tate, and the rest of the N2 "free
beta-testing" gang did a helluva service for all of us.

bill

--
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Sky diving... take the dare...
--
------------------------------
Bill Pogue

Deep In The Heart Of The South

Netscape 3.x and MSIE 3.x came out about the same time.  I haven't
heard any reports of it.  Sure, you could blame it on Sierra.  But if
you really look at this intelligently, I think you'll at least see
what I'm talking about.

fact: netscape uses telecommunications in Windows95
fact: MSIE 3 does the same thing

so if they use the same files, how come one gets messed up and the
other doesn't?  

it sounds like MSIE is hogging something it doesn't like to "share"
with other apps.  I'm sure you could blame THAT on Sierra too.

It's not the NASCAR2 install that's eating your MSIE, it's the TEN
install routine that's full of bugs...Papyrus had assumed that all
was well (after all, it's been on-line for some time), and went ahead
and placed it in the sim. Since Papyrus can't jump in and fix it,
it'll be upto TEN to do something. In the meantime, if you have
AOL 3.0, Compu$erve 3.01, or MSN, then simply reinstall one of
these to restore your IP connection.  :)

Best Regards,

Marc J. Nelson
Sim Racing News

Gee, you mean it's just a title they have, not a job?  Duh....    Also,
sorry you missed my attempt at  humor.  Perhaps it was one of those " A & B
" converstaions?

I assume nothing.  You just somehow missed the mentions of it messing up
the AOL internet frontend as well.  

This is highly unlikely, unless they did a DOS install,  and I have yet to
see anyone say that the Win install    did not mess up their 3.x version of
IE.  Have you noted anyone saying so?

Well sorry, but I thought that the 'testers' were supposed to test the
product.  Even if they are doing it for free,  I just can't imagine that
the NDA only said that they couldn't tell us about it, but it also holds
them to their agreement to test it.  I would think that the primary job of
a BETA tester would be to try to crash the software, and tell how they did
it so that they could prevent it's happening again.  And of course to
report oh now the software interacts with the public in general.  And with
the MSIE bug, it didn't take any trying at all.

Here is my theory:  The beta guys / gals tested Nascar 2 in all it's glory.
 Drove the ***out of it, and found a whole slew of bugs.  Papy fixed the
' quick fix ' bugs, left the minor ones in so the product could ship.

Then someone else wrote an install program, and stuck it on the CD with
Nascar 2.  Then they shipped it to the disk producers, or whoever.  The
beta guys never got a chance to test the actual, shipped product before we
did.  So they got the new, install related bugs just like we did.

And if not, oh well, stuff happens.

Too bad the bugs they reported weren't corrected before shipment.

This is not to disagrre with the experts, or anything,  but I DID NOT
install TEN on my system. On either system, in fact.  So, how did the bug
bite me?  

This isn't a flame, I really want to know.

Ok, I will try, will probably won't get as close as you are.

Gee, it is my OS, so I should write it to work with your programs?  

Answer:  If yours were out there first, I should try to maintain
compatabilty as long as the NEWER product is hampered by compromises to the
older ones.  On the machine I am typing this, for example,I am wasting 8
megs of memory for 16 bit support in Win95.

They wrote the software, published the boundaries, and if the software
vendors don's stay within those boundaries, whose fault is it?  If MS
doesn't stay within them, sue their ass.

I will try to be intelligent, but it will be a chore.  :-)  

I don't have Netscape,  so I don't know.  I do not know what files are
written to my disk, or where they were written during the Win95 N2 install.
 Ten should not come into it, because I did not instal it.  It is my belief
that it installed a .DLL somewhere the wrote over a .DLL that IE used.
Everytime I install a new version of IE, it overwrites a bunch of stuff,
else there wouldn't be any point of upgrading, right?  
I see where you are coming from, but I just can't fault MS in this case.
They upgrade their software, like everyone else, and if another company's
install program replaces a file that is needed by one of the MS apps, at
least they should check to see if it is a newer version before doing so.

But then again, it could be something different.  Since no one has
officially stated why the install wipes out IE, we are left to speculate.

Is this a fact?  I haven't heard.

Fact:  After a Win95 install of N2, I cannot access the internet from my
Win95 AOL frontend software.
Fact:  ***jack works.

Why?  I don't know.

No, that one is definately your fault.

:-)

contributed:

The IP settings were never corrupted either. They all stayed there but
IE went by the wayside.

*------------------------------------------*
Life is a tragedy for those who feel,
and a comedy for those who think!
*------------------------------------------*
Joe II

well, that's a little bit more specific... AOL frontend software...
is that what the others have as well, or are they using Windows95 DUN?

LOL!

Simply reinstall the AOL "frontend", and all should be fine.  N2 doesn't
mess with anything it's not supposed to, it's the TEN software that makes
an attempt to re-do the IP scripts.

OK...Consder me as the first to confirm that the normal Win95 install
(without TEN) does not***with your IP scripts.  Plain-Jane Win95
install worked fine for me without a hitch...I tested it nearly a dozen
times (relesed version) after wipe-deleting the Sierra dir.  Only when I
reinstalled TEN (at any time) that my IP get goofed-up.  :(

That's pretty much all we did as beta-testers - tried to get N2 to crash.
Some of us even wrote our own dump routines, and Papyrus provided
us with several.  This way, all we had to do (in the event of a crash) is
submit the *.DMP file along with the condition that caused the crash,
as well as anything else we found.

Hmmm...What I do recall is Adam, Charlie, and the rest of the Papyrus
gang giving up their weekends and working late into the night.  I know,
because I called Mike Newhall at 2:30 am PST (just to leave a message
for him for the next morning) and he was there!!...WORKING!!

We all worked pretty hard to help Papy get a solid product out for you
guys.  I only see a few minor bugs, and one's which won't keep you from
having a good time.  :)

BTW, Papyrus could have actually gotten the game out a couple days
earlier, but due to the death of NASCAR pace car driver Elmo Langley,
they decided to hold it up just to put in their condolences to his family.
That showed real class, and my thanks go to the folks at Papyrus. Glad
to know that they enjoy this sport as much as I.  :)

Is your Hawaii name "Mushroom"?  ;)

Having a wonderful time at 'dega...wish you were here.  ;)

Best Regards,

Marc J. Nelson
Sim Racing News
Rendition Development Group
& Ex-Beta Tester for a very additicting sim!!  :)

I'm not sure why you're having this problem.  After I recieved the release
version of the game, I installed it (fresh) to see what kind of monkey-
business was going on (I had suspected TEN only 2-days prior).  After
installing the game nearly a dozen times, I found that there didn't seem
to be a problem with a normal Win95 install (less TEN).  I then went to
give TEN a try, and no sooner it was installed that it had its clutches
on my IP script...OUCH!!  I wipe-deleted the directory, reinstalled CIS,
and then tried it again with the same results.  Then the same procedure,
only without TEN and all was fine.

I talked to Papyrus yesterday, and they too had identified TEN as the
probable cause.  As soo as I know, I'll post here and on my site.  :)

Best Regards,

Marc J. Nelson
Sim Racing News

Kissing up, eh BIll? I'm still gonna whoop your tail in head-to-head. <g>

Besides, it wasn't free testing, we get a free copy of N2 out of it. At
least that's what I heard, even though I haven't seen mine yet. So don't
ask me any questions about what's in the manual, 'cause I haven't seen it
yet.

Dave (davids) Sparks
Late Night League
http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

It was not the TEN install routine that wiped out MSIE.  It was the
AutoUpdate program that wiped out MSIE.  AutoUpdate was Sierra's program,
and the AutoUpdate program has not been online for some time.

Best Regards,

Marc J. Nelson
Sim Racing News - USA
http://members.aol.com/simracing/