rec.autos.simulators

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

Mar

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Mar » Thu, 28 Mar 2002 18:57:14

I'm preparing for the arrival of my RS Shifter in 2.5 weeks, I've
converted an old T2 pedal set to a clutch to use alongside my NASCAR
Pro pedals.

I've always been a left foot braker, but I find I get more immersed
using the clutch on gearchange and heel-toeing (well, more like
side-of-foot-toe).  I'm slower, but I enjoy the experience more.

Any tips on downchange would be welcome.  Here's a starter question -
once I move from a sequential shift to direct selection, should I
still change down thru the gears?  For example when entering the inner
loop at Watkins Glen, should I go from 4th to 2nd or 4, 3, 2?

Thanks very much in advance.

Mark,
Reading, UK

Txl

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Txl » Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:13:16

well if you have a shifter the POINT is that you can do 4-2 straight, so
***the 3rd.

--
The first ever pinball ezboard !!
http://www.racesimcentral.net/



Glen Pittma

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Glen Pittma » Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:38:26

This is probably wrong, but I feel that the car slows quicker if I downshift
through the gears.  I would think staying in 4th until safe to pull second
would lessen the effect of engine braking, and lengthen the distance
required to slow enough to get into the inner loop.

Again, I may be wrong here.


HJ

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by HJ » Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:56:08

You have to go through the box, so;

- clutch
- back to third while at the mean time matching the revs heel and toeing
- declutch
- clutch
- back to second, again heel and toeing.
- declutch

Make sure that you heel and toe, otherwise the rear end becomes very
unstable, you'll rely far too much on engine braking which in real life is
also bad for the gear box (besides the fact that it can through you into a
spin).


Gerald Moo

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Gerald Moo » Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:41:55

I think in a some real-world transmissions it is necessary/helpful to
move down through all the gears, in terms of reducing the risk of
breaking something.  Could also make it a little easier to acquire
accuracy matching rpms and also possibly allow for greater
deceleration where engine braking is important.

In N4 and NR2002, I find that I need some engine braking to help slow
the car, so I'd probably still be going through all the gears.  I
don't have a clutch or shifter, though, and so am curious what others
may say about this.

Gerald


> I'm preparing for the arrival of my RS Shifter in 2.5 weeks, I've
> converted an old T2 pedal set to a clutch to use alongside my NASCAR
> Pro pedals.

> I've always been a left foot braker, but I find I get more immersed
> using the clutch on gearchange and heel-toeing (well, more like
> side-of-foot-toe).  I'm slower, but I enjoy the experience more.

> Any tips on downchange would be welcome.  Here's a starter question -
> once I move from a sequential shift to direct selection, should I
> still change down thru the gears?  For example when entering the inner
> loop at Watkins Glen, should I go from 4th to 2nd or 4, 3, 2?

> Thanks very much in advance.

> Mark,
> Reading, UK

Steve Garrot

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Steve Garrot » Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:32:24

It is my understanding that in 1967 they use a sequentail shifter and
thus you would not be allowed to shift from 4th to 2nd, so since you
could not do it in 1967, you an strickly forbidden to do so now!
Hahahahahahahah, do what ever gets you the best time! :-)

SLG


>I'm preparing for the arrival of my RS Shifter in 2.5 weeks, I've
>converted an old T2 pedal set to a clutch to use alongside my NASCAR
>Pro pedals.

>I've always been a left foot braker, but I find I get more immersed
>using the clutch on gearchange and heel-toeing (well, more like
>side-of-foot-toe).  I'm slower, but I enjoy the experience more.

>Any tips on downchange would be welcome.  Here's a starter question -
>once I move from a sequential shift to direct selection, should I
>still change down thru the gears?  For example when entering the inner
>loop at Watkins Glen, should I go from 4th to 2nd or 4, 3, 2?

>Thanks very much in advance.

>Mark,
>Reading, UK

(All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new
and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are
due to too many English classes/teachers)
Gerry Aitke

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Gerry Aitke » Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:49:00


> It is my understanding that in 1967 they use a sequentail shifter and
> thus you would not be allowed to shift from 4th to 2nd, so since you
> could not do it in 1967, you an strickly forbidden to do so now!
> Hahahahahahahah, do what ever gets you the best time! :-)

Could you quote your source please?
Mark Daviso

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Mark Daviso » Fri, 29 Mar 2002 04:54:51

Thanks for the opinions guys.  I've actually got the shifter now, but the
only way I could lay my hands on one (we're not made of money) was to agree
that it was my birthday present from my wife - and that's not until April
15 - so it sits boxed up under the spare bed.

I'm jazzed about setting it up which is why I ask a question where the only
real "try it and see what suits you best" :-)

Anyways I'd still be interested in knowing what real WC drivers do.

Mark,
Reading, UK

artie beame

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by artie beame » Fri, 29 Mar 2002 05:41:55

they would slap her and use it

Gerald Moo

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Gerald Moo » Fri, 29 Mar 2002 07:19:27


> Thanks for the opinions guys.  I've actually got the shifter now, but the
> only way I could lay my hands on one (we're not made of money) was to agree
> that it was my birthday present from my wife - and that's not until April
> 15 - so it sits boxed up under the spare bed.

Oh, man, that's just CRUEL AND UNUSUAL.

My wife and I have a system something like this... but usually she
lets me go ahead and have whatever it is I am whining about.  Also, I
am technically not supposed to get ANYTHING ELSE for my birthday until
I am about 47 years old.

I actually have no idea if they go sequentially or not.  I do know
they tend to not use the clutch at all, the Jerico *** doesn't seem
to mind.

Happy Birthday,
Gerald

Leo Landma

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Leo Landma » Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:48:59



Whatever you prefer. Most drivers went through the gears but I remember Jim
Clark didn't when braking for Tarzan corner at Zandvoort. He went from top
gear to first or second in one shift.
Oh, and they often didn't use the clutch when shifting <g>

Bye,
Leo

Dave Henri

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Dave Henri » Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:32:29

"Leo Landman" > Whatever you prefer. Most drivers went through the gears but
I remember Jim
  Or you could use the method that Phil Hill did when he drove the
Chapparall 2J....Put it in Drive and forget shifting...  :)
dave henrie

Tom Pabs

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Tom Pabs » Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:49:07

Mark...

Good question....but one without a simple answer.

Truly, you need to become proficient using both downshifting techniques to
be an all-around good race car driver.  We sim drivers have the benefit of
being able to race many different types of race cars, often from several
"periods" in racing.  The equipment differs, the transmission differs as
cars become more modern in design and the technique(s) for driving them
(fast) therefore must change.

There is no "one right way" to downshift.  That fact becomes apparent when
one considers the fastest race cars in the world (F1 cars) must be shifted
down completely through the gears (blazingly fast I admit)....from 7th to
1st......for a 1st-gear turn!  If sequential downshifting was inherently
slow....F1 race cars wouldn't have sequential shifters (electronic or not).
A lot depends on the type of race car you are running, and the "situation"
you are running in during a race.

However, if one general rule could be made I think it would be this:  "Use
the brakes to slow the car as often and as much as possible.  Brake pads are
much less expensive than engines and gearboxes to replace!"  This is a fact
often heard by me in my rookie racing season from my crew chief screaming it
at me in my left ear (radio ear) during practice sessions at PIR.

Here's some car types (sims) and some situations I can share with you were I
use both techniques.  You will have to adapt what I do, to your driving
style and your level of experience.

1.  In GPL, I almost never "gear select"....I almost always sequentially
downshift because it seems to settle the car (particularly under threshold
braking) and I can use the "throttle-on" cheat in GPL to my advantage.

2.  In F1-2001, there's no choice and you better be proficient at getting
down through the gears or you will be killed by the online drivers who are.
I use a "drumbeat" cadence to shift down through the gears.....knowing where
to stop the cadence puts me in the right gear every time.  Its something
like:  Dat....Da, Da, Dat....Dat -- Dat (that's down from 7th to 1st...with
a brief pause before entering 1st gear).  If I'm in 7th gear and need to go
to 3rd gear for a turn.......I do a "Dat, Da, Da, Dat"....and stop - that
automatically puts me in 3rd gear (each "dat" is a gear change down)....its
a cadence thing...and it works for me.  I have no idea what the real F1
drivers do....but I will bet you they have some kind of a "cadence" thing
they do to gear select for turn entry....you almost never hear or see them
miss a gear going down.

3.  In NASCAR racing (N4 or N2K2) I use both techniques.....often in the
same race.  If I'm running solo laps....not racing anyone directly and
wanting to click off fast....but easy-on-the-car-and-tires type laps, I tend
to sequentially downshift.  I find my lap times are consistent...and it
helps me build a smooth rhythm in the car that allows me to click off lap
after lap of fairly fast times....consistent and easy on the equipment.  If
I'm racing someone for position....I tend to gear-select downshift....for
some reason I am able to concentrate more on my competitors car and
position...and can get off the corners quicker using this technique.  This
may be something I've developed that works only for me.....but I kind of
doubt it.

At WG, since you specifically mention it.....I do not use 2nd gear entering
the IL.  I found that being under throttle at the entry to the IL was a
disadvantage.  I slow down...enter and motor through the entry to the IL in
3rd....then grab 2nd just before I'm ready to get back on the throttle hard
to exit out of the IL.  I found this allowed me to enter...and exit the IL
with much more consistency and speed.  You might give it a try and see if it
feels good to you.  I lowered my lap times almost a full second doing this
technique.  I learned it from George Sandman.

Also at WG, I use both first gear and second gear in T1.  I purposely set my
gearing to allow that "option".....and almost never "gear select" downshift
into T1.  If I'm trying to outbrake someone into T1....on the inside, then I
want the quick jump grabbing 1st gear gives me going through the turn (now
with a much smaller radius since I'm the inside car)....and I can usually
beat my competition off the corner with this technique (Remember, all I have
to do to make this pass work is to come out of T1 on the inside of my
competition's car.....even just a nose inside works....if I can match his
speed down to T2...I'm in position to own that turn and the pass is
complete).  If running solo into the turn, I use 2nd gear....not so much
because of the smoothness and rhythm....its because it keeps me from hopping
my rear tires if I'm a bit to "hot" into the turn....try to grab 1st gear
when you are a bit too hot into T1 at WG and you'll snap spin your car every
time from wheel hop (remember when Dale Jarrett did that at last year's WG
race???)!  2nd gear...gives me a little more margin of error in this regard.

I don't know if this all directly answers your question....but I hope it
provides some insight into the issues.

Regards,

Tom


na_bike

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by na_bike » Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:54:21

On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:49:00 +0000, Gerry Aitken


>> It is my understanding that in 1967 they use a sequentail shifter and
>> thus you would not be allowed to shift from 4th to 2nd, so since you
>> could not do it in 1967, you an strickly forbidden to do so now!
>> Hahahahahahahah, do what ever gets you the best time! :-)

>Could you quote your source please?

It's true. I know for a fact that the ZF gearbox on the Lotus 49 had
to at least be downshifted in gear order. Don't know about all the
cars though, some had strange variants. For example, the BRM had some
pre-selection system where you first shifted up and then you stabbed
the clutch and it shifted. Dunno how long they used that system,
though.

Well, you're not supposed to skip gears anyways. ;-)

Gerry Aitke

Gearchange - gimme some tips people. Pabst, you there?

by Gerry Aitke » Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:10:20


> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:49:00 +0000, Gerry Aitken

> >> It is my understanding that in 1967 they use a sequentail shifter and
> >> thus you would not be allowed to shift from 4th to 2nd, so since you
> >> could not do it in 1967, you an strickly forbidden to do so now!
> >> Hahahahahahahah, do what ever gets you the best time! :-)

> >Could you quote your source please?

> It's true. I know for a fact that the ZF gearbox on the Lotus 49 had
> to at least be downshifted in gear order. Don't know about all the
> cars though, some had strange variants. For example, the BRM had some
> pre-selection system where you first shifted up and then you stabbed
> the clutch and it shifted. Dunno how long they used that system,
> though.

> Well, you're not supposed to skip gears anyways. ;-)

I'm not saying it's not true, I just would like to see read the source.

Gerry


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