rec.autos.simulators

by **Kyle Steve** » Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:00:00

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:48:15 -0500, "Kasparov"

>So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough
>idea? weeks...months...

>The longer it takes the more I feel screwed over as a consumer for having to
>wait so long AFTER I have purchased a game to get the what should have been
>a completed version from the day it went on sale?

What a dork...

So tell me, what's keeping you from returning it? If you're so upset,
go get your refund and go back to playing Donkey Kong...

There may be some issues with CPR, but you're way out of line. Your
only saving grace is that this is the place to vent, whether we like
it or not. Too bad I read your post and replied.

Kyle

by **Randy Magrud** » Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:00:00

Dean,

Stick around. The good outweigh the bad. Just keep this guy off your
Christmas list and be nice to the rest of us patient types :)

While you're at it, a couple of other notes:

1. Can you do anything to increase the contrast between the track
color and the cars? I have never had as difficult a time seeing cars
around me as I do in CPR. If it means making the graphics a little
more cartoony in terms of the brightness, so be it -- we don't have
real-life resolution, and being able to see cars in front and behind
you is VERY important. The track is just so dark and the cars are so
small you're on top of them before you know they are there.

2. Just WHAT is going on with the Riva 128 board? I know that you
guys have said this thing hs driver problems, but it runs other games
just fine in Direct3D, including Flight Simulator 98 and Ubi Soft's F1
sim. You guys are the only one that exposes this horrendous flaw in
the driver. What gives there? Do you know? And if you DO know, could
you either work around it in the patch or call up STB and tell them to
get it in gear! :)

Cheers,

Randy

by **Randy Magrud** » Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:00:00

>How the hell am I out of line???? This sim is not finished....IT WAS PLAINLY
>STATED BY THE PROGRAMMING TEAM...after it was released I might add!!!! The
>reason why I don't take it back is because I believe there is great
>potential with this sim like I stated in the original post...uh you must
>have missed that sentence.

If you're this angry, take it back for a refund and re-purchase it
after everyone here has said how wonderful the patch is. Slamming the
people at Microsoft is NOT going to get you what you want. You are so
angry because they rushed the product out, and now you are screaming
for them to rush the patch! What if they rush the patch and it breaks
more than it fixes?! What are you going to scream then? That they
should have taken the time to get it right? Regardless of whether you
are right or wrong about the timing of the release and the status of
the product, its HISTORY now. No one at Microsoft or TR can turn back
the clock and do things differently. They are doing the ONLY thing
they can do, which is hang out here and listen to what we say (and
respond) and have the programmers at TR work as quickly as possible at
addressing our concerns. Its amazing how people like you simply can
NOT be satisfied. You will scream and *** and moan about how long
it takes for something to come out, and then when the developer rushes
it out to satisfy demand, the next thing you see is people like you
screaming about how it was shipped unfinished, you want a patch to fix
everything, and you want it *NOW*!

I repeat. Take it back. Life is too short for you to be giving
yourself fits over it. I'm sure it will continue to be on sale AFTER
its patched. In the meantime, you'll have your money back and
hopefully we won't have to listen to any more of your abusive posts.

I'm amazed you haven't had a nervous breakdown. What software has
been released as a 1.0 that satisfied you in this area?

Good. Put on some soft music and relax.

Music is your line of work and the realities of your industry are
different than the realities of the software industry. For you to try
to say that everything should be run the way the music industry is, is
complete folly. They are apples and oranges.

Let me try again -- take it back if you are unhappy with it. If
Microsoft returns your money then your complaint is moot. My guess is
you'd rather hold onto it so you can continue to rant and rave here.

Oh please. No game is EVER "finished". NASCAR 1 went through the
original 1.0 and a couple of updates. Grand Prix 2 sorely needed an
update and never got one. IndyCar 2 went through several revisions.
Go onto any sports game site and check out the patches, roster
updates, AI fixes, multiplayer fixes, etc....I hope you're as zealous
in screaming at everyone else as you are Microsoft, or do you simply
apply different standards to them.

RETURN THE GAME. GET YOUR MONEY BACK AND LAUGH. Sheesh.

Yeah, no one else in rec.autos.simulators loves auto racing and is
passionate about it. Only you, pal.

Randy

by **Kasparo** » Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:00:00

First of all I am not angry...just stating my opinions...I repeat
opinions. But I am growing tired of the computer game industry releasing
games in this manner. No one seems to be acknowledging that I think the game
has great potential. However, you are right about nothing changing just
because of my ranting and raving....I agree there But man I am not having a
fit over this trust me.

I never said I wanted the patch to be rushed out. I said if it is not
released before Christmas I will be disappointed....I believe there is a
difference. No where did I say that I want them to release the patch before
it is done...You are not the first one to misunderstand that. Many games
have been released at 1.0 that I was happy with. Hell some games were great
even in the beta stage. GP2, Nascar 1 and 2, and ICR 2 may have been
updated after the releases but hell at least the game was finished for
Christ sake when it came out and the AI was well..intelligent. Furthermore
I never once ***ed about when this game was going to be released. If
anything I was quite surprised when it was released. About a week or two
ahead of time....I am patient when it comes to waiting for a game to be
released because I believe that games should not be released until they are
done. Well this is a trend that is on its way out and that is why I am
disappointed.

I am going to keep the game and I am going to wait for this patch because I
believe in this sim. If the patch does its job then I will be first to
congratulate the CPR team and apologize for my complaints....if this patch
is a big let down, then I am sure I will not be the only one screaming at
that point in time.

I remember listening to an realaudio interview with the CART team on the
Operation 3dfx website. They talked about this game like it was the the
second coming of Christ in the autosim world. They bragged about the AI and
the graphics just to name a few...they gave me confidence that I was going
to be purchasing a great piece of work. Well this just did not happen like
the interview lead you to believe.

Kas

PS: Thanks for you constructive criticism I do appreciate it....seriously.
You were right about a few things...and perhaps over critical with others
but so I am about this sim. :)

I await the patch....

by **Doug Bur** » Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:00:00

> Kasparov - where did this flame suddenly come from?

> "... so long AFTER I have purchased a game ..." - the game was released just
> 2 WEEKS AGO!!!

> We have always said the patch is slated for a December release - it's only
> Dec 1st today.

> TRi are making a build for us this week that, if it passes our acceptance
> test, will go
> out to beta testers soon afterwards.

> If you no longer want to test this then that's fine - we'll remove your
> name. Email me directly
> - you know my address - and I'll remove you from the list.

> And if you want to return the game for a refund that is your free choice.

> You have been kept in the loop all the way through since the release.

> If you think this is a "cheap PR move" after all the efforts we have been
> making to support
> this game here on ras then so be it. Nothing I can do will convince you.

> I wonder why the other publishers don't come here any more ... hmmm ...

> >So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough
> >idea? weeks...months...

[snip -- *** deleted]

Dean,

I for one am also a little disappointed w/CART in its current
incarnation, mostly with Frame Rate and AI. I'm awaiting the GLIDE
patch personally (Monster 3d on board) ... but I do recognize that you
folks have gone the extra mile to be here and support this title, so I
haven't given up on it yet ... Here's hoping that we are all "patched
up" real soon !

Doug

by **George Sandma** » Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:00:00

>Kasparov,
>Why don't you get in a REAL car and take your shitty AI in that tiny brain
>of yours and drive OVER some of your fellow cry babies on this newsgroup.
>If you don't like the sim, try this---------get a girlfriend.
> The sim is being enjoyed by many, many people. The responses and actions
>by Microsoft and TRI have been quick and professional. I was a Gold winner
>and have had the game for a month now and can't remember when I've been as
>impressed by a company's dilligence in it's support of it's product. If I
>were them, I would of abandoned this newsgroup long ago. Fortunately, there
>have been many helpful postings, but the majority, and yours, have been a
>joke.
>Who the hell are you to rant on at people and make demands. If you don't
>like it, take it back. Nobody guaranteed you would. That's life.
> Dave

>> So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough
>> idea? weeks...months...

I agree with you Dave 100%. I will gladly wait for a patch, and I am having
the Time of my life driving CART right now and I know it will only get
better. Keep up the good work CART Team!!

The Sandman

by **John Walla** » Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:00:00

>Dean did mention they were hoping to get the first cut of the patch
>fromTRI this week.

I would say I was looking forward to it, but unless it patches the
demo (which I doubt) then I'm afraid it's going to be useless to me
since the full game isn't released over here. This is one game I never
ordered from the US, since I simply wasn't impressed by many aspects
of it (I've since played a friend's copy which he ordered from the US
and it confirmed my impression).

Still, I do hope that the patch is released soon and addresses the
problems, most specifically the AI. Everything else I could probably
live with, but the AI makes it totally unplayable IMO. I'd like faster
frame-rate, rain tyres fixed, rain grip fixed, yadda, yadda, yadda,
but the AI is the killer. I'd guess it's also probably the most
difficult thing to patch also.

Yes, I'd agree with that, and that was how I received the offer from
MS when they asked me. What did spark a little flame was when I
exchanged a few e-mails with several other people who had been putting
forward negative aspects of CPR on the newsgroup, and found they too
had received the same offer. What really made me wonder was when Kas
said that he'd never actually received any beta copy, despite the
offer and acceptance - that's what made me wonder if it was a damage
limitation exercise more than anything else. In any case, why not?
I've done that sort of thing myself a number of times in my own job to
good effect. I don't know if it was genuine or not, since I was unable
to accept the offer.

Hah! So if the patch doesn't work we can all have a go at you then? :)
Seriously, if you're on the team I know the case will be well made.
Give us a good 'un.

My feelings also, the AI issues were the main (the only?) thing which
rendered the game unplayable. Other things were bad but could be lived
with, but AI is the squeaky wheel.

Cheers!
John

Ps - I didn't know you lived in Canada. It must be DAMN cold up there
at this time of year. How bad is it? We've got -8 here in Scotland,
and I'm already moaning about having to scrape my car twice a day to
get to work and back. Nice to know that sim-racing has practical
applications in the real world though - I got totally sideway on an
ice patch this morning on the way to work, caught and correct the car
and continued on my way before I even really realised what was going
on! :) I still couldn't describe exactly what I pressed or turned,
but it worked. All those sideways moments through Eau Rouge must have
done me some good! The frame-rate was pretty excellent as well,
although the AI on the highway going to work is AWFUL :)

by **CART Te** » Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:00:00

Gamma correction for cars and tracks (independently) is in the patch.

Riva 128 flickering was fixed with a driver update (Diamond?). The problem
lies there - the other Riva 128 OEMs need to do the same - we cannot hack at
their drivers.

>>I wonder why the other publishers don't come here any more ... hmmm ...

>Dean,

>Stick around. The good outweigh the bad. Just keep this guy off your
>Christmas list and be nice to the rest of us patient types :)

>While you're at it, a couple of other notes:

>1. Can you do anything to increase the contrast between the track
>color and the cars? I have never had as difficult a time seeing cars
>around me as I do in CPR. If it means making the graphics a little
>more cartoony in terms of the brightness, so be it -- we don't have
>real-life resolution, and being able to see cars in front and behind
>you is VERY important. The track is just so dark and the cars are so
>small you're on top of them before you know they are there.

>2. Just WHAT is going on with the Riva 128 board? I know that you
>guys have said this thing hs driver problems, but it runs other games
>just fine in Direct3D, including Flight Simulator 98 and Ubi Soft's F1
>sim. You guys are the only one that exposes this horrendous flaw in
>the driver. What gives there? Do you know? And if you DO know, could
>you either work around it in the patch or call up STB and tell them to
>get it in gear! :)

>Cheers,

>Randy

by Jo » Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:00:00

>Ps - I didn't know you lived in Canada. It must be DAMN cold up there
>at this time of year. How bad is it?

Fortunately I do not know. ;-)

I've lived on the west coast (Vancouver Island) for the last eight
years, the one part of Canada that has semi-civilized winters. The
last couple days have been sunny and 5-10 degrees (Celcius), dropping
down to near zero at night. But that's about as cold as it normally
gets here. We're much more likely to get rain than snow in the winter
here. We did get a doozy of a snowstorm last year, but that's a
once-in-fifty years event.

Snow and winter has set in on the rest of the country (I've seen
pictures on the news) and it does get very cold - probably ranges from
zero to -20 on average, though it can easily drop down to the -30 to
-40 range for disturbingly long stretches. Makes me shiver just to
think about it!

Joe

by **Paul Jenkin** » Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:00:00

Geez, Kas, take it easy! So CPR doesn't work right on your computer. These
things are bound to happen! Hey, it doesn't work worth a damn on my computer
either, but you don't see me flying off the handle. Okay, so MS has released a
beta test into production. This is very much in keeping with their marketing
department, which has done this on SEVERAL occasions (FS5.0, FS98, Win95, WinNT,
shall I go on?). At least MS is getting the patch out in a matter of weeks,
instead of former attempts (it took MS fully 7 months to patch FS5.0). Like I
said though, if you need someone to blame, write a letter to MS's marketing
department. They're the ones pushing this thing out the door half-baked! No
programmer in his right mind would send a piece of software with their name all
over it out in the state CPR is in! Break out the old copy of Diablo and wait a
week until the patch comes out.

> Listen you idiot, I like to see the game for my opinion not other people's.
> There have been many times when a bunch of idiots ragged on a game that I
> felt was really good so I bought it see for myself. I feel I have a right
> complain since I spent close to 60$ for this game which was only half
> finished!!!!!!! This is bullshit and how can you argue with that....man you
> are a sorry SOB. By the way, is this how games are supposed to marketed???
> People are supposed to wait until the game reaches the 15$ to purchase it so
> they feel they got their money's worth? I don't think so.

> Kas

> >: So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough
> >: idea? weeks...months...
> >:
> >: Shame on MS and TRI for releasing this game with so many problems and
> >: unfinished area.

> >Wow. Obviously you have a right to complian, but man, where have you
> >been? If you would have even read one post in this group about how bad
> >CPR was you would have saved your money.

> >You remind me of the people that don't watch a race, then read the net and
> >get pissed because somebody didn't use a "spoiler" in the message and they
> >read the results of that same race before they watch it.

> >I'm still waiting for CPR to hit the bargain bin before I fork over my
> >$15.
> >--
> >-------------------------------------

by **Kasparo** » Thu, 04 Dec 1997 04:00:00

I would have to say that you are right. I definitely lost my head over this
thread. I never intended to start a flame war...hell I didn't really
realize my original post was so fired up....I typed it and went to bed. My
real whole point of the post was to find out when the patch was expected to
be released....I got carried away. Well everyone makes mistakes...I still
am disappointed about the current state of the sim but I will control myself
better in the future...I kind of surprised myself actually. :)

As

>Geez, Kas, take it easy! So CPR doesn't work right on your computer.
These
>things are bound to happen! Hey, it doesn't work worth a damn on my
computer
>either, but you don't see me flying off the handle. Okay, so MS has
released a
>beta test into production. This is very much in keeping with their
marketing
>department, which has done this on SEVERAL occasions (FS5.0, FS98, Win95,
WinNT,
>shall I go on?). At least MS is getting the patch out in a matter of
weeks,
>instead of former attempts (it took MS fully 7 months to patch FS5.0).
Like I
>said though, if you need someone to blame, write a letter to MS's marketing
>department. They're the ones pushing this thing out the door half-baked!
No
>programmer in his right mind would send a piece of software with their name
all
>over it out in the state CPR is in! Break out the old copy of Diablo and
wait a
>week until the patch comes out.

>> Listen you idiot, I like to see the game for my opinion not other
people's.
>> There have been many times when a bunch of idiots ragged on a game that I
>> felt was really good so I bought it see for myself. I feel I have a
right
>> complain since I spent close to 60$ for this game which was only half
>> finished!!!!!!! This is bullshit and how can you argue with that....man
you
>> are a sorry SOB. By the way, is this how games are supposed to
marketed???
>> People are supposed to wait until the game reaches the 15$ to purchase it
so
>> they feel they got their money's worth? I don't think so.

>> Kas

>> >: So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a
rough
>> >: idea? weeks...months...
>> >:
>> >: Shame on MS and TRI for releasing this game with so many problems and
>> >: unfinished area.

>> >Wow. Obviously you have a right to complian, but man, where have you
>> >been? If you would have even read one post in this group about how bad
>> >CPR was you would have saved your money.

>> >You remind me of the people that don't watch a race, then read the net
and
>> >get pissed because somebody didn't use a "spoiler" in the message and
they
>> >read the results of that same race before they watch it.

>> >I'm still waiting for CPR to hit the bargain bin before I fork over my
>> >$15.
>> >--
>> >-------------------------------------

by **XRaceTr** » Fri, 05 Dec 1997 04:00:00

Great news!

Yes - I can verify that Diamond's current Viper 330 drivers fixed
the flicker... (I can only verify this in the demo, but I do know it's
fixed in both the AGP version I have at work and the PCI version
I have at home...)

Oh come on... if you were a real CART fan, you'd say this in proper
terms: "we cannot pull a Zanardi."

- Mike.

====================================================
Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================

by **Ronald Stoeh** » Fri, 05 Dec 1997 04:00:00

snip
> No-one can argue that there are some problems with CPR, but since you
> are in business for yourself you have to realise that Microsoft cannot
> win in this situation. They are in this to make money, we agree on
> that? They have a product which they recognise has problems, and it's
> coming up to Christmas. Missing the Christmas buying season is
> commercial suicide, so they HAVE to release it. If they wait until
> after Christmas they also risk bumping into Grand Prix Legends or the
> fabled Grand Prix 3 - not healthy for sales. Yes, it should have been
> done right, but having recognised that there are problems really there
> was nothing else to do. The product being out there, it is then up to
> us if we want to buy it.

That's the problem! You defend a software company releasing a half-baked
product because of commercial requirements!? Any car producer doing this
with a new model will get slaughtered, "Hey, watch that elk!!!!" ;^)

l8er
ronny

--
|\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

by **Paul Sander** » Fri, 05 Dec 1997 04:00:00

Long live El Nino (sp???)...... :-)

It's actually sunny in Seattle in December!?!?!

-Paul

>>Ps - I didn't know you lived in Canada. It must be DAMN cold up there
>>at this time of year. How bad is it?

>Fortunately I do not know. ;-)

>I've lived on the west coast (Vancouver Island) for the last eight
>years, the one part of Canada that has semi-civilized winters. The
>last couple days have been sunny and 5-10 degrees (Celcius), dropping
>down to near zero at night. But that's about as cold as it normally
>gets here. We're much more likely to get rain than snow in the winter
>here. We did get a doozy of a snowstorm last year, but that's a
>once-in-fifty years event.

>Snow and winter has set in on the rest of the country (I've seen
>pictures on the news) and it does get very cold - probably ranges from
>zero to -20 on average, though it can easily drop down to the -30 to
>-40 range for disturbingly long stretches. Makes me shiver just to
>think about it!

>Joe

by **Paul Sander** » Fri, 05 Dec 1997 04:00:00

>> we cannot hack at their drivers.

>Oh come on... if you were a real CART fan, you'd say this in proper
>terms: "we cannot pull a Zanardi."

>- Mike.

LOL

rec.autos.simulators

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!