rec.autos.simulators

A monstrous, thought provoking "sim vs arcade" post

Le Professeu

A monstrous, thought provoking "sim vs arcade" post

by Le Professeu » Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Thanks!

(another one who made it through the post <G>)

Oh, I'm not so sure that our points of view are so far apart...

This margin of tolerance exists indeed, and as I pointed out it can be
significantly different from person to person.

Those who have some experience driving real cars on the limit could be
considered unlucky here! Because their margin of tolerance is so small that it
sometimes keeps them from appreciating how nicely a sim simulates all the OTHER,
more significant, aspects of racing.

Personally, I totally enjoy the GP2 physics. I find it a model that is
sufficiently challenging and the only things that really bother me a bit are
canned spins and the absence of total tumble. And why? Because they are both
also visual aspects. Through watching hundreds of hours of F1 coverage, we know
that it's not how it should be. But do these omissions seriously impact the
racing experience? No, they just impact our identification with the real thing.
If spinning or tumbling would ususally happen once a lap, the omission would
have a higher impact though   :-)

I'm sure they will strive for even more accurate physics. And they have my
blessing, because physics that are even CLOSER to reality will (usually) not
make the sim _worse_.  :-)

But... From my writings by now, you will have learned that the "Grand Prix"
series by Geoff Crammond is my idea of the right approach. I really seem to be
on the same wavelength as he is...

I'll try to give an example like it could happen in reality. Let's say that
Crammond has the opportunity to create an absolutely perfect tire-model (perfect
temp/pressure/grip etc. model). Then during playtesting he discovers that he
does not seem to be able to create an appropriate feedback that adequately
informs the player (ALL of them, keyb/joy/wheel!)of what the tires are doing. I
bet he would rather "dumb down" the tiremodel than stubbornly holding to King
Realism. Because if he would hold on to it, he would sacrifice a chunk of Racing
Experience for an aspect that doesn't matter much anyway. See? Or if he would
have the choice between an absolutely perfect tire model and full tumble, he
would choose full tumble.

Another example is the fact that GC still assigns great importance to keyboard
control. The real self declared "purists" would drop it immediately. But not
Crammond, because he looks right through the inessentials. What matters is not
that you're holding a wheel, but that your control method gives you a sufficient
amount of control and is challenging. Challenging where it MATTERS. The digital
nature of keyboard means that, from a practical point of view, you have to
compensate. The trick is not to over-compensate. Because then you're missing the
point and could just as well leave keyboard out.  I'm still amazed at how
brilliantly GC solved this problem. How it feels absolutely SPOT ON. Don't
believe that the "ideal line" helps save your ass.  :-)   Yes, it makes
controlling the car easy, almost automatic, at moderate speeds. But so is
driving a real car at moderate speeds, isn't it? When you drive on the limit
(and that's what F1 drivers do all the time), you WILL leave the track if you
turn in 0.25s late, or if you go 10kmph too fast or if you choose a slightly
imperfect line. Or you save the car but get punished by loosing 0.5s. You also
immediately sense the loss of rythm through nearby corners. I don't know, but
all this sounds pretty close to the real racing experience?

I'll stop now because it could get out of hand again <G>

Le Prof
 "There are no failed experiments, only more data."   --Thomas Edison

David Ewin

A monstrous, thought provoking "sim vs arcade" post

by David Ewin » Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:00:00


> I could give you my bank account number, but then I would reveal my identity.
> Since I'm chicken, I can't do that.   ;-)

Hmmm .... you call yourself "Le Professeur" and you admit that you're chicken
... are you the infamous "Le Chicken" ???!!!???

Dave Ewing

--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing

*****************************************************

jbo..

A monstrous, thought provoking "sim vs arcade" post

by jbo.. » Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:00:00

An excellent follow-up to an excellent original post, Prof -- thanks for
sharing your well-thought-out musings with us!

Along the lines of your observations regarding Crammond's GP series, I
find that the latest of the NFS games -- NFSPU, that is -- is one that
hits MY personal "sweet spot" in terms of overall feel.  GPL and Viper
Racing tickle me in all the right ways, but when it comes to simulating
what it's like to drive a "real" everyday car, NFSPU seems to have ALL
the sensations and responses just right -- I don't know that I would
change much even if I could about the game.  As for my allegation about
NFSPU simulating "real" everyday cars, it is true that many of the newer
Porsches qualify as "supercars," but the older Porsches are/were fairly
docile in comparison (the 914s and 944s are pretty tame compared to a
Viper, for instance).

GPL and Viper Racing (and DTR, for that matter) are the games that I
personally turn to when I want to simulate some *** racing, but
taking a 944 through an orange cone slalom course in NFSPU ranks right
up there for me in terms of actual driving experience.

And THAT is what you're addressing in your "sim vs. arcade" treatise,
and I think YOU are on the money.

Remember, the ONLY racing simulator that gets it all 100% right is
called a "driving school."  <G>

Which makes me wonder just how well the upcoming Skip Barber title will
stack up against the REAL Skip Barber school experience.  Hopefully they
will get it as "right" as GPL, Viper Racing, DTR, GP, and NFSPU.

-- JB




<LIBERAL SNIP>

> But... From my writings by now, you will have learned that the "Grand
Prix"
> series by Geoff Crammond is my idea of the right approach. I really
seem to be
> on the same wavelength as he is...

> I'll try to give an example like it could happen in reality. Let's say
that
> Crammond has the opportunity to create an absolutely perfect
tire-model (perfect
> temp/pressure/grip etc. model). Then during playtesting he discovers
that he
> does not seem to be able to create an appropriate feedback that
adequately
> informs the player (ALL of them, keyb/joy/wheel!)of what the tires are
doing. I
> bet he would rather "dumb down" the tiremodel than stubbornly holding
to King
> Realism. Because if he would hold on to it, he would sacrifice a chunk
of Racing
> Experience for an aspect that doesn't matter much anyway. See? Or if
he would
> have the choice between an absolutely perfect tire model and full
tumble, he
> would choose full tumble.

> Another example is the fact that GC still assigns great importance to
keyboard
> control. The real self declared "purists" would drop it immediately.
But not
> Crammond, because he looks right through the inessentials. What
matters is not
> that you're holding a wheel, but that your control method gives you a
sufficient
> amount of control and is challenging. Challenging where it MATTERS.
The digital
> nature of keyboard means that, from a practical point of view, you
have to
> compensate. The trick is not to over-compensate. Because then you're
missing the
> point and could just as well leave keyboard out. I'm still amazed at
how
> brilliantly GC solved this problem. How it feels absolutely SPOT ON.
Don't
> believe that the "ideal line" helps save your ass. :-) Yes, it makes
> controlling the car easy, almost automatic, at moderate speeds. But so
is
> driving a real car at moderate speeds, isn't it? When you drive on the
limit
> (and that's what F1 drivers do all the time), you WILL leave the track
if you
> turn in 0.25s late, or if you go 10kmph too fast or if you choose a
slightly
> imperfect line. Or you save the car but get punished by loosing 0.5s.
You also
> immediately sense the loss of rythm through nearby corners. I don't
know, but
> all this sounds pretty close to the real racing experience?

> I'll stop now because it could get out of hand again <G>

> Le Prof
> "There are no failed experiments, only more data." --Thomas Edison

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Chris Bloo

A monstrous, thought provoking "sim vs arcade" post

by Chris Bloo » Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:00:00



>So, for me:

>GP2, therefore, is still a decent F1 sim in my books.  F1RS and
MGPRS2 are
>not.
>RC2000 is a decent rally sim.  Sega isn't.
>GPL is a superb classic F1 sim.  er.... SOS isn't
>N3 is a decent Nascar sim.  Nascar Revolution isn't.

My feelings precisely, I feel that to get a result in any of
those sims you commend (I havn't tried the rally ones though)
you have to work for it.  This maybe applies more to GPL, in any
race you are going to have more than one moment where the car
slides and your heart skips a beat as you battle to catch it.
It is also the only sim where I will literally hold my breath
while taking the two lesmos or going over flag platz (is that
correct?).

I found that in F1 2000 I was either going way faster or way
slower than the AI (depending on which part of the circuit).
With GPL and even GP2 you can spend many laps closing on an AI
opponent and as in real life that is the easy part, trying to
find a way past can very often end in tears.

I also agree with all the points made below.

Chris

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Richard Walke

A monstrous, thought provoking "sim vs arcade" post

by Richard Walke » Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:00:00

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:17:26 +0200, Le Professeur

Hehe.

Good post. Thought provoking and no resorting to insults! Are you sure
you've posted this in the right location? <g>

I'm not going to attempt to respond point for point. What's the point?
(excuse the pun). Rather, I'm going to put forward why I take the
"***" approach and why it is what gives me the enjoyment.

First off, I do not want to pretend that I am a Schumacher, Earnhardt or
whoever. I haven't that degree of skill and would get no satisfaction from
pretending that I do have. What I am though is a student of auto racing. I
enjoy the technicalities. I enjoy reading about real racers experiences. I
enjoy watching racing (all racing, all time periods) and understanding what
I'm seeing. So largely what I am looking for in a racing sim is the chance
to try out what I see the real racers do in as close a fashion as is
possible within the confines of a simulation. This is something that you
didn't really include in your list, btw.

The problem with this approach though is that once you have experienced
something it is very difficult to go back to something lessor. A phrase
often used in sim racing is "suspension of disbelief". This is a relative,
not absolute, term. It also varies by individual. So whilst in 1986 I was
more than happy to be racing with a keyboard against primitive AI in
"Revs", I wouldn't be able to stand such a thing now - it would seem so far
removed from what I know can be done as to appear "arcade" even though it
was the height of simulation at the time.

So if a new sim doesn't offer anything new in terms of either car physics
or online racing I really have little interest in it. I have a pretty good
idea of how high performance cars react and the strategy & tactics required
to do well in races. No amount of hype or eye candy will persuade me
otherwise.

To sum it up, people like me aren't trying to simulate being a top class
racing driver, we're trying to simulate being a racing driver. We're aware
of our limitations and don't want the software to make up for them. If
we're ***then we're ***- and we're happy to admit it <g>. I would much
rather be a deserved back marker in Formula Ford than an artificial F1
Champion.

The above is in no way a put down of those who do want to simulate being
Schumacher. When I play golf sims I want to think that I am a Nicklaus,
Norman or Woods after all!

Different strokes for different folks.....

Cheers,
Richard

Chris Bloo

A monstrous, thought provoking "sim vs arcade" post

by Chris Bloo » Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:00:00




>> I could give you my bank account number, but then I would
reveal my identity.
>> Since I'm chicken, I can't do that.   ;-)

>Hmmm .... you call yourself "Le Professeur" and you admit that
you're chicken
>.... are you the infamous "Le Chicken" ???!!!???

>Dave Ewing

Funny you should mention that Dave.  Last night I was dredging
through the Deja archive partly because of the Barton vs.
Ymenard debate.  I used to lurk alot in this NG in '97 but
rarely posted as RAS was (as today) very pro Papy and I was just
GP2 at the time.

Well what I found brought back some memories and there was a
rumour at that time that Le Chicken was Ymenard.

In actual fact our brave and fearless leader has been rather
quiet recently, enough time for twenty pages??

Chris

:)

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Le Professeu

A monstrous, thought provoking "sim vs arcade" post

by Le Professeu » Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:00:00



>> Yes, I admit that I spent some time deciding whether I was going to use my
>> (kn)own name or not. I admit that I am chicken and that I decided not to.

>Let me guess... Alain Prost?

So you're thinking in the same direction?  <G>

Oh please don't take this too seriously  :-)  The real main reason was that the
post DOES sound a little pedantic. I'm not (or don't want to be :-)  ) pedantic,
so I thought "Le Professeur" put things more into perspective.

Le Prof

Another clue:
                ,_   .  ._. _.  .
            , _-\','|~\~      ~/       ;-'_   _-'     ,;_;_,    ~~-
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   /              ,/'-/~ '\ ,' _   , '|,'|~                    ._/-, /~~
   ~/-'~\_,       '-,| '|. '   ~   ,\ /'~  I'M            /    /_  /~
 .-~      '|        '',\~|\        _\~<== HERE!,                /|
           '\        /'~           |_/~\\,-,~  \ "          ,_,/ |
            |       /             ._-~'\_ _~|               \ ) /
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   .,         '\ |,  ~-_       - |          \\_' ~|  /~\  \~ ,
                ~-_'  _;        '\           '-,   \,'  /\/  |
                  '\_,~'\_        \_ _,       /'    '   |, /|'
                    /     \_        ~ |      /          \  ~'; -,_.
                    |       ~\         |    |  ,         '-_, ,; ~ ~\
                     \,      /         \    / /|             ,-, ,   -,
                      |    ,/           |  |' |/           ,-   ~ \   '.
                     ,|   ,/            \ ,/               \       |
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                     / ,'                                        ~
                     ',|  ~
                       ~'  sig courtesy of Jorn Barger
                           Thanks Jorn!

Tim O

A monstrous, thought provoking "sim vs arcade" post

by Tim O » Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:00:00

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:37:35 +0200, asgeir nes?en


>If you think of life in that way, we cannot talk about anything. We're just dinks
>sitting on this planet and just doing pointless things...

>No, we need some slack, we need also discuss pointless things from time to time, like
>"arcade versus sim".

It's fine to discuss it, just not to get too self-important when
discussing it.  :-)

Tim

Mark Daviso

A monstrous, thought provoking "sim vs arcade" post

by Mark Daviso » Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Too damn right.  Nail, head, hit.

Cheers,

Mark
Reading, UK

David Ewin

A monstrous, thought provoking "sim vs arcade" post

by David Ewin » Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:00:00




> >Hmmm .... you call yourself "Le Professeur" and you admit that
> you're chicken
> >.... are you the infamous "Le Chicken" ???!!!???

> Well what I found brought back some memories and there was a
> rumour at that time that Le Chicken was Ymenard.

> In actual fact our brave and fearless leader has been rather
> quiet recently, enough time for twenty pages??

I think the English in this post is a little too good to be Francois (no
offense, Francois).

Dave Ewing

--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing

*****************************************************


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