rec.autos.simulators

: I have both ICR2 and GP2.  The latter drives like the car is on rails.  The
: former drives like a big cadillac on ice with summer tires -- very tricky
: to control.  Does a real Indycar drive so miserably compared to an F1 car?
: I have to be so precise, so delicate with the brakes, throttle and steering
: with ICR2, whereas with GP2, I can jab and stab and yank my way around the
: track without the car sliding into the barrier.  

Well, I'll put my toe into the water...  Or is that head into the noose?

There is no pleasing everybody (and sometimes it seems anybody).  Both
games^h^h^h^h^h sims have their strengths and weaknesses.  Alot of what
many see as deficiencies in the sim are really deficiencies in the game
controller used.  Since I upgrade from my soundcard joystick port to a
Thrustmaster ACM card, I find both ICR2 & GP2 more realistic.  

With ICR2, the car always seemed to be extremely hard to control, even
when not being pushed to the limit.  Alot of it was setup, but most of
it turned out to be game controller sensitivity.  With the 1.02 patch,
traction was greatly enhanced.  I can now find a decent setup and manage
fairly consistant fast times on the tracks I've practiced.  Also, being
able to run 30 fps (using the Intergraph 3d card), improves handling
immensely.  However, ICR2 cars still seem to be balanced on a spindle at
the center of gravity.  I still find it hard to believe that a mere
brush against another car at low speeds should cause the car to fly
madly out of control.  Hard braking is not modelled correctly (if at
all).

Before the ACM, I had to set the sensitivity levels in GP2 to high (or
is that low) levels to get a good clean overall control of the car.  
Since installing the ACM I find that I can loosen up the sensitivity and
still have even control of steering, braking, accelerating.  This has
greatly reduced the "slot car" feel I had experienced in GP2.  However,
I still feel that GP2 offers a little too much "stability" in the
physics of handling.  There is also the "flatness" of the tracks in GP2.
Whereas ICR2 has camber and off-camber corners, all corners in GP2 are
flat.  I think if this had been modelled into the sim, I would find
controlling the car a little bit more realistic.  Then again, GP2 has
curb effects where ICR2 has track vs. grass/dirt, but no curbs.  Since
being able to run ICR2 at 30 fps, I also believe my control in GP2
suffers from the fluctuating "real time" clock tied to the graphics of
GP2.

For me, and this is strictly personal, I have always gravitated back to
Papyrus' sims over Geoff Crammonds'.  I enjoy Geoff's work and
appreciate it, but both World Circuit (GP1) & GP2, are close seconds to
the enjoyment I received from Indy 500, ICR1, NASCAR, ICR2, NASCAR2.
Some of this has to do with the simulation and some of it has to do with
the more competitive racing not found in F1.

Until I hear from someone who has raced both series in real life and
spent some real seat time in the sim versions, I guess we will have this
little conversation over and over again.

For those of you who have posted that they need to find an "easier" sim
to learn, drive NASCAR Racing 2 in arcade mode.  I think it should fit
the bill you are looking for.

Well, my 2 cents worth...
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

... writing about GP2

I used to find the same thing absolutely annoying, but than I discovered that
with different settings (dampers especially) the problem can be eliminated.
I am no expert at all, but I'd suggest you to try to look for some help on
GP2 advanced settings (the manual is not enough, for me).

BYe,
Luca

Michael,

I agree with your discussion of the differences.  The one important point
you may have missed is GP2's very powerful autobraking feature at the
rookie level.  This is really a crash avoidance feature, as unless you flat
out aim to crash, it will pretty much keep you on track while learning the
game -- at a hefty price in lap times.

Personally, I think it is a creative way to make a road racing sim
accessible to new players.  However, it would have been good if GP2 had a
lesser degree of braking assistance, like that in ICR2, N1 and N2, for help
at higher game levels.  To me this is a controller issue, as the assistance
makes joystick or keyboard play easier.

I would note, though, that ICR2 does feel awfully twitchy in comparison to
GP2.  A lot of what people might be complaining about relates to the fact
that you have to relearn ICR2's feel after running GP2.

-- Al

As for the Sim side, having turned off steering help in GP2, I find it
just as hard as ICR2, if not harder.  Of course, since GP2 I haven't
played ICR2 1.02, and probably never will again.

Hmmm, that makes alot of sense. Good to hear form someone who actually
drives a race car. That I feel would give us the best opinion..

Eric

<snip>
: I would note, though, that ICR2 does feel awfully twitchy in comparison to
: GP2.  A lot of what people might be complaining about relates to the fact
: that you have to relearn ICR2's feel after running GP2.

No kidding, I was about ready to chuck ICR2 when I came back to it after
months of dedicated GP2 racing.  I couldn't get the damn thing to turn
or brake, and there just wasn't any get up and go (turbo lag?).  But,
after a few hours or re-learning I was acutally doing better than
before.  I found that I had learned a few things from driving GP2 that
translated to driving ICR2.  Especially braking.  Since Papy doesn't
really model the locking of the brakes like GP2 does, it's hard to judge
when one is braking too hard.  I find that I can jam the brakes in ICR2,
hold it for a split second and then let up just a little.  My braking
and control has improved quite a bit.  Too bad I have to use my
imagination to recreate what is so apparent in GP2 under heavy braking.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

"A friend of mine suggested I try America Online, I said 'But I already
have
a computer...'"

Agreed.  Agreed.  Agreed.  But would it really kill anyone to make a
MORON MODE for those that would just like to treat it like an arcade
game?  I love ICR2, but know quite a few people that won't buy it due
to the difficulty.

RaceFan

I found the same thing, GP2 has really improved my car control.

When I went back to my favorite ICR2 track Elkhart Lake, I managed to break
my old track record for that track without needing much practice,
and this was after not playing ICR2 for a while, I think GP2 has really
improved my car handling skills, probably the way it models brake lockup
as well as having to learn to modulate the throttle when the car is
off balance such as when bouncing off/over curbs etc.

Sure is different from my old techniques for approaching a turn in ICR2:

1. Watch for the latest possible braking point.
2. Stomp on the brakes all the way, and crank the wheel hard.
3. Hope that you weren't barely off on your timing and the car won't go
        into spin mode.

I can now more confidently trail brake into the turn, carrying some corner
speed in a semi-controlled manner. Still gotta love that Elkhart Lake
track, I wish there was some way that the FIA would have a U.S. Formula 1 GP
there, I know the drivers would love the track.

Also found that my stage times on Need For Speed have also improved.

I'm hoping Papyrus models wheel lockups in their upcoming Classic F1 sim.

Cheers.

--John
--
 Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks.
------------------------------+--------------------------

  Seattle, Washington USA.    |    http://www.cool.com/~jsilva

: Agreed.  Agreed.  Agreed.  But would it really kill anyone to make a
: MORON MODE for those that would just like to treat it like an arcade
: game?  I love ICR2, but know quite a few people that won't buy it due
: to the difficulty.

Papyrus did just this in NASCAR Racing 2 (Arcade Mode).

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

A part from that, I have the impression that Elkarth Lake and all the Indy tracks in
general are too narrow for F1 cars.
I surely hope that they change the regulations so to allow more overtaking in the future,
admitting that everything they say about the impossibility of staying close to the
preceding car is true.

Bye,
Luca

Cheers,

Pooch

                                          O-iiiii-O

I understand that the owner is very keen on getting a GP staged there but
at the moment it falls way too short of the FIA safety standards :(

As last year's CART race showed there just isn't enough room for error or
run off to catch the errors for an F1 car - they're not quite as tough as
those Indy cars ;-)

It would be great to have a GP there though. It is a great track and if
only those safety improvements can be made I look forward to being able
to run it in GP3 <g>

Cheers,

Richard

Using trail braking, you pick a later braking point into the corner
start braking and turning into the apex of the corner while still carrying
this extra speed, and do the remainder of your braking in this first part
of the corner, then accelerate out of the corner after you hit the apex
as you would normally.

The advantage of trail braking being that you can often outbrake your
opponent if they are not also trail braking, due to you being able to
wait for a later brake point, and also that you are able to carry a bit
more speed for just that bit extra time that you are entering the corner,
almost as if you are stretching out the straight.

The opinions on whether it actually works depends on who you talk to,
I find that it helps especially when racing the computer AI and has
helped out my lap times.

One other braking technique that sounds very promising was one I read
in an interview of Max Papis, the Indycar driver and a former great
IMSA driver :

                "The most sensible approach you have to do
                 when you run in a car that you don't know, is
                 not to outbrake the car. Always try to be very
                 smooth and gentle on the brake, instead of
                 trying to go faster [by] braking later, I try to go
                 faster by braking less. Always less and less, and,
                 you know, always braking a little bit further
                 down but not braking strong - always braking
                 less, to be able to carry good speed. This is
                 basically what I do."
Original Interview at:
http://www.speedcenter.com/interviews/sc_i0823.html

Somehow, I am not that comfortable at any tracks yet where I can consistently
be that smooth.

Hope that helps, and these tips are only from my sim racing, one day
I hope to test these theories out in a real racing school. The beauty
of racing sims is that you can try these out for yourself without having
to risk real equipment and bodily harm :-)

Cheers.

--John
--
 Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks.
------------------------------+--------------------------

  Seattle, Washington USA.    |    http://www.cool.com/~jsilva

On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 19:17:13 +0000, Luca Varani

F1 is probably much safer than CART these days, but that has more to do
with circuit safety rather than the cars. With CART all the safety
aspects go into the cars - there's no kitty litter at an oval!

It was only after Senna's death that F1 woke up to the danger of bits of
the car breaking off and hitting the driver. They've addressed it some
what, but they still have a lot to learn from Indycars in this area.

Nah, only need them wide enough to take one car these days :(

Here, here! Get rid of that plank, reduce the amount of front wing and
reduce braking power. Lets see them slide into the corners and out brake
each other - just like CART really <g>

F1 will always be my #1 love, but CART races are more fun to watch.

And boy am I looking forward to Papy's 60's sim. If it is done right, we
will all learn a lot more about what open wheel racing should be about
<bg>

Cheers,
Richard