rec.autos.simulators

by **Paul L. Finnemor** » Fri, 12 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Absolutely correct. The software doesn't just allow for analogue control, it was designed for
it. For a better racing experience, you really MUST get a decent analogue joystick, or
preferably one of the ThrustMaster steering wheels. It will give you far greater control and
feedback than keys ever could.

--
***************************************************************************
* Paul L. Finnemore, Apprentice Veterinarian *

* "Five tablets and a ten minute consultation. That's 50 please." *
***************************************************************************

by **Andy Jacks** » Fri, 12 Jan 1996 04:00:00

I've been playing many of the racing simms for quite a few years now (esp
F1GP), but have always tended to use KEYBOARD controls rather that a
joystick. Certainly on F1GP this does not seem to cause any problems,
but on NASCAR and, most recently ICR2, I think I'm not getting the degree
of throttle control that I need. On ICR2 in particular, when I apply the
power coming out of a turn, the car just oversteers uncontrolably.

Is this becuase, by using keys to accel/brake, I'm going from 0%
throttle to 100% throttle instantly?
If I were to use a joystick, would this solve the problem?
Does the software allow for "analogue" control of the throttle?

Thanks
--
Andrew Jackson. (Bracknell, Berkshire, England).

by **Jeff Salzma** » Sat, 13 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Mercedes-Benz has an owner's club magazine- the interview with Stirling
Moss said that the power-to-weight ratio is so high in an F1 car (mind you,
this meant the cars he drove, many moons ago) that there is either all or no
throttle....looking over a telemetry plot from Jordan-Hart F1 (some book I
saw, I can't remember which) showed that the throttle was either all or
nothing.

Why do racing sims not use the throttle as either on/off (or at least
allow a feature that supports this)??

by **Matthew Birger Patri Knuts** » Sat, 13 Jan 1996 04:00:00

>Subject: Binary Throttle ?
>Date: 11 Jan 1996 19:46:13 -0000
>I've been playing many of the racing simms for quite a few years now (esp
>F1GP), but have always tended to use KEYBOARD controls rather that a
>joystick. Certainly on F1GP this does not seem to cause any problems,
>but on NASCAR and, most recently ICR2, I think I'm not getting the degree
>of throttle control that I need. On ICR2 in particular, when I apply the
>power coming out of a turn, the car just oversteers uncontrolably.
>Is this becuase, by using keys to accel/brake, I'm going from 0%
>throttle to 100% throttle instantly?
>If I were to use a joystick, would this solve the problem?
>Does the software allow for "analogue" control of the throttle?
>Thanks
>--
>Andrew Jackson. (Bracknell, Berkshire, England).

Hi Andy,
I am also a loony keyboard user, and experience the same problem- BUT I was
told that the keyboard works smoothly - you turn the wheel slowly, and you go
soft on the brake and throttle - something you can feel especially good when
negotiating the chicane at Watkins Glen. See how the computer cars are
"throwing" themselves into the chicane? The only way I can get through there
quickly is by cutting the grass! I would love to get a T2 - problem is it
costs 200 here. Also, If the brakes are instantly working at 100%, you would
lock the wheels and make a mess of it. And you would get "snap" oversteer-
like what you are experiencing. I am getting a bit confused right now....the
main oversteer problem to me is the fact that the engine does not speed up
(higher RPM) when the rear wheels loose traction. the only way to discover
that you are "loose" is to see what happens when you are getting out of a
turn..Poor feedback!! You can go quite quickly on the road courses - on NASCAR
I am right up with the real lap records, but in a race the keyboard is useless.

Cheers,
Matthew.

by **Paul Smy** » Sat, 13 Jan 1996 04:00:00

>I've been playing many of the racing simms for quite a few years now (esp
>F1GP), but have always tended to use KEYBOARD controls rather that a
>joystick. Certainly on F1GP this does not seem to cause any problems,
>but on NASCAR and, most recently ICR2, I think I'm not getting the degree
>of throttle control that I need. On ICR2 in particular, when I apply the
>power coming out of a turn, the car just oversteers uncontrolably.

>Is this becuase, by using keys to accel/brake, I'm going from 0%
>throttle to 100% throttle instantly?
>If I were to use a joystick, would this solve the problem?
>Does the software allow for "analogue" control of the throttle?

I think this, to a certain extent, reflects the fact that f1gp was written
when few people used joysticks readily, and the keyboard was the standard thing.
It is both the steering and the throttle which are a problem on Indycar.
What makes F1GP so much better for keyboard users is the cunning levels of
damping introduced so that it's very easy to keep the car steering at a fixed
angle, if you're trying to steer very slightly, by dabbing Left or Right...

--
Paul Smyth, Dept of Medical BioPhysics, University of Manchester.

Telephone: +44 (0161) 275 5157

by **Steve Pritchar** » Sat, 13 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Andrew,

Yes.

Steve.

by **RickGent** » Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Why do racing sims not use the throttle as either on/off (or at least
allow a feature that supports this)??
<<<

I was recently reviewing some telemetry from an IndyCar running at Long
Beach, and the throttle was most definitely *not* on/off. One thing that
was interesting (and that both NASCAR and IndyCar Racing II support, but
you need the proper control hardware to support), is that a lot of the
time the driver was using both the throttle and the brake.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

by **RickGent** » Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Is this becuase, by using keys to accel/brake, I'm going from 0%
throttle to 100% throttle instantly?
If I were to use a joystick, would this solve the problem?
Does the software allow for "analogue" control of the throttle?
<<<

We don't slam the throttle from 0% to 100% on a digital control; we ramp
it up, albeit in about one second. With a joystick or other analog device,
you can control the amount of throttle you feed the car. And yes, this
makes a big difference, especially when your tires are cold.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

by **Steve Pritchar** » Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:00:00

I think this is a little harsh - F1GP is a sim, but it has facilities to
enable it to be played with the keyboard, which does pull it down nearer
to a 'game' than a sim.

is awesome!<<

Yes, it is much better than previous Papyrus sims - IMO they still need
to work on the model of the car - it's obviously come a long way since
NASCAR.

Virtual Karts - now there's a game you can play with the keyboard.<<

Not really comparing like with like there, are we? Microprose are only
the publishers of GP2 - the code is down to Geoff Crammond and his team.
We've seen in the past his ability to deliver the goods - let's hope that
this continues to be the case.

Steve.

by **Michael E. Carv** » Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:00:00

: I was recently reviewing some telemetry from an IndyCar running at Long
: Beach, and the throttle was most definitely *not* on/off. One thing that
: was interesting (and that both NASCAR and IndyCar Racing II support, but
: you need the proper control hardware to support), is that a lot of the
: time the driver was using both the throttle and the brake.

Using both the brake and throttle to control a heavy NASCAR on a road
circuit is a MUST. I salute Papyrus for providing this detail to their
sim. Actually the brakes and throttle or just as important to
controlling a car as the steering wheel (and wings).

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

by **Steve Pritchar** » Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Rick,

brake.<<

Is this using a left foot braking technique like Mika Hakkinen is known
for, or is it heel & toe action?

While I've got your attention <g> - is there any reason why ICR etc don't
have neutral gears, and reverse is only available by using a different
input source rather than the normal gear shift mechanism? Also, does the
car's model use a centrepetal clutch which reduces wheelspin, because I
have never noticed the revs climbing to indicate wheelspin when pulling
away, etc.

Thanks.

Steve.

by **RickGent** » Mon, 15 Jan 1996 04:00:00

Is this using a left foot braking technique like Mika Hakkinen is known
for, or is it heel & toe action?
<<<

I believe it was left foot braking.

While I've got your attention <g> - is there any reason why ICR etc don't
have neutral gears, and reverse is only available by using a different
input source rather than the normal gear shift mechanism? Also, does the
car's model use a centrepetal clutch which reduces wheelspin, because I
have never noticed the revs climbing to indicate wheelspin when pulling
away, etc.
<<<

Our physics model requires the car to be in gear; this is why we don't
have neutral. As for reverse, I think we didn't want to make it easy to
accidentally shift into reverse. The car's model does not use a
centripetal clutch, and when the car is in a wild spin, you *can* see the
RPMs skyrocket while you are spinning out of control as the wheels spin.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

by **Redden Michael Cri** » Mon, 15 Jan 1996 04:00:00

>I've been playing many of the racing simms for quite a few years now (esp
>F1GP), but have always tended to use KEYBOARD controls rather that a
>joystick. Certainly on F1GP this does not seem to cause any problems,
>but on NASCAR and, most recently ICR2, I think I'm not getting the degree
>of throttle control that I need. On ICR2 in particular, when I apply the
>power coming out of a turn, the car just oversteers uncontrolably.
>Is this becuase, by using keys to accel/brake, I'm going from 0%
>throttle to 100% throttle instantly?
>If I were to use a joystick, would this solve the problem?
>Does the software allow for "analogue" control of the throttle?

Despite what you've be told, binary throttle and brake in NASCAR is an
advantage. If you use a joystick try it yourself.
Set autoshift on.
set throttle and brake to buttons.
use an oval u r familar with.
set the car to full rear weight and rear spoiler to 40.
Drive a few laps.
Now set the throttle and brake to analog.
Try driving the car.
Please post your results.

by **Michael E. Carv** » Mon, 15 Jan 1996 04:00:00

: Michael,

: >>Using both the brake and throttle to control a heavy NASCAR on a road
: circuit is a MUST.<<

: Just out of interest, do you mean for them both to be in use at the same
: time, or the fact that they should both be available (and analogue, as
: opposed to binary). If it's the former, what benefit do you think it
: provides to accelerate and brake at the same time?

I use the brake to get the car "pointed" in the right direction, then
back onto the throttle to help straighten out the car. Sometimes it's
just a light tap on the brakes to bring the weight over the front
wheels. It's a quick brake to throttle thing, with the brake coming off
as the throttle goes down.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

by **Mike Donnell** » Mon, 15 Jan 1996 04:00:00

I can testify to the accuracy of that! I was (finally) in the lead at
long beach and the penske I just passed for the lead (on the final lap)
took offense and tried to do an out break manuever, we got tangled up and
it sent my engine sky high. Man was I pi**ed.

Mike