rec.autos.simulators

Car physics: wheelrates vs springrates

Doug Millike

Car physics: wheelrates vs springrates

by Doug Millike » Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:02:19

...

Many cars will engage their progressive bump stops when a couple of people
get in the back seat.  These are often cars where the stylists wanted large
tires/wheels, and didn't leave enough wheel-arch opening for a decent
amount of wheel ride-travel...  Take a look at the bump ***s on some
small cars, I'm sure you can find some with very small clearance, even when
the car is unloaded.  (I go to car dealers on Sunday, when no one is there
to complain about my crawling under the cars...)

Uwe Schuerkam

Car physics: wheelrates vs springrates

by Uwe Schuerkam » Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:02:35


> My vocabulary unfortunately lacks the full version of that
> abbreviation. :) Is it possible to clarify?

alt.humor.best-of-usenet ;-)

Cheers,

uwe

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Jonny Hodgso

Car physics: wheelrates vs springrates

by Jonny Hodgso » Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:58:26




> > I have some ideas on this. With low spring rates, might a regular bump
> > out quickly, or is normally the bump stop on a normal street car never
> > reached? (say on a Ford Focus with 22500 N/m and 17500 N/m springs
> > (not wheelrates))

> I wouldn't be suprised if some less sporting road cars do hit the bump stops
> when abused, but bump stops tend to be progressive I think so you might
> not even notice youve hit them, you wont completely bottom out without a big
> jump if that is what you mean.

I've felt bump-stops on at least a couple of occasions:

- Mondeo ST24, two-up with no luggage, over a 'switchback'
  section of road.  Definitely not close to jumping.

- Punto 1.2, five-up with five archery boxes in the boot!

Neither was particularly progressive...

Jonny

Paul Laidla

Car physics: wheelrates vs springrates

by Paul Laidla » Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:17:58

I have seen cars produce big sparks from underneath in a big dip
I must admit, I guess they must have been well on the bump stops!

Well, 5 up with some boxes in the boot, I can believe it wasn't that
progressive :)

    Paul

Stefan Larsso

Car physics: wheelrates vs springrates

by Stefan Larsso » Thu, 19 Sep 2002 06:09:28


> I thought ODE was actually using a modified Euler-type integration,
> although I'm not sure what the 'modified' entails. :)

I'm actually refering to "Ordinary Differential Equations" (ODE).
Not "ODE", the Open-Source package.

Modified Euler:
http://www.cems.uwe.ac.uk/~klhender/NUMAN1/lec10/node4.html

Two other nice solvers for mechanics:
Runge-Kutta: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Runge-KuttaMethod.html
      Adams: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/AdamsMethod.html

You will probably end up with a function that only is activated when the
tire is 'in' the track and deactivated when it's not.  Highly non-linear.
:)   I guess you won't bother to analyze the stability of that system... *lol*

I guess it depends... I simulated a single tire modeled as a spring
toward the ground and a suspension with a bump stop using MatLab. I set
the following numbers:

        spring          damper
Tire:   175 kN/m        525 Ns/m
Susp:    60 kN/m        460 Ns/m
Bump:  5779 kN/m      -

Wheel mass:  42 kg
   Chassis: 225 kg

Using the standard ODE-solvers in MatLab gave a nice result. Runge-Kutta
4th order solved it nicely too for a fixed time step. But for the same
time step the Euler integration failed (unstable) unless the time step was
ridiculously low.  The bump stop was hard to simulate due to numerical
problems I guess. It did work with very small time steps... Perhaps it
could be simulated using Newtons first law (the one which handles
transfer of momentum when two bodies collide?) with some loss factor?

I guess you need to use "ad hoc" methods to obtain a stable enough solution
in a realtime simulation. As long as it "feels good enough" it should be
ok?  I've been reading a book about computational dynamics (Achmed A.
Shabana 2001, excellent book!) in which I tried to find some methods to
construct general suspensions by reducing the degrees of freedom with
constraints such as H-arms, but it does not seem to be functional for a
simulation. The joints can "float away" if the time steps are too coarse.
And especially when it comes to games, make sure that your methods are robust and
numerically stable!

I guess you need to stiffen your springs then ;)

Hehe, I remembered when I tried a Peugeot rallycar in Racer and the rear
axle started to oscillate at a certain speed... But that's probably a
flaw in the design of the car. *lol*

/Stefan

Ruud van Ga

Car physics: wheelrates vs springrates

by Ruud van Ga » Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:18:35

On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:02:35 +0200, Uwe Schuerkamp



>> My vocabulary unfortunately lacks the full version of that
>> abbreviation. :) Is it possible to clarify?

>alt.humor.best-of-usenet ;-)

Ah! :)
Cool.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/


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