rec.autos.simulators

it's funny, isn't it. F1 claims to be the most technically advanced racing
series in the world, and yet they need to dumb down the racetracks so F1
cars can drive on them. Strange ;-)

Achim

Stephen

It is indeed!

I'd like to see F1 cars on some 'unspoiled' tracks, like Oulton Park
(shell), Brands Hatch (GP), Knockhill (anyone played TOCA2?!) and various
other greats from around the world (Laguna Seca, Mount Panorama...).

Sadly, it'll never happen.  :-(

--
Richard.

"Got to be good looking, cos it's so hard to please."

To be fair to the circuit, they get *nothing else* from a race weekend.  
F1 gets all the hospitality, concessions etc, all silverstone gets is the
gate ticket and nothing else.  The prices are stupidly high, and I won't
be sorry to see no GP at silverstone, but they had to reduce capacity to
60,000 from 90,000 and could not afford to charge less for a ticket.  Now
those prices may be moot of course.

As for circuits having to be dumbed down, it's because the cars are so
fast these days that it's beyond the physical capabilities of a human
being to drive them with a suitable level of risk at the limit otherwise.

cheers
John

The Aust GP has over 130,000 race day, something like 440,000 over the
4 days. With a gen. admission ticket at AU$155 for 4 days (or 50
pounds) it's not bad value. They haven't yet made a profit, but that
is due to the enormous setup and pull down costs with a temporary
grand prix within a park. If they had a permanent stand and facilities
set up like Silverstone they would be making a packet.

I don't buy that line of thinking myself. There are plenty of circuits
which are able to offer a challenge as well as overtaking
opportunities. Canada, Spa, Malaysia, Austria, etc. are all quality
circuits which offer passing possibilities and are still quite safe.
Silverstone has just had twisty bits added to twisty bits to more
twisty bits. Until they restore a decent length straight, it will
always be mickey mouse.

Rafe Mc

With the exception of the races at Suzuki and Malaysia, modern F1 is
the most boring form of motorsport in the world.

--Jason

On the other hand, Silverstone today _is_ a kludge. They've just tried
to add too much to it. But they're changing the layout soon. We'll see
if it gets better by then. Otherwise a complete makeover a'la A1-ring
may be better.

Case in point; a thing like Gidley's crash at Road America, smacking
into a concrete bridge foundation sideways at 250 km/h isn't something
that would be likely to happen in F1.  You should've heard the
TV-commentators here in Europe totally thrashing the safety level of
US events after that incident...

Laguna Seca... did have a fatality in CART just two years ago, now
didn't it? Besides, I don't know how good it would be for F1's
anyways. I think it is too narrow and not enough straights for those
cars to stretch out. Going from this year's CART event there I'm all
the more certain of it. It would be like Hungaroring, but with a
corkscrew.

Well, at least the most yellow I see is on the Jordan fan section.
<rolls eyes>

No, they get nothing from corporate facilities, the guy from octagon was
on Watchdog (UK consumer interest TV programme) and while he may/may not
have been shifty, he can't outright lie on the tv.  F1 gets all revenue
bar the gate receipts, the circuit gets the gate and no more.  At least
that is (was?) the situation for Silverstone- other tracks may or may not
have different agreements.

F1 insisted they lower the attendance (no skin off F1's nose, they don't
get the gate anyway, who cares if 30,000 fewer die hards in woolly hats
show up?).  Silverstone couldn't cope with 90,000 spectators last year.

I disagree that spa is safe. Malaysia has also been subject to criticism
as a new track, being flat, but aye, they at least built some raceability
into it.  There's only so much you can do with an existing circuit, having
to put chicanes etc in to lower cornering speeds further down the track is
the only solution short of a complete tearing up and redesigning of a
track.  

It's possible to build a new track with exciting corners and overtaking
potential basing it on the current speeds in F1, but it's not possible in
every case to do the same with older circuits- what was a great corner in
1967 (for example) is now a death trap which has to be neutered.  Maybe
these new tracks (russia? china?) will be designed with modern F1 in mind
(also the proposals for Silverstone looked very interesting)

With a tobacco advertising ban looming over the traditional circuits
(those in Europe), it makes sense to move F1 into newer territories, with
tracks purpose designed for F1, and where the money men can still be happy
to follow the circus.  That leaves the old "proper" tracks for the other
formulae, sports cars, F3 etc.

The alternative is more restrictions on car performance, but then everyone
just complains that innovation gets banned, mind you then they complain
about traction control ?:(

cheers
John

It's not possible to corner under the loads that the F1 cars are/were
capable of generating.  CART may be "faster" but speed means nothing in
this context if it's drag racing, it's lateral forces that are the
problem, and F1 cars made more lateral G than CART cars as far as I
remember, and that is the problem.  CART don't have to adapt the circuits
because CART cars aren't capable of cornering at the speeds of an F1 car.  
Top speed and acceleration are not part of the equation in this argument.

No, CART is much more tedious.  I fell asleep watching the UK Rockingham
"race" and I switched off the Molson Canadian as a disgraceful demolition
derby.  See, I can troll too :P

Cheers
John

    JD

I'll clarify: The lateral Gs have only been an issue at oval tracks for
CART as far as I'm aware.  A comment was raised that CART has not needed
to modify the "road courses" it runs on, my counter argument is that
Formula 1 cars are capable of cornering  on "road courses" with the kind
of lateral Gs that would be only otherwise be seen on an *oval* track in a
CART race.  This is only true of certain turns on particular tracks, but
it is the reason for all the "mickey mouse" chicanes on the "classic" F1
circuits, and part of the design consideration of a modern circuit such as
Sepang.  CART cars are incapable of pulling the same lateral G's on any of
the existing turns on the road and street courses they run at.

Therefore circuits that wish to host F1 events must have areas of the
course redesigned to limit the cornering speeds.

Hope that's cleared my position :)

cheers
John

Don't get me wrong ... I dislike chicanes as a means of slowing cars down as
much as anyone, but I don't understand all the criticism that F1 gets for its
tracks.  Sure, some of the great, historic tracks have lost much of their
glory (Imola), but there still are some fine circuits (Spa, Suzuka, Sepang
...) I see very little complaint over all the truly Mickey Mouse street
courses in CART - flat, featureless layouts behind walls of armco.

The shortage of passing in F1 has other, more substantial factors.

There is a greater disparity in performance levels of the teams, causing the
best teams to pull away.  And they don't use the pace/safety car every 15
minutes to artificially bunch the cars together. The last couple of years have
definitely been more interesting with three strong teams - Ferrari, McLaren
and Williams - passing each other fairly regularly at the front of the field.
However, the team/driver with the best race setup usually pulls away.

Then there is aerodynamics - the wings in F1 cause lots of dirty air, making
it difficult to stay close behind someone in a long, fast turn.

While F1 could benefit from closer racing at the front, I still prefer the way
they do it to other forms of racing where a pass is completely meaningless
until the last two or three laps.

Dave Ewing

--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing

*****************************************************

  I agree with part of your argument.  There has actually been very little
passing between Mclaren and Ferrari ON TRACK over the last four years.
Generally pit strategy has been far more influential than passing....How
many of the Leaders did Mika pass at Indy this past year?  None that I can
think of...yet he wins going away.
  The big guns CAN pass the lesser teams easily, as Mika has shown several
times after punts forced him back.  But when it comes right down to it...the
Big players over the last 4 years actually only raced each other perhaps a
half dozen times.  There just hasn't been the mano y mano duels.   Only each
driver setting a pace and timing pitstops to try & gain advantage.
dave henrie