rec.autos.simulators

True that... another possibility is to try the '65 mod. Those cars will
really teach you how to carry speed.

I don't think books really accellerated my learning curve (racing and
talking to better drivers did), but a lot of them are great reads anyway and
it does help to know what one should be doing. Don't get the Senna one,
though, as it's just a testament to the man's inability to explain how he
did what he did.

Indeed, pick somewhere where blowing a lap is no big deal. Brand Hatch Indy,
e.g.

Among the original tracks, I think Kyalami is a great learning tool.

This is the key... concentrate on technique and speed will come
automatically. Really, it will.

Very true, I see drivers who've been "trying to go quickly" for years still
fail every week. People have pointed out their errors a thousand times, but
they're simply not willing to accept one has to drive within one's means to
get better

Jan.
=---

Of course there's another school of thought among some frequent ras
posters that if you're slow it's all Hillary Clinton's fault ;)

1st, does this guy have a wheel or driving by keyboard?  that is the 1st
question, because if he's simming with keyboard or those silly controllers
like playstation/Xbox's have he's F'n crazy, and a lost cause on a SIM...  &
I dont care what f'n book he reads, he's gonna be lucky to make a lap around
the car carriers that the Westbrother's drew..

2nd, what KIND of wheel, can we help him get it setup correctly?  How many
simmers have we heard from {in the last 10 years (including me)} that
couldn't drive for "sheit" until finally someone shared the settings they
used for the wheels, be the wheel Thrust crappers, MicroSucks or LogiSacs,
Thomas or even Ecci's,  if you don't set them up right in windows as well as
in games, you get screwed by how it relates input into the games.

3rd, this is all assuming he wasn't a troller..

So will the real Mr.T please answer up?

I've always liked GPL but haven't been good enough to get around the
track. I'd like to thank Peter for his article:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/21gpltip.htm
which has helped me drive without spinning or crashing (not the
quickest in the world, but it's a start). Kyalami and Monza are my
favourite tracks at the moment. A lot of the stuff in there is common
sense, but it helps to be reminded which things you should concentrate
on first.

Thankyou everyone for your helpful responses - I really do appreciate
it.

Mr T.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/21gpltip.htm

RobP

least you weren't 2 of 3 guesses (trolling or keyboard racer) like I was
betting on, and yeah I wholly understand the money thing VS wheels.  But the
pad, will be very hard to overcome, because I believe you don't actually
give gas or brake inputs in a "positional" relativity for the game, let
alone the improbability to being precise with a throttle button.   IE in
real life how far the the brake/gas pedal moves, lest say "X" amount of
travel (albeit over simplified) means X amount of braking force was applied
to the car, The sim is written to try and be somewhat parallel to that
principle.   But you have a button that is either fully depressed or not
pressed, where as the rest of us have somewhere between 0-255 or more
different places along an axis of travel to relate how much brake I wish to
have applied to the "sim" car.

As far I I have experimented, the same is not true with most of those ***
pads, where if you don't have some precision in braking/throttle/steering,
then your movements of such a device is simply a crapshoot of whether it
works out in the sim or not..!   where as a plain old game, like Need for
speeds, MX madness and the like, and the like, they code the game knowing
dang well that with the gamepad, you are instead of giving precise inputs,
you are essentially rolling the dice as you would in a turn based game like
D&D or some shit.

So it goes something like this...      "Lets see here I'm headed for the
chicane, at 99.478 miles per hour, fifth gear nearly touching the left wall,
the run is uphill and sweeps out to a nice hairpin 100 yards down the track.
So I pick up my 2 eight sided, and with my experience points, and elf/magic
level (assuming I don't cast a spell for luck), I have to roll only a total
of 10 or better to make this corner..."   Well, essentially, that is what
you're doing, and it just doesn't cut it in the sim world, really.  But one
thing is sure, you will get to know the tracks pretty well at least, and
when you stumble across a deal on a wheel, if you aren't burnt out, you will
really appreciate it.

Good luck Mr. T.

There are gamepads with dual analog sticks, and even analog "triggers". It's
far from ideal for driving, but if that's what you have, that's what you've
got. Heck, I vaguely remember a time before forcefeedback and TrackIR. :)

It's mostly a mental thing. Even with a great wheel, we're still missing the
rest of the feedback. Lateral g's; middle ear yaw rate; vibrational cues;
and even the graphics are somewhat delayed and not quite 20/10. We still
manage somehow. Getting your head wrapped around the problem of going fast
is a necessary first step. You don't need a megabuck wheel to do that.

All that said, wheel feedback is by far the most important, after fast
enough framerate and sound. The rest of it is secondary in real life. When
you can afford it, the expense of a good wheel is justified. Even without
the subtle feedback cues, the finer control input will make a difference.

Cheers, uwe

--
GPG Fingerprint:  2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F  67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

One method not mentioned so far in this thread is driver induced
understeer, used while lifting off the throttle or braking. Steer
inwards, maybe all the way, to wash out the front end and create
an understeer or drift reaction from the car. This works best in
GPL and is a common method. It works ok with NR2003, but in the
case of the original GTR, with it's snap oversteer physics, it
doesn't work as well.

For GPL, recommended *** setting for beginners is 85/45/4.
This allows a player to learn how to control lift throttle induced
oversteer (induced understeer and throttle inputs control the
amount of slowing and turn in with a "loose" coast side differential).

Why would this be tied to using only a joystick, though?  Sounds like,
if the exploit's there then it's there for all to make use of, whether
using a joystick, wheel or whatever.

Why would it be easier for joystick users to exploit?

I used to use only a joystick with GPL when I first began, and became
fairly quick with it.  I wasn't deliberately trying to 'exploit' the
game physics in any way, I just found I could just drive fast.  When I
swapped to a wheel and pedals I just couldn't match my proficiency with
the joystick.  Now, I can't saying I was trying to drive in any
obviously different way to how I used to drive using a joystick, I would
just say that my reflexes were quicker and I could react much faster to
what was going on in front of me, because all I had to concentrate on
were 'micro' adjustments with my one arm, instead of having to think of
all 4 appendages at once.

Just my take on things.

Driver induced understeer works in real life, only the driver only turns
just enough to keep the fronts just a bit past the limits. Only a small
percentage of race cars (twitchy, non-downforce cars) would benefit from
using this method. I asked about this at a driver site a while ago and
a person who drives a Clio stated that induced understeer was needed to
keep the mid-engine Clio pointed in the right direction when it was at
the limits, especially in high speed turns, where aerodynamic drag
requires a lot of throttle pressure to maintain the high speed.

Just looking around the internet I found the book "GPL: four wheel
drift" on replacmentdocs:
http://www.replacementdocs.com/download.php?view.524

This doco seems quite useful, although I've only skimmed through it so
far (well, it's 99 pages). One thing I learned so far from it about
the old GP racing is:
"Unlike modern GP races, there are no pit stops for anything but
serving penalty time for infractions of the rules. The cars carried
enough fuel to go non-stop, and the heavily-treaded tires often lasted
several races."

I was wondering why the game didn't do anything when I stopped in the
pits, but now it all makes sense.

I also found the original manual on replacementdocs which might offer
some help also - I bought the game in one of those cheap bins a number
of years ago and no manual was included.

Regards,
Mike.