rec.autos.simulators

Well, not the cutting edge, and a console game to boot.  So maybe I won't get
much of a response.  But heregoes anyway...

I've always been curious as to how good the Gran Turismo series models all the
myriad car setup options.  Even when "***" simming on the PC (GPL, etc),
I never got into setups.  Guess I want to be a driver, not a mechanic :-)  So
I don't have a feel for how accurate the setup options in GT3 are (spring
rates, shock bound/rebound, camber, toe, stabilizers,brake
bias, differential...).  I might get into it if I have some confidence in them
being of high fidelity.  Any comments from those who have a good working
knowledge of handling dynamics both in the real and sim world?

Also, even after completing the game, I never have been able to drive the
mid-engine cars in the GT series worth a damn.  No problem with understeering
fwd or oversteering rwd.  But the mid's (NSX, Elise, Ruf) give me fits.  Even
the front-mid S2000 is relatively hard to drive smoothly.  Are these at all
accurately portrayed?  If so, maybe I really don't want one!  And any secrets
to setting these up so I don't lose it on sustained high speed turns?

Proberly the wrong newsgroup to be posting, but i will say this: Setting up
car is more the driver than the mechanic because the driver has to give good
feedback/suggestions :). However your forgiven :) I personally find the NSX,
especially the race cars and the S2000 also especially the races cars, the
most enjoyable cars to drive. The best way to drive smoothly is to have
heaps of reference points. Have a marker to brake, a maker to start turning
in. A marker to apex, and even a marker to say when you have to get back on
the gas! That way you sort of turn into a robot and makes it easier to brake
later and experiment but with much more consistant lap times! Read the other
GT3 post below and try that newsgroup for more in depth GT3 help

Cool Hand Luke

Heh, I knew I'd get called on that :-)

..

Always good to get tips.  Do note that I did complete the game, which means
competent enough to eclipse all the Time Trial records, including Complex
Course.  Where I have trouble is in sensing when the mid-engines are about to
lose it, and how to real them back in without just being sloppy.  With FWD, I
basically feather the throttle or brake.  If the car is heading to understeer
at the turn exit, just back off a bit on throttle.  If understeering on entry,
a tad more brake or (on a fast turn) less throttle.  RWD isn't much different.
You just also get to play with power-on oversteer.  Which is generally easily
modulated.  Mid-engine cars just seem to lose composure front & back
(essentially "neutral" as we apparently want cars to be), and once done, they
just don't want to respond positively to either throttle or brake modulation.  
They seem to be fast, ie high cornering limits, but sloppy and uncontrollable
when taken just a bit too fast.  I may be overstating the case to make the
point.  I can take the Elise and break the TT#1 record in about 2 laps even if
I haven't driven it in a month.

If that was a link to the PS2 or GT sites, I do occasionally look there.  I
wanted to check here as there is more wheat and less chaff.  Lots of knowledge
here on real cars and real dynamics.  I don't want to just know how to make a
GT3 car run a fast time, if it is just doing it in a way that isn't realistic
(ie, with setup tips that work, but aren't very physics/reality-based).  Plus
this is more like home :-)

Well, I've only played GT 1&2 but the setup options there respond
pretty well, IMHO.  I've been racing R/C model cars for many years
and consider myself something of a chassis guru, and the GT cars
respond pretty much the way I'd expect.

Must be your driving style... I'm a smooth race driver, and I use
very pointy setups (to the point where some people complain my
cars are undriveable - both R/C and GT!) - and the NSX was one
of my favourite cars, especially in Arcade mode where I couldn't
change the setup.

But if it's really the steady-state (long corner) balance which
is causing problems, I'd add some front anti-roll bar (or spring)
if it's low speed, or add some rear wing if it's high speed.

HTH,
Jonny

Haven't played GT3, but in general lifting off the throttle is the wrong
thing to do when you are in trouble in a mid engine car.  That I know
from real life experience.  I made a big mess out of an MR2 a few years
ago by doing that.  Keep a steady throttle and try to keep the wheels
pointed in the direction you are trying to go.  The right amount of
throttle is just a bit less than the amount necessary to continue at
your current speed, so that you are neutralizing the weight transfer and
so that you have plenty of traction left at the rear.  Also try not to
chase the wheel back and forth, this will just make you oscillate worse.

Was that YOU???  Nah, just kidding... :-)
That sucks, though.  Problem is, lifting is MOST people's natural response.

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank:+8.03
N2002 Rank:+20.124

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Exactly.  This was about 15 years ago, when I had an MR2 at the Lockheed
wind tunnel in Georgia, doing some testing.  We were done with the
testing and I was driving it out to load it onto the truck.  There was a
nice little drive with an enticing looking curve between the tunnel and
the truck, so I decided to show off a little and floored it (what can I
say? When you're in your twenties you have more balls than brains).  I
got into the turn a little too hard and, not knowing any better, lifted
to slow down.  I went sideways very fast, tried to correct and just
ended up fishtailing back and forth a couple of times.  Since there
APPEARED to be nothing but grass on the side of the road, I let it go,
thinking I was safe.  Turned out that just a few feet off the side of
the road there was a shallow dip with a raised manhole cover in the
middle of it.  Raised just high enough to trash the right front wheel
and peel open the right side of the car like a can opener.  It bounced
me back on the road and I came to a stop, unhurt but for a very red
face.  I damn near got fired because of that, and it definitely cost me
a promotion.  If only I knew then what I know now...   ;o)

<snip>
<snip>

Hehe...  Good ole' mid engines.  That's a lot wilder than my experience..
After a little rain had slicked up an intersection, I did a 360 in my friend's
Fiero making a hard left hand turn from a stand still after the light turned
green. I didn't even get a chance to try and correct it.  ZOOM!  The car went
around fast!  He promptly made me pull over so he could drive the rest of the
way :-)  (I was 18-19 at the time.)

A few months later in the dry with the same friend (he was driving a little
pickup truck, he never let me drive one of his cars again after the Fiero
incident;-)), we went a bit too quick around a turn and the rear came out, he
over corrected slightly, then over corrected again, and again... and around we
went!  Off the road, into a tree backwards.  The rear window exploded all over
the bed with a little help from the back of my head.  Lucky I've got a hard
noggin', didn't hurt at all.  

Then there was the time in another friend's '71 Firebird doing well over 100mph
at age 16....  Boy!  I didn't know a car could spin around three times and land
dead in the middle of the freeway like that :-)  After realizing we survived
and didn't hit anything, he nailed it (only one of two glasspack mufflers was
left, so it was a LOUD car.)  We started hollering like the guys in the
Mountain Dew commercial after they flipped the golf cart ("That was
AWESOME!!").  I think of that and laugh every time I see that commercial...

<Wondering how I lived to my 20th B-day>

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

My little car sim screenshots:
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

Hello there,

Checkout the Gran Turismo Forum: http://www.granturismo.com
& If your busting to get some regular, quality weekly i.Link Battle
action, checkout the GTiB:  http://www.gtib.net

High revvingly yours,

Pasene Faifua.

GTiB  http://www.gtib.net
GSM +6421844365  http://www.sms.ac

Hello there,

FYI, & for those interested in everything Gran Turismo/GT checkout
http://www.racesimcentral.net/ for anything regarding the GT franchise.

the myriad car setup options.

I too am interested, but just can't spend the time to really get every
ounce out of each setup adjustment.
It's 1 of many reasons why I've chosen to race the GT franchise over
PC driving/racing sims.

dynamics both in the real and sim world?

The 1 area I've disagreed with in regards on setup adjustments in the
GT franchise is the effect of Camber Adjustment.
In my real world experience adding camber generally will improve
cornering.
But in GT I've found that it has the reverse affect.

Camber adjustments that I know are used for certain FF, FR, & MR cars
found in the real world, when applied in GT I find they make the
handling too loose, & less responsive.

Another area that disappoints me is that many of the GT Online League
Racing regulars use unrealistic setup values, which in the real world
would break the car, if not the driver, because of such impossibly
extreme damper/spring/ride height settings.
Watching these players replays highlights how ridiculous their setups
are, by how much their cars bounce & dart all over the place.

I've always preferred racing stock/showroom cars in GT, & find it the
most rewarding because you have to deal with not just carrying speed
into & out of corners, but also weight transfer.

Since the 1st GT, to the latest GTC 2002 T-G its improved each &
everytime there was an update to the franchise.
It so pleasing that finally with GTC 2002 T-G, we get arguably the
same superior & more realistic physics model as usually only available
to the Asian/Japanese Domestic Market.

When I 1st played GT I too struggled with the MR's.
But being a Honda enthusiast, & seeing how effective the NSX type
S-Zero is in BEST MOTORing over the years, I thought it was up to me
to change my driving to suit as my thinking was, surely there's
nothing wrong with the type S-Zero.
Its just what I was trying to do with it that makes it so difficult to
drive.

Since then I've loved driving the MR's, inparticular the tricky [R]
JGTC NSX-GT's with their low ground clearance, short suspension
travel, & their propensity to spin when things get bumpy.

What I've learnt, & noticed watching others who struggle with MR's in

scrub off all your speed as you turn in, like you could in FF/FR.
With MR's you have brake in a straightline, settle the weight of the
car evenly over the front wheels, then as you lift off the brake &
apply the throttle you have to balance the weight transfer using
smooth, subtle steering & throttle input.

I've found MR's are very sensitive to how you set them up as you come
to a turn, as you turn in, & as you exit.
This may sound obvious, but MR's are very sensitive & require smooth,
subtle inputs.
You'll find once you become confident with how they behave that you'll
be able to chuck them about corner to corner like you can easily with
FF/FR.

Personally I find the S2000 in GT2/GT3 to have too much front end
grip, compared to the real world vehicle I drove.
I find the car physics changes made in GTC 2002 T-G have helped
improve the handling of the S2000, & the Tuscan Speed 6.

Interestingly this year also saw changes to the real world S2000, with
changes to its damper/spring rates, as well as changing to smaller
roll bars/stabilisers front & rear to help make its handling less
edgy.

I've driven a few cars in the real world, that have featured in the GT
franchise over the years both on the road, & circuit: EF8 CR-X SiR,
EG6 Civic SiR, EG4 CR-X del Sol SiR, EK9 Civic Type R, BB4 Prelude Si
VTEC, DC2/DB8 Integra Type R 96spec.R, S15 Silvia spec-R, CD6 Accord
SiR, Mirage Cyborg ZR, AP1 S2000, SW20 MR2 G-Limited, FTO GPX.

For me each of the GT releases for their time were the most accurately
modelled game I'd played compared to the same vehicle I'd driven in
the real world.
Each new release/update gets even better, showing there's still more
they can do to make it more realistic.

My most major complaint, as it has been since the 1st GT, is the
engine notes still aren't right.
The DOHC VTEC Honda's just don't scream like they do in the real
world, same goes for all the variable valve timing engines with lift.

Mind you, I love the howl they've got for the Vanquish in GTC 2002
T-G!!!!!!!!!!!!
You sure can hear that thing coming from miles away.

I think you've just got to change the way you go about driving MR,
compared to FF/FR.
Force yourself to learn & adapt, so you can experience the feeling of
balancing the car's weight, with subtle 4 wheel drifts into & out of
turns.
Then you'll understand why race drivers prefer the MR layout.

speed turns?

As I always stick to roadcars I can't offer any setup tips.
But I will tell you that as familiar as I am with MR's in GT, I still
have trouble lapping quickly & thus consistently in GT2 driving the

FWIW you'll find the all new Elise found in GTC 2002 T-G much easier
to handle, though it still sounds awful & much in need of a real
engine like Honda's B18C from the DC2/DB8 Integra Type R.

High revvingly yours,

Pasene Faifua.

GTiB http://www.racesimcentral.net/
GSM +6421844365 http://www.racesimcentral.net/