rec.autos.simulators

by c » Fri, 05 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I have a friend I recently introduced to GPL (he races RT) and he fell
imediately in love. (he just paged me today with his number followed
by -1-28, he later explained it meant he got in the 28's at Monza!)
He asked me why there was no rain in GPL? I couldn't answer him so I
thought maybe someone here could....
Also, is tire wear included in the modeling? If so, or not, what other more
obscure things were modeled, that might not have been expected. Such as the
cold/warm tires sort of thing..
I appreciate all and any responses, Thanx!

speedracer

by **Smogbik** » Sat, 06 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Hi, c,

GPL does not model rain for the same reason that the GPL engine is not used for
current NASCAR sims ... inadequate cpu power available to cope with that many
variables ... perhaps in a future version, after Pentium4 ??? ... tire wear is
not modeled, because the tires available to racing teams in 1967 typically
lasted 2 or 3 race weekends, including practice sessions! ... tire temperature
IS modeled and seriously affects performance until the tires reach optimum
temperature ... in fact, the setup screen shows current tire temperatures on
inside edge, outside edge, and middle of tire, and this can be very useful in
determining the usefulness of the current settings for camber, inflation, etc.

Yr friend in the aether,
smogbike

> I have a friend I recently introduced to GPL (he races RT) and he fell
> imediately in love. (he just paged me today with his number followed
> by -1-28, he later explained it meant he got in the 28's at Monza!)
> He asked me why there was no rain in GPL? I couldn't answer him so I
> thought maybe someone here could....
> Also, is tire wear included in the modeling? If so, or not, what other more
> obscure things were modeled, that might not have been expected. Such as the
> cold/warm tires sort of thing..
> I appreciate all and any responses, Thanx!

> speedracer

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Sat, 06 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Sir,

(1) "Weather" (other than bright, sunny days) was not included in the
simulation because of Mr. Kaemmers doctrine that if it could not be modelled
correctly then it wasn't going to be included. Thank God he introduced that
commandment: GPL is hard enough to master. Imagine how easily a newbie
would've been turned of by turning on the rain!! :o)

2) The tyres are not susceptible to wear but they do get hot, which can
affect the performance.

Trusting that this is of help.

BK

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by **Richard G Cleg** » Sun, 07 Nov 1999 04:00:00

: Hi, c,

: GPL does not model rain for the same reason that the GPL engine is not used for
: current NASCAR sims ... inadequate cpu power available to cope with that many
: variables ...

Seems unlikely - the "rain variable" would simply modify tyre grip and
temperature. It would seem to be extremely small CPU overhead. I
imagine drawing it right would be a problem - particularely since
papy's graphics expertise seems to lag their high understanding of
race car dynamics.

--
Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

by **Dave Henri** » Sun, 07 Nov 1999 04:00:00

> : Hi, c,

> : GPL does not model rain for the same reason that the GPL engine is
> not used for current NASCAR sims ... inadequate cpu power available to > cope with that many variables ...

> Seems unlikely - the "rain variable" would simply modify tyre grip and
> temperature. It would seem to be extremely small CPU overhead. I
> imagine drawing it right would be a problem - particularely since
> papy's graphics expertise seems to lag their high understanding of
> race car dynamics.

> --
> Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving

I think you are right...My first sims were on the Amiga. GP1 had the
mist and spray...imagine my disappointment when ICR1 came out and all we
got for rainy conditions was a grey horizion. Interestingly, both the
original Indy 500 by Papyrus AND the EA Ferrari F1 sim used the mouse as
the principle steering device. I was a world champ in th EA sim, if I
limited my races to 3 laps...after that my engine would start to lose
power(I'm assuming from over-revving) and the pak would fly by.
dave henrie

by **Ian Parke** » Sun, 07 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I think it was because it couldn't be done to a satisfactory standard, ie.
just lowering grip levels and drawing the rain would not be enough.
Aquaplaning, puddles and drying racing lines would need to be modelled to
make it accurate IMO.

--
Ian Parker

UKGPL League
http://members.xoom.com/ukgpl/index.html
http://www.ukgpl.com
--

> : Hi, c,

> : GPL does not model rain for the same reason that the GPL engine is not
used for
> : current NASCAR sims ... inadequate cpu power available to cope with that
many
> : variables ...

> Seems unlikely - the "rain variable" would simply modify tyre grip and
> temperature. It would seem to be extremely small CPU overhead. I
> imagine drawing it right would be a problem - particularely since
> papy's graphics expertise seems to lag their high understanding of
> race car dynamics.

> --
> Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
> Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
> Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
> www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

by **Olav K. Malm** » Thu, 11 Nov 1999 04:00:00

> Sir,

> (1) "Weather" (other than bright, sunny days) was not included in the
> simulation because of Mr. Kaemmers doctrine that if it could not be modelled
> correctly then it wasn't going to be included. Thank God he introduced that
> commandment: GPL is hard enough to master. Imagine how easily a newbie
> would've been turned of by turning on the rain!! :o)

A good point, since to model rain would require some serious hardware. A
newbie who don't understand that to drive in the rain would be far more
difficult probably returned GPL anyway.

But think about blasting down the straights of Spa in a 20 player online race
and not see a thing in front of you but spray. :) Oh no, i'm back into the
Spa scenes of "Grand Prix" again :)))

--
Olav K. Malmin
remove spam when replying

by **Richard G Cleg** » Sat, 13 Nov 1999 04:00:00

: I think it was because it couldn't be done to a satisfactory standard, ie.
: just lowering grip levels and drawing the rain would not be enough.
: Aquaplaning, puddles and drying racing lines would need to be modelled to
: make it accurate IMO.

Yeah - but aquaplaning, puddles and a drying racing line are all just
altered grip levels aren't they? For aquaplaning you can have a pretty
simple rule like if the track is wet at that point and the speed is x
then reduce the grip level until you get to a dry bit. They're all
modifiers to tyre grip level. (If you think about it, the rain doesn't
really affect anything else but how the tyre sticks to the track).

--
Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

by **Ruud van Ga** » Sat, 13 Nov 1999 04:00:00

>: I think it was because it couldn't be done to a satisfactory standard, ie.
>: just lowering grip levels and drawing the rain would not be enough.
>: Aquaplaning, puddles and drying racing lines would need to be modelled to
>: make it accurate IMO.

> Yeah - but aquaplaning, puddles and a drying racing line are all just
>altered grip levels aren't they? For aquaplaning you can have a pretty
>simple rule like if the track is wet at that point and the speed is x
>then reduce the grip level until you get to a dry bit. They're all
>modifiers to tyre grip level. (If you think about it, the rain doesn't
>really affect anything else but how the tyre sticks to the track).

Easier said than done. Well, it takes time and perhaps it was chosen
not to devote the time to the product (at that time).

Ruud van Gaal
MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl
Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery

by **Richard G Cleg** » Sat, 13 Nov 1999 04:00:00

:> Yeah - but aquaplaning, puddles and a drying racing line are all just
:>altered grip levels aren't they? For aquaplaning you can have a pretty
:>simple rule like if the track is wet at that point and the speed is x
:>then reduce the grip level until you get to a dry bit. They're all
:>modifiers to tyre grip level. (If you think about it, the rain doesn't
:>really affect anything else but how the tyre sticks to the track).

: Easier said than done. Well, it takes time and perhaps it was chosen
: not to devote the time to the product (at that time).

Agreed - I'm sure it was a decision along the lines of "we could do
good wet weather effects but it would put us over budget and it would
be better to concentrate on getting the thing out" rather than "we could
do weather effects but the game would run too slow"

--
Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

by **Hena Hakkane** » Sat, 13 Nov 1999 04:00:00

> : I think it was because it couldn't be done to a satisfactory standard,
ie.
> : just lowering grip levels and drawing the rain would not be enough.
> : Aquaplaning, puddles and drying racing lines would need to be modelled
to
> : make it accurate IMO.

> Yeah - but aquaplaning, puddles and a drying racing line are all just
> altered grip levels aren't they? For aquaplaning you can have a pretty
> simple rule like if the track is wet at that point and the speed is x
> then reduce the grip level until you get to a dry bit. They're all

And how many clock cycles would that take? For each tire, calculate the load
on the tire, the wetness of the track at that particular moment, more than
100 times a second. There are degrees of wetness you know, let alone rivers
that dry out, racing line that is drier than the rest of the track no matter
if it's raining or not, and if it's not the line will try out faster than
the rest of the track.

I'd say modelling wet weather includes more than couple of if-then-else
lines ... That's how it's probably done in GP2 and MGPRS.

Hena

--
Best regards,
Hena H?kk?nen

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rec.autos.simulators

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