rec.autos.simulators

by **pez** » Tue, 11 Jul 2000 04:00:00

ok so the 1st impact of all the cars involved would be
lessened....

pez

crumple zones....heheheh, i think about this yesterday, and then
a writer at Speedvision goes and sais the exact same
thing....could i sue for plagerism?

check out
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
0.html for the article...

pez

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by **Brett C. Camma** » Tue, 11 Jul 2000 04:00:00

>check out
>http://www.racesimcentral.net/
>it sais pretty much what im getting at (and more!)

I understand where you both are coming from, but the bottom line is
that until the drivers get together and demand more safety it ain't
gonna happen. There's also the "be careful what you wish for" aspect.
Things were brutally dangerous in F1 until Jackie Stewart got the boys
together and they put their foot down over safety. Now we have safe
little sand-boxes for them to play in. Sure do wish I could watch 'em
run the real Nurburgring or Monza without the chicanes, but, gosh,
that's too dangerous!

This is a dangerous sport. You can die if things go wrong or you
***up. Alway been that way. That's part of the attraction if
you're a racer.

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL

by **Don Scurlo** » Tue, 11 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Maybe this has been tried but I haven't heard of it. Have the driver suspended
inside the cage, so that the seat/harness unit had it's own shock absorbing
system to isolate the driver from the loads going into the cage. You could use
regular springs and shocks that were stiff enough that they would only come
into play on large loads, and would be good for multiply hits, with travel
limited so that the driver couldn't contact anything at max travel. There would
be plenty of room for this in a Nascar chassis.

Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.
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by **Tony StewartNo** » Tue, 11 Jul 2000 04:00:00

If you ask me the smartest thing to do to make NASCAR safer is put the seat in
the center. That would really help. Cause once the car hits driver side you
know thats trouble. Terry Lobonte hit the outside wall and broke his leg.

And maybe they could make like the cars wider and longer extending the bodys
and have that a crumple zone.

---------------------------------------
Http://SWtwok.00game.com

by **pez** » Tue, 11 Jul 2000 04:00:00

No, you miss the point...he says these are driver aids that make racing
safer, yet we see none of them in NASCAR....why?

F1 has had all of them, theyve even tried air bags, but as you said,
stopping from 155 in an instant doesnt give them long enough to deploy, so
they now use the HANS system, a seat belt type system for the helmet. It
works...

anyway, just getting back to my original point, crumple zones make cars
safer....

pez

>Do you realize that you agree with a guy who appears to be saying that
>these cars need airbags, traction control, and anti-lock brakes? He also
>goes on to say how Sprint cars are better than NASCAR in safety due to
>crumple zones. I don't think that I've ever seen a sprint car crumple
>except when it flips over and lands on the wing. Besides, if you look at
>NASCAR, the actual NASCAR series include huge numbers of drivers so just
>saying they have more means nothing. Take just one series of NASCAR,
>let's take Winston Cup in this case, and compare it to the others.
>There's hardly much difference in on track fatalities in the past 10 or so
>years. If you want to make a more fair comparison in terms of numbers,
>clump IRL and CART together and compare it. The point is, NASCAR is just
>as safe as any other series out there and a crumple zone on a NASCAR would
>do precisely***. A head on collision at 155 mph will be fatal no matter
>what you do to the cars, unless somehow you are going to have pillows drop
>out of nowhere the instant before an accident happens, and even then, I
>wouldn't hold my breath.

>-Pav

>> check out
>> http://www.racesimcentral.net/
as
>> it sais pretty much what im getting at (and more!)

>> pez

>> >I dont think anyone has mentioned the fact that the tubular steel nascar
>> >frames dont deform much on impact, and most forces are transfered to the
>> >driver. The open wheel cars are almost all designed with crumple zones
>> made
>> >out of the carbon fibre, absorbing energy.

>> >The fans probably wouldnt like it as it would mean cars not finishing
races
>> >due to damage, but it would be alot easier on the drivers...

>> >pez

by **daxe** » Tue, 11 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Why don't they just make them radio controlled and the drivers can stand up
with the spotters?

:o)

~daxe

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by **Brett C. Camma** » Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:00:00

>Maybe this has been tried but I haven't heard of it. Have the driver suspended
>inside the cage, so that the seat/harness unit had it's own shock absorbing
>system to isolate the driver from the loads going into the cage. You could use
>regular springs and shocks that were stiff enough that they would only come
>into play on large loads, and would be good for multiply hits, with travel
>limited so that the driver couldn't contact anything at max travel. There would
>be plenty of room for this in a Nascar chassis.

Or use a sensor system something like airbags use to trigger a charge
to shoot him out through the roof like a cannonball upon impact. Man,
wouldn't that increase the TV appeal of the sport!! LOL

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL

by **Stephen Ferguso** » Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Another good example of big improvements to come from a little reworking
comes from the IRL. They had a lot of injuries from drivers backing into
the wall. They put a little cube of aluminum honeycomb on the back of the
gearbox, not bigger than 10cm x 10cm x 10cm. The severity of the impacts
(as measured by on-board telemetry) went down by a lot.

Stephen

> I remember a crash in an indycar race in Surfers Paradise where a driver
had
> a big impact, the car crumpelling where it should have and then the
exposed
> tub slowly hitting the wall. The driver said the last hit was the worst
> because all of the energy absorbing parts had gone, and the force of the
> small impact was transfered directly to him, as happens with rigid
srtucture
> cars, as happens with nascars. Im not saying get rid of the tubular
> structures all together, a rigid section around the driver needs to be
kept,
> but the front, sides, and back could all be designed to crumple on impact
> and absorb energy. The only downside to this would be alot more DNFs due
to
> 'rubbin' and tapping the walls etc.

> For a better analogy, try hitting a concrete surface with a
> Crowbar....DOING, all the energy is passed up the bar to your arm as its a
> rigid structure. Now do the same, but stick an empty coke can on the
end -
> not so bad now as the can crumples on impact, absorbing alot of the force.

> thoughts?

> pez

> >I dont think anyone has mentioned the fact that the tubular steel nascar
> >frames dont deform much on impact, and most forces are transfered to the
> >driver. The open wheel cars are almost all designed with crumple zones
> made
> >out of the carbon fibre, absorbing energy.

> >The fans probably wouldnt like it as it would mean cars not finishing
races
> >due to damage, but it would be alot easier on the drivers...

> >pez

by **daxe** » Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> >Maybe this has been tried but I haven't heard of it. Have the driver
suspended
> >inside the cage, so that the seat/harness unit had it's own shock
absorbing
> >system to isolate the driver from the loads going into the cage. You
could use
> >regular springs and shocks that were stiff enough that they would only
come
> >into play on large loads, and would be good for multiply hits, with
travel
> >limited so that the driver couldn't contact anything at max travel. There
would
> >be plenty of room for this in a Nascar chassis.

I'm sure that would do wonders for the drivers' ability to feel what the car
was doing.

~daxe

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by **Stephen Ferguso** » Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> > >Maybe this has been tried but I haven't heard of it. Have the driver
> suspended
> > >inside the cage, so that the seat/harness unit had it's own shock
> absorbing
> > >system to isolate the driver from the loads going into the cage. You
> could use
> > >regular springs and shocks that were stiff enough that they would only
> come
> > >into play on large loads, and would be good for multiply hits, with
> travel
> > >limited so that the driver couldn't contact anything at max travel.
There
> would
> > >be plenty of room for this in a Nascar chassis.

> I'm sure that would do wonders for the drivers' ability to feel what the
car
> was doing.

> ~daxe

Then they could finally fire all those overpaid professionals and hire a
bunch of us sim-racing monkeys! We have learned to do without
seat-of-the-pants feel.

Stephen

by **Ian** » Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Could mount a camera in the***pit and use a monitor with a decent sim
wheel setup to control it. That way they could even mount the camera
about16 feet behind and 10 feet above the car for those who prefer the
arcade feel ;)

--
Ian Parker
"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy."

daxe wrote

by **Eldre** » Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:00:00

>> If you ask me the smartest thing to do to make NASCAR safer is put the
>seat in
>> the center. That would really help. Cause once the car hits driver side
>you
>> know thats trouble. Terry Lobonte hit the outside wall and broke his leg.

>> And maybe they could make like the cars wider and longer extending the
>bodys
>> and have that a crumple zone.

>Why don't they just make them radio controlled and the drivers can stand up
>with the spotters?

Hey, if you can fly a 747 by remote control, you certainly could drive a stock
car...<g>

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
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with experience...
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by **Don Scurlo** » Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:00:00

>> > >Maybe this has been tried but I haven't heard of it. Have the
>> > >driver
>> suspended
>> > >inside the cage, so that the seat/harness unit had it's own
>> > >shock
>> absorbing
>> > >system to isolate the driver from the loads going into the
>> > >cage. You
>> could use
>> > >regular springs and shocks that were stiff enough that they
>> > >would only
>> come
>> > >into play on large loads, and would be good for multiply hits,
>> > >with
>> travel
>> > >limited so that the driver couldn't contact anything at max
>> > >travel.
>There
>> would
>> > >be plenty of room for this in a Nascar chassis.

>> I'm sure that would do wonders for the drivers' ability to feel
>> what the
>car
>> was doing.

>> ~daxe

>Then they could finally fire all those overpaid professionals and
>hire a bunch of us sim-racing monkeys! We have learned to do
>without seat-of-the-pants feel.

>Stephen

Maybe you'd both like to read it again. I said "would only come into
play on large loads". A properly disigned system would only begin to
move under super high loads from impacts, and would be rock solid
under normal driving forces.

--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.
GPLRank -3.51

Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site
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by **jg_race_1..** » Thu, 13 Jul 2000 04:00:00

One thing you guys forgot.....try adding about 2500# of lead to the
CART /IRL /F1 cars and see what happens when they hit the wall nearly
head on at anywhere near 100 mph (let alone 240+). I doubt if ANY
driver would be able to walk away from it, even if they survive it. If
you don't think the tubular chassis give much, find a local racer who
has tagged the wall good enough to break stuff....you will probably
find a bent chassis (maybe not much....but we have totaled cars from
just touching the walls. It all depends how you hit...not how hard).
NASCAR has done everthing they can to prevent deaths from crashes.
Where do you think the "Petty Bar" (the bar running diagonally inside
the greenhouse (cockpit, drivers compartment...whatever) from the upper
right corner to the center of the rear middle cross bar) and
the "Earnhardt Bar" (the bar running from the top of the windsheild to
the bottom) came from??? OK...they weren't killed, but NASCAR learned
those lessons from crashes. Most of the time it's what you never saw
coming that kills you....not what you planned on happening. Ritchie
Evans is the perfect example of this. Ritchie Evans drove NASCAR
Eastern modifieds, and was killed in a race practice crash, running at
about 75 mph. The design of the car killed him, not the crash. NASCAR
made the car owners/builders change the design of the car to allow for
a certain amount of give. If anyone, today, were to have the exact
same crash as Evans, in a NASCAR Modified built today, they would walk
away, and probably not even have a scratch on them. Like I
said....it's not how hard you hit...it's how you hit. I ought to
know...I race off road. I had taken the same jump 100 times. Number
101 hurt. I landed wrong and hurt my back (not bad enough to keep me
out of the car...but it hurt nontheless.) Maybe some good will come
from all of this....we can only hope!!!!

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rec.autos.simulators

Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?

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Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?

Deformable NASCARs.....?