rec.autos.simulators

What causes tire load sensitivity?

J. Todd Wass

What causes tire load sensitivity?

by J. Todd Wass » Tue, 02 Apr 2002 10:47:53

What causes tire load sensitivity, or the change in friction coefficient with
load?  Is it primarily because the sliding zone in the tire changes, causing a
different amount to operate under the lower dynamic friction coefficient, or is
it a more microscopic effect, i.e., a small piece of tire *** pressed
against the ground would exhibit a change in friction coefficient with load?
If so, what are some possible causes for this?

Thanks,

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

My little car sim screenshots:
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Doug Millike

What causes tire load sensitivity?

by Doug Millike » Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:41:37

Probably everything you note, and more.  I've not seen anything convincing
that explains the whole thing (yet).  Seems to me that it's bound to be a
lot of interacting effects.  Plenty of work out there for anyone who
does tire mechanics...

-- Doug Milliken
   http://www.racesimcentral.net/;<--new book available


J. Todd Wass

What causes tire load sensitivity?

by J. Todd Wass » Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:18:44

 Thanks, Doug.  I see your new book is finally available for purchase, congrats
:0)

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

My little car sim screenshots:
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

J. Todd Wass

What causes tire load sensitivity?

by J. Todd Wass » Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:10:23

Doug,

  On another note, off the top of your head can you recall any typical load
sensitivity values?  Your book, "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics", has an example
discussing the effects of downforce and tire load sensitivity in combination on
an Indy car during high speed cornering.  In that example it uses .00064mu/lb
load sensitivity, which is set to a constant value after a certain high loading
point for simplification.

I'm also curious what the shape of these curves might look like.  When assuming
a linear drop in friction coefficient with load, one example tire that I read
about with a peak mu of 1.7 at almost 0 load drops to about .7 at 1000 lb load
(very roughly).  Adding just a few hundred more lb would cause mu to become
negative.

  So...  Do you suppose the load sensitivity curve might really be more "S"
shaped in general?  If so, that would be great news for me :0)

Looking at it from another perspective, the slope of the lateral force plot at
a given slip angle levels off as load is increased (page 29 of your book has
one of several examples of this).  Does the lateral force continue to climb
slowly at very high loads, or does it tend to level off, or perhaps even drop
at some point?  From this trend, perhaps I can approximate load sensitivity
curves more appropriately, as these curves vastly change the amount of
downforce I need to apply to my Champ car, for instance, to get 4.5g's
acceleration at a given high speed, and cause under/oversteer characteristics
to be effected much differently from spring/anti-rollbar changes.

Thanks,

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

My little car sim screenshots:
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

Stefano Casill

What causes tire load sensitivity?

by Stefano Casill » Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:30:31

New book??? When? Where? How much?

Tell me tell me...



Doug Millike

What causes tire load sensitivity?

by Doug Millike » Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:43:32

Typical, no.  Load sensitivity is all over the map, depending on the tire
_and_ the origin of the test data.  Obviously, mu won't go negative...

Same for the shape of the lateral force peak -- sometimes it peaks and
drops off slowly, sometimes it stays constant (always as measured in the
tire axis system!) and sometimes it continues to build slightly after the
"nominal peak".  And sometimes the "general shape" of the curve changes
with load.

This is why we often advise our customers to spend the big bucks and run
some tire tests.  While not an "accurate" simulation of the tire
performance on the track (for many reasons), at least with lab test data
you have something "representative" to start with.

-- Doug Milliken
   http://www.millikenresearch.com/olley.html  <-- errata page just added


Doug Millike

What causes tire load sensitivity?

by Doug Millike » Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:44:40

email & posted

http://www.millikenresearch.com/olley.html


> New book??? When? Where? How much?

> Tell me tell me...



> > Thanks, Doug.  I see your new book is finally available for purchase,
> congrats
> > :0)

> > Todd Wasson
> > ---
> > Performance Simulations
> > Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
> > Software
> > http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

> > My little car sim screenshots:
> > http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

J. Todd Wass

What causes tire load sensitivity?

by J. Todd Wass » Thu, 04 Apr 2002 04:46:05

Ahh...  Tires..  Such fun and predictable little devices ;-)  Thanks for your
input here, Doug.  It looks like I'm going into "speculative" modelling now..
:0)

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

My little car sim screenshots:
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

Ruud van Ga

What causes tire load sensitivity?

by Ruud van Ga » Thu, 04 Apr 2002 23:24:54


A good thing actually, since it will all feel realistic, as it's all
realistic and nothing can be said. ;-)

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

J. Todd Wass

What causes tire load sensitivity?

by J. Todd Wass » Fri, 05 Apr 2002 08:17:58

 Hehehe... :0)  

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

My little car sim screenshots:
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm


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