rec.autos.simulators

I persoanlly like the good old original logitech wingman red as a
wheel only.  It used cables, and had very subtle force feedback, and
was sliky smooth no notchiness.  The pedals on the other hand were
crap, and didn' t have enough throw.  I think the act labs pedals are
decent, especially when the upgraded the pedals and springs to reduce
breakage.    Of course ecci, tsw pedals are sweet, but expensive.  I
belive and I'm sure others will disagress that loosof traction,
surface texture can be felt in a ff wheel.  These are everyday things
you can feel when driving your own car on the road.  For those who use
sound, you are probably getting a later response to loos of traction
than if oyu had ff, and using visual clues is probably a delayed
response than to transmission of the sense through the wheel.  My
opinion.

My setup, not great but gets the job done

Logitech wingman orignal red wheel
ACT Labs performance pedals with clutch
ACT Labs USB shifter

but when you consider fluid damping (via ECCI) you something between the
heavy tire feel and rack & pinion steering.  All force feedback I have tried
feels arcadeish.

Anyone making commentary on ECCI products should find one to try first. If
in Texas, give me a shout.

Those 'tractor pedals' are excellent. Their advantage over regular style
pedals is that you can control the pedal position more precisely and faster
than 'regular style' pedals allow you to.

I've been using CH Pro Pedals ever since I purchased pedals for the first
time (7 or 8 years ago?), but your mention of the tractor pedals made me
look at the ECCI pages and I'm now in the process of ordering them, if we
can find a way to connect them to my wheel :-) but I'm confident, the guys
as ECCI seem to be very knowledgeable and helpful.

Achim

...

Does fluid damping resistance change with speed?

No.

Therefore it is unrealistic, imo.

I've tried one, didn't like it. The pedals were unlike anything you
would encounter in a real race car. They cannot be used for heel & toe
so therefore they fall into the arcade/toy category, imo.

Gerry

FF is "realistic"?

He-he-he.

Right. Maybe in replicating the feel of a 1920's era Ford delivery truck
with 500,000 miles on it, a chunk of the flywheel missing, and a few broken
wheel spokes to boot.

If the steering wheel in my car shook, jerked, rattled, rolled, and ground
like every FF wheel I have owned has (and I have laying around here one (at
least!) of just about every FF wheel made), I would immediately pull over to
the side of the road and call for a tow for fear of having broken some major
component of my steering or suspension.

Oh well, this is just imho, I guess its just a matter of whatever gets your
motor running.  Or maybe there is something wrong with all the cars I have
driven because they have had such smooth, consistent steering.

KH

So how do you think a racing car wheel feels when it's being driven at
over 150mph? Smooth as silk?

So the wheel in your car feels like it's spring centred then?

Well, I've done 130mph in a Honda Civic and I can tell you one thing: that
car is not made for that kind of speeds. Downhill on the German highway it
did reach it though :-) But still, steering felt a lot more like a fluid
damped ECCI system than like a piece of plastic being shaked by a bunch of
electronics.
'Spring centered' doesn't even come close to describing the feeling of a
fluid damped ECCI system. Yes, springs are involved (192 lbs of them!). But
that's where the similarity to a usual spring centered wheel ends.

It's easy to say 'spring centered' isn't realistic. However, when talking in
terms of how the wheel is functioning on a technical level, nothing can be
described as realistic. Neither 'spring centered', nor 'a bunch of
electronics'. In the end what it all comes down to, is the feeling of the
total package. And to know the feeling, you must have tried it first. There
is NO other way. I'm sure you have not tried fluid damped steering. Because
if you had, you'd have owned it yourself already. :-)

Have a nice day!
---
Joeri J. Cox

European Racing League - Taming The Tracks Since April 2000
http://erl.racesimcentral.com

ERL is proudly sponsored by BallRacing Developments, Ltd.
http://www.interactiveracing.com

Does a real car's steering shaft go into a plastic box full of gravel?
No.
Therefore every force feedback wheel I've tried is unrealistic.
This would be news to both my heels and my toes.  Sure hope they don't read
this.

Don McCorkle

Fluid damping does change with corning because it working with the
spring/cam dymanics.  I run the heavyest spings (all 3) and high preloads,
and hardest fluid damping ratio pulley ECCI provides.  After 100 laps at
Bristol, my arms are totally pumped and I am sweating even with a fan
blowing on me. Do you get that from FF?

That and more, as FF provides information about what the car and especially
the front wheels are currently doing, just like a real car's steering wheel.

It is essential, though, that it is a good FF wheel, that the game uses FF
effects in a sensible way, and that the user sets the FF parameters properly
for his wheel.

Very often, when one of these conditions is not met, what you feel at the
wheel is just useless flutter. But if the above conditions are met, FF is
very useful and adds to the realism of the simulation.

It is btw also essential that you get used to the wheel some in order to
learn to properly interpret the feedback you receive. That's just like in a
real car - when you get a new car, you need a few hours of practice before
you can take it to the limit, partly because you don't know how it behaves
at the limit, but partly also because you don't understand the car's
feedback optimally in the beginning.

Achim

...

Pffft, like you know the first thing about how a car behaves on the
track, slowass

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

You're just pissed cause you spent a thousand dollars on a wheel and it
doesn't even have force feedback ;) I'm Just kidding :)

You may be doing something wrong with the FF wheels, mine doesn't "shake,
jerk, rattle, roll, and ground" I get feedback as to the amount of grip I
have by the weight (or lack of) in the steering, with a vibration when
driving over kerbs in F1 (they're serrated so you'd expect some shake)
You're also comparing it with what you feel in a standard roadcar instead of
what you'd feel in a racing car. The roadcar is set-up for comfort, it has
soft suspension and power steering to make a supple easy drive. A racecar on
the other hand has hard suspension and most don't have FF so you'll feel
every little bump through the steering wheel.

Maybe the effects we feel in a FF wheel are slightly pronounced compared to
what you'd get in a real racecar, unfortunately, we (as sim drivers) don't
have any other form of the physical feedback that you'd get driving a
racecar, so I can live with that.
At the other extreme, all non FF wheels give us absolutely no feedback so
we're missing out on information that is available to increase the immersion
and possibly for some people an increase in speed or consistency (Personally
I find I'm more consistent with FF on and the speed is about the same).
Of course, everyone is different so what works for me could very well be
***to you, and vice versa.

--

Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>

...which is why I'm just as entitled to give lectures
as everyone else in here <g>

Achim

...

LOLOL

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

How much for just the pedals Achim?