rec.autos.simulators

by **ymenar** » Sun, 27 Jul 1997 04:00:00

> > Speed

> > >> does not kill. I have had two people very close to me die in auto
> > >> accidents (my father and a friend) and neither time was it because of
> > >> speed, both were caused by impact. For a person to say that Krosnoff's

> > >> speed was the major contributing factor to this accident is to show
> > >> one's
> > >> ignorance.

> > Above edited for brevity..

> > You need a class in Physics. Speed is the largest factor in figuring impact
> > force!Without speed there is no impact! Would your loved ones been killed
> > had they and the other party been sitting still??? Only if a third party with
> > speed were to hit them... .... I suggest it was you showing your ignorance.

> So according to you if you are going 200 and brush the wall you should
> die because you were going fast and you hit the wall.

> Speed doesn't matter, well it does but way less than you believe. It
> depends on how you hit the object. Whoever said that speed kills was
> high.

> --
> PolePosition#3- IVGA #4882

> The Checkered Flag(NASCAR2):
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> My Unofficial Dale Earnhardt Fan Page:
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> The Dale Earnhardt Fan Ring:
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> "If you don't believe, you don't belong." -- Alan Kulwicki's Credo

It's more that the speed helped Krosnoof to be killed. speed don't
kills. It helps in the processus of having a chance being killed. The
same impact at 60mhp wouldn't have been the same. Physics had a big
role in it. The newtons that are implicated in the crash were so hign
IMHO. Hitting a pole that had a big potential initial force was the
thing that killed him.

With great respect,
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)

SPEED- Co-director
SPEED- http://www.racesimcentral.net/

AWPSS- Director of the SimRacing section
AWPSS- http://www.racesimcentral.net/

SRHoF- Director
SRHoF- Coming online in 1week !

- *Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking) * -

by **C. Chad Alcar** » Mon, 28 Jul 1997 04:00:00

: >

: > >

: > > >

: > > >
: > > Speed
: > > >>
: > > >> does not kill. I have had two people very close to me die in auto
: > > >> accidents (my father and a friend) and neither time was it because of
: > > >> speed, both were caused by impact. For a person to say that Krosnoff's
: > > >>
: > > >> speed was the major contributing factor to this accident is to show
: > > >> one's
: > > >> ignorance.
: > > >>
: > > Above edited for brevity..
: > >
: > > You need a class in Physics. Speed is the largest factor in figuring impact
: > > force!Without speed there is no impact! Would your loved ones been killed
: > > had they and the other party been sitting still??? Only if a third party with
: > > speed were to hit them... .... I suggest it was you showing your ignorance.
: >
: > Check your physics book again.
: >
: > Put your back to a wall.
: >
: > If I fire a grain of sand at you at 60 mph it's not going to do much
: > damage.
: > But a huge bolder a 1 mph can kill you.
: >
: > "damage" = mass x speed (and alot of other things)
: >
: > mykey
:
: If you really want to get technical,
:
: Force = Mass x Acceleration
:
: --
: Shawn Kosloff
: Team Marriott Legends Racing/MALCAR
: http://www.lamere.net/hss/koz.htm
:

Yes and the human body can only support so many g's (ie force) and
then it begins to detiriate...bruises, broken bones, death...

wow this has become a very educational thread.
--
Chad Alcares

by **Duncan Mclo** » Mon, 28 Jul 1997 04:00:00

>> Speed

>> >> does not kill. I have had two people very close to me die in auto
>> >> accidents (my father and a friend) and neither time was it because of
>> >> speed, both were caused by impact. For a person to say that Krosnoff's

>> >> speed was the major contributing factor to this accident is to show
>> >> one's
>> >> ignorance.

>> Above edited for brevity..

>> You need a class in Physics. Speed is the largest factor in figuring
impact
>> force!Without speed there is no impact! Would your loved ones been killed
>> had they and the other party been sitting still??? Only if a third party
with
>> speed were to hit them... .... I suggest it was you showing your
ignorance.

>Check your physics book again.

>Put your back to a wall.

>If I fire a grain of sand at you at 60 mph it's not going to do much
>damage.
>But a huge bolder a 1 mph can kill you.

>"damage" = mass x speed (and alot of other things)

>mykey

Now we are getting ridiculous. Obviously speed in and of itself does not
kill!! otherwise you would die everytime your car struck a mosquito. Quit
trying to make others look stupid by taking an extreem view. I SAID SPEED WAS
A BIG FACTOR IN IMPACT FORCE, and though you disagreed with me I notice your
equation lists speed and mass as the factors!! \Sounds like I was right on
the money to me!!! I would add angle of impact into the equation, as well as
mass and structure for all objects involved in the collision

- Show quoted text -

by **Jon Mullin** » Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:00:00

>> For all the people who say NASCAR is better, because they don't drive
>> as
>> fast. How many of you know people that died in auto accidents. Were
>> they going anywhere near the speeds that any of these racing cars go.
Speed
>> does not kill. I have had two people very close to me die in auto
>> accidents (my father and a friend) and neither time was it because of
>> speed, both were caused by impact. For a person to say that Krosnoff's
>> speed was the major contributing factor to this accident is to show
>> one's ignorance.

I think the main difference between stock cars and Indy cars is the wheels,
if two stock cars would have touched like that it would have ended up as
a spin into the wall, but with Indycars if wheels touch it launches the car.

True, but NASCAR drivers don't run that fast in turns at road courses.
Probably between 60-90 mph in a turn on a road course.

Jon Mullins

by **Jim Sokolof** » Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:00:00

> >If you really want to get technical,

> >Force = Mass x Acceleration
> You are referring to g force. impact force is what we are talking about.

F = m * a is a physical law. I don't give a rat's ass what kind of force
you're talking about, that law is still true in any inertial frame of
reference. (For the purposes of this discussion, racing cars on the
earth is an inertial frame... :-) )

Humans are remarkable robust during impacts. From memory, I'm fairly
certain that properly distributed forces allow humans to survive
instantaneous loads of ~50-60 "g's" and short, but sustained loads of
over 20 g's. In every case though, the force exerted on the body is the
mass of the body times the acceleration the body is undergoing.

---Jim

by **Jim Sokolof** » Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:00:00

>[Good points about the relative safety of closed-wheel cars snipped]
> True, but NASCAR drivers don't run that fast in turns at road courses.
> Probably between 60-90 mph in a turn on a road course.

I'd imagine that the Winston Cup boys hit over 120 going into turn 1a at
Sears Point, and are definitely hauling the mail down to the Inner Loop
(though the turn itself is fairly slow...)

---Jim

by **<remove this>pisto** » Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:00:00

> F = m * a is a physical law. In every case though, the force exerted >on the body is the
> mass of the body times the acceleration the body is undergoing.

> ---Jim

All I know is, if you hit something really hard, it hurts. :)
--
God Bless,
Steve

(remove the <remove this> from my address when
replying via e-mail)

by **Dan Arnol** » Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:00:00

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> >> For all the people who say NASCAR is better, because they don't
> drive
> >> as
> >> fast. How many of you know people that died in auto accidents. Were

> >> they going anywhere near the speeds that any of these racing cars
> go.
> Speed
> >> does not kill. I have had two people very close to me die in auto
> >> accidents (my father and a friend) and neither time was it because
> of
> >> speed, both were caused by impact. For a person to say that
> Krosnoff's
> >> speed was the major contributing factor to this accident is to show

> >> one's ignorance.

for those of you who think speed kills, come on up to Connecticut, and
drive around on I84 at the speed limit (55) and since your doing the
speed limit drive in the left hand lane.You will get rear ended by a car
coming up on you, at the speed traffic is flowing, 75-80, we have them
all the time, that's not the speed that has anything to do with the
crash, or the injurys that occour, the blame falls partialy on the moron
that was doing 55, and on John Rowland and the State Senate, who insist
on 55, with highways that were safe at speeds of 75, for cars in the
1950's.

- Show quoted text -

The open wheel vs. Nascar thing really gets me. I was at a race near
me, and as two cars were going into turn 3 one of them touched the
others wheel, and launched them, the car ended up with the rear wheels
on the track, and the right front on top of the wall, The car that got
launched was driven by Steve Park, he's gotten a new ride since then,
heard it was for some guy named earnhardt.
Another incident at the beginning of this year, It was in Flemington
NJ, and I wasn't there to see it, but the #13 car of my favorite driver,
Ted Christopher, ended up on top of another car, after touching wheels.
NOTE: NASCAR began with one series, the modifieds, this series still
exists and is the both the oldest and best of NASCAR, the Featherlite
Modified tour is on TV August 24, on ESPN2, if you want to see Open
Wheel racing, NASCAR style (However it is at Watkins Glenn, hardly the
norm for the Mod Squad)

"By The Grace of God, and 700 Horsepower" FMT moto...

Dan Arnold
Http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/downs/4402/index.html

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<HTML>
 >> For all the people who say NASCAR is better, because
they don't drive
 >> as
 >> fast. How many of you know people that died in auto
accidents. Were
 >> they going anywhere near the speeds that any of these
racing cars go.
 Speed
 >> does not kill. I have had two people very close to
me die in auto
 >> accidents (my father and a friend) and neither time
was it because of
 >> speed, both were caused by impact. For a person to
say that Krosnoff's
 >> speed was the major contributing factor to this accident
is to show
 >> one's ignorance.</BLOCKQUOTE>
for those  of you who think speed kills, come on up to Connecticut,
and drive around on I84 at the speed limit (55) and since your doing the
speed limit drive in the left hand lane.You will get rear ended by a car
coming up on you, at the speed traffic is flowing, 75-80, we have them
all the time, that's not the speed that has anything to do with the crash,
or the injurys that occour, the blame falls partialy on the moron that
was doing 55, and on John Rowland and the State Senate, who insist on 55,
with highways that were safe at speeds of 75, for cars in the 1950's.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>

I think the main difference between stock cars and Indy
cars is the wheels,
 if two stock cars would have touched like that 
it would have ended up as
 a spin into the wall, but with Indycars if wheels touch
it launches the car.

>> The top speed at Toronto is 180 mph.  They were
already in the braking
 >> zone, so I would say that they were probably in the
120 to 150 mph
 >> range.
 >> NASCAR drivers drive this fast are you saying that
this is too fast.
 >> NASCAR drivers also don't street race. Remember you
good ole boys find
 >> that boring. I myself find myself hitting the snooze
button whenever
 >> there is a NASCAR race on.

True, but NASCAR drivers don't run that fast in turns
at road courses.
 Probably between 60-90 mph in a turn on a road course.

Jon Mullins</BLOCKQUOTE>
The open wheel vs. Nascar thing really gets me.    I was
at a race near me, and as two cars were going into turn 3 one of them touched
the others wheel, and launched them, the car ended up with the rear wheels
on the track, and the right front on top of the wall, The car that got
launched was driven by Steve Park, he's gotten a new ride since then, heard
it was for some guy named earnhardt.
     Another incident at the beginning of this year,
It was in Flemington NJ, and I wasn't there to see it, but the #13 car
of my favorite driver, Ted Christopher, ended up on top of another car,
after touching wheels.
 NOTE: NASCAR began with one series, the modifieds, this series still
exists and is the both the oldest and best of NASCAR, the Featherlite Modified
tour is on TV August 24, on ESPN2, if you want to see Open Wheel racing,
NASCAR style (However it is at Watkins Glenn, hardly the norm for the Mod
Squad)

"By The Grace of God, and 700 Horsepower" FMT moto...

Dan Arnold
 <A HREF="Http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/downs/4402/index.html">Http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/downs/4402/index.html</A>

</HTML>

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by **Bill** » Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:00:00

> If you really want to get technical,

> Force = Mass x Acceleration

> --
> Shawn Kosloff
> Team Marriott Legends Racing/MALCAR
> http://www.lamere.net/hss/koz.htm

(and to get even more technically anal)
In case of constant velocity (zero acceleration)
we can represent an object in motion as a form of
energy, perhaps as (1/2mass)*velocity squared?

Or the driver's impulse at impact defined
as Force/dt. Or the integral of Fdt.

We can even use a momentum equation where
Integral of Fdt = m(v2-v1)

So now we've introduced a new variable. Time. What was the
impulse on impact?

:)
-bill

by **SimRaci** » Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Gee...seems to me that if the guy who was doing 75 rear-ends a
car doing the posted speed-limit, then he shouldn't have been
doing what amounts to an unsafe speed - 75.

Marc

by **Ignoran** » Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:00:00

Allow me to be the next person to proclaim my ignorance by saying speed
kills. The last time I checked, it seemed like without any "speed" it
was impossible to have an "impact". Maybe this is no longer true since
the speed limits were lowered- perhaps there were ammendments in
Congress to the Laws of Physics and I missed it I dunno. Seems to me
that if you hit something going 100mph that you hit it harder than if
you were going 50 mph- but perhaps this is not true. I guess it must
also not be true that if you hit something at 200 there is more impact
than at 50.
But lets talk about hitting something "wrong"... because as we
all know of course, this is the reason people die in accidents- not
because they were going 50 or 100 or 200mph right? Everyone knows that
if you hit something wrong you are going to die- period. It doesnt
matter how fast you are going- if you hit something wrong at 10 mph, you
are going to die- zero chance for survival. If I walk out the door at 3
mph and "hit wrong" well, I'm as good as dead- therefore I never get out
of my car now- it's much safer that way. As long as you hit "the right
way" you can go as fast as you want and not even get scratched-
400,800,lets face it- unlimited mph with no chance of injury whatsoever.
It's all those bonehead drivers out there that cause those "wrong
impacts" anyway and they're all related genetically to the lawmakers and
racing officials who want to reduce the speeds on our highways and
racing tracks....
Speed does not kill I guess... because everyone knows, of
course, had Mr. Krosnoff been going 10 mph instead of the estimated 120
he would still be dead. Allow me to prove this in the following
equation:

Mass x Speed x Hitting Something Wrong = Dead

If we plug in the numbers here we get something like this.... 1500 x
120 x wrong = Dead
However, if we plug in the "right way to crash we get this.... 1500 x
300 x right = Kept right on goin'...never even scuffed a tire.

Obviously, the facts speak for themselves here.

Now I like auto racing ( yes both Nascar and Formula 1 ) as much as the
next gearhead. I wouldn't worry too much about the officials reducing
the speeds. If they did that nobody would watch their events and they
then would not make any money, now would they? Besides, I hear there is
a "hit right" device that is in development that will allow unlimited
speeds, the only limit being how fast our eyes will be able to follow
the cars...

We all know, of course, that Senna, Fox, Brayton and others that
have been killed or severely injured in racing accidents died because
they "hit wrong"... It would not have mattered one bit if Mr. Senna had
hit the wall going only 50 mph- we all know this- he still would have
died. Had Olivier Panis in this years Canadian Grand Prix hit at 10 mph,
we all know that his legs still would have broken, so he might as well
have been going 200 and been having more fun for himself and the fans. I
really don't see what those officials are thinking when they try to
reduce those speeds on the cars when so much more development and
resources could be done on the Hit Right device- then EVERYONE would
want to watch our heroes race at 1000 mph and we'll all have more fun.

well that's all I have to say for the moment... keep on speeding all-
it's completely safe...

rec.autos.simulators

Krosnoff: Just the facts

Krosnoff: Just the facts

Krosnoff: Just the facts

Krosnoff: Just the facts

Krosnoff: Just the facts

Krosnoff: Just the facts

Krosnoff: Just the facts

Krosnoff: Just the facts

Krosnoff: Just the facts

Krosnoff: Just the facts

Krosnoff: Just the facts

Krosnoff: Just the facts