rec.autos.simulators

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AKhan226

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by AKhan226 » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

You couldn't have said it better.

Chris

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Chris » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Exactly right.....it does seem like it will be a good arcade racing
game...but a 60's Formula Sim---No Way!
Chris


>OK, I watched Chris Boll's replay run and then I watched some 60's F1 video
>that I have in my collection and watched highlights of the 1963 Spa and
>Monaco races on Speedvision. There is no comparison.  I have yet to Chris
>Boll's twitchy, drifting, tyre screeching drive exhibited from anyone of
>those drivers of that era.  You guys who want to crucify me for telling the
>truth about GPL are plainly in denial.

>GPL is nothing but a souped up arcade racer.  I dare any of you to find me
>footage of any F1 race of that era that exhibits the driving style you
>arcade racing dudes are so enamoured with.

ymenar

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by ymenar » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Chris T wrote

Arcade game ?? lol, this ain't Duke Nukem, my boy !

To me here is a <very> short list of arcade racing titles :

- C:PR (very bordeline)
- TOCA (very bordeline also)
- POD
- SEGA Rally
- Daytona USA
- ManxTT
- Ultimate Race Pro
- MTMadness (1 & 2)
- F1 (by Psygnosis)
- Carmageddon
- Andretti racing
- etc.. (at least 20 games snipped)

There is a distinction between arcade and simulator titles. They may have
the same goal (to simulate a racing experience) but they are pretty
different in all the other ways. From AI, to game engine, to graphics,
etc...

I know there is no black or white here, but most of us agree that some
simulators are ONLY simulators.  They can't even be considered as arcade
titles. You won't find them in 50 Arcade alleys ;-)

IndyCar Racing 2
Nascar Racing 2
F1 Racing Simulator
GP-Legends
Grand Prix 2

I have a list I made of "un-official" simulator titles... It's on my hard
drive.  Well, since we may have to redo the FAQ (tweak it a little bit),
there is going to be more depth on the arcade vs.simulator point.   I can
recall the TOCA thread we had about 1month ago on :

"How do you determinate what is and what is not a arcade-racing game" .
(vice-versa).

Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)

Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)

--"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

John

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by John » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

We are driving on one setup that we cannot modify on an ALPHA build. When we
get the final version people may be able to develop stable setups and the
driving model which is already awesome may be even better.

Thanks
John

Mik

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Mik » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:01:08 -0400, "Charles Mak"


>those drivers of that era.  You guys who want to crucify me for telling the
>truth about GPL are plainly in denial.

Hang tough Charles.... you aren't the only one who feels this way.
Byron Forbe

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Byron Forbe » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00


> OK, I watched Chris Boll's replay run and then I watched some 60's F1 video
> that I have in my collection and watched highlights of the 1963 Spa and
> Monaco races on Speedvision. There is no comparison.  I have yet to Chris
> Boll's twitchy, drifting, tyre screeching drive exhibited from anyone of
> those drivers of that era.  You guys who want to crucify me for telling the
> truth about GPL are plainly in denial.

> GPL is nothing but a souped up arcade racer.  I dare any of you to find me
> footage of any F1 race of that era that exhibits the driving style you
> arcade racing dudes are so enamoured with.

   Did the movie have in car shots? My in car shots look wild but the TV
views look quite normal to me. And don't forget us simmers can afford a
level of wildness that no real driver would ever dream of using -
particularly during a race.
John Walla

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by John Walla » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00


>On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:01:08 -0400, "Charles Mak"

>>those drivers of that era.  You guys who want to crucify me for telling the
>>truth about GPL are plainly in denial.

>Hang tough Charles.... you aren't the only one who feels this way.

What is this, a crusade? Since when did you have to "hang tough" to be
able to carry on a discussion or hold an opinion?

Sounds like you guys want an argument, not an exchange of opinions.

Cheers!
John

Jeff Vince

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Jeff Vince » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:01:08 -0400, "Charles Mak"


>OK, I watched Chris Boll's replay run and then I watched some 60's F1 video
>that I have in my collection and watched highlights of the 1963 Spa and
>Monaco races on Speedvision. There is no comparison.  I have yet to Chris
>Boll's twitchy, drifting, tyre screeching drive exhibited from anyone of
>those drivers of that era.  You guys who want to crucify me for telling the
>truth about GPL are plainly in denial.

   Remember, if you are talking about the early '60s ('61-'65), that
was the 1.5 liter formula, and the cars were far more docile.  1966
saw the introduction of the 3 liter formula, and the cars were much
more of a handful.

From the January 1963 Road & Track, talking about the 1962 USGP...

"It has also been a constructor's season, not a driver's one.  Tires
and suspensions are so good, *and power is so low*, that the top
drivers drive flat out, rarely if ever making a mistake."

   That sounds like the footage you describe (or the G2 or G3 cars in
GPL).

   Consider, real drivers of the era had years to perfect their craft
in similar machines.  We've been driving these wingless buggies on
bicycle wheels for less than a week.  Right now, banzai runs may be
the fastest, but I think that, as we improve, smooth laps will prove
the fastest.  Time (and the final release) will tell.


Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking...  Did he complain
to five or six postmasters last month?  Now, you must ask yourself one
question: "Do I feel lucky?"  Well, do you, punk?

Mik

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Mik » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00



>>>those drivers of that era.  You guys who want to crucify me for telling the
>>>truth about GPL are plainly in denial.
>>Hang tough Charles.... you aren't the only one who feels this way.

>What is this, a crusade? Since when did you have to "hang tough" to be
>able to carry on a discussion or hold an opinion?
>Sounds like you guys want an argument, not an exchange of opinions.
>Cheers!
>John

That's really funny John. A few threads earlier, I gave my opinion of
the game and you described me as the "self proclaimed barometer". Is
that the type of "exchange of opinions" your speaking?

Which side of your face will you talk out of when you reply to this
post?

The way I see it, I'm giving my opinion and your giving yours....
where does the crusade come into play?

Bruce Kennewel

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Bruce Kennewel » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Tell you what, "Charles Mak" or 'jvasquez' or whatever......

Would you please just take a step back from this "demo", take a deep breath and
contemplate the fact that this little tid-bit that Papyrus have thrown us is
OLD, may NOT be fully indicative of what the final driving model will be
capable of and does NOT allow us to adjust any settings.

Now, having contemplated those possibilities, approach the "demo" once again in
a different frame of mind and simply enjoy it for what it is.......a ***y
SAMPLE of what GP Legends will offer.


> OK, I watched Chris Boll's replay run and then I watched some 60's F1 video
> that I have in my collection and watched highlights of the 1963 Spa and
> Monaco races on Speedvision. There is no comparison.

---
Bruce.
(At home)
TimOl..

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by TimOl.. » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Of course, you do remember that those drivers had much better car
control (especially Jim Clark) and more practice at such a thing than
any of us, and also that this demo is based on a (pre-)beta version
of the finished product, that you cannot change any of the setup
settings, and that people have had the chance to mess with
this demo for only a few days, right?

You also realize that in '67, the cars had a high power to weight
ratio, no downforce, bad aerodynamics, bad brakes, and that sometimes,
when a car doesn't look too unstable from the outside, the driver
inside might be fighting to keep the car under control?

Richard Walk

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Richard Walk » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00



Any footage of the *67* season with the 3 litre class will do. 'The
History of Motor Racing: The 60s' from Duke amply shows the differences
between the 1.5 litre and 3 litre formats.

Cheers,
Richard

John Walla

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by John Walla » Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:00:00


>That's really funny John. A few threads earlier, I gave my opinion of
>the game and you described me as the "self proclaimed barometer". Is
>that the type of "exchange of opinions" your speaking?

No, I was responding to exactly the type of closed statement which
precludes discussion, hence my assertion of "self proclaimed
barometer".

Same as always.

When your opinion is not open to be changed yet you continue to shout,
then it's a crusade. Look at David's messages for example - he may not
be 100% keen on some aspects of GPL, but he is open to discuss them
and open to the opinions of others. Endless gainsaying had it's moment
of glory with Python, and is otherwise pretty pointless.

Perhaps saying what it is about GPL that's arcade like, what you
dislike, what driving problems there are may help in making GPL more
like what you want? If you convince Papyrus of the validity of your
concerns and that GPL does have errors then I can assure you they will
be attended to. I can also assure you that it will not be easy,
knowing the people who had input to GPL and who know the handling and
driving to be accurate.

Cheers!
John

Mik

Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Mik » Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:00:00



>>The way I see it, I'm giving my opinion and your giving yours....
>>where does the crusade come into play?

>When your opinion is not open to be changed yet you continue to shout,
>then it's a crusade. Look at David's messages for example - he may not
>be 100% keen on some aspects of GPL, but he is open to discuss them
>and open to the opinions of others. Endless gainsaying had it's moment
>of glory with Python, and is otherwise pretty pointless.
>Perhaps saying what it is about GPL that's arcade like, what you
>dislike, what driving problems there are may help in making GPL more
>like what you want? If you convince Papyrus of the validity of your
>concerns and that GPL does have errors then I can assure you they will
>be attended to. I can also assure you that it will not be easy,
>knowing the people who had input to GPL and who know the handling and
>driving to be accurate.

Points you obviously missed:
- I never called GPL arcade like.
- I never said it wasn't the closet thing to realistic (actually I
don't care)
- I did say what "I" thought GPL's problems were.(It's too difficult
to run consistent laps)
- I did say how I think it can/is done better(GP2's focus on racing
vs. Papyrus's focus on driving)
- I never shouted.... and god knows I don't post nearly as much as
you.
- I even said I like the way Papyrus's model works on Ovals.

I think I covered all the bases for a valid argument. What more do I
need do?

As far as changing my opinion..... when I like the way it drives, I'll
change my opinion. It's a game... It's not real.... I don't care how
realistic the model is. If it's not fun to drive and race, I won't
like it.

Why are you allowed to tout how great the game is yet I can't give my
opinion? Is it because I'm not one of the "people who had input to GPL
and who know the handling and driving to be accurate".


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