rec.autos.simulators

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

papa..

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by papa.. » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Well we now have tire temps across the tire and when they get it
working correctly in F1 Racing sim will be quite a helpful aid.

Currently it seems broken as changing camber sometimes affect temps
and most times doesnt....wierdly I cannot get the inside of the front
tires to at least come within 2 degrees of the outside...no matter
what I do...strange...but Im still working. My Estoril Setup is now my
favorite setup....as I have finally started getting it to turn in
properly in high speed corners. The first turn complex is so cool to
go thru now...at first it was a bear....of course the final turn is
still giving me fits. Being delicate with the wheel seems to pay off.

PAPA DOC

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand
Infamous
Pink Flamingo Pilot...

William Richards

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by William Richards » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00


>Currently it seems broken as changing camber sometimes affect temps
>and most times doesnt....wierdly I cannot get the inside of the front
>tires to at least come within 2 degrees of the outside...no matter
>what I do...strange...but Im still working. My Estoril Setup is now my

Don't forget that all suspension setting play a role in tire temps...

Bill

--------

"NASCAR is the Professional Wrestling of Motorsport."
                                    -Me-

Richard Walk

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by Richard Walk » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00


>Currently it seems broken as changing camber sometimes affect temps
>and most times doesnt....wierdly I cannot get the inside of the front
>tires to at least come within 2 degrees of the outside...no matter
>what I do...strange...but Im still working.

I've also noticed that it doesn't affect the temps as much as I would
expect. *However* it does seem to affect the handling of the car pretty
much in line with my expectations. Since the only point of evening out
the temps is to try and get balanced tyre wear (and even then it's rarely
the case that the temps should be exactly the same) I'm happy enough to
gauge the tyre wear by reference to the wear gauge and lap times. After
all the latter of these is the only one that really matters ;-)

Cheers,
Richard

Sean Blac

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by Sean Blac » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00



Why not go up to Oxford Street and get it from Electronics Boutique,
then if you don't like it you can take it back. I'm sure you won't need
to though it is nothing like TOCA.
--
Sean Black

John Sherida

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by John Sherida » Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Ah,  well yes I  have.  Schumacher in the rain at the Nurburgring when he was 4s
a lap faster than everyone else was having fun booting it out of corners
completely sideways.  From memory at Canada a few years back Alesi was getting
some good sideways action happening at the hairpin.


> HELLO.  Have you ever saw a Formula 1 car do a powerslide? WTF   If you like
> powerslides, get a sprint car sim.  Formula 1 cars don't slide, they just
> go.  The ability to powerslide just shows that these sims just aren't too
> realistic after all.  I hate that the fastest way around a track is to slide
> around a turn.  In real life,  you'd be crying mama as you spun into a wall.

papa..

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by papa.. » Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:00:00

I would like scales....yes I know thats a serious nitpick....but hey
Im in a nit picking mood. Scales might be fun to play with....four
wheel scales....and where is the toe adjustments...Im not joking..I
have the Race to Win series of books and plan on opening them up to
help me get some serious setups.

Pierre

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand
Infamous
Pink Flamingo Pilot...

John Walla

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by John Walla » Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:00:00



>I've also noticed that it doesn't affect the temps as much as I would
>expect. *However* it does seem to affect the handling of the car pretty
>much in line with my expectations. Since the only point of evening out
>the temps is to try and get balanced tyre wear

Of greater importance is the potential for increased grip, no?

If your temps and wear are more pronounced on the outside of the tyre
it tells you that that area of the tyre is being asked to do more work
by carrying a disproportionate amount of the work of the tyre. By
evening out the temps you can make better use of the full width of the
tyre, increasing overall grip and improving wear.

That's not always the case, and average lap-times over the distance of
your race fuel-load will be the ultimate guide as always.

Cheers!
John

Richard Walk

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by Richard Walk » Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:00:00


>I would like scales....yes I know thats a serious nitpick....but hey
>Im in a nit picking mood. Scales might be fun to play with....four
>wheel scales....and where is the toe adjustments...Im not joking..I
>have the Race to Win series of books and plan on opening them up to
>help me get some serious setups.

Careful, you'll be accused of taking this all too seriously ;-)
Personally, I love the fact that the sims have now got to the point where
we can take the info in the books by Carroll Smith & others and apply it
to the sims <g>

Cheers,
Richard

Richard Walk

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by Richard Walk » Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:00:00



>Of greater importance is the potential for increased grip, no?

Yes, but...

...even temperature is not a very good measure of achieving maximum grip.
I'm going to quote here from Carroll Smith's 'Drive to Win' since he
probably knows far more about this than the combined knowledge of this
ng:

"Some racers try to set optimum camber by measuring tire temperature in
the pits, adjusting camber until they achieve an even temperature
distribution across the surface of the tire. This does not work. A
properly inflated tire will give its best performance when it measures 10
to 15 degrees F. hot on the inside."

He goes on to say that camber should be set to obtain maximum cornering
performance - hence your initial statement is correct <g>

Cheers,
Richard

Goy Larse

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by Goy Larse » Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:00:00




> >Of greater importance is the potential for increased grip, no?

> Yes, but...

> >If your temps and wear are more pronounced on the outside of the tyre
> >it tells you that that area of the tyre is being asked to do more work
> >by carrying a disproportionate amount of the work of the tyre. By
> >evening out the temps you can make better use of the full width of the
> >tyre, increasing overall grip and improving wear.

> ...even temperature is not a very good measure of achieving maximum grip.
> I'm going to quote here from Carroll Smith's 'Drive to Win' since he
> probably knows far more about this than the combined knowledge of this
> ng:

> "Some racers try to set optimum camber by measuring tire temperature in
> the pits, adjusting camber until they achieve an even temperature
> distribution across the surface of the tire. This does not work. A
> properly inflated tire will give its best performance when it measures 10
> to 15 degrees F. hot on the inside."

> He goes on to say that camber should be set to obtain maximum cornering
> performance - hence your initial statement is correct <g>

I`m going to put my foot in my mouth here probably, but how about
braking distances ?

If you go too far on camber wont that affect your contact surface when
it`s time to use the anchors, and more importantly for this group, does
our latest sims modell this ???

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

papa..

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by papa.. » Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Ive been really screwing around with setups at Estoril cause its such
a good testing track. I now have even temps across all tires and my
times have never been quicker...(probably slow to y'all but 1:21 is
quick for me)...but I still feel like Im not getting all I can out of
the car....and this tweaking is a blast.

But alas I cannot find my Race to Win series in the house...so will
have to go to the storage room and dig around. This series of books is
probably akin to Fighter Combat for Jet Sim Pilots....a bible of
sorts. Really well done and Carroll Smith does a fantastic job of
making the obscure clear. Bought them so long ago when I considered a
serious attempt at becoming wonderful at driving. <VBG>

Pierre

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand
Infamous
Pink Flamingo Pilot...

John Walla

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by John Walla » Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:00:00



>...even temperature is not a very good measure of achieving maximum grip.
>I'm going to quote here from Carroll Smith's 'Drive to Win' since he
>probably knows far more about this than the combined knowledge of this
>ng:

Two things...

1) Carroll Smith is talking about real world situations, affected by
issues which may or may not be modelled in a sim. The real world
information was found by informed speculation and by trial and error,
and that is how it needs to be found in sims too (or Dave Kaemmer
could just tell us exactly what is modelled and what will work!).

2) Even given parity of forces acting on the car between real world
and sim, Carroll does not tell us (or perhaps only you do not tell
us!) when the temperatures were taken, and with what equipment. A
slowing down lap could affect temperatures to be measured in the pits
(since the car and tyres would not be operating under full load), or
perhaps they are comparing on-line realtime data as we are. Without
knowing that apples are being compared to apples it is difficult to
draw conclusions, for me at least.

Additionally, given that Prost and Senna had different setup ethos
(and driving styles) and Hill and Villeneuve also different styles of
driving and setup, and both were with the same team and equipment, I'd
say it's not a subject on which anyone can claim to have definitive
knowledge. If the clock tells you it works, then it works, although to
be honest I doubt that most of us would be consistent enough in
driving over a full fuel load to be able to tell the difference.

Cheers!
John

Greg Cisk

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by Greg Cisk » Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Actually  I agree with you :-)

--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.


>Sorry, it was F1 Sim. The only game I play now ( except for a bit of GTA)

>F1 's do slide, people here just haven't played it anywhere near enough to
make
>a real judgement on it's realism. This game is amazing.

>Oh yeah, I watch & tape every GP (for 6 years), and went to Adelaide in
1994.
>Nothing comes close to this game's realism.


>> Um which game did you do this with? I almost assume it was GP2.

>>snip

Suppresso

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by Suppresso » Sun, 01 Feb 1998 04:00:00

Sorry, it was F1 Sim. The only game I play now ( except for a bit of GTA)

F1 's do slide, people here just haven't played it anywhere near enough to make
a real judgement on it's realism. This game is amazing.

Oh yeah, I watch & tape every GP (for 6 years), and went to Adelaide in 1994.
Nothing comes close to this game's realism.


> Um which game did you do this with? I almost assume it was GP2.

>snip

Richard Walk

F1RS is Awfull! Version 2

by Richard Walk » Sun, 01 Feb 1998 04:00:00


>If you go too far on camber wont that affect your contact surface when
>it`s time to use the anchors, and more importantly for this group, does
>our latest sims modell this ???

To some extent this is true - very true in fact for bias ply tyres. But
radial tyres don't lose much longitudinal performance (i.e. braking /
accelerating) with increased camber. [this is paraphrasing Carroll Smith]

As to whether the sims model this correctly, or even at all, depends on
what the developer believes is right and whether they programmed it right
according to that belief ;-)

FWIW, excessive camber in N2 seems to reduce top speeds. I'm not sure
about ICR2 (I don't think I was ever consistent enough to be able to tell
<g>), GP2 doesn't model variable camber at all and I haven't experimented
in F1RS as I find values around -7 / -8 to be perfectly adequate.

Cheers,
Richard


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