rec.autos.simulators

I agree with much of what he said and have the same hopes for online sim
racing as he does, but some of what Scott is wishful for is actually already
in existence. Just not so much in the strictly hard core sim community. His
article doesn't mention what's been happening over the past couple of years
with the with the more arcade type of titles. For example, MS's arcade
racers such as MTM2, Motocross Madness, and now Midtown Madness have a very
high number of players, and sponsored tournaments are regular. It's easy to
find competitors at the Zone which is extremely well organize. Microprose is
going to use the Zone for it's multiplayer option in GP500.

I see companies such as MS as already headed in the direction that Scott and
myself would like online racing to go but if it's to happen with the more
sim oriented titles, one simple thing must occur and that is that the
turnout for a particular sim tournament will have to be on the level of the
MTM2 tournament I mention above. Otherwise, online sim racing will probably
stay unorganized. It's really that simple. Online racing has been growing
very rapidly and becoming more organized, just not so much with sim titles.
Maybe because sim drivers are older and a little more reluctant to embrace
something new?

I've been racing online for two years now and what's interesting is that
even though there are 6 billion people on the planet, I often see the same
names pop up today that I first raced against (or discussed online racing
with) two years ago when racing with a sim title. Again, the number of sim
racers HAS to grow before we see professional online racing, with sponsors,
prizes, and spectators.

There's no reason to ignore the online arcade racing community and what it
can teach us. It should be used as an example. As I said in another post the
other day, the racing among the best drivers is just as difficult and
competitive as with the pure sims, and they are just as serious and
dedicated to their title. I say this because I've split my time over the
past two years by racing against many of the top sim drivers (names many of
us are familiar with), and also top arcade racers such as in the MTM2 Vegas
Tourney where I placed tied for 5th. I mention my experience only because I
saw NO difference in the mindset and talent of the top level, serious,
drivers. Everyone wants the SAME things in online racing. There's no reason
to think that as sim racers we need to invent online racing. It's already
going along nicely with the arcade racers, and sim racers are simply lagging
behind. I remember just a year ago that many here at r.a.s. were VERY
skeptical about online racing and didn't seem too interested in what it
could deliver. Today, most seem to have slowly opened up to it's
possiblities, but we are now way behind the arcade titles in organization
and numbers.

David G Fisher

        Very well put!!  Just my opinion, but, the reason why the hard core Sim
drivers are reluctant in setting up a good organization is because they
would rather see someone else do it.  Every time I mention the what Sim
racing can become all I get is "It's just a game", "Now go and get a
life". :-(

Sim Racing Mag
http://www.simracingmag.com/

Race Communications Association
http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html

Holodyne Engineering

Mystic Music

(have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

We have discussed this issue before and Ive actually talked to my neighbor who is
an attorney.  It was just casual talk out on the front porch but between us we
raised about 20 - 30 issues to be solved just on the surface.  The resources needed
would be exceptional without backing from a deep pocket source ;)

Scott
PA-Scott
G.T.S. Racing - http://www.GTS-Racing.com
High Gear Editor - "The View" - http://www.simracingnews.com

--
Scott B. Husted
ICQ# 4395450

Obviously this has an impact on the physics of driving etc, but
fundamentally there are things which are easier to implement in an
arcade racer than in a sim. Arcade racers tend toward "knockout" type
one-off races, whereas to have a meaningful online and organised sim
area it would need to incorporate a league (with all associated
administration). Then too the bumping and boring that is part and
parcel of an online arcade race is generally not tolerated in a sim
race (again mirroring real life) - this too must be adminstrated and
punishments meted out.

This trend can be carried through to any aspect of these products, and
goes a long way to explaining why online arcade communities are easier
to develop than sim. In GPL you need to model a standing start since
that's what happens in F1 - that brings a lot of problems, and leagues
having to create rules, guidelines or simply change altogether to
rolling starts. In something like POD there are no requirements since
there is no reality, the developers can just follow whatever is best.
This bringing together of reality and what is feasible is a
constriction in sims which is less of a drawback in arcade racers.

I share your desire though, I would love to be able to turn on my
computer and click an icon to be taken to the "virtual track" to
participate in a proper race event, with league points, penalties etc.
With computers these days almost always being sold with a modem and an
internet account it is becoming much more feasible to have such a
thing, but at present most sims are way too fragmented in terms of how
to connect, quality of connection, direct access from within the sim,
how to find other communities etc. TEN and The Zone are far and away
the best ideas, particularly The Zone which is an integral part of
CPR, MTM etc and accessed from within the game. TEN is still something
N2 was bolted onto and a customer could happily play N2 for years and
never know about TEN.

Numbers is the critical thing. GPL is, IMO, the best online racing sim
available, but again VROC, GSB etc are not integrated with the
product. Buying GPL will not bring you to these racing communities -
so too with N2, where buying the game will not cause you to arrive at
TEN.

A real crossover product would be, for example, if GP3 or N3/4 were to
include some _integrated_ online play, where the game would not only
detect an internet connection (or the means to make one) but upon
selecting that option would bring you into a SpyBoy like environment.
That would not only improve things for us by increasing the
participants, but would hugely improve the enjoyment of the game (I
still recall my shock at finding F1GP communities online for the first
time and realising that, no, I wasn't actually that fast and had a LOT
of practice to do!). Even better would be an integrated front-end that
allowed league organisation, knockout tournaments and the like,
although that would most probably require some server software and
someone to organise it which in turn implies a membership fee etc. I
think it's difficult to automate anything beyond pick-up races.

Still, some good thoughts though. Key thing is that I think only
proper organisation will bring "non-fans" to the online groups. Fans
of the genre and of online racing will mess around looking for
software, installing, tweaking and the like, but people looking for a
good product will need to be led there. That is certainly what arcade
racers (particularly MS ones) are doing well at the moment.

Cheers!
John

Excellent article in High Gear!

I tend to believe that "racing is racing!"  It doesn't matter if its a real car
on a real track.....or a simulated car on a simulated track.  All of the same
"elements" are there for both!  You could take Jeff Gordon and Mark Martin
(substitute any two of your fav drivers)....put them down on your kitchen floor
with two "Hot Wheels" cars.......they are "racers" and they'd find a way to have
a competition right there on your floor!  Put them behind a simulator...they'll
have even more fun!

Simulated racing on computers is here to stay!  It will become a full-fledged
e-sport!

We're all just trying to make that happen sooner.....rather than later!

Excuse me now......I think I'll wander on up to the "holodeck" and run some laps
at Indy!

See you guys later............

Tom Pabst

"Sim" racing has to be SERIOUS. In order for it draw the numbers you say it needs,
it must reward the participant. It takes a lot more investment in  a "sim" to be
competitive than it does say a not so simmy racing or truck game.

For the payoff be there the system in which the participant is using must be very
high quality. Sim racing has more demands on the platform than an arcade style
racing game. Warping and drops must be almost non existent and the races must have
a fairly large field for it to be worthy of "sim" status.

To date only one system was even close to this and it got unplugged.

I do believe the audience is there and waiting, for what is available to this point
it not cutting the mustard.

Mick in Tampa

http://CNSRL.COM

They need to put some greenbacks on the table for the NRO. They also miss
out a great opportnity by not attending each and every Nascar event with a
Papy tent that has at least 8 pc systems hooked up letting fans drive in an
organized bracket at each venue. Up to a finally before the actaul nascar
race event. This would be huge marketing here.

BH

No, it doesn't have to be "serious".  And no, sim racing doesn't need to
have rewards.  Gee, that investment you just put in should be reward enough.
But nonetheless, no sim racing in general doesn't need rewards.  However,
high brow leagues (for whatever sim) to be successful, yes rewards, prizes,
etc are needed.  And no, you dont have to give out cash, etc.  Many people
race rc/cars and their reward is a good day of racing, a trophy, etc.

I would agree there...that you need a high quality stable system before you
start doing any large payouts.  And no, I think that both sim racing and
arcade racing demand the same type of stable platform.

I've yet to see one, even the one you are referring to.

Ok, perhaps not for you.  But it seems many people are enjoying racing both
on the NROS and through VROC/SpyBoy.

David G Fisher

Almost forgot. I can't really agree with this point. When I raced MTM2
against the top level drivers, there was almost no bumping (none
intentional) even though it was an off-road race. The reason there was no
bumping was because the drivers were turning lap times which were within
tenths of a second of each other (just like with sims),  and also because in
online racing you can never be 100% sure the vehicle you are tangling with
is really there (no matter how good the connection), due to warping. You
couldn't take the chance because if you guessed wrong, your race was
instantly over.

David G Fisher

BH

I think the sim racing is a little more demanding. I have played "games" over
the internet like R6  and it was fun, there was lag but my expectations were not
high since it was a "game" and I had a blast.

I enjoy NROS too, but it is not as good as the Beta system to which I become
acustomed to. The current state of the NROS system is stunting the growth of the
NROS badly.

There is an audience there and waiting, whether it numbers enough and
is coherent enough in thinking and expectation to constitute a viable
market is quite a different thing. Some people were happy to pay for
the Nirvana that was Hawaii, most were not. Some like GPL's die-hard
approach, others do not. We don't yet know if there is a sweet-spot,
far less what it is.

Cheers!
John

Cheers!
John