rec.autos.simulators

If we want to simulate small, local tracks, or larger tracks and not put any
copyright infringement, where would there be a problem. I'm not saying
rebuilding Daytona and putting it on the web. That would obviously by wrong.
But our own creations with no copyright infringements.
I can understand the fine line Papyrus is walking with the legalese, but what
can and can't we do?

I understand Intellectual Property and it is important. However, modifying
tracks to me is borderline. It would only enhance the game and raise Papy's
popularity.

The game is great, but I guess there are always other tracks people would love
to see :) After all, whats a Nascar Season without 3 of the major tracks??

Richard Scott

says...

If someone made "Jim Bob's 1/2 mile oval, I doubt Papy would mind as long as they made it totally by
scratch. Not a modified Bristol or Martinsville. ANd if you'd been around for a while, you'd know if
Papy released their track editor, 99.95% of the prople couldn't use it without four years of
training.

Mike

Jim's statement here is being misinterpreted by the follow on posts here.
The statement here is not that producing a home made track that is not
using Papyrus' bits is infringing - but rather that producing a home built
track for Daytona, Indy or any other actual speedway may infringe on the
track's copyrights.  I believe that producing a Thompson Speedway for
N2 would cause no problems - unless Thompson Speedway complained - which
I doubt they would.  Producing a high profile track like Daytona would of
course
cause problems.  Papyrus MUST play be the rules or there existing license
with
drivers/tracks etc. would be at risk.  This is an untenable situation for
Papy - since
no one would buy racing sims without real drivers or tracks - now would
they ?
Papy MUST thereby support a track in their action against someone producing
an unlicensed replica of the track.

In summary - producing low profile tracks for N2 will likely cause no
problems at
all.  Heck - its just free advertising for the track.  I suspect an author
of such a
track could even contact the speedway and get clearance to distribute it.
Daytona
could never give this clearance due to their contract with Sega.

/THansen

Yes, that's a good clarification of a point which I glossed over. A
completely original track, using no Papyrus intellectual property,
doesn't infringe on us, and at that point, you must only concern
yourself with the owner(s) of the real track you are modelling (if
applicable).

Thanks, Tom. (for pointing out the source of (some of) the confusion)
---Jim, Papyrus

I really hate to even get in on this because I am tired of hearing about
the
lack of certain tracks in the game.  From all the posts I have seen
here, there are
basically two problems that I see that prevents us from having these
tracks.

#1)  By distributing, Papyrus included, sim tracks with the likeness of
<insert
     track name> (I won't say the D word) you are infringing on the
copyright
     of the track's.

#2)  By distributing sim tracks that are derivatives of the originals
you
     are infringing upon papyrus copyrights.

Solution:  
As Jim S. has already said "editting tracks is not (in and
of itself) illegal".  Therefore, Papyrus should develop and release a
track editor.  It is in everybodys best interest, Papyrus included,
in my opinion.  I don't buy the argument that it would be too difficult
for people to use.  I just downloaded an editor for another racing game
(MTM).
Either that or they could release specifications for the track files to
enable
somebody else to develop one.
This would solve both problems.  With a track editor, users could create
their
own tracks in whatever likeness they choose as long as they did not
distribute
them.  If somebody did distribute one, they would be at risk of
copyright
violations.
What I would like to know is, what is Papyrus's "real" hangup with
creating one.

Brad

Since I'm bored....

Can't somebody build a track with similarities of Daytuna, without any props
saying it is as such.

Somebody else build billboards and logos with Daytuna on it. I doubt anybody
has the rights to the word Daytuna, if so have it where we can type anything
we like on the darn thing and I'll type Daytuna

Somebody else the buildings and stands, who cares it there missing the last 10
rows or a few office cubicals.

Then the user can put them together if they choose in the privacy of their own
house and come up with a poor man's unofficial Daytuna? I mean I'm sure the
tracks we have from papy aren't exact duplicates on how the track actually
feels, please don't take offense but IMO to make it just like the track is
impossible. So where already playing on tracks that are ideas in our heads of
what the actual track may be like and that's all I ask anyways. Altered
Reality.

Sorta like a bomb. You can buy all the ingredients and it's up to you what you
want to do with them.

Or more in the line of this business a NBA game with Jordan in it. Most don't
have him in it because of licensing. But they have this unknown guy out there
that is awesome who just so happens to play shooting gaurd for the Bulls who
doesn't follow suit with the other players in terms of matching on the roster.
They also included this thing called an editor where you can change the name
and the number of that shooting gaurd. Guess what everybody in America does? I
refuse to answer (under oath), but you know!! The funny thing is at the end
this guy who was basically nameless at the start even looks like MJ himself.

You see those companies aren't allowed to put MJ in the game but they have all
the bits and pieces in place so the person at home can do whatever they like.
It's called creative planning.

Q.B.M.

Give Jim a break?  Good grief, Charlie Brown!  Did you miss the intent of
his post?  Eric just tried to put Jim's reasons into a language that some
of the readers here could understand.  Since Jim, and others, have tried to
explain it in English, to little or no avail, Eric put it into the latest
craze, " Ebonics ".  He was in no was being discourteous to Jim, but making
fun of the dullards who just don't get it.  While you obviously have a fine
grasp on the laws involved,  your grasp of humor is severely lacking.  His
post was, I believe, his way of calling those who still can't grasp the
idea of copyright laws, well, less than intelligent.  But then again , I
could be mistaken.

Jim has stated that modifying tracks is fine, as long as you only
distribute something like an automated utility that uses the files from
the existing tracks on the users HD to make the changes (this has been
done in the past).  If you start distributing parts of the existing
Papyrus created (hence copyrighted) tracks, that's where the trouble
begins.

--

The IWCCCARS Project: Q & A Representative
http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars/index.html
http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

Thanks.  Perhaps in the future I'll have to revert back to using the
trusty <humor></humor> and <sarcasm></sarcasm> tags just to make sure
my posts are being interpreted correctly. =)

--

The IWCCCARS Project: Q & A Representative
http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars/index.html
http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

And how does it violate "your" copyright laws if "someone else" puts out
a fictious track that may drive just like Datona but looks nothing at
all like it? Again I keep going back to the cars that are being made all
the time and handed out freely.

Just a curious question Jim. I have no real probs with N2 that can't be
fixed with a little text editing here and there. You guys DO make a hell
of a Sim and I'm not complaining about it at all :-)

Kel
Calgary, Alberta  CANADA

[snipped for brevity; it's still on dejanews if anyone really cares]

There are the same laws; the teams choose not to enforce those laws.
(Probably because no one else if offering them multiple millions of
dollars for the license to use their car *exclusively* over three
years... :-) )

If the fictitious track is "derivative work" from a Papyrus track, you
would need our permission (as the copyright holder on the original
work) to distribute it. If it is a completely original work, you don't
need that permission... (Every non-Papyrus track effort I've ever seen
has been based on a Papyrus track [presumably for technical reasons],
but it doesn't mean that every one in the future will be...)

---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

Jim,

Thanks for explaining this. I was quietly sitting back and wondering
what you guys thought about the converters & such. It is now clear
that things can be done in a reasonable way.

Greg

It gets even more complicated when it's a licensed property, such as the
name and likeness of a track. Now both the licenser and licensee may have
contractual obligations to defend the property against infringement. So its
possible that if Papyrus doesn't take action against infringers who use the
Talladega track to create a likeness of Daytona, they could conceivably
lose the rights to use Talladega as well.

Dave Sparks
IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars
Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html
Hawaii Handle: davids

snip snip snip
        Hmmmm. A track editor perhaps? :)
--
Todo Es Justo En Amor Y Carreras.

The Rusty Wallace Miller Lite stock car, awsome when opened up!
GO#2!

        Mullins Motorsports Inc.
        http://www.***tron.com/~ddmj

And now I must add the obligatory 'Sentence of Filler Crap' in order for
my little post to leave my system.  Seems that I must have more NEW text
that what I am replying to.  Maybe this is enough now...

Jim