rec.autos.simulators

It seems that NASCAR has traction help. If you configure the control
for acceleration on a button youll be able to turn faster lap times.
It transforms NASCAR racing from a simulator into an arcade game.
I tried a setup that was almost uncontrollable with acceleration set
on the x axis of the joystick, with the button I was soon turning
183s at Atlanta with a full tank and cold tires.

Were the lap records posted on the Papyrus BBS set this way?

Will we have to use this method to be competitive on the Network?

Was this intentional or is it a bug?

With world circuit using the buttons was a disadvantage, seems like it
should be with NASCAR too.

Yes, I have noticed the same thing. I started driving Nascar Racing
with only a Virtual Pilot and used the buttons for
accelerating/braking. Then I bought the CH Pedals and as stated above
driving became much more difficult tractionwise. I was a bit surprised
about this fact. I can do faster laps at road tracks with the pedals
and then I can do faster laps at the ovals with just using the buttons
on my Virtual Pilot. I guess you might call it "traction help" a la
F1GP. Mr. Genter if you are reading, please comment on this!

I'd like to know that too. A question for IVGA people can your FASTLAP
program verify which method is being used for applying gas/brake?

Greetings,

Pekka Heino
Flyin'Finn

I guess you might call it "traction help" a la
F1GP. Mr. Genter if you are reading, please comment on this!
<<<

There is no traction help when using a digital control for acceleration or
braking. The difference is that we don't instantly give you full
acceleration/braking when the button is clicked; instead we ramp up the
acceleration/braking. (The same goes for keyboard steering; we don't just
slam the wheels left/right, we turn them steadily.)

My guess is that with an analog input you're giving the car too much gas
too quickly. Don't start out flooring it; increase the gas steadily, just
as you would a real car.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

It amounts to the same thing as traction help. I can reduce the rear
spoiler to 40 and put all the weight at the rear and the car will
still be easy to handle. In modem racing this is a huge advantage!!
The loose setups that are a handful are the fastest, and with a lot of
weight in the back the right front tire will last longer. The buttons
remove the disadvantages invloved in such a setup, ie a much harder
car to drive. Especially on cold tires.
I personally like NASCAR because it is a simulator and look forward to
the Network as long as it's an even playing field. I hope there will
be a way to seperate those running in "simulator" mode and those
running in "arcade" mode.

Rick,
  I feel and many others on compuserve feel that this "traction help"
is too much.  It allows those to use digital gas/brake with a steering
wheel to gain upto 3-5mph over those who use analog gas/brake.
  If you dont believe us, take a setup that you use for analog
gas/brake and try it using digital gas/brake.  First you will find
that the setup is too tight, you have to loosen it up.  This loosening
up gives you more speed!  Conclusion: unfair advantage.  Digital
drivers can drive a looser car than those who use analog gas/brake
resulting in faster lap times.
  Now take a setup you use for digital gas/brake and try it using
analog gas/brake.  Man this setup is extremely loose, you are lucky if
you can turn a lap with it.  Now you have to tighten up the car to be
able to drive it.  Conclusion: digital has unfair advantage, you are
taking a fast setup and slowing it down by tightening it up to drive
analog resulting in slower lap speeds.
  I do know how to ease on/off the gas/brake so this isnt the problem.
The problem is obviously there is some sort of so called "traction
help" for the digital users.  I really think this needs to be changed,
especially sense we will be racing on the network and all these
digital guys will have an unfair advantage, and if they know how to
setup a car they should be unbeatable versus an analog driver with the
same knowledge of setup.

Please take some real serious concern in this, dont blow it off,
Mike

 I feel and many others on compuserve feel that this "traction help"
is too much.  It allows those to use digital gas/brake with a steering
wheel to gain upto 3-5mph over those who use analog gas/brake.
  If you dont believe us, take a setup that you use for analog
gas/brake and try it using digital gas/brake.  First you will find
that the setup is too tight, you have to loosen it up.  This loosening
up gives you more speed!  Conclusion: unfair advantage.  Digital
drivers can drive a looser car than those who use analog gas/brake
resulting in faster lap times.
<<<

Again, there IS NO TRACTION HELP in NASCAR (or IndyCar II). I know; I had
to modify the input code to add mouse driving.

And again, the fastest driver we have in-house uses analog pedals for
driving.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

Consider it blown off. It'll be buttons if you want to compete.

     >  Now take a setup you use for digital gas/brake and try it using
     >analog gas/brake.  Man this setup is extremely loose, you are lucky if
     >you can turn a lap with it.  Now you have to tighten up the car to be
     >able to drive it.  Conclusion: digital has unfair advantage, you are
     >taking a fast setup and slowing it down by tightening it up to drive
     >analog resulting in slower lap speeds.
     >  I do know how to ease on/off the gas/brake so this isnt the problem.
     >The problem is obviously there is some sort of so called "traction
     >help" for the digital users.  I really think this needs to be changed,
     >especially sense we will be racing on the network and all these
     >digital guys will have an unfair advantage, and if they know how to
     >setup a car they should be unbeatable versus an analog driver with the
     >same knowledge of setup.

If its so much faster using keyboard, then use the keyboard, toss your
wheel and pedals, and shut up.

---
 * TLX v4.10 * Explain counter-clockwise to someone with a digital watch
---
 * OLX 2.2 TD *

   >  I do know how to ease on/off the gas/brake so this isnt the problem.

The "Digital help" he is talking about is a gradual application of brakes
or gas with a button of somekind by the game.  Of course, with a Analog
device such as pedals, your foot snapping to the floor is a much more
sudden action than the computer simulates for buttons.  

But this can be a disadvantage as well as an advantage.  I race my friend
in ICR2, where the same thing applies, and he consistantly outbrakes me
into corners.  It's not setup, we exchanged setups and it still happends.
In that situation, his sudden brake application enables him to brake later
into the corner than me with my joystick button can.

The advantage is not just with braki ng in NASCAR where with analog
it's easy to brake the rear end loose accelerating. With digital you
can apply throttle at any point in a turn the back end will not break
loose. If your using a joystick it's easy to prove. If you have
controls set to X-axis for brake and gas change to buttons and take
the car for a spin. The 1st thing you'll notice is that you don't have
to baby the car until the tires heat up. The car will still push but
not break loose.
With this advantage you can set up the car will extra weight in the
back to get more life out of the right front in addition to faster lap
times.
If you've been using digital try switching to analog and check out the
difference.
The keyboard is no advantage despite being digital because turning is
such a pain.

I can understand Papyrus wanting to appeal to as many people as
possible with different control methods but with analog it requires
much more skill to drive. I predict that the fastest drivers on the
upcoming network will be digital gas and brake users. It will be easy
to convert pedals to digital.

I have.  It is a bit harder, but if you're good at it, you can outbrake as
well as outfeather (throttle) your opponent.  It's hard to go part throttle
with a button.