rec.autos.simulators

by **Aimee Brow** » Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:00:00

> > this pearl of wisdom...
> > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter
> > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635).

<snip>

I don't know about the rest of you, but I would like to hear a lawyer's
opinion on this case. Surely there are a few in this group that could
comment on how serious or ridiculous this lawsuit really is. I know
that sometimes "the law" doesn't agree with common sense, and I hope
that this is not one of those times.

J. Smith

by **SimRaci** » Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:00:00

When was ebola added to the food chain BTW?<g>

by **Michael Lewch** » Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:00:00

>You can read the digest of the patent at the interesting
>http://www.racesimcentral.net/;It seems to describe a dedicated
>sports videogame that showed prerecorded video clips in response to
>controller input. I wonder what storage medium they planned to use back
>then, videotape? Think of the blazing fun as the VCR spends 2 minutes
>rewinding and cueing up a 5-second clip!

I've checked this out, and it seems to be a patent for a *** *system*
featuring *unaltered* prerecorded clips. I believe this means that any
computer games would be exempt if they do any dithering with the images, such
as building a scene from a series of overlapping black-background stillshots.
Personally I would think that it would also be impossible to sue a company
showing taped cutscenes or even something like Wing Commander 4's real taped
menuing system because it doesn't seem to fit the patent. I also wonder whether
this patent would extend into the computer industry since the patent appears
to be for hardware and method, and he obviously couldn't patent the computer.

As for how easily it could be done, I remember a couple of video games appearing
around that time called "Cobra Command" and "Dragon's Lair" which were
obviously cartoonized but featured the same system (except using taped cartoons
rather than taped live action). There could at times be noticeable delay
for the videodisk (or whatever) read and display, but most of the time it was
smooth. Why? The game follows a preprogrammed plotline; any deviation
results in a "failure". The only time you need to show something you know
you're not gonna have "at hand" is during a failure - and you can take a few
seconds to show, for example, Dirk the Daring getting a sword stuffed through
his guts (Dragon's Lair) because this doesn't require any joystick response.
The rest can be taped (and played) in a series. For example, Dragon's Lair
probably looked like a series of:
<scenario intro> <cut 1> <cut 2> <cut 3> ... <cut N> <finale> <death 1>
<death 2> ... <death M>
As you can see, the scenario could be played as "keep doing a linear read
until he screws up whereupon you jump to a death scene".

Disclaimer: I'm not a patent lawyer, so if you're really interested, I'm sure
a patent lawyer can be found who would be perfectly willing to answer your
questions, for the right price.

Michael Lewchuk

by **Dessloc** » Sun, 17 Aug 1997 04:00:00

> > > this pearl of wisdom...
> > > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter
> > > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635).

> <snip>

> I don't know about the rest of you, but I would like to hear a lawyer's
> opinion on this case. Surely there are a few in this group that could
> comment on how serious or ridiculous this lawsuit really is. I know
> that sometimes "the law" doesn't agree with common sense, and I hope
> that this is not one of those times.

Uh, you've already heard such an opinion -- in my post which you
responded to but deleted the substance!

looks completely without merit, for the reasons given in my prior post.

Desslock

--

Desslock's Diablo Guide, Final Edition (2.3 - MS-Word), at Game
Drek:http://www.pathcom.com/~kenl/ddig.htm

Weekly RPG Therapy Column: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg
Special "Ultima Online" Phase 1 Report:
http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg/rpgspecial.html

by **Philip M. D'Amat** » Sun, 17 Aug 1997 04:00:00

When it started eating people up.

by **Ben Bayli** » Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:00:00

> > >You can read the digest of the patent at the interesting
> > >http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/ site. It seems to describe a dedicated
> > >sports videogame that showed prerecorded video clips in response to
> > >controller input. I wonder what storage medium they planned to use back
> > >then, videotape? Think of the blazing fun as the VCR spends 2 minutes
> > >rewinding and cueing up a 5-second clip!

> > Laser disc. That game with the cartoon guy running around in the
> > dungeon came out sometime in the mid-80's. What was the name of it?
> > The sequel was "Space Ace."

> I think (?) the game is Dragon's Lair, that you are speaking of,,,and
> yes, there was
> quite a delay in the video sequences compared to today's standards, but
> it was Top of Line at the time. I remember it cost a dollar to play it
> :)

So doesn't Drahgons Lair pre-date the patent making in it invalid?

--

Do you think I am a megalomaniac ?
Just give me a ZX81, and I'll control the world !

by **Terry Hayn** » Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:00:00

: >

: > this pearl of wisdom...
: > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter
: > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635).
: >
: > Don't know if it's the same thing, but someone sent out a press release a
: > few years ago stating they had a patent on something that sounded similar
: > to this, and that they were looking for royalties from Sierra, LucasArts
: > and other big players in the adventure game biz.
: >
: > Never heard about it again until now.

: Pretty laughable, isn't it?
: Someone obviously just got some courage up and decided to try and make a
: few bucks in a settlement.

: Most ridiculous patent claim I've ever heard.
: Trying to patent a "method" of motion capture could, of course, be
: legitimate. But trying to "patent" a style of presentation or a medium
: itself -- puh-lease...

: Sheesh, should be counter-sued for initiating "frivolous and vexatious"
: lawsuit.

Jeez. We definitely need looze pays to eliminate
this settlement/sue at the drop of a hat mentality.

-Terry

-------

by **Gregg Abbot** » Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:00:00

> > > > this pearl of wisdom...
> > > > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter
> > > > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635).

> > <snip>

> > I don't know about the rest of you, but I would like to hear a lawyer's
> > opinion on this case. Surely there are a few in this group that could
> > comment on how serious or ridiculous this lawsuit really is. I know
> > that sometimes "the law" doesn't agree with common sense, and I hope
> > that this is not one of those times.

> Uh, you've already heard such an opinion -- in my post which you
> responded to but deleted the substance!

> looks completely without merit, for the reasons given in my prior post.

> Desslock

> --

> Desslock's Diablo Guide, Final Edition (2.3 - MS-Word), at Game
> Drek:http://www.racesimcentral.net/~kenl/ddig.htm

> Weekly RPG Therapy Column: http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> Special "Ultima Online" Phase 1 Report:
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

From what I've read of the patent, it seems as if the patent covered any
live or lifelike material used in a video game on any media. The
problem with the patent, is it seems to cover games and types of games
which were already made before the patent existed. The early to mid
eighties had a large number of laserdisk games, many of which resembled
the rail shooters of today (like Rebel ***), and others were
interactive moovies (Dragon's Lair, and Space Ace). There were likely
some live action laserdisk games also. Also, on the Atari ST/Amiga
platforms, there were games which used well rendered characters, like
Barbarian, Dungeon Master/Chaos strikes Back, Oliterator, etc, most of
which came out before the patent. I think if the patent is upheld, I'll
try to patent the paper clip, or toilet paper.

by **Gregg Abbot** » Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:00:00

> : >

> : > this pearl of wisdom...
> : > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter
> : > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635).
> : >
> : > Don't know if it's the same thing, but someone sent out a press release a
> : > few years ago stating they had a patent on something that sounded similar
> : > to this, and that they were looking for royalties from Sierra, LucasArts
> : > and other big players in the adventure game biz.
> : >
> : > Never heard about it again until now.

> : Pretty laughable, isn't it?
> : Someone obviously just got some courage up and decided to try and make a
> : few bucks in a settlement.

> : Most ridiculous patent claim I've ever heard.
> : Trying to patent a "method" of motion capture could, of course, be
> : legitimate. But trying to "patent" a style of presentation or a medium
> : itself -- puh-lease...

> : Sheesh, should be counter-sued for initiating "frivolous and vexatious"
> : lawsuit.

> Jeez. We definitely need looze pays to eliminate
> this settlement/sue at the drop of a hat mentality.

> -Terry

> -------

The worst thing about this, is that it's Apogee being sued over Duke
Nukem, which as far as I can tell, uses no live footage, and it not
overly realistic looking (more comic book presentation). Dragon's lair
could be considered more realistic for it used 24 frames per second (the
duke movies I beleive used only 15 fps) and likely used 24bit color
(duke only used 8bit). Also, there were seveal laserdisk games at the
time which used live footage. Also, rail shooters (similar to Rebel
***) came out in around '83, on the heals of Dragon's Lair and Space
Ace. There was also a beutiful futuristic racing game which used
texture mapped polygons (may have been pre-rendered, but it was hard to
tell) which I enjoyed (may have been called Star Rider or something like
that. Video capture boards were already an established accessory for
the 8 and 16 bit systems by '85 (they weren't real time, but you could
always frame capture from a laserdisk player or decent VCR).
I guess if there are valid parts of the patent in which the person is
making money from, filing this lawsuit could endanger the entire
patent. I don't know too much about patent laws, but common sence
suggests that this patent will stand up in court about as well as a
Quake marine gatting his head blown off with a quad-rocket.

by **ToR** » Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:00:00

> From what I've read of the patent, it seems as if the patent covered any
> live or lifelike material used in a video game on any media. The
> problem with the patent, is it seems to cover games and types of games
> which were already made before the patent existed. The early to mid
> eighties had a large number of laserdisk games, many of which resembled
> the rail shooters of today (like Rebel ***), and others were
> interactive moovies (Dragon's Lair, and Space Ace). There were likely
> some live action laserdisk games also. Also, on the Atari ST/Amiga
> platforms, there were games which used well rendered characters, like
> Barbarian, Dungeon Master/Chaos strikes Back, Oliterator, etc, most of
> which came out before the patent. I think if the patent is upheld, I'll
> try to patent the paper clip, or toilet paper.

What this proves is that these companies can't make money
just off games anymore, so they have to stoop to supplementing
their income by suing other companes.

Remember when Apogee was the 'big company on the net'
producing game after game after game? Those days seem now
to be just a distant memory.

ToR

by **Dessloc** » Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:00:00

> : Pretty laughable, isn't it?
> : Someone obviously just got some courage up and decided to try and make a
> : few bucks in a settlement.

> : Most ridiculous patent claim I've ever heard.
> : Trying to patent a "method" of motion capture could, of course, be
> : legitimate. But trying to "patent" a style of presentation or a medium
> : itself -- puh-lease...

> : Sheesh, should be counter-sued for initiating "frivolous and vexatious"
> : lawsuit.

> Jeez. We definitely need looze pays to eliminate
> this settlement/sue at the drop of a hat mentality.

Actually in Canada, the loser does pay the "winner's" legal costs --
it's a good rule, in my opinion, as it prevents cases which don't have
much prospect of success from being initiated.

"contingency fees" are also prohibited (or more regulated) in Canada --
prevents, uh, dishonorable lawyers from taking on cases which will
likely lose but which are potentially so lucrative that the lawyer
"gives it a shot"

Desslock
--

Desslock's Diablo Guide, Final Edition (2.3 - MS-Word), at Game
Drek:http://www.pathcom.com/~kenl/ddig.htm

Weekly RPG Therapy Column: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg
Special "Ultima Online" Phase 1 Report:
http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg/rpgspecial.html

by **Robin Sequi** » Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:00:00

But why did he wait all these years to make any legal claims? People have
been making games that go against he supposed patent for years, and he just
saying stuff now?

>> > >You can read the digest of the patent at the interesting
>> > >http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/ site. It seems to describe a dedicated
>> > >sports videogame that showed prerecorded video clips in response to
>> > >controller input. I wonder what storage medium they planned to use
back
>> > >then, videotape? Think of the blazing fun as the VCR spends 2 minutes
>> > >rewinding and cueing up a 5-second clip!

>> > Laser disc. That game with the cartoon guy running around in the
>> > dungeon came out sometime in the mid-80's. What was the name of it?
>> > The sequel was "Space Ace."

>> I think (?) the game is Dragon's Lair, that you are speaking of,,,and
>> yes, there was
>> quite a delay in the video sequences compared to today's standards, but
>> it was Top of Line at the time. I remember it cost a dollar to play it
>> :)

>So doesn't Drahgons Lair pre-date the patent making in it invalid?

>--

>Do you think I am a megalomaniac ?
> Just give me a ZX81, and I'll control the world !

by **Dessloc** » Tue, 19 Aug 1997 04:00:00

> What this proves is that these companies can't make money
> just off games anymore, so they have to stoop to supplementing
> their income by suing other companes.

> Remember when Apogee was the 'big company on the net'
> producing game after game after game? Those days seem now
> to be just a distant memory.

> ToR

Uh, I apologize if I misunderstood your post, but it sounds as if you
are blaming Apogee for the lawsuit (supplementing their income...) --
Apogee is actually the one being sued. I don't think the patent owner
has been publicly identified yet, so we don't know if the owner even is
a game company.

Desslock

--

Desslock's Diablo Guide, Final Edition (2.3 - MS-Word), at Game
Drek:http://www.pathcom.com/~kenl/ddig.htm

Weekly RPG Therapy Column: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg
Special "Ultima Online" Phase 1 Report:
http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg/rpgspecial.html

by Jo » Wed, 20 Aug 1997 04:00:00

>From what I've read of the patent, it seems as if the patent covered any
>live or lifelike material used in a video game on any media. The
>problem with the patent, is it seems to cover games and types of games
>which were already made before the patent existed. The early to mid
>eighties had a large number of laserdisk games, many of which resembled
>the rail shooters of today (like Rebel ***), and others were
>interactive moovies (Dragon's Lair, and Space Ace). There were likely
>some live action laserdisk games also. Also, on the Atari ST/Amiga
>platforms, there were games which used well rendered characters, like
>Barbarian, Dungeon Master/Chaos strikes Back, Oliterator, etc, most of
>which came out before the patent. I think if the patent is upheld, I'll
>try to patent the paper clip, or toilet paper.

And even before those games, live human actors were used to create the
data for graphical images in a number of Commodore-64 games. Epyx'
Summer Games was one, and there was a C64 golf game (can't remember
the name offhand) that was an early user of this method.

Joe McGinn
======================================================
Author of Inside LotusScript, available September 1997
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
======================================================

by **Pres** » Wed, 20 Aug 1997 04:00:00

: >
: > What this proves is that these companies can't make money
: > just off games anymore, so they have to stoop to supplementing
: > their income by suing other companes.
: >
: > Remember when Apogee was the 'big company on the net'
: > producing game after game after game? Those days seem now
: > to be just a distant memory.
: >
: > ToR
:
: Uh, I apologize if I misunderstood your post, but it sounds as if you
: are blaming Apogee for the lawsuit (supplementing their income...) --
: Apogee is actually the one being sued. I don't think the patent owner
: has been publicly identified yet, so we don't know if the owner even is
: a game company.
:
: Desslock

Actually, the patent owner has been identified -
you can read all the info on www.stomped.com's august 12th news (which is
now in the news archives) if you care! :)

And you don't have to apologize for misunderstanding what is obviously a
non-clued individual...

Steve

rec.autos.simulators

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?