rec.autos.simulators

So I've been watching this ng for a few days, getting to grips with this new
genre, and I have to admit that as of yet, I do not own any full products, only
demos [Viper included], so if I may, I'd like to pose a few questions and
queries.

First of all, I'm a UK resident, so please bear this in mind with regard to some
of my questions/queries - many thanks.

Initially, I'm curious to know of the ras denizens games of choice - I know GPL
is _very_ popular, but I'm interested in knowing a 'top five/ten' of the games
available.  Preferably the sim rather than arcade element appeals to me.
Additionally, being a 'displaced' biker, I'd like peoples views on the current
offerings of bike sims - I've the EA Superbike demo, which, using my Gravis
Firebird 2, is quite hard work [anyone got a .FBD set up they'd be willing to
share?].

So, the main thrust of this thread.  Well, several actually.

1.  Gfx cards - the players choice now, as it stands, as well as the up and
coming offerings [i.e. Matrox G400 as a 'one to watch'].  I currently have a
Voodoo Banshee, which has served me well for the past several months, but now
I'm thinking it's time to move up.  I'd appreciate any comments on a) where to
buy at best price, and b) what is the current favourite with players?  Please
remember I'm UK based, so US sites means shipping and exchange rates, etc.

2.  FF wheels and of course, pedals.  I've seen various threads on the issue,
but nowhere where there is a comparison.  I've visited several racing sim sites
but none had a comparison test.  Does anyone do such a test even?  Again, I'm
looking for a best price within the UK.
    I'm angling towards the Logitech FF wheel, but from the threads I've read,
the pedals aren't that good - are there any good pedals available separately,
and if so, what are they?

3.  UK websites for racing sims - would anyone be willing to offer a few to
visit?

Well, rather long I admit, but thanks for bearing with me.  Thanks for your time
over this gentlemen and I hope some day to be simming with the rest of you.

Once again, many thanks.

--
Detonate

you will find countless opinions on all of your topics. allow me to tackle
the one that i am most familiar with:

1. GPL - you already know about this one. it has made THIS NASCAR fan put
NASCAR on hold since it came out. all others should be embarrassed.
2. viper racing - another venture in the great future.
3. NASCAR2 - as bad as GPL makes this look by comparison, it still is
excellent. the sound quality would have to be considered poor now, but it
still has the look and feel of a first-rate sim.
4. SBK - poor sales - excellent sim.
5. Grand Prix 2 - barely still available, but still the best of the "modern"
F1 sims. you will get lots of arguements about this one, almost exclusively
from fans of a beverage coaster known as F1 Racing Simulation. look for
Grand Prix 3 by autumn.
6. SODA off-road racing - sure, this is a small segment release, but it is
hard to find someone who doesn't enjoy this as a decent distraction from the
"serious" sims. a major plus is the addition of a track editor.

.

http://www.force-1.com/

Check out the site above for reviews of all the major FF wheels and a good
forum for discussion of all things force feedback.

I've had the WFF for over 6 months and am still very happy with it. I
stiffened up the pedal springs a bit which helped with, what I felt,  was
over sensitivity in the pedals. Recently I wired my CH pedals up to the
Logitech wheel and now have the perfect <g> force feedback rig.

don

Hmmm...I thought they were a prerequisite here?

Ben

Might try www.blitzsports.com/racing/TOCA2 for a peek at a British series.

Happy Motoring

http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/sims/

As for non-Force Feedback wheels, I'm also a big fan of the ACT Labs
RS wheel (I haven't tried out the FF model yet).  The Mad Catz
Andretti Racing Wheel is VERY sweet (it features digital input which
improves frame rates), and other reports here indicate a favorable
response from others, too.  The Thrustmaster Super Sport wheel is a
VERY nice design -- I'd highly recommend this over Thrustmaster's
NASCAR Pro (A.K.A. the Grand Prix or F1 wheel in europe, I believe);
the only downside is no shifter (you get paddles instead), but it
seems to be TM's best effort to date.  

When it comes to sims themselves, I'd recommend the following as my
own personal hall of fame (based on what's currently available in
stores):

1.  Viper Racing:  Has FF, a great physics model, a decent career
ladder, contemporary sports car theme is easy to relate to.

2.  Grand Prix Legends:  THE most realistic sim on the market --
definitely THE one to have if you're interested in open-wheeled,
historic F1 racing; may be a tad too difficult for some.  Also, no FF
yet.  

3.  Sports Car GT:  Very decent physics model (with all patches and
hacks installed), multitude of contemporary sports cars to choose
from, tons of replayability.  Maybe not the most realistic sim from a
physics modeling standpoint, but it does a bang-up job of simulating
the race experience and the racing environment.  Does support FF, but
the effects are not quite as spectacular as Viper Racing.  

I can't comment on graphics cards -- I'm just now moving UP to a
Banshee! <G>  I would recommend looking into the PDPI L4 game card if
you're a serious gamer, but if you're interested in FF, then the PDPI
card probably won't work for you.

Hope this helps a bit.

-- John Bodin
   Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine
   http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:19:33 +0100, "Detonate"

1. SCGT (with appropriate tweaking of the AI to make em corner faster)
2. GPL
3. EA Superbikes ( be No 1 if they tweaked the AI spped by 10% or so)
4. Viper Racing (especially if you tweak it to race more cars at once)
5. Colin McRae Rally.

Graphics cards. Buy some cheap Voodoo 2's and run them in SLI mode and get a TNT 2
Ultra for future games.

Steering wheel. Tried at least a dozen and settled for the Logitech Force. Can't go
past the Microsoft Sidewinder Precicion Pro for a joystick and the Gravis USB
Gamepad.

Bike sims. EA Superbike needs faster AI but still a fun game with very nice
graphics. GP500 will blow your mind and AMA Superbikes looks prmising in terms of
multiplayer fun.

Welcome to the world of sims!

1) Online racing
----------------
Grand Prix Legends (GPL)
Monster Truck Madness (MTM1/2)
Monaco Grand Prix Racing Simulation (MGPRS2)
CART Precision Racing (CPR)
(I would include NASCAR 2 but in the UK getting an account to race on
"TEN", the online service, is tricky.

2) Realistic driving
--------------------
Grand Prix Legends
Grand Prix 2
Monaco Grand Prix Racing Simulation (MGPRS2)
CART Racing (ICR2)
Viper Racing

3) Racing (offline)
-------------------
Viper Racing
Grand Prix Legends (GPL)
Sports Car GT (SCGT)
TOCA2
Monster Truck Madness (MTM1/2)

I find them all too difficult but then I'm no bike fan! EA Superbike
(SBK) is pretty good, though there's a couple coming soon which look
well worth waiting for.

With auto-sims the video card is quite dependent upon what game you
want to run. Some offer pretty much unilateral support, some require
Rendition support (quite unudual), some only 3dFX or Rendition, others
no 3D support at all (GP2 etc). The best is probably a 3dFX for now
since that offers maximum compatibility now and in the near future.
Personally I'm keeping my Voodoo2 and swapping out my Hercules
Thriller 3D V2200 (Rendition) for a TNT2-Ultra board.

If you're dead set on buying one then I've no useful comment. I've
tried all the FF wheels and consider the wheels themselves to be
"okay" and the FF to be a waste of time at present (i.e. not
representative of the forces which a real car would create). Best to
buy a non-FF wheel at present, an ECCI or TSW if budget allows, or an
F1-sim otherwise. The F1-sim has the advantage of being relatively
cheap and widely available within the UK.

The best websites are not really in the UK, although one of the best
started life there. The Pits (http://www.theuspits.com) is a good
starting place for files and utilities, for news High Gear is quite
good (http://www.simracingnews.com) - both also have lots of links to
get you going. From either of these you will find lots of sites
dedicated to specific sims. For GPL the best site to start with is
Alison Hine's, although I don't remember the URL at the moment! Do a
search on Dejanews for Alison Hine or "Eagle Woman" and you should
find it.

Hope to see you online sometime - it's always nice to have another UK
racer. A few of us UK people race together in the UK GPL league, so
perhaps that's something you can look at if GPL is a sim you enjoy.

Cheers!
John

Thanks for the link Don, it will be invaluable no doubt in the coming months for
my quest for a FF wheel.

Much appreciated.

Det.

Hmm, seems we think alike Mark with our choices - I've earmarked all the above
as contenders.  Thanks for the tips, I'll be checking them out over the coming
months.

I have to say, I'm very impressed with the civility of everyone here, it makes a
refreshing change to find such a friendly and helpful group of people on
usenet - thanks to one and all!

Detonate.

Thanks for the advice John, though the US prices don't really assist that much
due to exchange rates and shipping - any savings would be swallowed up importing
it, as well as prices and availability here in the UK fluctuate from the average
to the ***ly overpriced.  The best deal I've found by far is the M$ FF wheel
from Insight.com, which is 86.94UKP - sorry dunno what this translates to
dollars.  From looking around, it's only the big warehouse type stores which
have any kind of range when it comes to wheels, but the payoff is in price
unfortunately. :-(  I'll check out this Saitek gig though to see if there is
anything available/applicable to the UK.

Can't say I'm familiar with ACT Labs, nor Andretti wheel, so if a URL is
available, I'd really appreciate it.

As for the sims, I've been digging through the pile of cover CD's which come
with various *** mags to find what I've missed.  I have to agree with you on
most, though I've yet to load up the GPL demo's [there are 2 different ones from
what I've seen].
    I think you hit the nail on the head when it comes to my preferences -
contemporary cars, though I still plan on checking out GPL at some stage.  I
can't really get into the F1 sims - yet, but I'm intrigued by CMR though I'm
having trouble with running the demo alone, so I'll have to wait on that one for
a conclusive result on whether it's what I'm 'into'.

My next consideration is this graphics card issue.  I'm very wary of the Voodoo
3 3000 and don't think it's worth it, IMHO, so I'm angling for a cheap ATI Rage
Fury from Insight [bargain bin - around 56UKP, which is better than 128UKP
retail] and be happy with it until the current situation develops a bit further
in the coming months - the Matrox G400 seems to be interesting but there are
others on the peripheral which appear to offer great promise as well.

Anyway, thanks for replying John, your insight has been both welcome and
invaluable.

Detonate

snip [my apologies]

Very useful and informative John - I'm trying to build up a list of useful
hardward as well as titles which have been tried and debated here - the best way
to find out what's good and so so.

Your comments have been informative and hopefully when I get myself a decent
system up together, I'll be racing in short time.  Provided the wife lets me, of
course! <g>

Thanks again

Detonate

1. Gfx cards; a pity that Banshee of yours is occupying your AGP slot.
Otherwise a combo of Voodoo 2 (PCI) and the new TNT 2 (AGP) seems to
get you the best of "both" worlds.
Aggreed, the Matrox G4000 is a card to watch, but as it's not out
yet...

2. FF Wheels; I use a MS Sidewinder FF Wheeeeee! and am extreamly
satisfied with it. No calibration never (digital), good FF effects,
the best pedals, paddle shifters and a superb on/off clamping
mechanism (It comes off/fastens in seconds).

3. UK websites? You mean OK websites? There are plenty...  :-)

Games/sims; Where to begin...
TOCA 2 is excellent and only UK tracks  :-)  Great sounds, superb
graphics and weather effects, so-so car physics, limited setups but
all-in-all a great game. And racing the support car Fiesta or AC Cobra
is a hoot!

CMR is also great fun. Mind you, FF self-centering is non functional
is CMR but for some reason I got used to it and it's not a problem
anymore. Maybe it's designed that way by Codemaster, I dunno. Few
games give me such a phsyical workout as CMR.

SCGT is <insert superlatives here>. Up to par with TOCA 2. A bit weak
in the FF dept. though. And a game interface from hell!

Viper Racing. The best FF effects, period. And the championship mode
is great. For some reason sold for half the price of other games.

Powerslide. It'll give your new FF wheel a proper workout, that's for
sure!

GPL; I won't even begin... It's a must-have!

/petern

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:19:33 +0100, "Detonate"

Me too, so no prob.

Before GPL (which I saw in Electronics boutique for 20 quid last week!) there
was N2 (now on budget), F1RS (also on budget), ICR2 (budget - if you can find
it) and GP2 (again on budget).  Currently there's MGPRS (don't own), SCGT
(which I'm gonna buy), Viper (also a possible purchase - don't like fantasy
tracks though) and TOCA - which I really don't like.  CMR I found to be fun,
but maybe not simmy enough for you.

I ain't a biker, so can't help there.  In a bike sim how do you manage to
effectively lean -and- steer with analogue control?

I just bought a V3 3000 - don't write 'em off.  They may not be quite as fast
or Carmack friendly as a TNT2 ultra but I get -proper- GPL support and there
are still decent Glide sims available.  Not being fastest does not
automatically mean being bad.  My PC is -only- for sim racing.  Couldn't give
a monkeys what Q3 heads think.  Mind you, I'm upgrading from a P200 and V1,
so anything will look impressive to me.

Friendly advice: buy a gfx card for what you play, not what you might in the
future.  Buy a card for those -future games- when those games are out.  By
then, the Ultra's ***will be kicked out of town... You don't buy a N64 to
play Gran Turismo, You don't buy a Dreamcast to play Mario Cart...

Sorry, not bothered about FF.  My TM F1 (split axis, lovely pedal and shifter
feel) cost me 70 quid from PC World.

You've been given plenty by now!

Enjoy your racing, glad you could make it.  And persevere with GPL!! BTW, all
my opinions are based on 1 player racing - I haven't got on to internet
racing yet...

Mark
Reading, UK

Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Just a reply to make some discussion here I hope.

From this list, you feel that the physics in MGPRS2 are more accurate and
better than Icr2 or Viper Racing ?  I personally, after open-wheel and
stock-car racing experience, would rate Viper Racing second below GPL, and a
tie between Gp2 and Icr2 after.

I personally think that if you mix the physics of Gp2 and Icr2 it would
create probably the most perfect recent open-wheel driving ever.  In Icr2
you have great visual cues when you are concentrated on the feelings and
forces of the car, while in Gp2, you have this pure rage of Formula 1
exiting the corners with great power and acceleration.

Compare those to MGPRS2, where you have this blattent attempt to an accurate
tyre slip angle that fails in a canned way (just try at slow speed to go
back and fourth to build up tyre heat like in real life) and also no real
feeling since the***pit and the visual 3d doesn't woggle in any kind of
way (except on the bumps at some tracks), I personally feel they are more
accurate, even if older.

So in what way does your opinion goes to say "realistic driving" ?. It is
the sense of being at the edge of your seat ? The graphics ? The physics ?
Anything else ;-D

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."