rec.autos.simulators

Maxx

Thankyou Jim :)

To quantify my original comment it seems i must go into detail or i get the
*** mob R.A.S posse collective on my case ;)

So here goes.

Sorry Gregor but I do know what i am talking about,it's just that despite
your 'high profile' part time job,even you have no idea what you are talking
about.

What is on offer to the general sim driver...?

A real mixture of whats correct and what isnt.A diverse look at 'real'
physics and virtual driving.I can appreciate 100% that all the individuals
involved in all the great projects,netkar,LFS,Racer,RL and even Odysscar
think they are inching closer and closer to what 'feels ' right,what
'reacts' right....

IMO...none of them are even close.

I will use a comment from a dear old friend who sadly died this year ...

" It's great,nice feeling.....but do you think they will ever replicate the
wind in your face...?"

An old man of 71 ,former Air force racer,first time ever seeing GPL,enjoyed
watching me drive,thoroughly enjoyed driving himself,but still wanted more
realism to 'complete' HIS own thoughts of what a sim should provide.Further
discussion brought out g-force requirements,conclusive comment being that it
still feels like a game.

My point being that 1000 or 10,000 people will all give different answers to
what they require in a simulation and that is why none of them will ever be
perfect,nor close to perfect.

They can of course please the majority greatly.....any of them could do this
but never for one second are they accurate to real racing.

You can program in certain sensations or feel....you can make it more
enjoyable for the masses....you can dumb it down...you can do alot.....but
you can't make it real or close to real,it will always be a simulation
limited by what a computer and a wheel and the programmers can do.

Netkar.....i saw no bad graphics,i wasnt looking for graphics,i understood
the effort had gone into the physics model....but he is further away from
'realism' than Papy are.

LFS.....looks great,but i saw a FWD model that has tremendous potential,for
me it will always be personal taste the last 15% so if they change it and it
please 500 people it wil displease 500 others.

GPL....no idea what a 1967 F1 car feels/felt like ,but this is so good it
just 'seems' right...maybe a long long way away if Jackie Stewart testes it
for us....but for me,it feels good.

Nascar 2002.....again,what does a real 750hp car feel like on those
ovals..?...just feels good....no back end snapping out for no reason like
there is a RND instruction in the programming....thats all...other feel
totally like there is.

This was all my opinion and as ever,others will disagree with me here,but
then we will agree on something else,thats the point.

Aidee

do I agree with you that netKar doesn't feel as solid as Papy's efforts? I
certainly do, and I'm sure Stefano would immediately agree with you as
well. One can, however, see, that the general modelling (rigid body
dynamics, tyre model, suspension etc.) is done correctly,
and a bit of sandpaper here and a little polish there will transform it
into something much more refined, as the trick indeed is in the details.

Therefore calling it 'crap' can mean either that you are not entirely
capable of judging the above mentioned simulation aspects, or that you
lack any respect for other people's good work, not to mention basic
decency. You decide.

-Gregor

Graphics are good enough for me. FFB too (it even models flat spots !).
Physics ? Well, the cars can be so vicious these remind me of my first
contact with GPL.  But perseverance is worth it (as in GPL).

Cheers,
Xavier.

Try this english site:

http://www.nkfunpage.net/index.asp?2&
or
http://www.nkfunpage.net/download/netKar/nkSetup093.exe

I was also lost in circles on the main italian download site, but
found it in the end! :)

Cheers,

/Martin

You da man!

(mental note to self, don't***off Gregor :-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"

"The Pits"    http://www.racesimcentral.net/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--

Actually, most of these are pretty right, as far as what can be
simulated. As soon as test results in the sim begin to approach the
real-life counterpart, given the same measured parameters, then you
could argue that a sim is pretty good.

However, as a sim is still a sim, it will never be as good as actually
stepping into the real car and doing the same stuff for real. G-forces
mainly. The problem is that simulating these is costly and pretty
high-end (not many of those G-force chairs around and they're not that
cheap either).

Ok, an external fan controller, would be easy to do. ;-)
But surely, an actual simulation would have to plug into your brains
directly, to the point where you get to scared to even play the game.
Given the technology that's available, sims are doing a remarkable job
at the moment, I'd say.

Still, an attempt for physical accuracy of the components involved can
be done relatively objectively. Netkar seems quite good at this. Most
games probably do have a nice physics basis, but often go around their
own engine to make gameplay easier. Netkar seems to target physical
accuracy, so if you're into that, it's quite a nice thing to play
with. Not crap, even if you're only into finished polished products.

Actually, it's started to really be limited by hardware more & more.
As for accuracy, you can probably run Adams models by now in realtime,
making for more accuracy in the calculations than most humans would be
able to distinguish.
Mostly limited by what users want, and that is mostly recognizable
(Nascar) and player-friendly (automatic stabilisers) stuff.

Actually, a lot of realism is mainly in the parameters. With even
simpler models, you can get very close to Papy's.

If anything, it feels like big G-forces pulling you to every side.
Unfortunately, any G-machine can only give you about 1G max, or >1G
for just a moment (it needs space to do that).
Absolutely fun to play with though.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

   GJ

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I found it quite a lot of fun.  The physics has a good feel
to it, good lines = good times and there are features in this
free simulation which only appeared in commercial sims
a few years ago.

It looks like it is designed modularly, it runs well and
has immersive physics.  It handles different types of cars
pretty well and appears to have third party support in
the form of tracks, paintjobs etc.

So what part was crap?

iksteh

Doug

What I wanted with this thread was to point some attention to it, and
this growing thread will certainly have made a few people download it
and try it.

Thanks! :)

/Martin