rec.autos.simulators

Hands up if you wore it out and bought a new wheel just to play GPL?

Hands up if you bought a video board just to play GPL?

Well chances are Microsoft, Logitec, Actlabs or Thrustmaster etc..
wouldn't have got your money without the hard work and development
(and ISP fees) provided by the likes of Alison Hine, Magnus (what is
his last name?), Larry Holbert and countless others whose names
deserve mention but escape me at the moment.   It's people like that
who are responsible for taking a good tittle and making it great.
Without them you'd probably never have bought your wheel in the first
place.  You could probably argue that without the GPL community Papy,
EA etc.. wouldn't have invested the development effort in what grew to
be NR2003, F12002 etc...

It's understandable that these people move on eventually and nobody
should hold them to a life time commitment for our enjoyment once it
starts to feel like a chore to them.

But there's got to be some way to take what's been built now, such as
the track database and all the add-on tracks and graphics, and
inevitably GPLrank and save it before it's lost.  That's where the
manufacturers come in.  The webspace that would be required to
maintain the existing track data base and other resources that are
slowly fading away would cost them nothing in the corporate grand
scheme of things and it would keep us enjoying the game until we wear
out our current wheels.

I know if brand X stepped up to the plate they'd be the first wheel
I'd consider when my current Thrustmaster turns it's last corner.

I originally thought that's the sort of thing FILSCA was going to do
for the community but they got so bogged down in governance structures
and they seemed to think that for profit companies had no place in
internet *** that it came to nothing.

In an ideal world, I'd like to think that what you seem to be asking
for would be forthcoming. Unfortunately, this is not an ideal world.
Until someone with marketing skills puts on a suit and calls on the
executives at some of the companies you mention, it isn't going to
happen. (And it might not happen even if this mythical marketing wiz
were to go calling.)

And if it did happen -- especially if it were Microsoft that stepped
in -- there'd be so much complaining about it that I suspect they'd
soon step back out again.

My take -- for what little it's worth -- is that if you want to save
some of the online resources, then you're going to have to do it
yourself. (Where "doing it yourself" may involve getting some friends
together to help you raise money and whatever else it takes.)

Despite the cynical tone of my reply, I'd like to join you in saying
that I also would hate to see these resources disappear. If you do
manage to think of some way to save them, please let the rest of us
know. If nothing else, you'll have lots of m***support!

All the best,
--
  Darryl

Check.

Check. And another. And another.

Yup.

Thome

Exactly... and that's the reward one gets for putting one's time/money in.

Equally true, but I think we are entitled to an explanation as to why
they're pulling out, even if it is "it's become a chore".

This situation smells like a tantrum to me, but even that is unconfirmed.

And don't go RaceSimCentral on me and tell me I can't be annoyed at that. If
your local library took out a commercial on regional television urging
people to visit the library and borrow books and you went there two days
later to find an empty building with a notice saying "we're taking a break
from being librarians and can't be contacted.", wouldn't that annoy you?

I don't think this one's a matter of lack of hosting opportunities, but you
have a point. Unfortunately I think it's very unlikely any sort of major
player is going to step up to safeguard the GPL heritage, but on the other
hand the community has been doing a good job in keeping major sites alive,
provided the original owner was willing to pass on the torch.

I think it's hard to develop something like that from the top down.

Jan.
=---

Especially if your taxes supported said library.

Yes the database is more then hosting but how many add-ons are gone too so
it would be a start.  I don't know how to do it but limping along from one
overworked volunteer to another can't be the answer either.

I don't think we're entitled to anything. What should that be based on?
Magnus has provided a wonderful service to the community for free (AAMOF
he probably even invested some money), but did the community ever give
anything back to him that would constitute a basis for a claim to
receive an explanation when Magnus ceases to provide that service?

And we have no right to be annoyed either. For years when we saw that ad
and went to the library, there was great stuff there. Now one single
time, two days after an ad, the building was empty. Considering the
relative percentages of having found great stuff, and finding an empty
building, we better be quiet and thank Magnus for what he's done for us :)

Achim

Because that's what bothers me... if Magnus, for whatever reason, wants to
give up on the Track Database and not allow others to build on his work,
that's fine. No problem, if he'd just own up to it.
I'm sure there's a couple guys on RSC who know exactly where he's coming
from and who sympathise, but 99.999% of the visitors to his site are now
thinking "WTF did I ever do to this guy?" and that _ANNOYS_ me.

Then again, what was I thinking expecting rational behavior from someone
heavily involved with the GPLRally concept... <vbg>

Magnus saw a job that needed doing and he did it... what did he expect? -A
statue?

I do stuff for the simracing community too (so do Art, Asgeir, Mark, Fulvio,
Pascal, Darius, Tim, Stefan, Helmut, Benoit, Alain, Sebastien, Mitch, Dave,
Eldred and many more...). I invest time, money and expertise to advance
simracing as a hobby/sport. Do I expect something in return? -No. Would I
willingly let my efforts go to waste? -No, regardless of who or what pissed
me off.

I'll tell you what I got out of it so far (apart from personal
satisfaction): I got a corner on a fictional GPL Track named after me. An
uphill, off camber, decreasing radius left which you can't break in a
straight line for. The ultimate combination of corner characteristics I'm
not comfortable with. Woooo-freaking-hoo! Does that bother me? -No.

Like I said, I don't like being told who or what I can or can't be annoyed
with. If Magnus has a problem with what I say, he knows where to find me. As
far as I'm concerned, in the simracing community, you either do nothing, do
something yourself and keep doing it or help someone else doing it in your
place.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I'll get back to doing more important stuff (I
wouldn't even have missed the Track DB until March next year at the
earliest). I don't see why I should be the one explaning myself over this.

Jan.
=---

It perhaps looks rude at first sight, but we all don't know what
happened. IMO we should give Magnus some leeway for all the great work
he's done for us.

IMO you can't compare that. Being a league admin is a position you got
by accepting a vote, or the job when it was offered to you. Or you
started the league attracting people based on the inherent promise you'd
do the job.

Magnus was offering his site all by himself, no responsibilities
offered, and none accepted.

Tough luck ;) but aren't you a little ungrateful to the guy who named
that corner after you? ;)

I wouldn't take that personally? It is difficult to provide public
services selectively, most of us probably simply got caught out by a
prob we didn't have anything to do with, I'd guess?

Maybe Magnus is moving on to N2k3 - Magnus, we need you there! ;)

Dismissed ;)

Achim