rec.autos.simulators

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

Jan Verschuere

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by Jan Verschuere » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:34:42

Ping is not directly the cause, no, the trouble is the way GPL/NR200x
servers compensate for it, but not for the position errors this system
causes when collisions are calculated.

It works pretty well if the combined ping of the players is under 40ms. E.g.
back in the days when I was one of the first group of people on broadband
where I live and my ping to Norway was 23ms, I could race my buddy Asgeir on
the server at the university (his ping < 10ms) without taking online issues
into account. Once we went one and a half laps around Monaco side by side,
banging wheels Villeneuve vs Arnoux style (and those sissies had a lot of
run off ;-)) as we went along without GPL getting really out of shape.

Anything much higher (say 70ms and above) and things deteriorate rapidly.

Also, in NR200x you are able to turn on more cars to view than the bandwidth
between you and the server allows. In GPL terms, NR200x bandwidth allows you
to view 6 cars and, while stationary, you will only see this amount. Once
you start moving and prediction kicks in you can see up to 42 cars if your
config allows, but this has to be at the cost of update rate. Which is to
say, position info on any opponent car will arrive only once every 3
communications with the server (for 18 opponents in view) and, even if your
combined ping is very low for internet standards nowadays, say 60ms, the
effective update rate between two players may be as bad as 6 times that, or
360ms.

It's because of the way GPL/NR200x compensates for latency and then
calculates collisions client side, for both clients.

A GPL/NR200x server collects data about the player's position and compares
the amount of time which has passed in the client's race with the amount of
time it knows the race has been underway. It uses this data to sent out info
to the clients on their opponents in such a way that the information will be
current when it arrives at the client PC, assuming latency is the same both
ways AND constant. Because all data has to pass sequentially from the
server, this means that, relative to the server and eachother all players
are at a different point in the timeline with regard to the start of the
race, i.e. each player's game reality is slightly different to all the
others.

Say a collisions starts at one players end... his game calculates his car's
reaction to the collision and send it to the server. This info is then
passed on to the other game where either seperate collision is in progress
or an accident hasn't occured yet. It sends back the local cars reaction to
this time delayed, coming from another version of reality information and
the whole mess keeps feeding back and forth until it spirals out of control
because the two games were too far out of sync due to their relative
latencies (compounded by the update rate in NR200x games) when the accident
started. It's similar to the ball bearing bouncing on the marble plate in
the explanation why the simulation update frequency plays such a big part in
how accurate its results are.

Anyhow, ISI and the people behind LFS use a different system (as yet
unexplained to me), so nudges between cars remain just that, nudges. It's
pretty obvious the trade off is more data being passed between the
participants, but otherwise I'm not aware of the merits/flaws/workings of
this system.

Jan.
=---

JP

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by JP » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:18:51






> > > "Phillip Malphrus, Jr" wrote...
> > > > yeah :)

> > > Nothing wrong with Papy collision code per se, as it was designed for
> and
> > > works fairly well in a low ping environment (i.e. LAN multiplayer).

> > > Online was tagged on to GPL at a late stage and, apparently, only
> slightly
> > > improved for the NR200x iterations. As pings rise (and you turn on
more
> > cars
> > > in NR200x) the design flaw of having each player calculate collisions
> > > locally (i.e. clientside) rears its ugly head, as the time needed to
> > > exchance info between the players leads to ever more erroneous values
> > being
> > > put into the simulation. This creates the infamous and always
unexpected
> > > online "explosion", even though a contact may, at first, appear minor.

> > > Jan.
> > > =---

> >   Blaming it on ping is incorrect.  I've seen it exist in any net
numbers
> > you can think of, high or low.  As I've asked before; how come Heat's
code
> > didn't do this then, if it's net/ping related ?

> Heat definitely did do it at times; I raced Heat a lot back in the day and
> seeing cars somersaulting through the air from warp-driven collisions was
> far from unheard of.  That said, when you had a good connections you could
> lean on each other and rub doors till your mirrors fell off.  Great fun
> emulating the BTCC door bashers with the DTM mod.  One thing Heat did (and
> so does rFactor) is turn off collisions when latency passes a certain
> point - Heat evened turned them into ghost cars.  I've gone right through
> guys in rFactor who had lousy connections without ever leaving a mark.
Papy
> apparently didn't like the idea of heavy prediction code so much and
> preferred to stick closer to the raw data they were getting, resulting in
> the infamous jittering opponents.  You don't want to get anywhere near
them
> for fear of The Bomb...  ;-)

> But all this speculation about the new EA product is pretty pointless.
> Doesn't look so hot from that video, but no matter; we'll all know if it
> sucks or not in a week or so.

> SB

  <shrug>  I raced Heat online like crazy too.  Never once saw a Papy-like
rocket launch, fwiw.
JP

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by JP » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:31:03


  Exactly.  Anyway, my point is that folks have a tendency to blame it on
everything but what it is, which is Papy's code.

Buck41

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by Buck41 » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:21:30

You would think Ryan Newman would be leading the pack in this picture, since
he is racing a Cup car against Craftsman Trucks...

http://img47.exs.cx/img47/9886/image21at.jpg


JP

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by JP » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:35:48

  Seeing as it's a pace lap, kind of hard to lead if you're not on the pole
<g>  Funny pic though.


> You would think Ryan Newman would be leading the pack in this picture,
since
> he is racing a Cup car against Craftsman Trucks...

> http://img47.exs.cx/img47/9886/image21at.jpg



> > Just received this in email

> > http://www.easports.com/games/nascarsimracing/videos/exclusive.jsp

Jan Verschuere

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by Jan Verschuere » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:35:05

Well, the RASCAR problems are a 3-way thing... Saturday night seems to be an
extra-ordinarily busy time at my providers, so my connect is worse then than
at other times. Secondly the route to the RASCAR server is particularly bad
compared to other servers in the US I have used (Blademan, Eldred's, etc...)
and, thirdly, for some reason this server seems to react particularly poorly
to my connection problems. Sometimes, it will start adjusting the wrong way
for my connection difficulties and, when that starts to happen, it never
recovers and I have to disconnect to avoid taking the field with me. It's
one thing to have latency spikes in upload (thus dissappearing for the other
players from time to time) but being able to keep tabs on the other guys
(thanks to one of the improvements in NR200x multiplayer over GPL, i.e. the
server keeps sending you data even though there's a momentary interuption in
the data flow from your end) and re-appearing more or less where they expect
you to be. It's another for the server to force my game to slow down or
accellerate because it doesn't believe I'm where my game says I am and then
immediatly correcting the other players' positions once it realises it's
been forcing me to adjust the wrong way. That is extremely difficult to
adjust to as a player and extremely dangerous in an online scenario as it
make me appear unpredictable to the other players.

Now, I know you can't do anything about that and this is just the way things
are with me running NR2003 on the RASCAR server. If we were using an ISI
derived game for our races on this server, online play would be impossible
for me even on the best of nights.

However, things are quite different on a Sunday morning at 9am and a server
that's only 3.5km away from me. There's absolutely no online issues then.

Actually, the guy who runs that says that I'm imagining things as well. Even
after I pointed it out to him standing behind him as he played. He says:
"yeah, it does that sometimes, but it's rare and it doesn't bother me."
I say: "it does that on every corner and every bit in between of every lap
and it really bothers me".

Like I said, it's highly subjective.

Jan.
=---

Jan Verschuere

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by Jan Verschuere » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:09:07

Sure, but it's also unfair to blame it on code not originally intended to
operate in the environment it was transferred into.

Also, I think the Papy system has a lot of merit to it, in a community
sense.

Do you want online racing to be limited to those who can (collectively) pay
for a powerfull server with a guaranteed 10Mbit throughput and top of the
range private broadband connections to it or do you want everyone who owns a
PC and an analog modem to, through getting an account from some free
provider and carefully managing their connection settings, be able to race
on a P3 455Mhz with 128Mb RAM a bunch of enthousiasts threw together out of
spare computer parts and which is connected to someone's 512kb/512kb ADSL
connection at work to use at night while the bosses don't care 'cuz it's
payed for anyway?

The trade off is drivers have to watch their step in close quarter combat,
but that's a small price to pay for the independance and accessibility this
model provides, IMO.

Jan.
=---

David G Fishe

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by David G Fishe » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:16:47


Updated rFactor demo is out now. Maybe things will improve for you.

http://www.hcd.com.au/hg/rfactormppatch.rar

--
David G Fisher

JP

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by JP » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:28:13


   That's a fair point, and no doubt about it, *up to this point* (fingers
crossed), EA's code is a resource hog, in all their different games.

Don Burnett

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by Don Burnett » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:24:11


> "Phillip Malphrus, Jr" wrote...
>> yeah :)

> Nothing wrong with Papy collision code per se, as it was designed for
> and works fairly well in a low ping environment (i.e. LAN
> multiplayer).
> Online was tagged on to GPL at a late stage and, apparently, only
> slightly improved for the NR200x iterations. As pings rise (and you
> turn on more cars in NR200x) the design flaw of having each player
> calculate collisions locally (i.e. clientside) rears its ugly head,
> as the time needed to exchance info between the players leads to ever
> more erroneous values being put into the simulation. This creates the
> infamous and always unexpected online "explosion", even though a
> contact may, at first, appear minor.
> Jan.
> =---

The online collision code was one of my main gripes - it especially got
worse after the new physics model was implemented, and deteriorated from
that point on. There was one fella, the guru of this, can't remember his
name off hand - once he left, it went downhill.

--
Don Burnette

"When you decide something is impossible to do, try to stay out of the
way of the man that's doing it."

Don Burnett

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by Don Burnett » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:25:15






>>> "Phillip Malphrus, Jr" wrote...
>>>> yeah :)

>>> Nothing wrong with Papy collision code per se, as it was designed
>>> for and works fairly well in a low ping environment (i.e. LAN
>>> multiplayer).

>>> Online was tagged on to GPL at a late stage and, apparently, only
>>> slightly improved for the NR200x iterations. As pings rise (and you
>>> turn on more cars in NR200x) the design flaw of having each player
>>> calculate collisions locally (i.e. clientside) rears its ugly head,
>>> as the time needed to exchance info between the players leads to
>>> ever more erroneous values being put into the simulation. This
>>> creates the infamous and always unexpected online "explosion", even
>>> though a contact may, at first, appear minor.

>>> Jan.
>>> =---

>>   Blaming it on ping is incorrect.  I've seen it exist in any net
>> numbers you can think of, high or low.  As I've asked before; how
>> come Heat's code didn't do this then, if it's net/ping related ?

> Heat definitely did do it at times; I raced Heat a lot back in the
> day and seeing cars somersaulting through the air from warp-driven
> collisions was far from unheard of.  That said, when you had a good
> connections you could lean on each other and rub doors till your
> mirrors fell off.  Great fun emulating the BTCC door bashers with the
> DTM mod.  One thing Heat did (and so does rFactor) is turn off
> collisions when latency passes a certain
> point - Heat evened turned them into ghost cars.  I've gone right
> through guys in rFactor who had lousy connections without ever
> leaving a mark.  Papy apparently didn't like the idea of heavy
> prediction code so much and preferred to stick closer to the raw data
> they were getting, resulting in the infamous jittering opponents.
> You don't want to get anywhere near them for fear of The Bomb...  ;-)

> But all this speculation about the new EA product is pretty pointless.
> Doesn't look so hot from that video, but no matter; we'll all know if
> it sucks or not in a week or so.

> SB

Will be interesting to see - I'll wait to see what you guys are saying about
it. Right now, it would take a lot to get me back into a Nascar sim.

--
Don Burnette

"When you decide something is impossible to do, try to stay out of the
way of the man that's doing it."

Alan L

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by Alan L » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:08:47

Looks like we'll get to try it out pretty soon.  From BHM:

"They will be releasing a demo of the game during the week of the 17th. The
cars in the demo will represent the 2004 Season artwork, but when the game
releases, we will have a download available in the install that will update
with all of the 2005 car art. Game modes will be restricted to Testing and
Race Now. Other modes will be displayed on the MAIN MENU but selecting them
will induce a popup as below.

VEHICLE

- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #97 - K.Busch - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #48 - J. Johnson - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #24 - J. Gordon - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #6 - M. Martin - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #8 - D. Earnhardt Jr. - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #20 - T. Stewart - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #12 - R. Newman - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #17 - M. Kenseth - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #38 - E. Sadler - Primary
- NEXTEL Cup Series - 2005 - #19 - J. Mayfield - Primary

Kurt Busch to be selected as the default driver.

TRACKS:

- Indianapolis
- Phoenix"

Alan

JP

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by JP » Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:58:35


  First thing to change, is the default driver <g>

Buck41

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by Buck41 » Sat, 15 Jan 2005 05:54:37

Charlie Heath



>> "Phillip Malphrus, Jr" wrote...
>>> yeah :)

>> Nothing wrong with Papy collision code per se, as it was designed for
>> and works fairly well in a low ping environment (i.e. LAN
>> multiplayer).
>> Online was tagged on to GPL at a late stage and, apparently, only
>> slightly improved for the NR200x iterations. As pings rise (and you
>> turn on more cars in NR200x) the design flaw of having each player
>> calculate collisions locally (i.e. clientside) rears its ugly head,
>> as the time needed to exchance info between the players leads to ever
>> more erroneous values being put into the simulation. This creates the
>> infamous and always unexpected online "explosion", even though a
>> contact may, at first, appear minor.
>> Jan.
>> =---

> The online collision code was one of my main gripes - it especially got
> worse after the new physics model was implemented, and deteriorated from
> that point on. There was one fella, the guru of this, can't remember his
> name off hand - once he left, it went downhill.

> --
> Don Burnette

> "When you decide something is impossible to do, try to stay out of the
> way of the man that's doing it."

REDLINE42

Nascar Simulation New Video at EA

by REDLINE42 » Sun, 16 Jan 2005 06:31:36


Ummm... could those be the employees that (I'll try not to say his name ala
Beetlejuice) TP refers too in the "Blast From The Past" thread from several
years ago?

quote:
"****all three of these individuals were mysteriously no longer working at
Papyrus!***"

he he, set the way-back machine Sherman!


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