rec.autos.simulators

Both wheels report 10 bits on the wheel axis through an optical sensor. In
200 degree mode, the DFP has an angular resolution of 200/1024 = 5
counts/degree vs. MR 240/1024 = 4.2 counts per degree. In 900 degree, the
DFP drops down to a bit more than 1 count per degree, so it looses. (but
wait, there's more! - see below). FF effects are similar, but different, and
a matter of preference/getting used to.

In 900 degree, the DFP is quite loud (gear noise) vs. the MR. In 200 degree,
the DFP is still a bit louder, more "agressive" loud than MR, but you get
used to it. (unless your SO or kid wakes up :)

Well the problem comes up with 900 degrees that you have to turn *a lot* and
because of the nature of the beast, the same amount of resistance will all
of a sudden feel like more because you're turning further. As for "doesn't
feel quite right", that's often the first impression you get if you're used
to wheel A/brand X and go to wheel B/brand Y. Folks said the same between
the WMFF and the red MOMO, too.

Little birdy is telling me that the maybe is rather certainly a "for sure".
Along that, the wheel will run in fully enabled mode, which gives you two
buttons more and 14 bit reporting (a range of 16,384 counts for the wheel -
which would give you 18 counts per degree on 900 degree mode and 82
counts/deg on 200 degree mode! This is absolutely unheard AFAIK and makes it
the most precise wheel ever, at least in consumer space); additionally,
birdy is singing about adjustable range (no more DXTweak messing, birdy
chirped rather happily).

Again, FF is personal preference. Precision is not a problem, both are
optical. DFP (once enabled) will be more precise than anything else.

If you say so...

See above, FWIW.

The weak spot on both wheels are, well, not the wheels but the pedals.
There's a "pedal fix" for MR out there, expect the same for DFP as part of
the official support in the Logitech software. If you're among the unlucky,
expect to have to deal with support to swap pedals.

It seems to be the rumble strip and grass texture effects etc that are
muted, imo the actual front tyre loading feels just as good as it does on
other wheels.

pez

The DFP supports 900 degree mode. This is supposedly a lot of fun, and
combined with DXTweak it provides a lot of flexibility. That's easily
worth an extra $50 to me, but only if the wheel is equal to MOMO in
precision and FF effects. Therein lies the rub...

On Racing Sim Central, there were a bunch of users saying the DFP
provides very subdued FF compared to the MOMO, that the FF is "notchy"
or just doesn't feel quite right, and that it creates too much
resistance to countersteer. On the Logitech forums, the programmers
acknowledged that the PC driver's FF code is not "tuned" for the DFP
(since it's not officially supported on the PC). They said support may
be added in the next driver release, but that's a maybe -- I'd rather
not risk being stuck with wonky FF.

Then again, I've seen *some* users say the DFP's FF is *better* than
the MOMOs. I've also heard some say the wheel is more precise, possibly
because it has an optical sensor. And then there's that *** 900 degree
mode...

So, I'm torn. Lots of conflicting reports, not sure who to believe.
Anyone own/tried both these wheels and want to give their take on it?
Cheers,
Eric

FF on the DFP is fine in terms of strength.  In fact, I'd say it's much
stronger.  The MR does seem smoother overall, but the DFP still is close
behind in my opinion.  The key is to not have FF at incredibly high gain.
With the strength dialed back closer to MR output, the feel is very smooth.
Overall, the notchiness, IME, is mostly from excessive centering force, and
it's more "gritty" than notchy.

The full 900 degrees is mostly useless unless you regularly drive sims
simulating road cars (GT4 for PC would be nice :) ).  However, the
flexibility to have any usuable range you need is fantastic.... even without
physical stops.

Just my 2 cents,
Alan

I have spend *days* Googling "Driving Force Pro" and "Driving Force Pro
MOMO"
and reading through all the hits; your post trumps them all. Thanks. :)

You should be running mid to high 20s to 1 steering at daytona, as they do
in real life, and have a mutliturn wheel and switch off the low speed
steering hack and run 100% linearity if you want the most accurate
representation of real life nascar (or so ive been led to believe).

So its not just for road car sims, its for boat sims too ;)

pez

Any other setup tips?

Cheers,
Eric

Personally, I run overall gain at 100%, spring strength at 65-75%, and
damper strength at 100%.  The centering spring is unchecked.  That's all for
the Control Panel settings.  In game, it's very user dependent.  I like to
run NR2003 down around 65%.  It just feels more natural to me.  In F1C, full
effects and strength at about -85% works for me as a general rule of thumb.

The DFP is just noisy in general.  It comes from the gears when moving the
wheel back and forth.  It's really only an issue in games where you're
constantly applying a fair bit of opposite lock (e.g. RBR).  Even so, I
honestly don't "hear" it at all while I'm driving.  IOW, yes it's loud...
but not loud enough to break my concentration.

Just remember to put the wheel at 100% strength too (Select+R3+Left
Paddle... Left LED should blink twice).  If you're not used to FF, expect an
acclimation period.  The effects can sometimes be subtle (a good thing
IMHO), but after awhile, you'll notice things like a difference in feel as
the front tires wear out. :)

Alan

Again, agreed. Try Alan's settings, if you think it's too weak, up it a bit.

Again, agreed.

No, the problem is other people. If you're trying to play at midnight with a
SO or kid sleeping, or in an apartment with really thin walls, then you're
into trouble with the noise. If you don't have a situation like that, the
whirring isn't distracting at all. Just turn up the volume a bit, or put on
those headphones. You won't hear a thing.

I'm curious to see those 4.6 drivers with the adjustable range. That's going
to be nice, I think..

Yeah, resist the urge to "turn it up" too much. More/bigger is not always
better, just more impressive. The fine nuances and subtle clues are much
more helpful.

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/dforcepro/2.html

They managed to damage the wheel on their first run, introducing a
permanent wobble. I have no idea what they specifically mean by
"wobble" and what internal mechanism is responsible, but it's
enough to make me paranoid of breaking the wheel. I wonder if
turning down the FF will make the wheel last longer...

Cool. That's what I'm after. I've been playing LFS with the mouse
(I downloaded a bunch of demos in preparation for the wheel, LFS is
one of the few that supports mouse input) and I'm getting pretty
good at it. It will be interesting to see how my first run with the
wheel compares to the times I'm getting with the mouse.  I can
hardly wait for Santa to get here. :)

Happy Holidays,
Eric

pez

I've had mine for awhle and haven't had problems until recently.  The right
"paddle" button has taken to occasionally requiring two presses on some
upshifts or actually triggering multiple upshifts with a single press.  It's
not a show stopper though as it isn't consistent enough for me to worry.
For now, I consider it an electronics problem with the vehicle. :)
Otherwise, it's been trouble free, and it sees a lot of use.... an average
of maybe two hours per day, 7 days a week.  I got it not long after folks
started noticing it was usable on the PC.  No "wobbles" though.  In fact,
there's less play in the shaft than the MOMO Racing.

Alan

I've been following this thread and have decided to buy a Driving
Force Pro. Unfortunately the only ones I've been able to find online
are for systems other than Windows PC. Am I missing something here?  

Also, I'd like recommendations for a good PC Formula 1 simulation --
preferably one that won't take weeks to learn.

Thanks,
Maddy

On 14 Dec 2004 22:05:02 -0800, "Eric Tetz"

I got one and it's awesome. The built quality is excellent, it
looks great, it attaches easily and firmly to your desk, and the
pedals don't slide.  It's terrifically precise, with no deadzone
whatsoever, and no need for calibration. The force feedback is
exceptional. I still can't believe how much information you can get
through your hands. A wheel like this, in a modern racing sim like
GTR or rFactor, with a good computer and audio system, is about as
immersive as *** gets.

That said, I'm thinking of trading it in for the MOMO Racing. I
think the MOMO Racing -- with it's wider grip, 240 degrees from
lock to lock, and real shifter paddles -- is more ideally suited
for the kinds the games I want to play (F1C, GTR, rFactor). As long
as it matches the DFP in all other respects (mounting mechanism,
precision, force feedback, etc.) it looks like the ideal wheel for
me. I'm going to buy it some times this week and A/B it against the
DFP.

All the best,

uwe

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