rec.autos.simulators

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

Joachim Trens

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Joachim Trens » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:53:32

Hi David,

I rather think that most***pit drivers wouldn't care much about the
roofriding question if those who use that view would simply say they use it
because it's easier for them that way, as it gives them a better view of the
track and their opponents, and that's it.

But often the statements you get are something to the effect of:

'it's not advantage at all, I use it because (pick one of the following)
   - it makes me a little faster or
   - helps me see the track better or
   - helps me prevent accidents

etc. etc. :-)

Such statements bear a contradiction within themselves which simply calls
for a reply ;-)

Achim



Joachim Trens

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Joachim Trens » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:01:04

Wrong approach John.

You'll let the***pit riders use the view they're used to, but force
everyone else into a view they're not used to. That puts the***pit riders
at an advantage.

I'm fairly sure a seasoned***pit-jockey would become pretty much of a
menace if he'd suddenly be forced to drive from roof cam :-) (not that they
couldn't learn it after while, of course)

I once damaged my car in an online race and the hood was so crumpled that I
couldn't drive from inside the***pit anymore. Since there were only two or
three laps left in the race I switched to another cam, I forget whether it
was roof or front bumper. Anyway, from that new view I was something like 2
seconds slower per lap than before (it was a road circuit, I forget which).
Part of it was probably the damage, but a bigger part was that I was forced
to use a view I'm not accustomed to :-)

Achim




> > >Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing***pit mode,
> > >and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test).

> > >To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all
> > >driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of
> > >us don't have clutch pedals).

> > Why's that?  I'm afraid I don't understand your reasoning...
> > I thought the driving aids made you slower anyway?  I doubt people ARE
running
> > with the driving aids...

> > Eldred

> Some folks rujn with the driving line on, some run with steering
> help, etc. etc.  Others roof-ride.  I was just interested in seeing
> if there really is an advantage to using/not using them, and the only
> way to prove it is to run a race without those aids.

Joachim Trens

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Joachim Trens » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:04:04

I forgot to add the statement I actually wanted to make: <g>

you need to force everyone to drive in the other's view to make it a fair
comparison. Roofriders into the***pit,***pit drivers onto the roof :-)

Achim


> Wrong approach John.

> You'll let the***pit riders use the view they're used to, but force
> everyone else into a view they're not used to. That puts the***pit
riders
> at an advantage.

> I'm fairly sure a seasoned***pit-jockey would become pretty much of a
> menace if he'd suddenly be forced to drive from roof cam :-) (not that
they
> couldn't learn it after while, of course)

> I once damaged my car in an online race and the hood was so crumpled that
I
> couldn't drive from inside the***pit anymore. Since there were only two
or
> three laps left in the race I switched to another cam, I forget whether it
> was roof or front bumper. Anyway, from that new view I was something like
2
> seconds slower per lap than before (it was a road circuit, I forget
which).
> Part of it was probably the damage, but a bigger part was that I was
forced
> to use a view I'm not accustomed to :-)

> Achim





> > > >Elrded, I would like to recommend that you try forcing***pit mode,
> > > >and make the track Dover (a super wouldn't be a good test).

> > > >To all the drivers, I would like to recommend that you turn off all
> > > >driving aids (with the possible exception of the clutch since all of
> > > >us don't have clutch pedals).

> > > Why's that?  I'm afraid I don't understand your reasoning...
> > > I thought the driving aids made you slower anyway?  I doubt people ARE
> running
> > > with the driving aids...

> > > Eldred

> > Some folks rujn with the driving line on, some run with steering
> > help, etc. etc.  Others roof-ride.  I was just interested in seeing
> > if there really is an advantage to using/not using them, and the only
> > way to prove it is to run a race without those aids.

Schoone

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Schoone » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:41:53

So your saying roof riders will beat***pit drivers typically then is that
it?
Hmm, that's not what we have seen in our or other leagues, overall it's
pretty equal split amoung all views.


> Hi David,

> I rather think that most***pit drivers wouldn't care much about the
> roofriding question if those who use that view would simply say they use
it
> because it's easier for them that way, as it gives them a better view of
the
> track and their opponents, and that's it.

> But often the statements you get are something to the effect of:

> 'it's not advantage at all, I use it because (pick one of the following)
>    - it makes me a little faster or
>    - helps me see the track better or
>    - helps me prevent accidents

> etc. etc. :-)

> Such statements bear a contradiction within themselves which simply calls
> for a reply ;-)

> Achim



> > I wouldn't bother with this experiment John.

> > I couldn't care less what view someone else uses. The FOV in sims stinks
> and
> > is completely unrealistic. Depth perception stinks and is completely
> > unrealistic. The fact we are viewing everything through tiny little
> monitors
> > is a joke, and is completely unrealistic.

> > It's obvious these guys who make a big deal out of this issue just want
to
> > try and come off as super serious sim racers. Probably because they are
> > lacking in pure skill.

> > David G Fisher

Joachim Trens

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Joachim Trens » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:58:56

I'm only saying that the statements made by those who use the roof cam about
the benefits of using that view are sometimes a bit contradictory within
themselves (i.e. when they say it's no advantage but then continue to give a
list of advantages as a reason why they use that view), and that's what
makes people want to reply to such messages. I am not talking about who's
faster or anything, i.e. I have explicitely avoided making any statements as
to what's 'better' or such.

And my message was a bit tongue in cheek of course :-)

Achim


John Simmon

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by John Simmon » Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:51:22



> I'm only saying that the statements made by those who use the roof cam about
> the benefits of using that view are sometimes a bit contradictory within
> themselves (i.e. when they say it's no advantage but then continue to give a
> list of advantages as a reason why they use that view), and that's what
> makes people want to reply to such messages. I am not talking about who's
> faster or anything, i.e. I have explicitely avoided making any statements as
> to what's 'better' or such.

> And my message was a bit tongue in cheek of course :-)

> Achim



> > So your saying roof riders will beat***pit drivers typically then is
> that
> > it?
> > Hmm, that's not what we have seen in our or other leagues, overall it's
> > pretty equal split amoung all views.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what ***in view everyone uses.  
I've never seen any instance of a driver having an unfair advantage
over other drivers because of a specific view they use.  

Even smoke is an advantage/disadvantage.  In one way, you can see
***happening much farther away, but when you have to drive thru the
smoke, you're taking a big risk.  If you don't have smoke turned on,
you can't see cars getting out of shape until you're right up on
them, and you sometimes can't slow down in time so you smack into
them.

I like the smoke thing (afterall, it adds a bit of e***ment and
illustrates cars in trouble very early), but roof view at least makes
me competitive on the road courses.  It's also safer to drive that
way because you can see problems on the track in time to prepare for
some kind of avoidance manuever.  On ovals it provides no benefit
unless my hood is pushed up and blocking the windshield.

I don't participate in races where***pit view is forced on because
I think it's a bit presumptuous on the part of the server admin (on
pickup races) to assume that everyone else wants to share in his
sense of "realism", and it's now very safe in an online setting
anyway.

I think Papy blew it when they didn't give admins a way to force the
driving aids off.  To me, those settings create more of an advantage
than what view you drive from.

Ed Solhei

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Ed Solhei » Fri, 29 Nov 2002 23:40:02

"David G Fisher" said:

Realism has nothing to do with it (i.e the reasonfor my initial requests)

What I want in an equal set of rules for all the drivers in a race.

--
ed_

Schoone

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Schoone » Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:09:14

So what about guys that run multi monitors with the new Matrox card?  Would
that still be fair?  They have a wider fov but use the same***pit view.


Dave Henri

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Dave Henri » Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:28:47

    One of my very first online races was the short oval at Martinsville.
There was the usual first lap pile up and I managed to tbone one of the cars
that got involved.  The hood obscurred 90% of my field of view.  I was about
to duck into the pits for repairs when I noticed I was 2nd.  So I stayed
out.  I took the highest line I could and just motored around.  Only a few
of the fellows that went into the pits for repairs got out in time to unlap
themselves enough to get ahead of me in the standings.  I think I finished
about 5th overall.  Back in the joystick days...I was quite pleased with
that result.
stayed inside the whole way.
dave henrie
Dave Henri

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Dave Henri » Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:30:11


   Short-term that would be an equalizer, but the long term plan is to have
EVERYONE comfortable with the same view....mine....:)
Maybe I should run for King or something
dave henrie

Joachim Trens

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Joachim Trens » Sat, 30 Nov 2002 01:46:20

Hi John,

even in real life racing, there are always differences. Teams have different
equipment, one set of tires can be better than another out of coincidence,
etc. etc.

Differences are part of racing, I've decided to accept them as a given and
simply forget about them.

Achim




> > I'm only saying that the statements made by those who use the roof cam
about
> > the benefits of using that view are sometimes a bit contradictory within
> > themselves (i.e. when they say it's no advantage but then continue to
give a
> > list of advantages as a reason why they use that view), and that's what
> > makes people want to reply to such messages. I am not talking about
who's
> > faster or anything, i.e. I have explicitely avoided making any
statements as
> > to what's 'better' or such.

> > And my message was a bit tongue in cheek of course :-)

> > Achim



> > > So your saying roof riders will beat***pit drivers typically then is
> > that
> > > it?
> > > Hmm, that's not what we have seen in our or other leagues, overall
it's
> > > pretty equal split amoung all views.

> In the end, it doesn't really matter what ***in view everyone uses.
> I've never seen any instance of a driver having an unfair advantage
> over other drivers because of a specific view they use.

> Even smoke is an advantage/disadvantage.  In one way, you can see
> ***happening much farther away, but when you have to drive thru the
> smoke, you're taking a big risk.  If you don't have smoke turned on,
> you can't see cars getting out of shape until you're right up on
> them, and you sometimes can't slow down in time so you smack into
> them.

> I like the smoke thing (afterall, it adds a bit of e***ment and
> illustrates cars in trouble very early), but roof view at least makes
> me competitive on the road courses.  It's also safer to drive that
> way because you can see problems on the track in time to prepare for
> some kind of avoidance manuever.  On ovals it provides no benefit
> unless my hood is pushed up and blocking the windshield.

> I don't participate in races where***pit view is forced on because
> I think it's a bit presumptuous on the part of the server admin (on
> pickup races) to assume that everyone else wants to share in his
> sense of "realism", and it's now very safe in an online setting
> anyway.

> I think Papy blew it when they didn't give admins a way to force the
> driving aids off.  To me, those settings create more of an advantage
> than what view you drive from.

Joachim Trens

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Joachim Trens » Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:09:11

:-)

Achim


...

Joachim Trens

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Joachim Trens » Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:10:33

Tsk tsk, you were a menace for the others if you could only see 10% and
still continued to drive from***pit ;-)

Achim


...

Dan Belch

RASCAR: Next Nascar Race

by Dan Belch » Sat, 30 Nov 2002 11:51:45

Well, in your opinion at least it'd be more fun.  I think it'd be more of a
pain in the ass to drive road courses and short tracks then!  :)

-----------------------------------------
Dan Belcher
Webmaster,
http://simcrash.fameflame.dk


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