rec.autos.simulators

Who was David Kaemmer?

Pete

Who was David Kaemmer?

by Pete » Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:42:47

    We have a winner! :-)

    Pete


Mar

Who was David Kaemmer?

by Mar » Thu, 12 Aug 2004 01:03:57


> Then why didn't N3 have the same type of wrecks then?  My guess is because
> Charlie Heath did the net code for N3 and someone else did GPL/N4.

> Bill Bollinger
> www.gsxn.com

My guess is because in Papy sims, cars were nailed to the deck up until GPL and N4.

:)

Regards,

Mark Davison
www.v8thunder.com

JP

Who was David Kaemmer?

by JP » Thu, 12 Aug 2004 07:54:08



  Then they need to be re-nailed, if what happens in gpl, etc. is the
alternative.

ymenar

Who was David Kaemmer?

by ymenar » Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:34:41


>   Then they need to be re-nailed, if what happens in gpl, etc. is the
> alternative.

Prediction code is, unfortunately, a two-sided knife.  It cannot be perfect,
it can only predict.  If it's too soft, it can be as worse as if it was too
tight.  Papyrus perhaps went a little too tight in their earlier multiplayer
release, and have loosened up to a level in NR2003 that is very satisfying.

You see, if you have a prediction code like in Nascar Heat, you have very
smooth cars that don't seem much warpy.  Unfortunately, most of that
smoothness is due to the more heavy prediction code.  When it predicts, it's
not always telling the truth.  In NH and in I think ISI multiplayer, the
server relies too much on predicting, giving the whole experience a
ghost-like feeling of not really driving against other human beings, but
predicting of what they will do in the next split second (that action being
replicated each next split second after).  Now that gives you the advantage
that since it predicts more, the solid mass of cars doesn't give you
impossible physics as much as in those Papy multiplayer crashes.

Because we need to remember that the graphic engine of those cars, the
physical appearance on screen has NO EFFECT on physics and crashes.  It's
all done in "another reality" within the virtual reality of the sim.
Because of the more rough prediction code of Papyrus, you get a more real
sense of driving against other humans, because it predicts less.  So you are
given closer to reality data of the other opponents.  That unfortunately
makes it also more possible to have physics that go bezerk.

Until we start seeing physics that are done with the polygons themselves in
real-time (and not a reality within the virtual reality), things like that
will continue to happen.  Only by putting "brackets" so that let's say, a
speed of a stock car cannot exceed 245mph or that it's velocity cannot
exceed X, or go below Y in a Z lapse of time, can we diminish it.

Of course when (and we already have in certain simulations) real-time
physics are done within the game engine itself, and with the advancing of
computer power, you won't have that anymore.  Cars will be real entities on
the tracks, so if a collision arrives, it will be because of those polygons
hitting each other.  They will not pass through each other, and the physics
won't go bezerk anymore.  But those technologies are really crude compared
to the potential in the future, with real-time physics in the game engine
acting with all the entities on screen.  From the wheels to even the simple
needle in the gauge or the pitroad wall, will be an entity with a mass and a
volume, not lifeless polygons that have specific hidden information like it
is nowadays.  I've said a long time ago that we will have a regression of
the simulation with that transition, as it's so complicated that sims that
start using those techniques, will be seen as more crude compared to those
who predict.

I hope somebody still reads this ;)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

JP

Who was David Kaemmer?

by JP » Fri, 13 Aug 2004 02:34:29



> >   Then they need to be re-nailed, if what happens in gpl, etc. is the
> > alternative.

> Prediction code is, unfortunately, a two-sided knife.  It cannot be
perfect,
> it can only predict.  If it's too soft, it can be as worse as if it was
too
> tight.  Papyrus perhaps went a little too tight in their earlier
multiplayer
> release, and have loosened up to a level in NR2003 that is very
satisfying.

> You see, if you have a prediction code like in Nascar Heat, you have very
> smooth cars that don't seem much warpy.  Unfortunately, most of that
> smoothness is due to the more heavy prediction code.  When it predicts,
it's
> not always telling the truth.  In NH and in I think ISI multiplayer, the
> server relies too much on predicting, giving the whole experience a
> ghost-like feeling of not really driving against other human beings, but
> predicting of what they will do in the next split second (that action
being
> replicated each next split second after).  Now that gives you the
advantage
> that since it predicts more, the solid mass of cars doesn't give you
> impossible physics as much as in those Papy multiplayer crashes.

> Because we need to remember that the graphic engine of those cars, the
> physical appearance on screen has NO EFFECT on physics and crashes.  It's
> all done in "another reality" within the virtual reality of the sim.
> Because of the more rough prediction code of Papyrus, you get a more real
> sense of driving against other humans, because it predicts less.  So you
are
> given closer to reality data of the other opponents.  That unfortunately
> makes it also more possible to have physics that go bezerk.

> Until we start seeing physics that are done with the polygons themselves
in
> real-time (and not a reality within the virtual reality), things like that
> will continue to happen.  Only by putting "brackets" so that let's say, a
> speed of a stock car cannot exceed 245mph or that it's velocity cannot
> exceed X, or go below Y in a Z lapse of time, can we diminish it.

> Of course when (and we already have in certain simulations) real-time
> physics are done within the game engine itself, and with the advancing of
> computer power, you won't have that anymore.  Cars will be real entities
on
> the tracks, so if a collision arrives, it will be because of those
polygons
> hitting each other.  They will not pass through each other, and the
physics
> won't go bezerk anymore.  But those technologies are really crude compared
> to the potential in the future, with real-time physics in the game engine
> acting with all the entities on screen.  From the wheels to even the
simple
> needle in the gauge or the pitroad wall, will be an entity with a mass and
a
> volume, not lifeless polygons that have specific hidden information like
it
> is nowadays.  I've said a long time ago that we will have a regression of
> the simulation with that transition, as it's so complicated that sims that
> start using those techniques, will be seen as more crude compared to those
> who predict.

> I hope somebody still reads this ;)

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

  All well and good, but when a simulated 3400 lb car gets put into the
stratosphere from a 5 mph tap, all the bells and whistles reasons don't
amount to squat. <g>  It worked better BEFORE N4, it can do it again.
  But then again, the damage model in N1 was better than 03 too, lol.
  Yeah, progress.
Ed Solhei

Who was David Kaemmer?

by Ed Solhei » Fri, 13 Aug 2004 23:37:43

N3 and GPL/N4 physics are hardly comparable.

Having said that - yes I too think they can improve it... just look at LFS.

--
Ed_



Bill Bollinge

Who was David Kaemmer?

by Bill Bollinge » Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:28:11

Ed, the joke is this.  When I beta tested N4, I brought this problem up
almost immediately.  You should have seen the skyrockets back then.  The
same BS was shovled back then as it is being tried by some today.  That it
is warp.  blah blah blah.  The network code in N4/N2002/N2003 is not as good
as N3.  Physics or not.

Bill Bollinger
www.gsxn.com


> N3 and GPL/N4 physics are hardly comparable.

> Having said that - yes I too think they can improve it... just look at
LFS.

> --
> Ed_



> > Then why didn't N3 have the same type of wrecks then?  My guess is
because
> > Charlie Heath did the net code for N3 and someone else did GPL/N4.

> > Bill Bollinger
> > www.gsxn.com


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