rec.autos.simulators

OT - Windows XP

Drag0

OT - Windows XP

by Drag0 » Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:36:17



Your experience differs obviously.  Your an IT consultant for small
business.  I'm an IT professional for a large company.  I've also been
working with and using PC technologies since 1982.

You mention that your companies software doesn't work on ME, spent tons of
time on development,etc.   Well I don't run your software and I don't expect
every piece of software to work on ME.   However, not one application at my
company has issues with ME, even old DOS FOXPRO applications.   Not one game
I own refuses to run on it.  Even some of the DOS ones work with the boot to
DOS tweak.

You mention that it's not an option for your customers to upgrade to another
OS to run your software, that's a weak argument for so many reasons.   If
they wanted it bad enough, they'd upgrade.

System restore is not the end all, be all, for system backups.  As a
consultant I'd of had my customers purchase a tape drive to back their
systems up or give them a ghost image on CD for faster recovery.

XP Home is not faster than ME on my system, some games stutter for example.
I won't blame the OS yet though as some of my hardware drivers may not be up
to stuff.  Another example is XP resource hogging.  Look at the large number
of services running in the background that aren't needed for ***.

You mentioned that security updates aren't available for ME, that's not
true.  I've been able to get security updates for this OS for quite some
time now.

Your main beef seems to be that you've spent a lot of time trying to get
your software developed to work on ME and it hasn't panned out.  I'm sorry.

I won't get into a big debate on this, like I said IMO it's not a POS.

Tim

OT - Windows XP

by Tim » Thu, 01 Nov 2001 04:34:47

Read an article just yesterday about how few businesses expect to upgrade to
XP, especially large companies, more so because the PCs AND OS they
purchased 2 years ago are still very much productive.  Since PC sales are
down in this recessive year for the first time ever, I'd say fans of XP have
their work cut out for them.

And isn't XP supposed to be incrypted such to prevent 'illegal'
distribution?  Sounds more like a 1 billion dollar attempt at theft than
anything else.  True, the multimedia and browser enhancments are nice, and
yes, conferencing is now a click away, instead of the phone features our
businesses already have (by the way).  Gee wiz, they're some reasons to
s***the thousands of working OS's already in place.

MS is betting XP will be the next great leap since Win95, and even paid
Sting to sing a song about it. How cute :)
I'm thinkning Win95 was huge because of the leap from Windows, whereas ME,
XP were more cosmetic than anything else.

On another note, I take exception to your reference to small business
support.  Consulting is consulting. Your fooling your resume if you think
the size of the customers you work with means anything.  Oh, and I'm just
curious, since I recall the first PC I bought in '82 was an Atari 800, just
exactly what PC technologies were you 'working with' then?  I think I
remember a Radio Shack TRS80 or something like that, oh an that IBM thing
running DOS we used in college in '84 to crash the mainframes in our labs :)

Don't laugh, that Atari got me my first programming job :)

Seriously, if you consider what's going on today, and I consult on PCs as
much as the next guy, anything we used older than 3-4 years ago is landfill
now; an experience long gone by in comparison to today's technology...2.0
Ghz CPUs will be under $500 by xmas, 100Gb drives under $300, all that
memory for less that what a decent mouse costs, and my trusty Win98SE oem
for 90 bucks.

:)

Tim White
INTRAC Motorsports
www.birds-i-view.com/intrac




> >     First off, this is not a repsonse to get at you. It is not intended
to
> > be dissing you or anyone else.

> > > I've heard this twice today.  ME is NOT a POS, it's a much more stable
> OS
> > > versus 95/98 IMO.

> Your experience differs obviously.  Your an IT consultant for small
> business.  I'm an IT professional for a large company.  I've also been
> working with and using PC technologies since 1982.

> You mention that your companies software doesn't work on ME, spent tons of
> time on development,etc.   Well I don't run your software and I don't
expect
> every piece of software to work on ME.   However, not one application at
my
> company has issues with ME, even old DOS FOXPRO applications.   Not one
game
> I own refuses to run on it.  Even some of the DOS ones work with the boot
to
> DOS tweak.

> You mention that it's not an option for your customers to upgrade to
another
> OS to run your software, that's a weak argument for so many reasons.   If
> they wanted it bad enough, they'd upgrade.

> System restore is not the end all, be all, for system backups.  As a
> consultant I'd of had my customers purchase a tape drive to back their
> systems up or give them a ghost image on CD for faster recovery.

> XP Home is not faster than ME on my system, some games stutter for
example.
> I won't blame the OS yet though as some of my hardware drivers may not be
up
> to stuff.  Another example is XP resource hogging.  Look at the large
number
> of services running in the background that aren't needed for ***.

> You mentioned that security updates aren't available for ME, that's not
> true.  I've been able to get security updates for this OS for quite some
> time now.

> Your main beef seems to be that you've spent a lot of time trying to get
> your software developed to work on ME and it hasn't panned out.  I'm
sorry.

> I won't get into a big debate on this, like I said IMO it's not a POS.

Drag0

OT - Windows XP

by Drag0 » Thu, 01 Nov 2001 06:47:41


It wasn't meant as a slight, you read more into it than was there.  It was
just that a reference, where he is, where I am.
I re-read it and can see how it would appear snobby.  I was just showing I
read his post, I wasn't diss'n anyone.

I used to be a consultant.  Sorry but I some what disagree with your view.
Having major companies listed on your resume does open doors in a lot of
cases.
Experience talks though, any experience.

I know for sure I got these in the early 80's, don't remember the exact
dates.
Apple II in '82 (used), Atari 800 '83 (new).  Timex Sinclair ('83 used).   I
still have my PCjr ('84 used).  These are all PC's I believe.
Oh, had a Commodore PET too can't remember when I got that one.   I still
have my Atari's and Timex Sinclairs.

Cool, 6502 assembly and BASIC was fun.  Remember Antic magazine?  I lived
for the next issue.

I agree with your XP comments.   The have a beefed up registration process
and Media Player limits file distribution (easy don't use it).
One thing, don't expect to run XP HOME in larger offices (with domains).

MS will probably drop the price if they're not moving enough units.
I tried XP HOME this weekend, I'm moving the PRO this week.
I'm returning XP HOME ASAP.

Phillip Malphrus, Jr

OT - Windows XP

by Phillip Malphrus, Jr » Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:18:41

    This first section is not in response to you but I'm not going to
respond to everybody's thread individually. This first section will cover it
all. I see other posts in this thread that say that XP is barely different
than ME but they are soo inaccurate. I think some folks don't really know
what they are talking about. I say that based on what they are posting.
There is a HUGE difference between XP Home and ME. The XP OS is true 32 bit,
not mix and match, which is one of if not the most important reason it makes
the OS TONS more stable than 98 or ME. Read any major magazine, from PC
Magazine to PCGamer, XP Home is the best home operating system available.
PCGamer benchmarked XP vs Me. XP out of the box beats Me with all its
patches in every benchmark. In the 3dmark 2001, Quake3 Arena, and in MDK2
benchmarks that they test sytems with, it outperforms ME. PCGamer recommends
keeping 98SE, note they recommend 98SE not ME, only if older apps will not
run in the 32 bit environment. The games that don't perform well are due to
that mixed mode OS that was on the market for several years. When those apps
are optimized for 32 bit use, they will fly. XP is a resource hog?? XP is
the first home OS to ever take full advantage of more than 192 MB of RAM.
Win 98 and ME always would tailor off in performance gains after reaching
that threshold. Secondly, I see that people say that there are processes
running that wouldn't run in 98. Most of those processes running, the ones
you see in Task Manager under user names "system" and "local service", have
always been there in 98 and Me. Yep! That's right! The ones that show under
your user name are the ones you would had seen in 98 and Me's OS. Most of
the others were hidden. Do you think those OS's ran with explorer and
systray controlling the whole works?? Those programs were not in charge of
everything! Just because those processes show now does not mean they are
hogging resources. The rest of the processes that are running in that list
that were not in 98 and ME are there to provide better information to the
user about hardware issues, better system stability, and allow for a true
audit system of system messages. Now if there's an error, it doesn't get
lost forever: it is available in Event Viewer and you don't always have to
reboot to fix the problem. The print spooler can fail, for example, that in
98 or Me would require a reboot to fix. Not any more, just stop and restart
the spooler service in the Control Panel, Administrative Tools, Services
program. Plus, any of these can be disabled for *** through the same
services program and they can be disabled forever if that is what you wish.
And you don't have to guess what these things are doing based on a path and
name of the exe file like in 98 and ME's msconfig program. The Services
program gives a description of each service's function. BTW folks, the
operating system on a PC is not meant for just ***. If you truly want
that, get a console. There has never been an OS dedicated to ***, ever.
XP takes advantage of resources better than any other consumer Microsoft OS
ever, while giving the user the say in what goes on in the background. Xp's
version of Windows Explorer has the ability to burn data cd's. You can also
create, expand zip files and open and view the individual files in them
without an external program being necessary, a software firewall option,
etc. It also has many wizards for novice to do tasks that were before very
difficult, such as user accounts (formerly profiles), and internet
connection sharing, the help section is actually useful now and its
interface has been streamlined. It is also very easy to get up and running.
To quote PC Gamer's story, it is the "first version of Windows that our
grandmothers could install and use without cursing at the computer every two
seconds." These are the reasons why it is outperforming ME in benchmarks,
and is being recommended to anyone that doesn't run apps that won't run in a
32 bit environment. Even then a dual boot configuration is recommended by
PcGamer for those older apps, not returning XP. XP Home is definitely the
way to go for a home user.

    Now, on the business side, as I said before, Win ME screwed over not
only hardware producers (having to write new drivers just because of ME),
software developers(the same reason as hardware), and software resellers
(because it made the software look inferior when it was not). As far as your
response to my post, it seems to me you didnt read that post of mine
closely, the problems we have with Me has nothing to do with our software.
It's not even our software, it is the software we resale, as I said in the
post. This software company has over 25,000 resellers worldwide. This
software, furthermore, was written in early 2000, not an older application
mind you. I think you just skimmed my post. The main points of the post are
that the same software works in all OS's, including the new Windows XP,
without what had to be done to get it to keep window focus. just in Windows
ME. This is not to mention programs and development tools, some of which
were shareware products, that would not launch the same way in ME, as they
would in 95,98, 98SE, 2000 family and now even in XP. When you add in the
time to put it on at the sites, explain why it was needed in the first
place, and then add in the need to manage another OS's drivers and new bugs,
it made it a complete waste. The other main point that you did not get out
of my post, is that after November, those updates to ME will stop, unless it
is a major issue, and when they buy a new Operating System, most must buy XP
Professional. Please re-read that section. And no, not all small companies
can afford or justify spending $200 to upgrade only a year later. Not every
company has an unlimited budget. In smaller businesses, the PC's are not the
most impotant thing money-wise in their budget. There is a weaker economy
now than in the past. That's reality. If they are on a domain, they are
screwed as well now because XP Home will not join a domain. Are they telling
people of that limitation? Nope. You either have to dig around microsoft.com
or the internet, or you have to go to a Microsoft Technet session. And they
buy it dumbly and expect it to work? Yes, smaller family owned companies
make those decisions on their own and only get your help after something
doesn't work. That is also reality. Now, they will have no choice whatsoever
in the matter. They must buy XP Professional. Why must they? Because Win98
and ME will no longer be available, they have to have some kind of OS and
you can't buy an upgrade to XP Professional on a new PC. Since most local
stores and chains only come preinstalled with the home versions of the
software, they must buy it from someone that can put XP Professional on it.
No more going out to the local store to buy a computer. Plain and simple,
small businesses get screwed.

I'm very happy for you that you had no problems with ME and it actually
worked better than 98SE. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. If it
ain't broke, then don't fix it. That just never happened it any situation we
have faced or seen comments on, from home users to workgroup LANs to domain
controlled environments, and to us, that made Windows Me a waste. I'm not
going to debate this further either. People can take what I've said in these
posts and get what they want out of it. If they don't agree, then fine. That
is their right.

Regards, Phillip


<snip> for space

Marian Webe

OT - Windows XP

by Marian Webe » Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:22:13

Heck I'm still on Win 95!!!  Thats what came on my system and i never saw
any reason to change.  Everything (almost) works fine.  DX8 screwed up my
system but I went back to DX7 and its fine.  Im going with the same "if it
aint broke dont fix it" adage.  Cause hey...its true.

Chris


I haven't even got that far! I'm still on 98 1st ed. I've got a 98SE CD,
ready to install when the first edition throws a shoe, but it's working
fine, and I'm a definate believer in the "if it aint broke, don't fix it"
adage.

R .

Txl

OT - Windows XP

by Txl » Thu, 01 Nov 2001 20:18:32

Well at least atari was more like a mac, ROM OS and so on.....
Drag0

OT - Windows XP

by Drag0 » Fri, 02 Nov 2001 05:07:39

Well MS won't be fixin' it after Dec. 31st 2001.   Might want to keep your eye out for a 98Se copy
cheap.
Drag0

OT - Windows XP

by Drag0 » Fri, 02 Nov 2001 05:25:19



I believe I read your posts OK.
First it's ... "it caused Windows versions of OUR accounting software we resale to lose focus"
Now its ... "It's not even our software, it is the software we resale, as I said in the post."

Maybe you should have written it as versions of THE accounting software ...

".. after November, those updates to ME will stop, unless it
is a major issue, and when they buy a new Operating System, most must buy XP
Professional."

Where did you get this information?   Please share.
As far as I'm know, ME is not being dropped in November, unlike 95 in December.

You're also not forced to buy an operating system on your PC, at least in my experience.  What if
you wanted LINUX?
Your certainly not forced to buy XP Pro, 2000's still around.

"No more going out to the local store to buy a computer. Plain and simple,
small businesses get screwed."

So you're saying the local store can't install XP Pro?   Man, I wouldn't want to buy from them if
they couldn't, XP is so easy to install.

Drag0

OT - Windows XP

by Drag0 » Fri, 02 Nov 2001 05:30:14

Yes they were fun in their day.   Atari was my fav.
Galley_SimRace

OT - Windows XP

by Galley_SimRace » Fri, 02 Nov 2001 05:48:58



The difference between Me and XP is huge!
--
"Trying is the first step towards failure"
Homer Simpson

Phillip Malphrus, Jr

OT - Windows XP

by Phillip Malphrus, Jr » Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:24:57

December.

Microsoft Technet session in early October.

my experience.  What if

When you go to a store and buy a PC you are. There's not a major PC supplier
out there that does not bundle the OS in the deal. Companies like Gateway,
Dell, Compaq, HP. That's who the average small businesses buy from. They
come bundled with an OS, dont they? You pay for it. Now what happens when
you find out your OS wont connect to the domain??? You are screwed! You cant
return it, you must then buy a full version of XP Professional. You cannot
upgrade from XP Home. You must format the Pc, and do a complete reinstall, a
complete waste of time and money for them. Or, they have to pay someone to
come in and do it  Either way, you get bent over. This is the way you are
forced to do so. Linux is not a viable solution for any business except for
one that has a technically savvy user group. And btw, 2000 Prof is the same
price. Why the heck would you even want 2000 Prof when XP Prof is available?

want to buy from them if

Like I said above.

Drag0

OT - Windows XP

by Drag0 » Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:45:04



OK, I'll qualify this with our rep..  Till then it's hear-say!  :-)

No you're not.   I've never been forced to buy an OS with ANY Modern PC I've bought.   I like home
built.   Now work likes Compaq/Toshiba, that's another story.

Certainly this is a different story.

You're making a big assumption, the assumption that it'll come with XP He only.
The last laptop I bought, you had a choice at boot up.  You picked either Windows 98 or Windows 2000
and the system installed it.  No technicians involved.   I picked 2000 of course.  I suspect you'll
get similar options with XP, although you'll probably pay more for the ones that allow to to select
XP Pro.

See above.

LINUX may soon be.  www.lindows.com for example.   Why the heck, well that's my answer "why the
heck".  Maybe you like the GUI, maybe you have an obscure piece of hardware that only works on 2000
as it was custom built for it.   Maybe your company hasn't OK'ed XP as the 'corporate standard', a
whole bunch of reasons.  Not saying I'd pick that option give the choice between it and XP, others
might though.

That's not my experience.  Most stores I frequent have the skills to install XP Pro if asked.  I can
see maybe at a chain store, like Costco or something where they might not.  For my personal
shopping, I like the small corners in the wall kinda stores, smaller stores, stores with people that
I can get to know on a first name basis.

Compaq and others will also build systems to your wishes too, costs a bit more though.  You can send
them a Ghost image and they arrive exactly the way you want, even with your applications all
preinstalled.

Geoff Water

OT - Windows XP

by Geoff Water » Mon, 05 Nov 2001 05:47:47

Re: Dual boot upgrade - if I buy the Win XP Home upgrade box to upgrade from Win
ME, is dual boot an option or do I need to install some kind of partition
manager first?

I'm afraid my DSL setup and home network (SyGate) won't work under XP.

Thanks

STP

OT - Windows XP

by STP » Tue, 06 Nov 2001 18:48:35


I'm not dual booting with XP, but I did read some info on it yesterday, if
you are going to dual boot then install WinME first and just install XP to a
seperate partion or harddrive afterwards and it will take care of the rest.
You can only use the XP boot manager for Win9X/NT/2000 and not for OS like
Linux/BeoS etc. You can install to the same partition, but you increase your
chance of problems greatly so just make another partion, XP will come up
with a partiton manager allowing you to create/destroy partions and format
in FAT, FAT32 or NTFS.

XP should support your DSL, and it comes with it's own networking
capabilites anyway.

Olav K. Malm

OT - Windows XP

by Olav K. Malm » Tue, 06 Nov 2001 18:55:03




> > Re: Dual boot upgrade - if I buy the Win XP Home upgrade box to upgrade
> from Win
> > ME, is dual boot an option or do I need to install some kind of partition
> > manager first?

> I'm not dual booting with XP, but I did read some info on it yesterday, if
> you are going to dual boot then install WinME first and just install XP to a
> seperate partion or harddrive afterwards and it will take care of the rest.
> You can only use the XP boot manager for Win9X/NT/2000 and not for OS like
> Linux/BeoS etc.

I don't know how the boot manager for XP works, but here at work I
have a multiboot system with WinME, Win2000 and Red Hat Linux 7.1 and
everything works from the Win2000 boot manager. You just have do some
funny lilo tinkering, which is fun :)

--
Olav K. Malmin
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