rec.autos.simulators

I just saw in the News section of NHRA ONLINE that it will definitely be
debuting this week at the Route 66 Nationals in Chicago.  They are now
projecting it to hit the stores by mid June.  Let's hope they're right this
time and that this wasn't just another tease.  

For further info, check out the NHRA Online site at: www.goracing.com/nhra/

Last I heard of the NHRA game was by a particular marketing person who
attended a computer software confrence, sorry forgot name of confrence, I
think it was the one in Long Beach, CA.... but this person, Lets call him
"MrV", got a real good peak at Tantrums product. Of course, Tantrum was
showing it at this confrence. Well, to make a long story short,....

1) The person showing the product, whom happened to be one of the game's
developers/programers, could not even get the car to run in a straight line,
and never completed one entire 1320ft pass.

2) The game locked up every 32 seconds, yes exactly ever 32 seconds.

3) There are only eight, yes that was an 8, adjustable settings for you to
create your perfect car

4) Those 8 adjustable settings.....slider bars, LOL

5) Looked pretty though.....

I dont think i could build a Pro TF dragster or Funny Car off 8 adjustable
settings. I would need dozens, it not hundreds of different things to tweak
and combinations of tweaks. Dont you agree? If you just said yes, look at
the "other" drag racing game on the market, it may suprise you.

Now, of course, this is second hand, but I would have to believe that this
MrV wouldnt lie about a product that is so highly anticipated. Though it
does sound like a good PlayStation game though eh?
Now, even with only 8 adjustable, slider-bar, settings, is this going to be
a simulator if is has a***pit view? Or will we refer to it as a "game"? My
vote is, "game".

Dont get me wrong, I am also waiting for the "game" to come out as well,
though doubt-full it will be here within the next month or so. But, If this
product did not have the "NHRA" name on the box, it would be nothing more
than a Playstation arcade game. The only selling point I have seen so far is
the "NHRA" name on the box.

Sure it will surprise you. Your first 5.x second 1950 chevy is a shock
all right. THat other game allows you to buuild unrealistic cars. Plus
I really hate bracket racing. From a hood-cam no less.

My

Cockpit view alone won't do it. And how can you vote on it if you haven't
seen or played the final product. I heard from a NHRA tester that the game
had as many mods as Burnout. If this person (***) is wrong,
they will never hear the end of it.

I have never seen so many brown nosers as you burnout people in
my life... Wow.

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Couldn't get it to run in a straight line? Hmmm. I've never driven a T/F
car, but I did drive an A/FD (Pro Comp) in the early 70's that clocked high
6's at about 200mph. With a 240" wheelbase, I will freely admit that getting
it to go in a straight line was never a problem. In fact, it's quite hard to
steer one of these off-line! Now, my first dragster which was a slingshot
with a 170" wheelbase was another matter -- I took a few wild rides in that
one,  mainly on low-budget, bumpy tracks or one other time when I hit some
oil on one side.

--
Doug Gordon
(Remove "nospam." from e-mail address)

        Greg, I feel cheated! I didn't get a 1950 chevy! Just because the
tools are in the sim to allow you to go past realistic settings doesn't
mean
you have to use them. And you don't have to race with a hood cam! There
are several camera angles available! But when you criticise something
you don't have or don't want to own, by your own admission, then its hard
to be objective never mind overly opinionated.
        I am very pleased though that your list of adjectives is growing in
discribing me. I hate being so one dimensional! :-)

        Pete

... I owned it and returned it. Anyway I was wrong about there being
a 1950 chevy. Big deal. There is a 66 mustang? Yes? Well you
can crank that baby up there too.

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Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

I already ordered the game from Mind Magic's web site. They sent me an e-mail
about a month ago stating the game would be released May 29th.

Answers? We got answers.

It was at the CGDC, Computer Game Devleopers Conference. Tantrum was not
showing the game per se, but rather was using it to show how SoftImage
tools we used to create the game. It was during a session sponsored by
SoftImage.

line, and never completed one entire 1320ft pass.

The designer showing the game crashed the car on purpose to show the
effect of collisions with guardrails to show pieces of the car come off.
"I crashed the car on every run when demoing as this is what people like
to check out when I have only about 30 seconds to demo the game," he told
me.

I am on the beta team and currently am playing the same version that was
demo'd. although there re occiasional crashes as with an dbeta, it does
not lock up every "32 seconds."

The game was only on the Softimage content demos that were being shown and
so he I quit the game using a keyboard shortcut at the end of each run so
save time.

to create your perfect car

Dale Armstrong and many other big-time crew chiefs were consulted for the
adjustments they generally make during an event, on a run-to-run basis.
"The consensus from all of the best minds in the sport was that to clutter
the game with a bunch of settings that do not have a real impact from
round to round just so we could talk about how many sliders we have would
be a mistake and of no real impact to game play."

For the record, the adjustments are: primary clutch weight, secondary
cluch timer, advance spark, nitro content, blower overdrive, nose weight,
rear wing angle (for TF), and compression ratio.

As a reporter for National DRAGSTER for 15 years, I would have to say that
these are the main items that are adjusted on a regular basis. Let's face
it, a Top Fueler is not like a doorcar: no suspension, one regulated
engine size, no transmission, one standard tire size, etc. The only other
real adjustments that are made are jets to compensate for dropped cylinder
or burned pistons (not for performance reasons) and, on rare, rare
occasions, tire pressure. everything else usually stays the same or is
regulated against being changed (i.e., rear-end gears)

Yes, they are sliders but they show actual measurements; i.e., primary
clutch has a realistic range of grams, nitro is in percentage, etc. How
else would you do it?

 >I dont think i could build a Pro TF dragster or Funny Car off 8
adjustable settings. I would need dozens, it not hundreds of different
things to tweak and combinations of tweaks. Dont you agree?>>>

Because all Top Fuelers and Funny cars are basically alike, I would say
"no," The TFs are all 300-inch wheelbase units, mostly built by McKinney.
The FCs are all 125 inches, again built by just a few manufacturers. The
engines are all late-model Hemis, 500 cu in., all have 14-71 blowers,
direct drive, nearly identical clutches, rear ends, tires, mangetos,
headers, etc.

Sure, Tantrum could have made available a Ford engine or a Rodeck (Chevy),
but this is a sim based on the actual cars in competition this year. It is
based on realism, which, I'm sure all would agree, is not present in
Burnout due to the radical combinations that can be assembled.

Remember, we're not building a car from the ground up here, and almost all
TFs and FCs are cookie cutters, with the difference in performance being
crew chief smarts and testing (which the game allows both; there is a
testing mode and a match race mode in addition to full season or
individual event play). What more would you have liked to be able to pick?
The size of the bolts that hold on the wing? <g>

to be a simulator if is has a***pit view? Or will we refer to it as a
"game"? My vote is, "game".>>>

What's the difference between a sim and a game? A sim is a simulation,
meant to simulate real life. That is what NHRA Drag Racing is doing, I
believe. A game is an amu***t piece, where anything can happen due to
the improbable nature of the options. I'll be the first to admit that
Burnout might be deeper in buttons to push, but that's because, by their
inherent nature, doorcars and other sportsman cars have more tuning
variables. I know most would think that it was the other way around but,
for reasons I've already covered, it ain't so. More expensive? Yes? More
disastrous if you make a mistake? Yes. More technically demanding? Yes.
Harder to drive? Yes. But the sad reality, and the part of the sim that is
valid, is that there are less tuning options for a fuel car than a bracket
car.

Phil Burgess
National DRAGSTEr/NHRA Online

 Typical response.... Do you actually have any idea of race car physics,
Brainiac?  I didn't think so...

"There are those who race.....and those who watch.....      I don't watch!"
Xman
FMDRS #25  Super Street

Unfortunatly, this is a typical response from a typical person. Not many
people will understand what these settings are or what they do in a TF car
or rail. And the simple fact of only having 8 adjustments is a very limiting
factor in the game.

Can Tantrum make a game which reproduces this effectively?
I have no idea. But if they did, it would be one heck of a game.
I just hope it models burnouts properly :-) When I have burnout,
it wouldn't do the burnouts properly.

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I too hope that Tantrum can make this game correctly. I would have a great
time playing a good sim. I am not AGAINST this particular game or company. I
did express some news that I recieved about it and even admited that it was
2nd hand news, but thought many of you may like to know about it.
If Tantrum works some wonders with NHRA, I will be one of the first to
purchase it, hopefully they will be able to add more than 8 settings. And,
Yes, I too hope they model burnouts better.

(Road >Course).

Im sure you do have vast knowledge of race cars and thier physics, but how
many people in the world have that same knowledge? My remarks was that "not
many people..." Which I still stand by, not many are going to know what tose
settings are going to do or how they will effect a TF rail.  Will this be
the deciding factor of the game making it big time or not? eh, probably not,
I think it really comes down to gameplay and realism.

So again, I say, that from what I have heard about this game, it seem
snothing more than a hyped up Playstation product. If I am wrong, I would
love to hear from the Playtesters or Tantrum prgramers. I hope Im wrong. I
also hope that Tantrum holds off and gets the bugs before release, that was
a big problem with the other drag game on the market. I would hate to go
thru that again.

c ya

race),

Really... I'm a fair sim pilot and I'll be willing to go a lap or two with
you
in F1RS :-)

hehe...

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Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

<snip>

Well then, from your list of accomplishments, I saw "a little drag experience,
but not much", and before condemning it, try it. My knowledge of race car
physics pertains solely to drag racing, and to be brutally honest, I wouldn't
know the first thing about setting up an oval track car.. This is not to say I
find it boring, but it's not my bag.
However.... it occurs to me the "average" sim pilot is a frustrated racer
"wannabe", (not all of us are fortunate enough to be able to actually race),
and from the sound of your "boring" comments, that's the impression you gave
me. That, and having dealt with several narrow-minded "fans" of oval track
racing over the course of the evening, well.... it's easy to take it out here
:)
(btw.... I respect road racers a hell of a lot than you might think)

"There are those who race.....and those who watch.....      I don't watch!"
Xman
FMDRS #25  Super Street

Only if you're willing to strap yourself into a S/ST car, and make a pass or
two with me on the dragstrip.. :-)   I'll be waiting at the next Federal Mogul
Drag Racing Series race in the SE division.

"There are those who race.....and those who watch.....      I don't watch!"
Xman
FMDRS #25  Super Street