rec.autos.simulators

:I am struggleing with a problem...
:I set up a car in pre-season, dial it in in season practice until it is
:great, practice through a tank of gas just to see how it handles through
:the changes and re dial it.   Then I go to race mode and my car doesn't
:handle nearly as well.  I can find noway to predict just how much my car
:will change.  All I know is that it will change alot.  Sometimes it is so
:loose I cannot get the tires hot until I'm lapped.  Other times I push to
:the wall no matter how slow I go.  I am very happy with the game up until
:I go to race mode and my #1 fast in practice car cant stay between the
:walls!!!!!!!!!
:If any other racer has had this problem, please e-me or post.

What you have just encountered, is the Papyrus' famed "traction or cross weight
bug"!! After long periods of tweaking your car, your car becomes "tight", so to
compensate for the problem you "loosen" the car. But, the next time you "race"
or start the game over, you are "loose as a goose"!!!<G> There was an old
employee of Papyrus, Rick Genter,  once told me how to sorta get rid of it. You
had to go through steps, to get rid of some of it. Here is what the steps are:

1) Practice
2) Goto Garage save setup
3) Leave Game
4) Goto track
5) Practice, run a couple of laps..
6) Goto Garage
7) load setup, that was previously saved
8) Have fun!!

BTW, use the "esc" key to get in and out of the menus..

take care..
Julian Data #0004
 Director of Information Technology, Consultant, "Ace" Test Driver
 Offical Channel Operator (#ivgacsnc, on undernet)
 International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc.
 http://www.racesimcentral.net/

 IVGA Headquarters:
 International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc. (IVGA)
 14100 Walsingham Avenue
 Suite 36
 Largo, FL 34644
 Voice: (813) 596-6661

I am struggleing with a problem...
I set up a car in pre-season, dial it in in season practice until it is
great, practice through a tank of gas just to see how it handles through
the changes and re dial it.   Then I go to race mode and my car doesn't
handle nearly as well.  I can find noway to predict just how much my car
will change.  All I know is that it will change alot.  Sometimes it is so
loose I cannot get the tires hot until I'm lapped.  Other times I push to
the wall no matter how slow I go.  I am very happy with the game up until
I go to race mode and my #1 fast in practice car cant stay between the
walls!!!!!!!!!
If any other racer has had this problem, please e-me or post.

: I am struggleing with a problem...
: I set up a car in pre-season, dial it in in season practice until it is
: great, practice through a tank of gas just to see how it handles through
: the changes and re dial it.   Then I go to race mode and my car doesn't
: handle nearly as well.  I can find noway to predict just how much my car
: will change.  All I know is that it will change alot.  Sometimes it is so
: loose I cannot get the tires hot until I'm lapped.  Other times I push to
: the wall no matter how slow I go.  I am very happy with the game up until
: I go to race mode and my #1 fast in practice car cant stay between the
: walls!!!!!!!!!
: If any other racer has had this problem, please e-me or post.

This is known as the "traction bug" or "weight-shift bug".  It seems
that for the first 15 minutes or so of a session the traction or
weight-shift is totally different than what happens later on in the
session.  

One other factor could be that your frame rate drops in race conditions.
This can also cause a hard to control car.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Dave (davids) Sparks
Late Night League
http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

OK, I guess I missed the memo....Please explain to me how this "traction
bug" works. Am I to understand that your car is looser in the first 15
minutes of a given session with NASCAR and them tightens up? Do I have to
boot the game and then let it "warm up" for 15 minutes, or what?

This is all very interesting and would explain quite a few of my problems
with some setups...
Can someone give me a summary of the bug?

Thanks
Lou B.
Rustbucket

:OK, I guess I missed the memo....Please explain to me how this "traction
:bug" works. Am I to understand that your car is looser in the first 15
:minutes of a given session with NASCAR and them tightens up? Do I have to
:boot the game and then let it "warm up" for 15 minutes, or what?
:
Hmm.. How do I start??... You asked for it and now you are going to get it..<G>

Okay, the "cross weight" bug or ala "traction bug", first starts when you are
attempting to setup a car for either race or qualify, hopefully you will
succeed!!; )

Now usually when working at a track, as time passes along, the "traction bug"
begins to take over your setup or the physics of the car. I mean the begins to
get "tighter" or "pushes" in the turns. So usually to ressolve this issue,
hopefully you have some understanding on setting up car, you take out "wedge" or
cross weight. This usually helps the car turn left. If you want a more detail
explanation on setting up a car for NASCAR or Indycar2 just email me, okay??

Now then, if that doesn't then you move onto stagger..then the
shocks..blah..blah..blah.. You are constantly fighting a "tight" condition!!

Once you get "frustrated" enough, you will quit and leave the game!!!! Many
times I have been through this!!!

As you return back to the game, and since your setup is still there, you begin
to drive the car and.. "IT'S LOOSE A GOOSE"!!!! <G> So all that time you have
been trying to fix your setup or your line to improve your times or
constantancy, you have achieved "NOTHING"!!! So you have to start all over
again..

When I last posted, I forgot to mention the steps that "Rick Genter",
ex-employee of Papy, told me. I will do it over again okay??

1- work on setup..
2- save setup!! Use the "esc" key...
3- exit game, using "esc" key and the "enter"...
4- reload game
5- goto track
6- VERY IMPORTANT HERE..drive a couple of laps, it doesn't matter what setup you
have loaded currently...
7- hit the "esc" key and goto "garage"
8- load saved setup
9- viola!! Traction Bug is gone..BUT..

It comes back when you start a RACE!!! Very confusing isn't it?? Hehehe.. NASCAR
2 is claimed to have all the bugs fixed in NASCAR 1.  Which means..."new bugs"
are comming..that is part of software..Hehehe

I have really gone into detail about the procedure, I hope I haven't lost you on
it. I have answered numerously via email. But if you so happen to have a
question, just email me, so we don't take up bandwidth!!

Now, the following tracks known to have the traction bug..going from, "worse to
least":

A-North Wilkesboro    blap: 118.730mph unofficial  116.xxx official
B-Richmond           blap: 132.643mph unofficial  129.xx official
C-Sears Point       blap:  95.095mph unofficial  91.xxx official (long ago)<G>
D-Michigan      blap: 194.534mph unofficial 192.xxx official (boy, Pekka still
have it, eh?? hehe)
D-Rockingham    blap:  156.784mph unofficial  154.515 official (oh yeah, Grandy,
Sr., I am comming back for ya!! ; ) )

All times through "nascar.exe". My times for HAWAII are faster..hehehe..

That's it...

:This is all very interesting and would explain quite a few of my problems
:with some setups...
:Can someone give me a summary of the bug?

Did it help you out??

Now to start figuring out GP2!!!<G> Hmm..

take care..

Thanks for the detailed explainantion...It leaves me with two questions...

1)About  how many laps constitute the "few" laps you mentioned to squash
the traction bug?

and!

2) Could you use the "warmup" session to relieve the problem when you
start a race?

(and 2b, what the heck purpose is  the warmup sessionsupposed to serve
anyway? )

Well thanks a lot! You've been a big help. This explains all the problems
I have with Dover Downs! There and C***te, I invariably twirl the thing
coming out of the pit in practice for the first time....very interesting.
Just one more disadvantage that we have vs the AI cars!

Lou B.
Rustbucket

:Thanks for the detailed explainantion...It leaves me with two questions...
:
:1)About  how many laps constitute the "few" laps you mentioned to squash
:the traction bug?
:
Usually one to three laps.. I usually do two..

:and!
:
:2) Could you use the "warmup" session to relieve the problem when you
:start a race?

No. It doesn't work!! I have tried it. BUT, you can go ahead and do the race,
and run some laps for about five minutes of racing, THEN restart the race.  This
usually settles down the bug.

:(and 2b, what the heck purpose is  the warmup sessionsupposed to serve
:anyway? )

As in NASCAR, you are allowed to do a "warm up" session several hours before the
start of the race. During this period, you can sure your settings are
comfortable to you or not. Plus, after this session, you can "NO" longer go into
the garage. Got it?? <G> The garage is out of bounds..hehehe..

Does everyone understand the "traction bug"?? If not, I can go into a real
technical standpoint about it..  Really..

take care

Julian Data #0004
 Director of Information Technology, Consultant, "Ace" Test Driver
 Offical Channel Operator (#ivgacsnc, on undernet)
 International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc.
 Http://www.ivga.com

 IVGA Headquarters:
 International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc. (IVGA)
 14100 Walsingham Avenue
 Suite 36
 Largo, FL 34644
 Voice: (813) 596-6661

:Well thanks a lot! You've been a big help. This explains all the problems
:I have with Dover Downs! There and C***te, I invariably twirl the thing
:coming out of the pit in practice for the first time....very interesting.
:Just one more disadvantage that we have vs the AI cars!
:
:Lou B.
:Rustbucket

You are extremely welcome!!<G>

take care
Julian Data #0004
 Director of Information Technology, Consultant, "Ace" Test Driver
 Offical Channel Operator (#ivgacsnc, on undernet)
 International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc.
 http://www.racesimcentral.net/

 IVGA Headquarters:
 International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc. (IVGA)
 14100 Walsingham Avenue
 Suite 36
 Largo, FL 34644
 Voice: (813) 596-6661

Dave (davids) Sparks
Late Night League
http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

:Papyrus has been a little bit reluctant to give out specific details on the
:bug, because it relates to their proprietary physics model.

Yes they have been..

:However, there :was apparently a problem with a decay constant (which
: suggests something :related to shocks or springs) that caused the weight
: to shift on the car.

No..wrong..I will explain it again from a letter I wrote a couple of days ago.

:In general, this led to a car that started very loose and tended to tighten
:up over time.
:
Sorta..

Here it is:

Okay, how do I start?? Hmm..

The Papyrus "cross weight" or better known as the, "traction bug", is
a phenonmenon that occurs during setting up a car to cure an ailing
problem, being too "tight" after a period of 15-30 minutes on a track.
Each track, btw, has it's own severeness of the bug!! ...Let me give
you a scenario, okay??

Let's you are at "Richmond", you begin by setting a race or qual
setup. You drive around to see what you have to adjust to correct
problems with the car, you know "tight" or "loose". After a period of
time of 15 minutes or more, you notice that your car or setup begins
to tighten up more, in the less amount of time you have been on the
track!! So usually, you would have to "loosen" the car, via "cross
weight", shocks..stagger..etc.. This "tightness" syptom begins to get
worse as time flies when you are practicing. So you usually get
frustrated and leave the sim.

Now when you come back to the game, by reloading it, of course, and
goto the track you were working on, your car is "loose as a goose"!!!
You cannot drive the car at all!! You really get pissed about it!! All
that work for nothing!!!

Here is a technical explanation of what is happening, as you enter a
turn, the weight of the vehicle transfers to the front of the car.
Then the weight transfers to the outside front wheel, usually the
right front, as you reach the apex of the turn you slowly apply the
gas, and now the weight slowly transfers to the rear of car.
Especially to the left rear tire. All of this is happening gradually,
depending how fast you can get on the gas.

Now with the "traction bug", if you are on a turn or not, a slight
turn of the wheel sends you spinning out all the time!!! You see
instead of being a gradual weight transfer, the "bug" quickly moves
the weight to the rear causing you to be loose as a goose. Do you got
it?? > Here are the tracks that are really known for the "bug":

a-North Wilkesboro
b-Richmond
c-Sears Point
d-Dover Downs
e-Michigan
f-Phoenix
g-Rockingham

This is from "worse to least" case..Of course, Talladega has the
least.

To remedy the problem, this is what ex-Papy employee Rick Genter told
me...

1-Work on track
2-Save setup in garage
3-exit game
4-reload game
5-goto track
6-DRIVE around track for a couple of laps..
7-goto garage
8-load setup that was saved..

**** Use the "esc" key to get in and out of menus at the track!!!

Now, if you start a race after you have been through all this stuff,
THE BUG WILL COME BACK!!!! Regardless if you do the "warm up session"
or not!! Do you understand George??

Any questions?? Just email me, okay??

You are extremely welcome!!! BTW, Indycar 2 has a version of it,
regardless of the patch or not!!! Instead of being tight, you are
loose!! Exactly opposite of NASCAR.

Oh yeah, NASCAR 2 better be awesome. And the Rendition chip really
sucks!! Just my opinion..such as many others..

take care..

Julian Data #0004
 Director of Information Technology, Consultant, "Ace" Test Driver
 Offical Channel Operator (#ivgacsnc, on undernet)
 International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc.
 Http://www.ivga.com

 IVGA Headquarters:
 International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc. (IVGA)
 14100 Walsingham Avenue
 Suite 36
 Largo, FL 34644
 Voice: (813) 596-6661

scribbled:

:
:>Now, if you start a race after you have been through all this stuff,
:>THE BUG WILL COME BACK!!!! Regardless if you do the "warm up session"
:>or not!! Do you understand George??
:
:Does Hawaii (multi.exe) have this problem?

Robert, no multi.exe does not have this problem. There should be "no" traction
bug hopefully in NASCAR 2!!!! But who knows..<G>

take care
Julian Data #0004
 Director of Information Technology, Consultant, "Ace" Test Driver
 Offical Channel Operator (#ivgacsnc, on undernet)
 International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc.
 Http://www.ivga.com

 IVGA Headquarters:
 International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc. (IVGA)
 14100 Walsingham Avenue
 Suite 36
 Largo, FL 34644
 Voice: (813) 596-6661

The fixes have migrated into ICR2, and will also be in NASCAR II (along
with the HOG fix).

Charlie Heath
Papyrus Design Group