rec.autos.simulators

I say that MS and ANY company, business, corner store, entrepeneur, or
lemonade stand makes the decisions as to what goes in it's products. Period.
You can buy the products or you can spend your money elsewhere. It's a
concept as old as civilization. Like I said, other people as well as ***
web sites could have released the file but chose not too. Ever wonder why?
Whether or not the game should have the file is a separate issue. I don't
think that op3dfx has the right to make it available. Only the owner of the
product has that right. MS. Just like a hacker doesn't have the right to
change the reviews on the op3dfx web site to reflect what the hacker
believes. Simple enough for you. I hope you have (maybe you do) a business
someday and some *** the street walks in and tells you how to run it.

Dave

Cheers!

Marc

--

(please remove '_*_' when replying)

Sim Racing News - http://www.racesimcentral.net/
The Sim Project - http://www.racesimcentral.net/

* No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

<<they would give me a 2 year old copy of MS Money for FREE.>>

Payola gets 'em every time! What's the weather like in the Philadelphia
area?

Bart Brown

<<I don't think that op3dfx has the right to make it available. Only the
owner of the product has that right. MS.>>

Perhaps. But *I* think people who have been getting ripped off by this
*** of a sim have a right to know as many details about it as it's
possible to unearth. Microsoft sure isn't going to step forward and
explain themselves. Don't you -- even for a hypothetical moment -- think
it's QUITE possible that MS buried any mention of Glide compatibility so
they could force-feed everyone THEIR pitiful 3D product? Or don't you
think Microsoft would stoop to that level?

Bart Brown

You are WRONG to post such a file, it's not even an "official" patch!! And where
 did you get this file??

Shame.. Shame..

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Let me check, buzard. What was the point of sending me a phony e-mail
anyway? Or did you ask a friend to send it? Actually it was 84 and sunny
today. What's it like in England?

Dave

    PS - don't bother pointing out legal bullshit to me. I'm a criminal
in the eyes of anyone who accepts the government of any country on
planet Earth. MS is the criminal in my eyes. Now all I need is the power
to ENFORCE my set of laws :)

Let me check, buzard. What was the point of sending me a phony e-mail
anyway? Or did you ask a friend to send it? Actually it was 84 and sunny
today. What's it like in England?

Dave --

Are you suffering from a bout of paranoia? I didn't send you ANY email;
I posted a message here. I don't need friends to send my email for me,
nor do I hide behind some phony address or spam-blocker -- I'm pretty
up-front. I don't call people names, either -- what's with the "buzard"
[sic]?

I haven't the foggiest (get it?) what the weather's like in England, but
here on Connecticut's fabulous vacation shoreline, it's a beautiful cool
Spring day.

Bart Brown

Yes they do have that right to decide what goes into thier products. And as
MS is finding out, people are not buying that particular product, and they
ARE spending their money elsewhere.....GPL, F1RS, ICR2, Nascar2, Nascar3,
GP3, etc. etc.
I just don't think this makes MS look very good in my opinion.....Yes I will
still use NT at work and 95 at home to play games, and will still use Word
to type my letters, hell, I'm even using Outlook Express to type this damn
note....but will I ever use another MS game? I doubt it. And TRI is the real
one to get hurt. They coded a game that supported Glide and MS stripped it.
Because of a bad decision on MS, the game will be in the $5 bargain bin by
summer if it's not there already, and TRI will not get asked to create
another game for MS because MS will say, there's no market for that, look at
how poorly CPR did......Well, shit, MS, if you had let the Glide support
stay in from the get-go, your sales would have been higher, and more people
would have given that shoddy game a try. It IS Political garbage, and in my
opinion, MS made the WRONG decision this time around......gamers are a picky
group and they hold grudges for a long time......

Craig Marcho

Someone named buzard from r.a.s. wrote me an e-mail letter yesterday
concerning the recent posting I had about F1 races on TV. In my reply I
mention I live in the Philadelphia area. A little while later there is a
posting from you asking me how the weather is in the "Philadelphia area".
Kind of a coincidence, don't you think? If that's all it was then I
apologize.

Dave

t>...

3 of the games you just mentioned aren't even released.
Are you sure CPR hasn't sold a lot of copies? More than F1 (which I like)? I
have a strong feeling they do very well with all their game sales and I KNOW
they will continue to do well with their next racing game release.

Dave

t>...

% While this is all true, at the same time Microsoft is far from
% blameless in this issue. It appears that the Glide support is actually
% programmed into the game, works fine, improves performance, and was
% removed for the purely POLITICAL reason of Microsoft not wanting to
% admit that Glide is better (faster) than D3D. They even said as much
% on this forum, that the Glide version was no faster, a claim which
% from early testing results of this "patch" seems to be a bald faced
% lie.

Something does smell fishy here.  There was some PR ***being dished
out by Microsoft (when they had a presence here in r.a.s.) about this.
It seems that they said were "looking" into a "patch/port" to Glide,
but then they found no peformance gain (except for really slow
machines).  They therefore were not going to persue a Glide port, but
would instead work on improving the D3D frame rate.  Here is a post from
Dean Lester of Microsoft (for more posts regarding this PR ***check
www.dejanews and do a Super Search filtering on group:

glide).

   _________________________________________________________________

Subject:      Re: No GLIDE for CPR...

Date:         1997/12/10

Newsgroups:   rec.autos.simulators

[Subscribe to rec.autos.simulators]  New!
[More Headers]

Craig,

Here is my original posting to give you all the information you need in
order
to discuss this subject:-

=================================================
Dan,

The good news is we have achieved between 25 and 50% (or greater) frame rate
improvements for ALL users regardless of 3D card type - or no 3D card at
all.

We did a lot of benchmarking on Glide (that's what we have been doing for
the last 3 weeks) but it didn't buy us very much  - you need a really slow
(yes, s-l-o-w) machine to see any difference at all. So TRi found several
other ways to achieve much better improvements - for everyone.

I am sure many of the "3D experts" on this NG will cry foul - but TRi  spent
weeks on the Glide version and have benchmarked the two versions of the SAME
game side-by-side. Anyone else who has done this much research and coding in
this area is welcome to offer their data - but the glib "Glide is much
faster than D3D" story does not turn out to be the case. I am sure that
won't satisfy everyone - especially those that love a good MS ***
theory - but that's the reality.

And before anyone posts their MS *** theory <yawn>, go here and check
out a posting that corresponds exactly with what we found - and these guys
have no reason to support MS - they develop a competing product to our own
Flight Simulator ...

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
39978.800457020&hitnum=0

"The patch is indeed reality. It should be on our web site next week. It
does not include native glide support. But its not like that would get you
vast speed improvements anyway. We've worked hard to get good efficiency
with d3d. The biggest thing you can do for your hardware performance is to
make sure your driver supports DrawPrimitive.

-James Fleming,
lead programmer on fu2"

===============================================================

We have benchmark data and a side-by-side comparison - but please share *
your *
code examples and findings on this complex subject of hardware abstraction
layers and
3D api's to help us improve the game for everyone.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Dave<<

Dave--

Yes, a coincidence. First, if I was going to call myself "Buzzard", I'd
spell it correctly. Second, I happened to notice one of your posts in a
bird newsgroup, saying you'd had a good experience with an avian vet in
Philadelphia -- as I used to live in the Philly area (beautiful, scenic
Norristown), it caught my eye -- now THERE's a coincidence...

Bart

Wait a minute, here. You tell Craig Marcho that his argument isn't valid
because 3 of the games he mentioned aren't even released, and then you
go on to assert that you "KNOW" MS "will continue to do well with their
next racing game release"? Is it just me, or is there a logic solecism
between the beginning of your statement and its end? How can Craig's
conjecture be utterly invalid (it certainly isn't for ICR2 and NASCAR2),
and "your" conjecture be completely written in stone?

As to CPR selling a lot of copies -- I would hazard a guess that, except
for the initial rollout of a sim, when rebates are often offered as an
incentive to try something new, the rebate weapon isn't brought out
again except in the case of flagging sales -- and currently, MS is
offering rebates up the kazoo for their CPR Beta. If that's how you
think demand and supply works in a free-market economy, let me introduce
you to the works of Milton Keynes and John Kenneth Galbraith...

Bart Brown

Small world.  :)

Dave