NASCAR Racing 2003 Interview

Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that mean, anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR Racing. Now what, Rich?

Oopsies, forgot the URL: http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=9950 "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that mean, > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR Racing.Now > what, Rich? > >

In article <oK9v9.26185$[email hidden]>, ssmith12 @rochester.rr.com says...

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> Oopsies, forgot the URL: > > http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=9950 > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that mean, > > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR Racing. > Now > > what, Rich? > >

In a nutshell... 1) Four different car models for the different manufacturers. (I wanted this) 2) Opponent pit crews can be seen, but no specific merntion of them being animated (I wanted this) 3) One fantasy track (yawn) 4) New physics model (akin to jump from NR2 to GPL) 5) Solar effects (lens flare & sun glare) - yawn 6) Animated flags, jumbotrons, & infield objects - yawn 7) Accumulation of dirt/oil on windshield 8) Bumps in track surface modeled 9) Revamped AI (again? yawn) 10) Higher-res textures for trackside objects 11) Higher-res pitcrews 12) Pit stop frequency setting for shorter races (I wanted this) 13) Auto-adjusting AI strength and something they call "Catch-up AI Mode". 14) Program is on schedule to be finished by mid-January and on store shelves buy the beginning of February. I would have really liked to be getting a track editor too so we could add tracks of our own... -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Don't you know that a future computer auto sim is of such incredible importance that it has to be kept top secret? The earth could explode if this information slips out too early. David G Fisher "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that mean, > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR Racing.Now > what, Rich? > >

So...whats papy going to do AFTER n2003?? dan "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oK9v9.26185$[email hidden]...

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> Oopsies, forgot the URL: > > http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=9950 > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that mean, > > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR Racing. > Now > > what, Rich? > > > > > >

> 4) New physics model (akin to jump from NR2 to GPL) > Its such a shame that its "wasted" on a Nascar sim. I'd love to see an F1 sim from papy (any era to be honest), or a sportscar / touring car (BTCC especially). Even CART would be nice (I am not a complete oval-hater :)). I wonder what their new direction will be. Ash http://www.siroccoracing.com

Well you say wasted while others are looking forward to it. "Ashley McConnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apjfj0$oja$[email hidden]...

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> > 4) New physics model (akin to jump from NR2 to GPL) > > > > Its such a shame that its "wasted" on a Nascar sim. I'd love to see an F1 > sim from papy (any era to be honest), or a sportscar / touring car (BTCC > especially). Even CART would be nice (I am not a complete oval-hater :)). > I wonder what their new direction will be. > > Ash > http://www.siroccoracing.com > > > >

"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wfbv9.162200$[email hidden]... > Well you say wasted while others are looking forward to it. > I can understand that, but why not make other non-nascar games with the same engine. Its a sure money spinner and its what the majority of the non-US world wants :) Ash

I think the entire project is being cancelled as they move on to new things is why. "Ashley McConnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apjfon$ole$[email hidden]...

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> > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:wfbv9.162200$[email hidden]... > > Well you say wasted while others are looking forward to it. > > > > I can understand that, but why not make other non-nascar games with the

same > engine. Its a sure money spinner and its what the majority of the non-US > world wants :) > > Ash > >

"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Sjbv9.162213$[email hidden]... > I think the entire project is being cancelled as they move on to newthings > is why. >Hi Schooner Yeah, but why cancel when you have the BEST sim-engine available. Makes no sense to me, even adding new models / physics *data* without changing a line of code (with the exception of perhaps some localised rules), it shouldnt take too long and will surely make a packet. Ash PS. Dont get angry with me, just would be nice to see papy do a different racing genre :)

Not angry with you, no worries :) I think they are switching to console market. As I have stated before the income generated from these sim titles just isn't there. Sure they could make another racing series based on this code but they probably end up making more with an arcade model for consoles. "Ashley McConnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apjgns$p9p$[email hidden]...

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> > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Sjbv9.162213$[email hidden]... > > I think the entire project is being cancelled as they move on to new > things > > is why. > > > Hi Schooner > > Yeah, but why cancel when you have the BEST sim-engine available. Makes

no > sense to me, even adding new models / physics *data* without changing aline

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> of code (with the exception of perhaps some localised rules), it shouldnt > take too long and will surely make a packet. > > Ash > > PS. Dont get angry with me, just would be nice to see papy do a different > racing genre :) > >

John Simmons wrote: > I would have really liked to be getting a track editor too so we could > add tracks of our own... They seem adamantly opposed to this-I wonder why? Is there (still?) some legal barrier in their license agreement that prohibits an editor? So, failing that, is it possible for some real programming-savvy Papy fans to make a track editor shell? I.e. it 'dumbs down' the current esoteric and perilous method of making a track so that more normal :-) folks (like me!) can try their hand at it. Of course one of the pitfalls which even that wouldn't be able to overcome is weird AI behavior-watch what they do at the high-banked Indy track for example (they are constantly banging into the wall). Oh well I can still dream, and subsist on the tracks that ARE being made... John DiFool -- ============================== Shesmovedon ==============================

Read the interview. Note the lack of denials in re console games in Papy's future. Next, use reductive logic. They can't do another NASCAR title (EA's got an exclusive), they can't do IRL (Infogrames, I think, has that sewed up), and they're unlikely to do a road-racing game 'cuz they got burned by GPL. That doesn't leave much--Ratbag's got a lock on dirt-track racing. ARCA? ASA? Silver Crown? Featherlite Modifieds? Baja 1000? Too bad the powers-that-be don't have the guts or wisdom to realize what a market already exists for a GPL2.... (Little known fact: GPL--which by now has sold almost 200,000 copies--has a larger online community than Ghost Recon, which is considered a huge hit in PC marketing circles.) "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apjcpq$2062p$[email hidden]...

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> So...whats papy going to do AFTER n2003?? > dan > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:oK9v9.26185$[email hidden]... > > Oopsies, forgot the URL: > > > > http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=9950 > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > > > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that mean, > > > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR

Racing.

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> > Now > > > what, Rich? > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Qkcv9.26721$[email hidden]... > they got burned by GPL. and >GPL--which by now has sold almost 200,000 copies <double take> 200,000 copies? HUH? I was under the impression figures were something like 1/5th of that DOug

Even at 200,000 you realize that's tiny compared to typical console game sales right? "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apjkg2$24ck3$[email hidden]...

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> > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Qkcv9.26721$[email hidden]... > > they got burned by GPL. > > and > > >GPL--which by now has sold almost 200,000 copies > > <double take> > > 200,000 copies? HUH? I was under the impression figures were something > like 1/5th of that > > DOug > >

"Doug Ellison" said: > > "Steve Smith" <wrote: > >GPL--which by now has sold almost 200,000 copies > > 200,000 copies? HUH? I was under the impression figures were something > like 1/5th of that Perhaps they're paying Mr. Smith extra royalties - just to be nice? :-) -- ed_

IMHO, They'll either do something 'big' as in F1, touringcars, rally or Cart or they'll go for "fantasy racing" aka Need for speed/ Grand Turismo etc. -- ed_

Ed Solheim wrote:

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> > IMHO, > > They'll either do something 'big' as in F1, touringcars, rally or Cart > > or > > they'll go for "fantasy racing" aka Need for speed/ Grand Turismo etc.

Naaah, they're doing an AussieV8 sim, I'm sure they are.... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

"Rich Yasi - It's definitely a bittersweet feeling. It's always sad to see a successful relationship come to an end, but when it's all said and done I know we'll be able to hold our heads high, secure in the knowledge that over the last decade, wewere able to do more quality work with the NASCAR license than anyone else in the business. " I sure wish someone would stand up and say WHY this had to happen. If it was a simple matter of EA out-bidding Sierra, then so be it. SAY IT! And I do not like at all the hints that the next game will be for consoles. IMHO, you would never be able to implement a TRUE SIM the likes of NR2002/2003 on a console with it's limited resources. But it's entirely possible that Papyrus isn't at all interested in true simulations any more, and wants to go banging heads with all the other developers making arcade games. So be it. They'll never survive because others have been doing it a hell of a lot longer and have the process and marketing nailed down. Papyrus's thing is true simulations. That's what got them where they are today. If they want to be something else, then I hope they are ready to accept the consequences. I know we will have to :( I wonder if Nascar will even notice the dramatic loss of quality this move has brought them. Hell, it's ONLY their name on the license. I fear this no longer matters :( -Larry

John, Yawn? To the AI being fixed? The AI is the most broken thing in NR2002. It has GOT to be fixed. -Larry "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > 9) Revamped AI (again? yawn)

I think you are assuming Papy has their destiny in their own hands. Methinks it's more like Sierra is pushing them into console development. And I think they are going to fall flat on their face. This is not what Papy is all about. They are about real-life simulations (or at least as close as you can get). With console development they are diving into a snakes pit full of developers that have the development, marketing and everything else nailed down to a science. I stand by my statement that you can't do what Papy currently does on a Console. I just do not think the resources are there. -Larry "Ashley McConnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apjgns$p9p$[email hidden]... > Yeah, but why cancel when you have the BEST sim-engine available. Makesno > sense to me, even adding new models / physics *data* without changing aline > of code (with the exception of perhaps some localised rules), it shouldnt > take too long and will surely make a packet. > > Ash >

Well I suspect under EA they will sell millions more copies to the masses and that is all NASCAR is concerned with. They want to get millions of kids playing it on the console because they are the ones that will buy the merchandise and go to races in a few years. I hate this as much as anyone but the pure sim market is so tiny that its not worth the bother if your in this for profit. People needs to stop thinking that Papy is in business out of the kindness of their hearts and with a desire to make the best sims available to the hard core people like us no matter the cost. "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0udv9.41117$[email hidden]... > "Rich Yasi - It's definitely a bittersweet feeling. It's always sad to seea > successful relationship come to an end, but when it's all said and done I > know we'll be able to hold our heads high, secure in the knowledge thatover > the last decade, wewere able to do more quality work with the NASCARlicense > than anyone else in the business. " > > I sure wish someone would stand up and say WHY this had to happen. If it > was a simple matter of EA out-bidding Sierra, then so be it. SAY IT! > > And I do not like at all the hints that the next game will be forconsoles.

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> IMHO, you would never be able to implement a TRUE SIM the likes of > NR2002/2003 on a console with it's limited resources. > > But it's entirely possible that Papyrus isn't at all interested in true > simulations any more, and wants to go banging heads with all the other > developers making arcade games. So be it. They'll never survive because > others have been doing it a hell of a lot longer and have the process and > marketing nailed down. > > Papyrus's thing is true simulations. That's what got them where they are > today. If they want to be something else, then I hope they are ready to > accept the consequences. > > I know we will have to :( > > I wonder if Nascar will even notice the dramatic loss of quality this move > has brought them. Hell, it's ONLY their name on the license. I fear this > no longer matters :( > > -Larry > >

I guess it's quantity vs. quality now. Historically, not many have been successful at that conversion. -Larry "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%Gdv9.162270$[email hidden]... > Well I suspect under EA they will sell millions more copies to the masses > and that is all NASCAR is concerned with. They want to get millions ofkids

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> playing it on the console because they are the ones that will buy the > merchandise and go to races in a few years. > > I hate this as much as anyone but the pure sim market is so tiny that its > not worth the bother if your in this for profit. > > People needs to stop thinking that Papy is in business out of the kindness > of their hearts and with a desire to make the best sims available to the > hard core people like us no matter the cost. > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:0udv9.41117$[email hidden]... > > "Rich Yasi - It's definitely a bittersweet feeling. It's always sad to

see > a > > successful relationship come to an end, but when it's all said and doneI

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> > know we'll be able to hold our heads high, secure in the knowledge that > over > > the last decade, wewere able to do more quality work with the NASCAR > license > > than anyone else in the business. " > > > > I sure wish someone would stand up and say WHY this had to happen. If

it

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> > was a simple matter of EA out-bidding Sierra, then so be it. SAY IT! > > > > And I do not like at all the hints that the next game will be for > consoles. > > IMHO, you would never be able to implement a TRUE SIM the likes of > > NR2002/2003 on a console with it's limited resources. > > > > But it's entirely possible that Papyrus isn't at all interested in true > > simulations any more, and wants to go banging heads with all the other > > developers making arcade games. So be it. They'll never survive

because > > others have been doing it a hell of a lot longer and have the processand > > marketing nailed down. > > > > Papyrus's thing is true simulations. That's what got them where theyare > > today. If they want to be something else, then I hope they are ready to > > accept the consequences. > > > > I know we will have to :( > > > > I wonder if Nascar will even notice the dramatic loss of quality thismove > > has brought them. Hell, it's ONLY their name on the license. I fearthis

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> > no longer matters :( > > > > -Larry > > > > > >

"Larry" wrote... > <snip> > I wonder if Nascar will even notice the dramatic loss > of quality this move has brought them. Hell, it's > ONLY their name on the license. I fear this no longer > matters :( I'm sure they haven't a clue, which is the root of the problem. If racing series insisted on being represented by a proper sim, there wouldn't be this endless line of dross. Not saying I'd include EA's efforts in that statement, but I'm sure you know the sort of title I'm aiming at. Otherwise, agree completely. Almost none of Papyrus' current userbase will migrate to the console market with them, IMO. Like I said before though... I'm perfectly happy to continue playing GPL and NR2002/NR2003 until someone steps up to fill the gap. Jan. =---

Larry wrote: > Yawn? To the AI being fixed? > > The AI is the most broken thing in NR2002. It has GOT to be fixed. AI's ?? Last time I saw them was back in the N2 days.... - while waiting for TEN to open :-) I'd much rather prefer they spendt time on a track editor! -- ed_

"Schooner" wrote... > <snip> > People needs to stop thinking that Papy is in business > out of the kindness of their hearts and with a desire > to make the best sims available to the hard core people > like us no matter the cost. True... however, I think it's quite impossible to do a job like programming "just for the money". I seriously doubt one would last a year without one's heart being in it. Jan. =---

Hehe its a job like any other. The days of getting paid to program for fun are over after .com busted. Although I enjoy programming I do it for a living and it is just another job. "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:K6ev9.183066$[email hidden]...

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> "Schooner" wrote... > > <snip> > > People needs to stop thinking that Papy is in business > > out of the kindness of their hearts and with a desire > > to make the best sims available to the hard core people > > like us no matter the cost. > > True... however, I think it's quite impossible to do a job like

programming > "just for the money". I seriously doubt one would last a year withoutone's > heart being in it. > > Jan. > =--- > >

"Schooner" wrote... > Hehe its a job like any other. The days of getting paid > to program for fun are over after .com busted. > Although I enjoy programming I do it for a living and it > is just another job. So you think you could, day in - day out, program a product you don't believe in, that you think is wrong and keep at it indefinately, just 'cos it pays the bills? Jan. =---

"that you think is wrong" ??? Wrong in what sense that it is not a program I would buy? Then yes. I have worked on a number of larger scale database systems and I can't say that I would want or need them myself but they have a purpose. You confusing art with work I believe. There are projects that are fun to be on and those that need to be done that just pay the bills. Very few people get to work on the "fun" stuff when developing software. As for paying the bills if that is what it takes then yes. Do you see a lot of jobs being posted for people to work on fun projects that they believe in? Not really. "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sHev9.183135$[email hidden]...

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> "Schooner" wrote... > > Hehe its a job like any other. The days of getting paid > > to program for fun are over after .com busted. > > Although I enjoy programming I do it for a living and it > > is just another job. > > So you think you could, day in - day out, program a product you don't > believe in, that you think is wrong and keep at it indefinately, just 'cos > it pays the bills? > > Jan. > =--- > >

Papyrus once was like this, before Sierra... "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%Gdv9.162270$[email hidden]... > People needs to stop thinking that Papy is in business out of the kindness > of their hearts and with a desire to make the best sims available to the > hard core people like us no matter the cost.

I agree but they are no more. Like I said, if the sole purpose is going to be turning profit then it won't be from the hard core sim market. Do I agree with this no, but its a fact of life. Companies like Sierra are not in business for the great good of the sim community. Is it wrong for them to be this way? No more so than Ford, GM, Coke, Sony etc trying to make the largest profit they can. "TDRacin�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2Qev9.36768$[email hidden]...

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> Papyrus once was like this, before Sierra... > > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%Gdv9.162270$[email hidden]... > > > People needs to stop thinking that Papy is in business out of the

kindness > > of their hearts and with a desire to make the best sims available to the > > hard core people like us no matter the cost. > > >

"Schooner" wrote... > "that you think is wrong" ??? > > Wrong in what sense that it is not a program I would buy? Then yes. > I have worked on a number of larger scale database systems and I can't say > that I would want or need them myself but they have a purpose. You > confusing art with work I believe. There are projects that are fun to beon > and those that need to be done that just pay the bills. Very few peopleget > to work on the "fun" stuff when developing software. > > As for paying the bills if that is what it takes then yes. Do you see alot

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> of jobs being posted for people to work on fun projects that they believe > in? Not really. > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:sHev9.183135$[email hidden]... > > "Schooner" wrote... > > > Hehe its a job like any other. The days of getting paid > > > to program for fun are over after .com busted. > > > Although I enjoy programming I do it for a living and it > > > is just another job. > > > > So you think you could, day in - day out, program a product you don't > > believe in, that you think is wrong and keep at it indefinately, just

'cos

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> > it pays the bills? > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > > > > >

Ya because that would sell to the console users ;) "DB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Maybe GPL II , 1970 for the playstation or Xbox is in order, with a > PC followup of course :) > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Qkcv9.26721$[email hidden]... > > Read the interview. Note the lack of denials in re console games in > Papy's > > future. Next, use reductive logic. They can't do another NASCAR title > > (EA's got an exclusive), they can't do IRL (Infogrames, I think, has

that > > sewed up), and they're unlikely to do a road-racing game 'cuz they got > > burned by GPL. That doesn't leave much--Ratbag's got a lock ondirt-track

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> > racing. ARCA? ASA? Silver Crown? Featherlite Modifieds? Baja 1000? > Too > > bad the powers-that-be don't have the guts or wisdom to realize what a > > market already exists for a GPL2.... (Little known fact: GPL--which by > now > > has sold almost 200,000 copies--has a larger online community than Ghost > > Recon, which is considered a huge hit in PC marketing circles.) > > > > "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:apjcpq$2062p$[email hidden]... > > > So...whats papy going to do AFTER n2003?? > > > dan > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:oK9v9.26185$[email hidden]... > > > > Oopsies, forgot the URL: > > > > > > > > http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=9950 > > > > > > > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > > > > > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that > mean, > > > > > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR > > Racing. > > > > Now > > > > > what, Rich? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Oops... hit "send" instead of "save". My bad. I am going to rephrase my question, but I need to think about it first as it appears I'm not getting my meaning across. Anyhow... to be continued. Jan. =--- "Jan Verschueren" wrote... > > <nothing as of yet>

:) My point is that we all can't work on the fun projects. There is real work that needs to be done as well and companies want to make money. "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Cgfv9.183211$[email hidden]... > Oops... hit "send" instead of "save". My bad. > > I am going to rephrase my question, but I need to think about it first asit

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> appears I'm not getting my meaning across. > > Anyhow... to be continued. > > Jan. > =--- > > "Jan Verschueren" wrote... > > > > <nothing as of yet> > >

The thing you are missing here is the amount of money EA dumps into Nascar, besides just paying for the rights. They sponser races, contingency sponser ships etc... Nascar likes to see their involvement in the sport. Papy on the other hand basically never was in a position to throw that kind of money around. While EA's titles lack the depth, that the papy sims have, they are solid enough for the mass market, which at the end of the day is were the money is. Sure it sucks to see happen, but it's not really that surprising. Jay Taylor

Maybe GPL II , 1970 for the playstation or Xbox is in order, with a PC followup of course :) "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Qkcv9.26721$[email hidden]... > Read the interview. Note the lack of denials in re console games inPapy's > future. Next, use reductive logic. They can't do another NASCAR title > (EA's got an exclusive), they can't do IRL (Infogrames, I think, has that > sewed up), and they're unlikely to do a road-racing game 'cuz they got > burned by GPL. That doesn't leave much--Ratbag's got a lock on dirt-track > racing. ARCA? ASA? Silver Crown? Featherlite Modifieds? Baja 1000?Too > bad the powers-that-be don't have the guts or wisdom to realize what a > market already exists for a GPL2.... (Little known fact: GPL--which bynow

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> has sold almost 200,000 copies--has a larger online community than Ghost > Recon, which is considered a huge hit in PC marketing circles.) > > "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:apjcpq$2062p$[email hidden]... > > So...whats papy going to do AFTER n2003?? > > dan > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:oK9v9.26185$[email hidden]... > > > Oopsies, forgot the URL: > > > > > > http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=9950 > > > > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > > > > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that

mean,

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> > > > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR > Racing. > > > Now > > > > what, Rich? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"TDRacin�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2Qev9.36768$[email hidden]...

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> Papyrus once was like this, before Sierra... > > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%Gdv9.162270$[email hidden]... > > > People needs to stop thinking that Papy is in business out of the kindness > > of their hearts and with a desire to make the best sims available to the > > hard core people like us no matter the cost.

No offense to the hard working individuals still at Papyrus - but who is still there? Dave Kaemmer is gone, correct? How about Randy Cassidy? - Dave

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:31:21 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote: >5) Solar effects (lens flare & sun glare) - yawn Yawn? Glare is one of the biggest challenges stock car drivers face at many tracks. I'm pretty psyched about this game. Looks like they're really going for broke and adding as many new features as they can. I only hope that it's not a bug infested nightmare, altho Papy is historically quick to release patches. Jason

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:26:24 GMT, "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I stand by my statement that you can't do what Papy currently does on a >Console. I just do not think the resources are there. Papyrus has not stated anywhere that they are no longer developing for the PC. They've hinted that plain "jump in a car and drive" racing simulations don't have a bright future, but they also haven't said that the next game wouldn't be a racing sim. Based on the information that has been released so far, my best guess as to the next Papyrus product would be that it will be a multi-platform (PC, PS2, Xbox) racing simulation with an extensive plot-driven career mode, or a plot-driven non-racing game with a driving simulation aspect to it without the driving being the complete focus of the gameplay. I'm not sure that we can really assume much more than that. Jason

"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oEcv9.162247$[email hidden]... > Even at 200,000 you realize that's tiny compared to typical console game > sales right? Yup. I was still under the impression that GPL was a number of tens of thousands - certainly not knocking on a quarter of a million!! If there's 200,000 copies of GPL out there - either 190,000 of them dont have access to the internet - or the online community is too scarey :D Doug

I was thinking the same thing. -Larry "TDRacin�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2Qev9.36768$[email hidden]...

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> Papyrus once was like this, before Sierra... > > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%Gdv9.162270$[email hidden]... > > > People needs to stop thinking that Papy is in business out of the

kindness > > of their hearts and with a desire to make the best sims available to the > > hard core people like us no matter the cost. > > >

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:31:53 -0500, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Don't you know that a future computer auto sim is of such incredible >importance that it has to be kept top secret? The earth could explode if >this information slips out too early. Consider how people were freaking out about the GPL 72 rumors being false not to mention the whole West Bros fiasco, I'm not surprised Papy is tighted lipped about their upcoming games. Personally, I'd rather wait for a press release after the game has been slated for definite release than read about it in an interview 2 years before it ships. Jason

There are some folks on the John DiFool <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> John Simmons wrote: > > > I would have really liked to be getting a track editor too so we could > > add tracks of our own... > > So, failing that, is it possible for some real programming-savvy > Papy fans to make a track editor shell? I.e. it 'dumbs down' the > current esoteric and perilous method of making a track so that > more normal :-) folks (like me!) can try their hand at it.

There are some folks hanging about the Team Lightspeed editing forum that are working toward that very goal. The only good thing about NR2003 being the last iteration is that finally we will have a stable platform upon which mods can be built. Nobody felt like committing lots of time to a product that was going to be obsolete within one year (ie NR2004... NR2005... etc). > Of course > one of the pitfalls which even that wouldn't be able to overcome > is weird AI behavior-watch what they do at the high-banked Indy > track for example (they are constantly banging into the wall). Oh > well I can still dream, and subsist on the tracks that ARE being made... Unless "revamped AI" means Papy totally rewrote it, I am afraid you are correct. cheers, Gerald, who *still* holds out hope for NASCAR Legends '85.

In article <Rvdv9.41146$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> John, > > Yawn? To the AI being fixed? > > The AI is the most broken thing in NR2002. It has GOT to be fixed. > > -Larry > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > 9) Revamped AI (again? yawn) > > >

Cecause when I race to race, I race online. Offline holds no appeal for me other than practice. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden].. > Naaah, they're doing an AussieV8 sim, I'm sure they are.... Now that would be great, but hey, whats that outside my window? Oh just a pig with wings......:o) Steve

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:31:21 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >5) Solar effects (lens flare & sun glare) - yawn > > Yawn? Glare is one of the biggest challenges stock car drivers face > at many tracks. > > I'm pretty psyched about this game. Looks like they're really going > for broke and adding as many new features as they can. I only hope > that it's not a bug infested nightmare, altho Papy is historically > quick to release patches. > > Jason >

I think they would have been better off 1) making sure the damage model actually modeled damage on the cars beyond just wrinkling the sheet metal 2) add the effects of brake fade 3) random acts of goofiness on the part of the pit crew (leaving the catch can atached to the car, or letting a tire roll across pit road) 4) allow debris/oil/water to affect the car if you hit it/run over it. 5) improved the handling of cars files for online races Of course, that kind of stuff wasn't mentioned and that certainly doesn't mean they haven't added some of that stuff, but it also doesn't give me warm and fuzzies that they've possibly adrressed any of it either. Don't get me wrong, I'm gonna be right there the day it appears on shelves just like everyone else here, but I'm sure none of us are gonna be happy with what they did/didn't fix/include/add/delete. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Steve Whitty wrote:

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> > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden].. > > > Naaah, they're doing an AussieV8 sim, I'm sure they are.... > > Now that would be great, but hey, whats that outside my window? Oh just a > pig with wings......:o)

Uh huh, that's the problem with some people, they just don't recognize a good thing when they see it... http://thenorwaypits.com/temp/94bath.wmv Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

>"Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote > 200,000 copies? HUH? I was under the impression figures were something > like 1/5th of that No, GPL sold about that much (in various forms, repackaging, mags, etc..). I'm dead serious here. To say GPL was a disapointement is to view the situation only on a corporate $$$$$$$ "I need money right now" vision of Sierra. Shame on them. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote > I sure wish someone would stand up and say WHY this had to happen. If it > was a simple matter of EA out-bidding Sierra, then so be it. SAY IT! Papyrus never played that game Larry. They were always a very clean PR company. I don't remember anybody at Papy getting some heat because of something they said in interviews or press releases. Perhaps only N3 not having the GPL game engine (after all those early watglen/loudon pictures that showed an advanced physics model). -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote > So you think you could, day in - day out, program a product you don't > believe in, that you think is wrong and keep at it indefinately, just 'cos > it pays the bills? Hey you just referred to "anybody working at Microsoft" ;-D -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:31:53 -0500, "David G Fisher" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Don't you know that a future computer auto sim is of such incredible > >importance that it has to be kept top secret? The earth could explode if > >this information slips out too early. > > Consider how people were freaking out about the GPL 72 rumors being > false not to mention the whole West Bros fiasco, I'm not surprised > Papy is tighted lipped about their upcoming games. Personally, I'd > rather wait for a press release after the game has been slated for > definite release than read about it in an interview 2 years before it > ships. > > Jason

How many people on htis planet really were freaking out? I bet it wasn't actually all that many. :-) Those were rumours created by fans, not the company so they are irrelevant anyway. The West Brothers are two guys who haven't done anything yet, not an establised company. Papyrus knows what they are doing next. It's silly that they act like a little computer sim is crucial to world security. With them and some other developers, the secrecy thing goes beyond ridiculous. These are just GAMES played by kids and grown ups for entertainment. David G Fisher

I have to say Aussie V8s built on the Papy engine would be pretty nice. Be a good sim to transition many of us hard code NASCAR types to the road courses without having to make the switch to open wheel. "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Steve Whitty wrote: > > > > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden].. > > > > > Naaah, they're doing an AussieV8 sim, I'm sure they are.... > > > > Now that would be great, but hey, whats that outside my window? Oh just

a

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> > pig with wings......:o) > > Uh huh, that's the problem with some people, they just don't recognize a > good thing when they see it... > > http://thenorwaypits.com/temp/94bath.wmv > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Schooner wrote: > > I have to say Aussie V8s built on the Papy engine would be pretty nice. Be > a good sim to transition many of us hard code NASCAR types to the road > courses without having to make the switch to open wheel. Exactly, and you can still keep the GM vs FORD war going, no Mopars of course but they are crappy cars anyways....:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Seems EA is doing ok for themselves. Like I said the money is in the console market: http://ps2.ign.com/articles/375/375330p1.html "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sbjv9.3420$[email hidden]...

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> >"Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote > > 200,000 copies? HUH? I was under the impression figures were something > > like 1/5th of that > > > No, GPL sold about that much (in various forms, repackaging, mags, etc..). > I'm dead serious here. To say GPL was a disapointement is to view the > situation only on a corporate $$$$$$$ "I need money right now" vision of > Sierra. Shame on them. > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <oK9v9.26185$[email hidden]>, ssmith12 > @rochester.rr.com says... > > Oopsies, forgot the URL: > > > > http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=9950 > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > > > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that mean, > > > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR

Racing.

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> > Now > > > what, Rich? > > > > > In a nutshell... > > 1) Four different car models for the different manufacturers. (I wanted > this) > 5) Solar effects (lens flare & sun glare) - yawn > 6) Animated flags, jumbotrons, & infield objects - yawn > 7) Accumulation of dirt/oil on windshield

These are kind of funny as they've been around in sims for years. > 8) Bumps in track surface modeled About time too. > 12) Pit stop frequency setting for shorter races (I wanted this) Is this like accelerated tire wear and fuel consumption? If it is, then this is funny too because this has been around forever. > I would have really liked to be getting a track editor too so we could > add tracks of our own... Can't see why they wouldn't release the track editor. You'd think someone might even do it *by accident*. David G Fisher

Just to put the GPL figures in perspective: Gran Turismo 2 for the PS sold 1,155,469 copies in the US along in 2000 http://www.the-magicbox.com/Chart-BestSellUS.htm#BestSelling00 "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sbjv9.3420$[email hidden]...

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> >"Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote > > 200,000 copies? HUH? I was under the impression figures were something > > like 1/5th of that > > > No, GPL sold about that much (in various forms, repackaging, mags, etc..). > I'm dead serious here. To say GPL was a disapointement is to view the > situation only on a corporate $$$$$$$ "I need money right now" vision of > Sierra. Shame on them. > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

Ok put me down for a copy :) But it needs to support good online play. Maybe, just maybe they will make NR2003 modifiable enough to give all of us what we want. Please Papy :-) "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Schooner wrote: > > > > I have to say Aussie V8s built on the Papy engine would be pretty nice.Be

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> > a good sim to transition many of us hard code NASCAR types to the road > > courses without having to make the switch to open wheel. > > Exactly, and you can still keep the GM vs FORD war going, no Mopars of > course but they are crappy cars anyways....:-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LDjv9.162389$[email hidden]... > Seems EA is doing ok for themselves. Like I said the money is in the > console market: > http://ps2.ign.com/articles/375/375330p1.html > I'd suggest 'The Sims' is probably responsible for half that revenue. Doug

It's alot of it as is MOHAA however the console market is alot of it was well. Their sports titles probably are near the same or more than The Sims. "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WSjv9.173$dz2.24022@stones...

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> > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:LDjv9.162389$[email hidden]... > > Seems EA is doing ok for themselves. Like I said the money is in the > > console market: > > http://ps2.ign.com/articles/375/375330p1.html > > > > I'd suggest 'The Sims' is probably responsible for half that revenue. > > Doug > >

I would settle for seeing them open it up to mods a little more. If this is going to be the last one, then why not? It will undoubtedly acquire the kind of long term cult following that GPL has, so it would be nice to have some editing ability so that users can keep generating fresh content for it. "Ashley McConnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apjgns$p9p$[email hidden]... > Hi Schooner > > Yeah, but why cancel when you have the BEST sim-engine available.Makes no > sense to me, even adding new models / physics *data* without changinga line > of code (with the exception of perhaps some localised rules), itshouldnt > take too long and will surely make a packet. > > Ash > > PS. Dont get angry with me, just would be nice to see papy do adifferent > racing genre :) > >

Steve, Where do you get your numbers for the size of the GPL online community? Surely you aren't assuming that all 200,000 copies are being used online? I doubt that very much. And as far as size relative to Ghost Recon, all PC shooters are dwarfed by the size of the Half-Life community, which will typically be over 100,000 players at any point in time (see http://www.gamespy.com/stats/ ). And Half-Life in turn is dwarfed (no pun intended) by the average MMORPG. Seriously, I like GPL as much as the next guy, but I don't really think the community is very big or significant on a scale relative to other PC games. And that's why GPL2 is unlikely to ever get made. "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Qkcv9.26721$[email hidden]... > Read the interview. Note the lack of denials in re console games inPapy's > future. Next, use reductive logic. They can't do another NASCARtitle > (EA's got an exclusive), they can't do IRL (Infogrames, I think, hasthat > sewed up), and they're unlikely to do a road-racing game 'cuz they got > burned by GPL. That doesn't leave much--Ratbag's got a lock ondirt-track > racing. ARCA? ASA? Silver Crown? Featherlite Modifieds? Baja1000? Too > bad the powers-that-be don't have the guts or wisdom to realize what a > market already exists for a GPL2.... (Little known fact: GPL--whichby now > has sold almost 200,000 copies--has a larger online community thanGhost

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> Recon, which is considered a huge hit in PC marketing circles.) > > "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:apjcpq$2062p$[email hidden]... > > So...whats papy going to do AFTER n2003?? > > dan > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:oK9v9.26185$[email hidden]... > > > Oopsies, forgot the URL: > > > > > > http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=9950 > > > > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > > > > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that

mean,

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> > > > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR > Racing. > > > Now > > > > what, Rich? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Nascar could care less about these sims Larry. Wouldn't be surprised if most of the management barely knows they exist. They've got millions rolling in from other sources; this isn't worth even a look for them. John "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0udv9.41117$[email hidden]... > "Rich Yasi - It's definitely a bittersweet feeling. It's always sad to seea > successful relationship come to an end, but when it's all said and done I > know we'll be able to hold our heads high, secure in the knowledge thatover > the last decade, wewere able to do more quality work with the NASCARlicense > than anyone else in the business. " > > I sure wish someone would stand up and say WHY this had to happen. If it > was a simple matter of EA out-bidding Sierra, then so be it. SAY IT! > > And I do not like at all the hints that the next game will be forconsoles.

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> IMHO, you would never be able to implement a TRUE SIM the likes of > NR2002/2003 on a console with it's limited resources. > > But it's entirely possible that Papyrus isn't at all interested in true > simulations any more, and wants to go banging heads with all the other > developers making arcade games. So be it. They'll never survive because > others have been doing it a hell of a lot longer and have the process and > marketing nailed down. > > Papyrus's thing is true simulations. That's what got them where they are > today. If they want to be something else, then I hope they are ready to > accept the consequences. > > I know we will have to :( > > I wonder if Nascar will even notice the dramatic loss of quality this move > has brought them. Hell, it's ONLY their name on the license. I fear this > no longer matters :( > > -Larry > >

Yep. It's a business, not a hobby. Purpose of a business is to make money, period. John "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rifv9.162287$[email hidden]... > :) > > My point is that we all can't work on the fun projects. There is realwork

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> that needs to be done as well and companies want to make money. > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Cgfv9.183211$[email hidden]... > > Oops... hit "send" instead of "save". My bad. > > > > I am going to rephrase my question, but I need to think about it first

as

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> it > > appears I'm not getting my meaning across. > > > > Anyhow... to be continued. > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > > > "Jan Verschueren" wrote... > > > > > > <nothing as of yet> > > > > > >

But if the next generation of Papy products includes the needs for any type licensing, then you would want to keep quiet until everything is lined up, or else you may have EA running out and trying to prevent the next Papy titles. If it wasn't for Papy, no one would know just how bad the EA games are...Just a thought. Glen Pittman "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:31:53 -0500, "David G Fisher" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Don't you know that a future computer auto sim is of such incredible > > >importance that it has to be kept top secret? The earth could explode

if

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> > >this information slips out too early. > > > > Consider how people were freaking out about the GPL 72 rumors being > > false not to mention the whole West Bros fiasco, I'm not surprised > > Papy is tighted lipped about their upcoming games. Personally, I'd > > rather wait for a press release after the game has been slated for > > definite release than read about it in an interview 2 years before it > > ships. > > > > Jason > > How many people on htis planet really were freaking out? I bet it wasn't > actually all that many. :-) Those were rumours created by fans, not the > company so they are irrelevant anyway. > > The West Brothers are two guys who haven't done anything yet, not an > establised company. > > Papyrus knows what they are doing next. It's silly that they act like a > little computer sim is crucial to world security. With them and some other > developers, the secrecy thing goes beyond ridiculous. > > These are just GAMES played by kids and grown ups for entertainment. > > David G Fisher > >

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<Qydv9.41194$[email hidden]>...

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> I think you are assuming Papy has their destiny in their own hands. > Methinks it's more like Sierra is pushing them into console development. > > And I think they are going to fall flat on their face. This is not what > Papy is all about. They are about real-life simulations (or at least as > close as you can get). With console development they are diving into a > snakes pit full of developers that have the development, marketing and > everything else nailed down to a science. >

Not to mention the fact that driving games on the consoles are prolific. It might well be a tight squeeze, the market is probably already saturated, with only a few titles (like Gran Turismo 3) sucking up most of the sales. > I stand by my statement that you can't do what Papy currently does on a > Console. I just do not think the resources are there. > > Are you rec.autos.simulators fanboys on another planet, or what? Haven't you heard of/played Gran Turismo 3? Consoles most certainly do have the resources to caclucate things like physics now days. Of course, PC's still have the graphical edge, but that's another matter. I think you all hold GPL up like some yardstick, and if the driving model isn't as difficult, well then, there must be something wrong with it. And if a game has driving aids, well, it's just an arcade game, even if you can turn them off.

>"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote > Just to put the GPL figures in perspective: > Gran Turismo 2 for the PS sold 1,155,469 copies in the US along in 2000 So? Titanic made 1.6 billion dollars worldwide, that doesn't mean it equated 10 times the quality of a movie that made 160million$ at the Box Office. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote > Surely you aren't assuming that all 200,000 copies are being used > online? Hmm he's talking about "copies sold". Is there something you don't understand in that for you to assume they are "used online" ?? :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Ed Solheim wrote:

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> IMHO, > > They'll either do something 'big' as in F1, touringcars, rally or Cart > > or > > they'll go for "fantasy racing" aka Need for speed/ Grand Turismo etc. > >

Heck I'd go for an all-out fantasy racing sim-give it a very solid physics engine, but within something truly out there-like Rush. That was a good game (in the arcades), despite too-easy tracks and that awful 'catch-up' feature. JD -- ============================== Fetch me the Pongmaster ==============================

Didn "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:v7mv9.3610$[email hidden]... > >"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Surely you aren't assuming that all 200,000 copies are being used > > online? > > Hmm he's talking about "copies sold". Is there something you don't > understand in that for you to assume they are "used online" ?? :) Proof! Proof! Show me proof of 200,000 copies sold or be quiet. I'm ymenard. Weren't they dumping copies of it for a few bucks on shelves even three years after it's release? Please. It was a flop. I'd love to know how many were returned too. David G Fisher

lol to the producer it sure the hell did. Hello, economics Farnk. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:H6mv9.3609$[email hidden]...

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> >"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Just to put the GPL figures in perspective: > > Gran Turismo 2 for the PS sold 1,155,469 copies in the US along in 2000 > > > So? Titanic made 1.6 billion dollars worldwide, that doesn't mean it > equated 10 times the quality of a movie that made 160million$ at the Box > Office. > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YRjv9.162412$[email hidden]... > Ok put me down for a copy :) > But it needs to support good online play. ..and support good offline play for us with dialup..hint.hint.... did someone say much, much better AI?

> Weren't they dumping copies of it for a few bucks on shelves even three > years after it's release? > > Please. It was a flop. I'd love to know how many were returned too. > > David G Fisher I 'm in awe that many are still in denial of that fact This subject has been beat to death. Now, lets forget about GPL for now and get back on topic.............. N2003. :)

tles. If it wasn't for Papy, no one would know just how bad the EA games > are...Just a thought. ah.........yes...... I believe its called setting a standard.

I'm not assuming anything, I am questioning what he is trying to imply. The sentence he wrote was: "GPL--which by now has sold almost 200,000 copies--has a larger online community than...". There is a strong implication there about the size of the online community, but no real facts, and that's why I asked him to clarify. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:v7mv9.3610$[email hidden]...

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> > Hmm he's talking about "copies sold". Is there something you don't > understand in that for you to assume they are "used online" ?? :) > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

They say much better AI each time a new title comes out. I don't know if it is any better, but if you want smart "AI", race online. If you have dialup, fix it. I raced for a long time with dialup when you weren't supposed to be able to. It is possible if you learn how to do it. "Jon T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apkunt$21v8$[email hidden]... > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:YRjv9.162412$[email hidden]...

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> > Ok put me down for a copy :) > > But it needs to support good online play. > > ..and support good offline play for us with dialup..hint.hint.... > did someone say much, much better AI? > >

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:46:02 -0500, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I would settle for seeing them open it up to mods a little more. If >this is going to be the last one, then why not? It will undoubtedly >acquire the kind of long term cult following that GPL has, so it would >be nice to have some editing ability so that users can keep generating >fresh content for it. N2002 is as open as GPL is. You can unpack dat files and throw things into the install directories and have the game recognize them. The AI is much more modifiable with the exception of the .lp files which should be fixable soon (as Goy as hinted - I'll hopefully be releasing my own set of "fast" and "qualify" setup AI with realistic pacing, bunching, drafting, and brake-zone padding distances in both real WC (i.e. what you see on TV) and average Joe (i.e. what you see online) flavors). I really wish that the guy who created new cars for GPL would release a tool or some information on doing it (I'm talking about entire new cars with car-specific handling, not new models for pre-existing cars or engine swapping type utilities). Alison Hine mentioned awhile ago that she had a virtual version of her Cobra made and it would be absolutely fantastic to get this sort of info for GPL or N2002/2003. I realize that there is a concern about online cheating (which is very easy to do in the open-ended ISI sims) but that sort of thing can be policed if handled properly. I also want to note something that pisses me off with the ISI clique. The game is very editable, which is awesome, but there's no documentation anywhere. Sure anyone with MAS Studio can import car/track models and textures, but good luck getting anyone on any of the F12k* mod forums to answer real questions about the nitty gritty stuff like .veh and .aiw files. The GPL community, IMHO, is much stronger in this regards. If you want to make a track, you can go to gplea.org and find out how. There are tutorials on editing everything in the game that has been edited. Nothing like this exists for the F12k series or I bet we'd have more tracks (hundreds more), fixes for the tracks that came with the game, dozens of mods, and all mods/tracks would likely be of higher quality if there were some real competition among designers to outdo each other. The drive to make each new track in GPL the absolute best one released is IMHO what keeps that sim fresh. Who would have imagined something as realistic as the Lime Rock circuits as recently as a year to a year and a half ago? That's the sort of thing that's possible when there is good documentation and a helpful community. GPL has gone through a few distinct phases... the "figuring stuff out" phase, the "omfg people are releasing new shit" phase, the "omfg people are releasing new shit that is actually of high-quality" phase and is now getting more entrenched in the "omfg people are releasing realistic shit that far surpasses the original game" phase. IMHO F1 200x modding is still stuck between the first two phases. There needs to be documentation so we can get past the "omfg a new track!!" everytime some low-quality SCGT conversion comes out and move onto the "omfg, I'd pay money for this track!!" phase. So far only Simbin with the GT 2002 mod and the heavily edited Superbike and GPL conversions seems to have the information and quality control to do that. Jason

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:23:04 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote: >I think they would have been better off > >1) making sure the damage model actually modeled damage on the cars >beyond just wrinkling the sheet metal I agree. Nascar Thunder's damage model is ugly, but it's also much more realistic in terms of the effects it has on the car performance. >2) add the effects of brake fade No question. Would make Bristol/Martinsville races much better, that's for sure. Then again, I don't brake unless I can prove that I'm faster that way. =) >3) random acts of goofiness on the part of the pit crew (leaving the >catch can atached to the car, or letting a tire roll across pit road) Hehehe. =) I'd probably rather have the glare, but that would rock too. >4) allow debris/oil/water to affect the car if you hit it/run over it. I wonder if this may be part of the new track model? Rich says the physics engine is taking a huge leap, and I thought I read in an earlier interview that debris would play a factor now. >5) improved the handling of cars files for online races An FTP client built into the multiplayer client would be handy for league races. I definitely do not want to have to download everyone's car everytime I play a pickup race, tho. >Of course, that kind of stuff wasn't mentioned and that certainly >doesn't mean they haven't added some of that stuff, but it also doesn't >give me warm and fuzzies that they've possibly adrressed any of it >either. Agreed, altho I swear to god I thought I read something about debris/oil being added. >Don't get me wrong, I'm gonna be right there the day it appears on >shelves just like everyone else here, but I'm sure none of us are gonna >be happy with what they did/didn't fix/include/add/delete. True. I've been whining for DNS for human players since Nascar 1 (glad they added it for the AI finally) among many other things. Still, every leap they take in the sim is huge since it's been a good 6 years since anyone has come close to their simulations in terms of realism and multiplayer capability (I could care less about the latter, but the former is #1 on my list). You've got to admit that being blinded driving into turn 1 at Atlanta on a sunny day sounds fun. =) Jason

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:23:32 -0500, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> 8) Bumps in track surface modeled > >About time too. On the bright side, Papy waited until they could produce a physics engine capable of running on PC hardware that could do proper bump modelling. As much fun as I have getting 3 feet airborne over little bumps in the F12k2 and Thunder tracks, I'd rather they were smooth until the High Frequency Physics are replaced by Super High Frequency Physics. The Papy games do a good job of modelling the big bumps, imho, especially since GPL. Tell me you haven't shit your pants on worn tires taking the high line out of 4 at the superspeedways with a loose setup. That bump coming out of 4 at Daytona especially has caused me way too much grief racing 3-wide with the AI. >Is this like accelerated tire wear and fuel consumption? If it is, then this >is funny too because this has been around forever. I doubt they would do accelerated tire wear and fuel consumption since the aim of the game is realism, and you either model tire wear correctly or you don't. I read the above as meaning that leagues could enforce minimum pitstop rules during races like they have during the All-Star races. >Can't see why they wouldn't release the track editor. You'd think someone >might even do it *by accident*. Maybe there isn't one? I remember reading in interviews from the pre-GPL era that the track editing tools that they use could never be released to the public because of the way they work. Programmers and programmer/artists write tools that allow them to get the job done in the most efficient way possible. That doesn't usually translate well into a commercial software environment. That said, if Papyrus did take an extra 6 months or something and wrote a professional editor, one like Neverwinter Nights or Morrowind with lots of documentation, one that could actually be used to design the game (again, a'la NWN or MW), I would applaud. I'd favor a car editor/manager more than a track editor tho. Jason

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:01:33 -0700, "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Yep. It's a business, not a hobby. Purpose of a business is to make >money, period. It's a business and a hobby. For some it's both, for most it's one or the other. In an ideal world it's certainly both. The same thing can be said about any creative endeavor. Music is a perfect example of this, if you've had any experiences with the industry (as an artist or a fan). Jason

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:00:52 -0500, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Papyrus knows what they are doing next. It's silly that they act like a >little computer sim is crucial to world security. With them and some other >developers, the secrecy thing goes beyond ridiculous. But ISI might copy their ideas and outdo them!! Haha. Sorry, crack myself up sometimes. Seriously, tho, in the interview posted earlier Rich seemed to indicate that they didn't know what they were doing next... Jason

That is the point exactly...it's all licensing...assuming they actually have something real to work on. Marc "Glen Pittman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > But if the next generation of Papy products includes the needs for anytype > licensing, then you would want to keep quiet until everything is lined up, > or else you may have EA running out and trying to prevent the next Papy > titles. If it wasn't for Papy, no one would know just how bad the EAgames

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> are...Just a thought. > > Glen Pittman > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:31:53 -0500, "David G Fisher" > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >Don't you know that a future computer auto sim is of such incredible > > > >importance that it has to be kept top secret? The earth could explode > if > > > >this information slips out too early. > > > > > > Consider how people were freaking out about the GPL 72 rumors being > > > false not to mention the whole West Bros fiasco, I'm not surprised > > > Papy is tighted lipped about their upcoming games. Personally, I'd > > > rather wait for a press release after the game has been slated for > > > definite release than read about it in an interview 2 years before it > > > ships. > > > > > > Jason > > > > How many people on htis planet really were freaking out? I bet it wasn't > > actually all that many. :-) Those were rumours created by fans, not the > > company so they are irrelevant anyway. > > > > The West Brothers are two guys who haven't done anything yet, not an > > establised company. > > > > Papyrus knows what they are doing next. It's silly that they act like a > > little computer sim is crucial to world security. With them and some

other

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> > developers, the secrecy thing goes beyond ridiculous. > > > > These are just GAMES played by kids and grown ups for entertainment. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > >

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:52:43 -0500, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Please. It was a flop. I'd love to know how many were returned too. Depends on how you define flop. To Sierra I'd imagine anything that sells less than Half-Life is a flop. No one swoons over how well N2002 and N4 sold even though they were both top-sellers when they were released and for several weeks afterwards. Jason

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:01:33 -0700, "John Pancoast" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Yep. It's a business, not a hobby. Purpose of a business is to make > >money, period. > > It's a business and a hobby. For some it's both, for most it's one or > the other. In an ideal world it's certainly both. > > The same thing can be said about any creative endeavor. Music is a > perfect example of this, if you've had any experiences with the > industry (as an artist or a fan). > > Jason

That's fine, but when it comes time to pay the bills, no CEO on the planet is going to have sympathy(and rightly so)for a starving artist and his unrealistic dreams :) John

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:34:55 -0500, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'm not assuming anything, I am questioning what he is trying to imply. >The sentence he wrote was: "GPL--which by now has sold almost 200,000 >copies--has a larger online community than...". There is a strong >implication there about the size of the online community, but no real >facts, and that's why I asked him to clarify. I don't think he was referring to VROC, which still has a pretty good crowd. Think about the sheer number of web resources for GPL. It dwarfs any game I can think of in terms of organization and the size is second to none in the racing sim community. I think Steve was referring primarily to how huge the online community is as far as support and enthusiasm for the game are concerned. Jason

"Doug Ellison" said: > I was still under the impression that GPL was a number of tens of > thousands - certainly not knocking on a quarter of a million!! If there's > 200,000 copies of GPL out there - either 190,000 of them dont have accessto > the internet - or the online community is too scarey :D Well... it is over 4 years old Doug.... a lot of us has actually moved on to newer pastuers (sp?) -- ed_

Hi David, IMHO there's more than just economics to look at when defining success. GPL has become a classic, and its lifecycle of 5 years is an eternity for a computer racing game. Especially considering how very much alive it still is, looking at its driver and add-on creation base. I can't think of any other racing game achieving something similar, and its impact on sim racing and online racing has been immense. GPL has revolutionized car physics (which continue to live in N4/N2002/N2003), it's revolutionised online racing (and is still arguably unequalled in that field except by its own kin also coming from Papyrus), and it's given its buyers a fun-bang-for-the-buck longevity by far exceeding that of any other contemporary racing game. GPL has become a classic, and there aren't many around like it. IMO GPL's been very successful, just not in terms of money. Achim "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Didn > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:v7mv9.3610$[email hidden]... > > >"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > Surely you aren't assuming that all 200,000 copies are being used > > > online? > > > > Hmm he's talking about "copies sold". Is there something you don't > > understand in that for you to assume they are "used online" ?? :) > > Proof! Proof! Show me proof of 200,000 copies sold or be quiet. > > I'm ymenard. > > Weren't they dumping copies of it for a few bucks on shelves even three > years after it's release? > > Please. It was a flop. I'd love to know how many were returned too. > > David G Fisher > > >

I have to respectfully disagree with you on a few points. :-) "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aplg4m$2l0u6$[email hidden]... > Hi David, > > IMHO there's more than just economics to look at when defining success. Yes, there is more than just economics to consider when defining success, but we are talking about sales right now and sales wise, it did poorly compared to other racing games. > GPL has become a classic, and its lifecycle of 5 years is an eternity fora > computer racing game. Especially considering how very much alive it still > is, looking at its driver and add-on creation base. I can't think of any > other racing game achieving something similar, MTM2 is actually older than GPL, and still has a larger online community than GPL with thousands of truck and track add ons. It actually has had two sequals in 4 X 4 Evo 1 and 2. >and its impact on sim racing > and online racing has been immense. > > GPL has revolutionized car physics (which continue to live in > N4/N2002/N2003), Not so sure about it revolutionizing car physics. Old debate. >it's revolutionised online racing (and is still arguably > unequalled in that field except by its own kin also coming from Papyrus), The NASCAR series did that before GPL ever came out because of the high numbr of cars they could handle. A number of arcade racers had excellent online racing before GPL, just not as high a number. > and it's given its buyers a fun-bang-for-the-buck longevity by farexceeding > that of any other contemporary racing game. This is where GPL fans lose me. A lot of racing sims have sequels. That's why I always stop playing one sim and move on to another in a series. Look at the various F1 series like Crammond's GP series, Ubi Soft's, ISI's, etc. If GPL had been successful, it would of had a sequel, and it's small fan base would of moved on to it. Then all this importance about GPL's longevity would never be able to be claimed as relevant. A sequel wouldn't of sold much better than the original GPL because historic auto sims aren't in demand. The GPL series would of been a sales flop compared to the modern F1 series from the other developers, and also compared to something like Magnetic Field's rally series of sims, and of course the Papyrus NASCAR series. I don't see how the other individual sims in each series should be seen as being less than GPL when their quality and success forced sequels to be made which moved the fan base on. I guarantee everyone in RASCAR moves on from N2002 to N2003 when it's released. Also, GPL is an exteme niche product (again, without a sequel) with no competitors, unlike modern F1 sims. Doesn't surprise me at all it would retain some fans, especially since they are older. Where else could a fan of historic auto sims have gone to these past few years? No competition until the West brothers produce something. > GPL has become a classic, and there aren't many around like it. IMO GPL's > been very successful, just not in terms of money. As long as there are people who enjoy it and it's a quality product, then that's all that really matters IMO. David G Fisher

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> Achim > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Didn > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:v7mv9.3610$[email hidden]... > > > >"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > > Surely you aren't assuming that all 200,000 copies are being used > > > > online? > > > > > > Hmm he's talking about "copies sold". Is there something you don't > > > understand in that for you to assume they are "used online" ?? :) > > > > Proof! Proof! Show me proof of 200,000 copies sold or be quiet. > > > > I'm ymenard. > > > > Weren't they dumping copies of it for a few bucks on shelves even three > > years after it's release? > > > > Please. It was a flop. I'd love to know how many were returned too. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > You've got to admit that being blinded driving into turn 1 at Atlanta > on a sunny day sounds fun. =) But are they gonna: 1) Allow us to turn that off? (Online racing is already hard enough to pull off without pissing off everyone else on the track.) 2) Allow server admins to force it on? (People with less capable systems will probably automatically be eliminated from alot of races if it is forced on due to graphics load.) 3) Have it also affect people that don't drive in-car (if it is forced on)? -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> > "Doug Ellison" said: > > > I was still under the impression that GPL was a number of tens of > > thousands - certainly not knocking on a quarter of a million!! If there's > > 200,000 copies of GPL out there - either 190,000 of them dont have access > to > > the internet - or the online community is too scarey :D > > Well... it is over 4 years old Doug.... a lot of us has actually moved on > to newer pastuers (sp?) >

I still fire it up once in a while. There's nothing better available - NR2002 and GPL. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Exactly. I didn't say anything about quality I said they made a lot of money. People need to separate the two concepts. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:H6mv9.3609$[email hidden]...

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> >"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Just to put the GPL figures in perspective: > > Gran Turismo 2 for the PS sold 1,155,469 copies in the US along in 2000 > > > So? Titanic made 1.6 billion dollars worldwide, that doesn't mean it > equated 10 times the quality of a movie that made 160million$ at the Box > Office. > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

At any given moment, log onto the ubi.com server (or The All-Seeing Eye) and count the number of online GR players. Then log onto VROC. Unless a major add-on has just been aded to GR (like IT), the numbers will often be remarkably similar. Also, you can judge the realtive sizes of the online communities (which has little or no relation to the total number of games sold) by the number of d/l's. Within 24 hours of its release, GPL Glance had 6500 d/l's. I can't find anything in the GR community (of which I am a frenetically active member) that rivals it. Online players are hard core; they drive sales. By most estimates, the GPL community numbers 10K-30K. That would translate into 10X retail sales. Nowhere near console-game numbers, but that's comparing apples and oranges. Console sales have to number in the hundreds of thousands to break even (even w/o the $7-per-game licensing fee to the platform owner); PC games can turn a profit on much smaller numbers. The last time I looked, PC games aren't going away. Yes, the sales of console games dwarf PC game sales, but just because McDonald's generates humungous numbers doesn't mean people aren't going to dine at The Four Seasons. OTOH, the boot-licking toadies at Siera show little or no inclination to point that out to their greenback-sucking masters. "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apkil9$1smuj$[email hidden]...

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> Steve, > > Where do you get your numbers for the size of the GPL online community? > Surely you aren't assuming that all 200,000 copies are being used > online? I doubt that very much. And as far as size relative to Ghost > Recon, all PC shooters are dwarfed by the size of the Half-Life > community, which will typically be over 100,000 players at any point in > time (see http://www.gamespy.com/stats/ ). And Half-Life in turn is > dwarfed (no pun intended) by the average MMORPG. Seriously, I like GPL > as much as the next guy, but I don't really think the community is very > big or significant on a scale relative to other PC games. And that's > why GPL2 is unlikely to ever get made. > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Qkcv9.26721$[email hidden]... > > Read the interview. Note the lack of denials in re console games in > Papy's > > future. Next, use reductive logic. They can't do another NASCAR > title > > (EA's got an exclusive), they can't do IRL (Infogrames, I think, has > that > > sewed up), and they're unlikely to do a road-racing game 'cuz they got > > burned by GPL. That doesn't leave much--Ratbag's got a lock on > dirt-track > > racing. ARCA? ASA? Silver Crown? Featherlite Modifieds? Baja > 1000? Too > > bad the powers-that-be don't have the guts or wisdom to realize what a > > market already exists for a GPL2.... (Little known fact: GPL--which > by now > > has sold almost 200,000 copies--has a larger online community than > Ghost > > Recon, which is considered a huge hit in PC marketing circles.) > > > > "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:apjcpq$2062p$[email hidden]... > > > So...whats papy going to do AFTER n2003?? > > > dan > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:oK9v9.26185$[email hidden]... > > > > Oopsies, forgot the URL: > > > > > > > > http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=9950 > > > > > > > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > > > > > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that > mean, > > > > > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR > > Racing. > > > > Now > > > > > what, Rich? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Hi Dave, agreed to what you say in your final sentence. And it isn't my intention to talk down other sims, or put Papy and GPL on a pedestal. I don't think btw that Steve was referring to economical success. I think he was referring to the size of a community. But everyone else talking about something entirely different has never prevented me from contributing what I thought should be contributed (often because I hadn't understood what everyone's talking about, but that's another issue ;-) Anyway, you've got a point when you say that GPL's still being played because there's no sequel. It's obviously somewhat questionable when I reply that I wonder how many other sims would still be played even if they hadn't had a sequel ;-) but my personal opinion is that GPL is fairly outstanding in this respect, with only very few other sims on par. I wouldn't have continued to play GP1 when ICR2 was released, and I wouldn't have continued to play ICR2 because of GP2 - a valid line of argument? Maybe if you read it as having been said tongue in cheek ;-) You're also right that MTM was great fun (my first online racing sim, actually), but I'm not saying that GPL is the one and only - I'm just saying it was a success because of the points I'm listing. That doesn't mean there are no other classics and all-time greats. Still, IMHO GPL is one out of a fairly few. As for the Nx series having online play, I think you'll agree that N2, like ICR2, didn't support online playing like GPL does. For all practical purposes it was modem-to-modem, except on Hawaii, which isn't the same degree of freedom and accessibility as GPL's online feature provides. GPL took online playing a fairly substantial step further by making it easy to use, by giving a lot more people the capability to race and host online, and also by dramatically increasing the quality of online playing on the at the time less than optimal connections and hardware. But I'd like to say again that this doesn't mean there is no other like it. It would IMHO just be wrong to say GPL was a failure - but that's of course my personal opinion. Achim "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I have to respectfully disagree with you on a few points. :-) > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aplg4m$2l0u6$[email hidden]... > > Hi David, > > > > IMHO there's more than just economics to look at when defining success. > > Yes, there is more than just economics to consider when defining success, > but we are talking about sales right now and sales wise, it did poorly > compared to other racing games. > > > GPL has become a classic, and its lifecycle of 5 years is an eternity

for > a > > computer racing game. Especially considering how very much alive itstill > > is, looking at its driver and add-on creation base. I can't think of any > > other racing game achieving something similar, > > MTM2 is actually older than GPL, and still has a larger online community > than GPL with thousands of truck and track add ons. It actually has hadtwo

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> sequals in 4 X 4 Evo 1 and 2. > > >and its impact on sim racing > > and online racing has been immense. > > > > GPL has revolutionized car physics (which continue to live in > > N4/N2002/N2003), > > Not so sure about it revolutionizing car physics. Old debate. > > >it's revolutionised online racing (and is still arguably > > unequalled in that field except by its own kin also coming from

Papyrus),

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> > The NASCAR series did that before GPL ever came out because of the high > numbr of cars they could handle. A number of arcade racers had excellent > online racing before GPL, just not as high a number. > > > and it's given its buyers a fun-bang-for-the-buck longevity by far > exceeding > > that of any other contemporary racing game. > > This is where GPL fans lose me. A lot of racing sims have sequels. That's > why I always stop playing one sim and move on to another in a series. Look > at the various F1 series like Crammond's GP series, Ubi Soft's, ISI's,

etc. > If GPL had been successful, it would of had a sequel, and it's small fan > base would of moved on to it. Then all this importance about GPL'slongevity > would never be able to be claimed as relevant. A sequel wouldn't of sold > much better than the original GPL because historic auto sims aren't in > demand. The GPL series would of been a sales flop compared to the modernF1 > series from the other developers, and also compared to something like > Magnetic Field's rally series of sims, and of course the Papyrus NASCAR > series. I don't see how the other individual sims in each series should be > seen as being less than GPL when their quality and success forced sequelsto > be made which moved the fan base on. I guarantee everyone in RASCAR moveson > from N2002 to N2003 when it's released. > > Also, GPL is an exteme niche product (again, without a sequel) with no > competitors, unlike modern F1 sims. Doesn't surprise me at all it would > retain some fans, especially since they are older. Where else could a fanof > historic auto sims have gone to these past few years? No competition until > the West brothers produce something. > > > GPL has become a classic, and there aren't many around like it. IMOGPL's

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> > been very successful, just not in terms of money. > > As long as there are people who enjoy it and it's a quality product, then > that's all that really matters IMO. > > David G Fisher > > > Achim

TEN was out long before GPL was. There still isn't a system today that can compare to what TEN offered. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aplsc8$2l5dk$[email hidden]... > As for the Nx series having online play, I think you'll agree that N2,like > ICR2, didn't support online playing like GPL does. For all practical > purposes it was modem-to-modem, except on Hawaii, which isn't the same > degree of freedom and accessibility as GPL's online feature provides. > > GPL took online playing a fairly substantial step further by making iteasy > to use, by giving a lot more people the capability to race and hostonline, > and also by dramatically increasing the quality of online playing on theat > the time less than optimal connections and hardware. >

"TDRacin�" wrote: > > TEN was out long before GPL was. There still isn't a system today that can > compare to what TEN offered. My name is George and I have options now.... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

I can't imagine Papyrus just sticking all the code they have developed thus far in a closet and never looking back. I can only imagine what GTA3 would have been like with better physics and proper controller support. I think if we really want something badly enough, we (the racing sim community) are going to have to build it ourselves. Any flight simmers here will have an idea of what I am talking about. Oh and if you really want something badly enough, you will be willing to pay a premium for it. I am sort of glad NR2003 will be the last in the line (for now anyway) because now we no longer have a moving target for mod developers. Remember when everyone was bitching about Papyrus releasing a game every year, and how panties were wadded about shelling out another $50... well now you won't have to do that. cheers, Gerald "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<U0gv9.162299$[email hidden]>...

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> Ya because that would sell to the console users ;) > > "DB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Maybe GPL II , 1970 for the playstation or Xbox is in order, with a > > PC followup of course :) > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Qkcv9.26721$[email hidden]... > > > Read the interview. Note the lack of denials in re console games in > Papy's > > > future. Next, use reductive logic. They can't do another NASCAR title > > > (EA's got an exclusive), they can't do IRL (Infogrames, I think, has > that > > > sewed up), and they're unlikely to do a road-racing game 'cuz they got > > > burned by GPL. That doesn't leave much--Ratbag's got a lock on > dirt-track > > > racing. ARCA? ASA? Silver Crown? Featherlite Modifieds? Baja 1000? > Too > > > bad the powers-that-be don't have the guts or wisdom to realize what a > > > market already exists for a GPL2.... (Little known fact: GPL--which by > now > > > has sold almost 200,000 copies--has a larger online community than Ghost > > > Recon, which is considered a huge hit in PC marketing circles.) > > > > > > "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:apjcpq$2062p$[email hidden]... > > > > So...whats papy going to do AFTER n2003?? > > > > dan > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:oK9v9.26185$[email hidden]... > > > > > Oopsies, forgot the URL: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=9950 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that > mean, > > > > > > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR > Racing. > Now > > > > > > what, Rich? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > > > You've got to admit that being blinded driving into turn 1 at Atlanta > > on a sunny day sounds fun. =) > > But are they gonna: > > 1) Allow us to turn that off? (Online racing is already hard enough to > pull off without pissing off everyone else on the track.)

Yup just another way to cut down the size of the field by turn one.! > > 2) Allow server admins to force it on? (People with less capable systems > will probably automatically be eliminated from alot of races if it is > forced on due to graphics load.) You can already hear the whining can't you? "Turn off the glare....I cain't seeeeeeewhaaaaa." > > 3) Have it also affect people that don't drive in-car (if it is forced > on)? > What? in this day and age there are still cretins who don't drive from INSIDE the car??? I am SHOCKED...SHOCKED I tell you.. dave(zzzzappped)henrie

TEN was a service, not a built-in feature or capability of a game. Achim "TDRacin�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4%wv9.37500$[email hidden]... > TEN was out long before GPL was. There still isn't a system today thatcan > compare to what TEN offered.

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh the memories! "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > "TDRacin�" wrote: > > > > TEN was out long before GPL was. There still isn't a system today thatcan

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> > compare to what TEN offered. > > My name is George and I have options now.... > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" > --Groucho Marx--

I even have the name for the game. "Mad Max - Beyond Nascar" Hehe -Larry "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Vljv9.162386$[email hidden]... > I have to say Aussie V8s built on the Papy engine would be pretty nice.Be

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> a good sim to transition many of us hard code NASCAR types to the road > courses without having to make the switch to open wheel. > > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Steve Whitty wrote: > > > > > > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden].. > > > > > > > Naaah, they're doing an AussieV8 sim, I'm sure they are.... > > > > > > Now that would be great, but hey, whats that outside my window? Oh

just

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> a > > > pig with wings......:o) > > > > Uh huh, that's the problem with some people, they just don't recognize a > > good thing when they see it... > > > > http://thenorwaypits.com/temp/94bath.wmv > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > (uncle) Goy > > > > http://www.theuspits.com > > > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > > --Groucho Marx-- > >

Additive repairs! Dammit, I want additive repairs! -Larry "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:31:21 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >5) Solar effects (lens flare & sun glare) - yawn > > > > Yawn? Glare is one of the biggest challenges stock car drivers face > > at many tracks. > > > > I'm pretty psyched about this game. Looks like they're really going > > for broke and adding as many new features as they can. I only hope > > that it's not a bug infested nightmare, altho Papy is historically > > quick to release patches. > > > > Jason > > > > I think they would have been better off > > 1) making sure the damage model actually modeled damage on the cars > beyond just wrinkling the sheet metal > > 2) add the effects of brake fade > > 3) random acts of goofiness on the part of the pit crew (leaving the > catch can atached to the car, or letting a tire roll across pit road) > > 4) allow debris/oil/water to affect the car if you hit it/run over it. > > 5) improved the handling of cars files for online races > > Of course, that kind of stuff wasn't mentioned and that certainly > doesn't mean they haven't added some of that stuff, but it also doesn't > give me warm and fuzzies that they've possibly adrressed any of it > either. > > Don't get me wrong, I'm gonna be right there the day it appears on > shelves just like everyone else here, but I'm sure none of us are gonna > be happy with what they did/didn't fix/include/add/delete. > > > > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > RASCAR Roster > http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar > Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

Well, in this specific case, I think it does :) While the story line was a bit mushy for me, the Cinematography in Titanic was simply astonishing. -Larry "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:H6mv9.3609$[email hidden]...

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> >"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Just to put the GPL figures in perspective: > > Gran Turismo 2 for the PS sold 1,155,469 copies in the US along in 2000 > > > So? Titanic made 1.6 billion dollars worldwide, that doesn't mean it > equated 10 times the quality of a movie that made 160million$ at the Box > Office. > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

what? My NASCAR2 CD came with it on it. VROC, in this sense, is the same as TEN. GPL was the same as N2 where you had to use an external program for online racing. PS Hawaii was N1, not N2. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apm8k0$2rcl4$[email hidden]...

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> TEN was a service, not a built-in feature or capability of a game. > > Achim > > > "TDRacin�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4%wv9.37500$[email hidden]... > > TEN was out long before GPL was. There still isn't a system today that > can > > compare to what TEN offered. > >

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Jason Moyer) writes: >You've got to admit that being blinded driving into turn 1 at Atlanta >on a sunny day sounds fun. =) Masochist...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.21 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <sHev9.183135$[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes: >So you think you could, day in - day out, program a product you don't >believe in, that you think is wrong and keep at it indefinately, just 'cos >it pays the bills? The ideal situation would be to get paid for something you enjoy - then it wouldn't be 'work. The reality? Far too many people go to their job day after day, simply because it pays the bills. Unfortunately, I count myself in that group as well... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.21 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

apologies for the wisecracking that's now to come ;-) but made curious by your reminding me of MTM, I just checked MTM at the Zone (29 players) and then VROC (47 players) ;-) ... Achim "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I have to respectfully disagree with you on a few points. :-)

"TDRacin�" wrote: > > ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh the memories! Uh huh, those were some classic "arguments", and then there was the "winners vs losers" debate... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:07:20 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>But are they gonna: > >1) Allow us to turn that off? (Online racing is already hard enough to >pull off without pissing off everyone else on the track.) >2) Allow server admins to force it on? (People with less capable systems >will probably automatically be eliminated from alot of races if it is >forced on due to graphics load.) > >3) Have it also affect people that don't drive in-car (if it is forced >on)?

#3 is a good question. For 1 and 2 I would assume that they'll handle it like they do the forced cockpit and forced smoke options. I suppose I do kinda fear a Papy loop server with sun glare forced, but OTOH if it's done realistically I think it could be interesting. Jason

Indeed, TEN is in a way comparable to VROC, except that VROC's been put together by Alison Hine with other enthusiasts and has nothing to do with Papyrus. Both offer a place where racers can meet. But that's not what I'm talking about - I am talking about GPL's online code which is much advanced over N2's. I'm comparing GPL without VROC to N2 without TEN, so to say. Btw, GPL doesn't need an external program for online racing. Anyone with a good enough connection can host a full field of 18 other cars without needing any additional software. Achim "TDRacin�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sOyv9.37737$[email hidden]... > what? My NASCAR2 CD came with it on it. VROC, in this sense, is the same > as TEN. GPL was the same as N2 where you had to use an external programfor

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> online racing. > > PS Hawaii was N1, not N2. > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:apm8k0$2rcl4$[email hidden]... > > TEN was a service, not a built-in feature or capability of a game. > > > > Achim > > > > > > "TDRacin�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:4%wv9.37500$[email hidden]... > > > TEN was out long before GPL was. There still isn't a system today

that > > can > > > compare to what TEN offered. > > > > > >

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:AHyv9.53568$[email hidden]... > Well, in this specific case, I think it does :) > > While the story line was a bit mushy for me, the Cinematography in Titanic > was simply astonishing. > > -Larry And why Propeller Man never got some award is a crime!!! dave henrie

I'd be happy if they just get the spin recovery back to reality :) I.e., turn the wheels the way it should be done to recover from a spin, vs. the N2k way. John "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GJ9v9.26184$[email hidden]... > Brave talk from Papy's Rich Yasi on HomeLAN Fed (what DOES that mean, > anyway?) site in re the upcoming--and last iteration--of NASCAR Racing.Now > what, Rich? > >

Yes, but so is VROC :) John "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apm8k0$2rcl4$[email hidden]...

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> TEN was a service, not a built-in feature or capability of a game. > > Achim > > > "TDRacin�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4%wv9.37500$[email hidden]... > > TEN was out long before GPL was. There still isn't a system today that > can > > compare to what TEN offered. > >

Yes, but so is VROC :) John

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> TEN was a service, not a built-in feature or capability of a game. > Achim > > TEN was out long before GPL was. There still isn't a system today that > can > > compare to what TEN offered.

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > Show me proof of 200,000 copies sold or be quiet. Show me proof of not 200,000 copies sold or be quiet. I trust somebody like Steve more then anybody here in this case. > Weren't they dumping copies of it for a few bucks on shelves even three > years after it's release? It's still copies sold. Repackaging games at lesser price YEARS after their release normally means that there is still potential for the software, that it still sells. You don't see C:PR in the shelves anymore no? <G> -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote > Uh huh, those were some classic "arguments", and then there was the > "winners vs losers" debate... I wished somebody had kept all that stuff, on the TEN t.g.s.n., the Jacob NG, MHO and Jacob again another and archived all the posts (without binaries). Now wouldn't that have been fun? ;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote > While the story line was a bit mushy for me, the Cinematography in Titanic > was simply astonishing. It was pretty simple "classical" cinematography Larry. There's tons of movies each year that push the boundaries of cinematography and editing much more then Titanic. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Yes, but at the Zone, they're actually playing the games, instead of sitting in chat :) John "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apmbr0$2ulq8$[email hidden]...

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> apologies for the wisecracking that's now to come ;-) but made curious by > your reminding me of MTM, I just checked MTM at the Zone (29 players) and > then VROC (47 players) ;-) ... > > Achim > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I have to respectfully disagree with you on a few points. :-) > > >

Oooooh 20 cars, a shitty interface, and the skill ratings meant as much then as they do today. Further, that was the ONLY way you could race online, and I hated paying for it. In article <4%wv9.37500$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> TEN was out long before GPL was. There still isn't a system today that can > compare to what TEN offered. > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aplsc8$2l5dk$[email hidden]... > > > As for the Nx series having online play, I think you'll agree that N2, > like > > ICR2, didn't support online playing like GPL does. For all practical > > purposes it was modem-to-modem, except on Hawaii, which isn't the same > > degree of freedom and accessibility as GPL's online feature provides. > > > > GPL took online playing a fairly substantial step further by making it > easy > > to use, by giving a lot more people the capability to race and host > online, > > and also by dramatically increasing the quality of online playing on the > at > > the time less than optimal connections and hardware. > > > > > >

-- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Now you've done it - you've backed up your claim with factual data and ruined the whole freakin argument... In article <apmbr0$2ulq8$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> apologies for the wisecracking that's now to come ;-) but made curious by > your reminding me of MTM, I just checked MTM at the Zone (29 players) and > then VROC (47 players) ;-) ... > > Achim > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I have to respectfully disagree with you on a few points. :-) >

-- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

you might want to hold off a second. Joachim posted his numbers at 12 pm est. Most of the people who play MTM2 are from the U.S., while GPL's fans are mostly European, where it was 5-6PM. Right now at 6pm est., there are 65 people in the MTM2 Zone room. It's still only 3pm on the west coast. I'll check back in a few hours and post a new total. Also, as I said before, there were two sequels to MTM2 in 4 X 4 Evo 1 and 2. Most fans of MTM2 moved to those so the facts are that GPL isn't really comparable to MTM2. Any comments? David G Fisher "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Now you've done it - you've backed up your claim with factual data and > ruined the whole freakin argument... > > > In article <apmbr0$2ulq8$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > apologies for the wisecracking that's now to come ;-) but made curious

by > > your reminding me of MTM, I just checked MTM at the Zone (29 players)and

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> > then VROC (47 players) ;-) ... > > > > Achim > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > I have to respectfully disagree with you on a few points. :-) > > > > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > RASCAR Roster > http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar > Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

See my reply to John. :-) David G Fisher "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apmbr0$2ulq8$[email hidden]...

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> apologies for the wisecracking that's now to come ;-) but made curious by > your reminding me of MTM, I just checked MTM at the Zone (29 players) and > then VROC (47 players) ;-) ... > > Achim > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I have to respectfully disagree with you on a few points. :-) > > >

But I'm not talking about VROC, I'm exclusively talking about what's within GPL itself. GPL's own online code :-) Achim "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Yes, but so is VROC :) > > John > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:apm8k0$2rcl4$[email hidden]... > > TEN was a service, not a built-in feature or capability of a game. > > > > Achim > > > > > > "TDRacin�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:4%wv9.37500$[email hidden]... > > > TEN was out long before GPL was. There still isn't a system today

that > > can > > > compare to what TEN offered. > > > > > >

There you see how versatile GPL is - not only brings it people to race online, it even makes them more communicative! :-) Achim "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Yes, but at the Zone, they're actually playing the games, instead of > sitting in chat :) > > John > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:apmbr0$2ulq8$[email hidden]... > > apologies for the wisecracking that's now to come ;-) but made curious

by > > your reminding me of MTM, I just checked MTM at the Zone (29 players)and

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> > then VROC (47 players) ;-) ... > > > > Achim > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > I have to respectfully disagree with you on a few points. :-) > > > > > > > >

Do you mean the ability to partially fix a car, stop the repair, run around the track and then come back in so that you don't have to go a lap down? I guess I didn't realize that wasn't in there. It definitely needs to be, the real teams use that all the time. "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mDyv9.53516$[email hidden]... > Additive repairs! Dammit, I want additive repairs! > > -Larry >

"David G Fisher" wrote... > you might want to hold off a second. > > <snip> If you're going to compare GPL to several games, I want N4 and N2002 online totals included into the comparison. Jan. =---

"John Pancoast" wrote... > I'd be happy if they just get the spin recovery back > to reality :) > > I.e., turn the wheels the way it should be done to > recover from a spin, vs. the N2k way. Controlling an assymetric car on a banked track is counter-intuitive in many ways. See Carroll Smith's "Drive to Win" for glimpse of the problem. Jan. =---

"The Last of the (Aussie) V8's" ;) db "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jCyv9.53503$[email hidden]...

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> I even have the name for the game. > > "Mad Max - Beyond Nascar" > > Hehe > > -Larry > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Vljv9.162386$[email hidden]... > > I have to say Aussie V8s built on the Papy engine would be pretty nice. > Be > > a good sim to transition many of us hard code NASCAR types to the road > > courses without having to make the switch to open wheel. > > > > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > Steve Whitty wrote: > > > > > > > > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden].. > > > > > > > > > Naaah, they're doing an AussieV8 sim, I'm sure they are.... > > > > > > > > Now that would be great, but hey, whats that outside my window? Oh > just > > a > > > > pig with wings......:o) > > > > > > Uh huh, that's the problem with some people, they just don't recognize

a

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> > > good thing when they see it... > > > > > > http://thenorwaypits.com/temp/94bath.wmv > > > > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > > (uncle) Goy > > > > > > http://www.theuspits.com > > > > > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > > > --Groucho Marx-- > > > > > >

???? "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ViFv9.185637$[email hidden]... > "David G Fisher" wrote... > > you might want to hold off a second. > > > > <snip> > > If you're going to compare GPL to several games, I want N4 and N2002online > totals included into the comparison. > > Jan. > =--- > >

"David G Fisher" wrote... > ???? <sigh> I can understand people misinterpreting what someone else wrote, but to not know what one wrote oneself is really pushing it.... "there were two sequels to MTM2 in 4 X 4 Evo 1 and 2. Most fans of MTM2 moved to those so the facts are that GPL isn't really comparable to MTM2" So you say, it's not good to compare GPL to MTM2, because MTM2 has two sequels which take away players from the original, therefore implying GPL should be compared to the total of players as these three games form a lineage. I counter that by pointing out GPL has two sequels in the form of N4 and N2k2, both of which are based on GPL technology, so, using your reasoning, these should be included in the comparison too. Sort of a "reductio ad absurdum"<sp?> to show your argument is flawed. Jan. =---

Steve - Do you still keep in touch with Randy Cassidy and Dave Kaemmer? E-Mail them with these numbers bro! - Dave Cook "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EYuv9.28824$[email hidden]...

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> Also, you can judge the realtive sizes of the online communities (which has > little or no relation to the total number of games sold) by the number of > d/l's. Within 24 hours of its release, GPL Glance had 6500 d/l's. I can't > find anything in the GR community (of which I am a frenetically active > member) that rivals it. > > Online players are hard core; they drive sales. By most estimates, the GPL > community numbers 10K-30K. That would translate into 10X retail sales. > Nowhere near console-game numbers, but that's comparing apples and oranges. > Console sales have to number in the hundreds of thousands to break even > (even w/o the $7-per-game licensing fee to the platform owner); PC games can > turn a profit on much smaller numbers.

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QEFv9.185646$[email hidden]... > "David G Fisher" wrote... > > ???? > > <sigh> > > I can understand people misinterpreting what someone else wrote, but tonot

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> know what one wrote oneself is really pushing it.... > > "there were two sequels to MTM2 in 4 X 4 Evo 1 and 2. > Most fans of MTM2 moved to those so the facts are that > GPL isn't really comparable to MTM2" > > So you say, it's not good to compare GPL to MTM2, because MTM2 has two > sequels which take away players from the original, therefore implying GPL > should be compared to the total of players as these three games form a > lineage. > > I counter that by pointing out GPL has two sequels in the form of N4 and > N2k2, both of which are based on GPL technology, so, using your reasoning, > these should be included in the comparison too. > > Sort of a "reductio ad absurdum"<sp?> to show your argument is flawed. > > Jan. > =---

I had no idea that N4 and N2002 (modern NASCAR sims) were somehow sequels to a '67 F1 sim. Learn something new here every day. Historic F1 fans and NASCAR fans skipping hand in hand through a dewey meadow. I can see it now. <sigh> Almost the entire fan base of MTM2 immediately moved from Tri's MTM2 to Tri's Evo1.They are both truck racing games. Evo was designed by Tri to be a sequel to MTM2, and to bring it's fan base over to the new game. The thousands of user created trucks and tracks were transferrable from MTM2 to Evo1. Evo2 followed. Evo3 is on it's way. Even though MTM2 is older than GPL, and the fan base moved on to MTM2's sequels, there are still more people playing MTM2 now than GPL. Quick update, at 8:00pm est there are now 85 players at the Zone. Number keeps going up and up. "Factual data" still ruining my whole "freakin arguement"? David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" wrote...

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> <snip> > I had no idea that N4 and N2002 (modern NASCAR sims) were > somehow sequels to a '67 F1 sim. Learn something new here > every day. Historic F1 fans and NASCAR fans skipping hand > in hand through a dewey meadow. I can see it now. > > <sigh>

Errrr... same developer, same technology, different cars. As in MTM and Evo 4x4? I personally know of at least 4 simmers who went from N2/N3 to GPL, because the simulation and online aspects were better and then back to N4/N2k2 because the technology had moved on to a series they felt more affinity with. Again, the similarities are striking.

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> Almost the entire fan base of MTM2 immediately moved > from Tri's MTM2 to Tri's Evo1. They are both truck > racing games. Evo was designed by Tri to be a sequel > to MTM2, and to bring it's fan base over to the new > game. The thousands of user created trucks and tracks > were transferrable from MTM2 to Evo1. Evo2 followed. > Evo3 is on it's way.

GPL's road courses have been converted to N4 and N2k2 by third parties... your point being?

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> Even though MTM2 is older than GPL, and the fan base > moved on to MTM2's sequels, there are still more > people playing MTM2 now than GPL. > Quick update, at 8:00pm est there are now 85 players > at the Zone. Number keeps going up and up. > > "Factual data" still ruining my whole "freakin > arguement"?

So there's more people into arcade type racing than simulation? -Similary, more people are attracted to "moron internet" than actual providers? -Have we learned something new here? Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PGGv9.185667$[email hidden]...

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> "David G Fisher" wrote... > > <snip> > > I had no idea that N4 and N2002 (modern NASCAR sims) were > > somehow sequels to a '67 F1 sim. Learn something new here > > every day. Historic F1 fans and NASCAR fans skipping hand > > in hand through a dewey meadow. I can see it now. > > > > <sigh> > > Errrr... same developer, same technology, different cars. As in MTM and

Evo > 4x4? No, MTM2 and 4 x 4 are both off road truck racing games. GPL and N4/N2002 are completely different racing series separated by over 30 years. The name was changed since Microsoft owned it and Tri severed their relationship with them after MTM2. Tri designed the trucks and tracks to transfer from one game to the other the day you bought Evo. The developers themselves even updated tracks from MTM2 and put them into Evo1 and 2. Papyrus provides no tools for someone to transfer cars from GPL to N4 or N2002, and only some tracks can be transferred if you pay for a third party converter, which didn't come out until GPL had been around for how long? That's why I have no GPL tracks for my copy of N2002. I have no GPL cars driving around on N2002 tracks. Jan, I know you don't truly believe for a second that N4 and N2002 are sequels to GPL, so I'm really just having fun right now. If you do, then you better tell some of these guys to stop wasting so much time hoping for and discussing a GPL sequel because two already exist. BTW, is JV Speed Challenge a sequel to F1RC? 9:15 pm est and 95 players at the Zone playing MTM2. David G Fisher

>"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote > Oooooh 20 cars 32!!! (okay well it lasted only the last week) > a shitty interface pfffffffffftt!! Tell me something now as cool as the green text on black background, the 100 limit arenas where you would put a weight on the [Enter] key so could enter "The Backstretch" for Dega pickups and daily flaming chat sessions of me vs. the customers, SCU8 errors while checking your rankings, the muzzle sound, etc.. ;) > and the skill ratings meant as much then as they do today. Actually I say and still say that with Richard Walker's own NPR and other ranking statistics, it was pretty well rounded. > Further, that was the ONLY way you could race > online, and I hated paying for it. There's still nothing that can equal it. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > Also, as I said before, there were two sequels to MTM2 in 4 X 4 Evo 1 and2. You really consider those "sequels" ? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > Almost the entire fan base of MTM2 immediately moved from Tri's MTM2 to > Tri's Evo1.They are both truck racing games. Errrrr David one is a MONSTER TRUCK racing game. The other is a SUV/Truck racing game. It's as different as a CART versus an F1 game. Both share similarities (high power/low weight advanced open wheel cars), but one can't be a "sequel". > "Factual data" still ruining my whole "freakin arguement"? Facts are for wusses. eh -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

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>"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote > "John Pancoast" wrote... > > > I.e., turn the wheels the way it should be done to > > recover from a spin, vs. the N2k way. > > Controlling an assymetric car on a banked track is counter-intuitive in

many > ways. See Carroll Smith's "Drive to Win" for glimpse of the problem. Oh no not thing again ;-/ (Jan, the turn-away-from-the-spin debate has lasted for years in the "other" Nascar newsgroup, eh). -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Don't get going with Francois on movies Larry; you'll lose :) And for God's sake, don't insult Kubrick <G> John "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:t2Dv9.4845$[email hidden]... > >"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote > > While the story line was a bit mushy for me, the Cinematography inTitanic > > was simply astonishing. > > > It was pretty simple "classical" cinematography Larry. There's tons of > movies each year that push the boundaries of cinematography and editingmuch

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> more then Titanic. > > > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

Lol, touche. John "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apn28v$393u6$[email hidden]...

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> There you see how versatile GPL is - not only brings it people to race > online, it even makes them more communicative! :-) > > Achim > > > "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Yes, but at the Zone, they're actually playing the games, instead of > > sitting in chat :) > > > > John > > > > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:apmbr0$2ulq8$[email hidden]... > > > apologies for the wisecracking that's now to come ;-) but made curious > by > > > your reminding me of MTM, I just checked MTM at the Zone (29 players) > and > > > then VROC (47 players) ;-) ... > > > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > I have to respectfully disagree with you on a few points. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Lol, touche. John

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> There you see how versatile GPL is - not only brings it people to race > online, it even makes them more communicative! :-) > Achim > > Yes, but at the Zone, they're actually playing the games, instead of > > sitting in chat :) > > John > > > apologies for the wisecracking that's now to come ;-) but made curious > by > > > your reminding me of MTM, I just checked MTM at the Zone (29 players) > and > > > then VROC (47 players) ;-) ... > > > Achim > > > > I have to respectfully disagree with you on a few points. :-)

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nIHv9.5003$[email hidden]...

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> >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Almost the entire fan base of MTM2 immediately moved from Tri's MTM2 to > > Tri's Evo1.They are both truck racing games. > > > Errrrr David one is a MONSTER TRUCK racing game. The other is a SUV/Truck > racing game. It's as different as a CART versus an F1 game. Both share > similarities (high power/low weight advanced open wheel cars), but one

can't > be a "sequel". Really. You better tell that to Tri and the entire MTM2 community who viewed Evo as it's sequel. The entire game of MTM2, along with it's thousands of trucks and tracks could be transferred into Evo. The people who led the MTM2 community were involved in the beta testing of Evo and helped prepare for the change over from one game to the other. The MTM2 web sites which hosted all of those trucks and tracks and forums switched from MTM2 to Evo. My head hurts. David G Fisher

See my reply to your other post. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JGHv9.5000$[email hidden]... > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Also, as I said before, there were two sequels to MTM2 in 4 X 4 Evo 1and

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> 2. > > > You really consider those "sequels" ? > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

Don't get me started on that please Jan :) John "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qlFv9.185638$[email hidden]...

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> "John Pancoast" wrote... > > I'd be happy if they just get the spin recovery back > > to reality :) > > > > I.e., turn the wheels the way it should be done to > > recover from a spin, vs. the N2k way. > > Controlling an assymetric car on a banked track is counter-intuitive in

many > ways. See Carroll Smith's "Drive to Win" for glimpse of the problem. > > Jan. > =--- > >

In article <[email hidden]>, "John Pancoast" <[email hidden]> writes: > Don't get going with Francois on movies Larry; you'll lose :) And for >God's sake, don't insult Kubrick <G> Kubrick? That HACK? :-) Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.21 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Joachim Trensz wrote: > Anyway, you've got a point when you say that GPL's still being played > because there's no sequel. Ummm... But this point is a bit flawed, since GPL basically *did* have a sequel. Most of the GPL drivers (not me, I only have a PII-333) are playing it now. We should remember what GPL *originally* was, and what it is now - from the much much cooler graphics, the extra utilities to the dozens of extra tracks, a very much evolved and improved game. Look at some of the original screenshots, then look at today's "GPL Improv'd" (or better, the other way around) and see what I mean ;) If Papyrus had been able to incorporate all the same changes in something called GPL II, most of us would have bought it in an instant and be pretty darn happy. Just because there hasn't been an official sequel to Grand Prix Legends, doesn't mean it didn't evolve into something much cooler than the original old-graphics 7-track-GPL. And that's largely why people are still playing it today. Regards, Rudy

That has been there all along -- Brian Tate Communications Officer CART Toyota Atlantic Championship http://www.toyotaatlantic.com http://www.cart.com "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apn6sv$37v1j$[email hidden]... > Do you mean the ability to partially fix a car, stop the repair, run > around the track and then come back in so that you don't have to go a > lap down? I guess I didn't realize that wasn't in there. It definitely > needs to be, the real teams use that all the time. > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:mDyv9.53516$[email hidden]... > > Additive repairs! Dammit, I want additive repairs! > > > > -Larry > > >

"ymenard" wrote...

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> > <snip> > Oh no not thing again ;-/ > > > > (Jan, the turn-away-from-the-spin debate has lasted > for years in the "other" Nascar newsgroup, eh).

So? <vwg> Jan. =---

Dave Boyle wrote: > > "The Last of the (Aussie) V8's" > ;) AussieV8's will live forever.... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Well good, but then I guess I am not sure what Larry is trying to say. "Brian Tate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> That has been there all along > > -- > Brian Tate > Communications Officer > CART Toyota Atlantic Championship > http://www.toyotaatlantic.com http://www.cart.com > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:apn6sv$37v1j$[email hidden]... > > Do you mean the ability to partially fix a car, stop the repair, run > > around the track and then come back in so that you don't have to go

a > > lap down? I guess I didn't realize that wasn't in there. Itdefinitely

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> > needs to be, the real teams use that all the time. > > > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:mDyv9.53516$[email hidden]... > > > Additive repairs! Dammit, I want additive repairs! > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > >

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:apq5bs$3vtgu$[email hidden]... > Well good, but then I guess I am not sure what Larry is trying to say. > > "Brian Tate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > That has been there all along > > I had thought that feature was in versions PRIOR to N4, but ever since N4 there has been a clamoring for continued repairs... FWIU, you CAN keep running around and pitting, but the program only figures a finite repair, which is usually completed on the first pitstop. There-after, even if you still have mega damage, the crew will not attempt any more repair work. I've never verified that, just what I've seen here quite often. dave henrie

>"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote > So? <vwg> SoS! Seriously, I've been telling those rednecks (tehehe) that it's somehow correctly modeled in NR2002 within the limitations of the physics, but they think it's still all wrong in GPL/N4/NR2002. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<0udv9.41117$[email hidden]>... > And I do not like at all the hints that the next game will be for consoles. > IMHO, you would never be able to implement a TRUE SIM the likes of > NR2002/2003 on a console with it's limited resources. My head hurts. I remember playing GPL on my P120 with Voodoo 3DFX, many years ago. It ran perfectly fine as a simulation (admittedly I had to turn down some graphics options). Everybody here respects GPL as having fantastic physics. Look at the xbox. It is a 733Mhz (Not 100% sure about that figure) PC in a small (ish) box. Why couldn't that run GPL? Oh, because it is a CONSOLE. Sometimes, the logic escapes me. Why wouldn't a sim like GPL run on a PS2 or an xbox? No reason at all. In fact, they could improve the graphics (it has been 5 years), add an easier 'arcade' style mode to improve the sales figures (and keep the publishers happy), run it locked at 60fps, and set it up with PS2BB or whatever the xbox broadband thing is called. Then you plug in your Momo (not sure about plugging it into the oddly shaped USB ports on the xbox, but it works with the PS2) and play away. If anybody can give me a reasonable explanation why this would not work (without using the 'console' excuse), then I will understand, but until then I will remain confused at the illogical arguments.

" If anybody can give me a reasonable explanation why this would not work (without using the 'console' excuse), then I will understand, but until then I will remain confused at the illogical arguments." Because 12-15 year olds wouldn't play GPL if ya gave it away. Vintage Formula 1 racing or BMX XXX, hmmm. "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<0udv9.41117$[email hidden]>... > > And I do not like at all the hints that the next game will be forconsoles.

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> > IMHO, you would never be able to implement a TRUE SIM the likes of > > NR2002/2003 on a console with it's limited resources. > > My head hurts. I remember playing GPL on my P120 with Voodoo 3DFX, > many years ago. It ran perfectly fine as a simulation (admittedly I > had to turn down some graphics options). Everybody here respects GPL > as having fantastic physics. Look at the xbox. It is a 733Mhz (Not > 100% sure about that figure) PC in a small (ish) box. Why couldn't > that run GPL? Oh, because it is a CONSOLE. Sometimes, the logic > escapes me. > > Why wouldn't a sim like GPL run on a PS2 or an xbox? No reason at all. > In fact, they could improve the graphics (it has been 5 years), add an > easier 'arcade' style mode to improve the sales figures (and keep the > publishers happy), run it locked at 60fps, and set it up with PS2BB or > whatever the xbox broadband thing is called. Then you plug in your > Momo (not sure about plugging it into the oddly shaped USB ports on > the xbox, but it works with the PS2) and play away. If anybody can > give me a reasonable explanation why this would not work (without > using the 'console' excuse), then I will understand, but until then I > will remain confused at the illogical arguments.

> If anybody can > give me a reasonable explanation why this would not work (without > using the 'console' excuse), then I will understand, but until then I > will remain confused at the illogical arguments. Support for multiple/exotic controllers. That's all. There's no technical reason a console wouldn't be able to do GPL except that IIRC GPL can recognize 16 axes/controllers? I'm using 1 controller for a wheel, another for the gas and brake pedals, another for the clutch and yet another for the gearshift. I'd *love* to play F355 challenge with my full PC controller rig - just like full simulation mode in the arcades... Mark Reading, UK

Totally right on the money Nick. Console arguments have gone by the wayside regarding not enough horsepower. XBOX Live and PS2's version will make online sim-racing a reality within the next few years. Heck, people worry all the time about cheaters.... At least with a console, it will be a lot harder to cheat online. "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<0udv9.41117$[email hidden]>... > > And I do not like at all the hints that the next game will be forconsoles.

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> > IMHO, you would never be able to implement a TRUE SIM the likes of > > NR2002/2003 on a console with it's limited resources. > > My head hurts. I remember playing GPL on my P120 with Voodoo 3DFX, > many years ago. It ran perfectly fine as a simulation (admittedly I > had to turn down some graphics options). Everybody here respects GPL > as having fantastic physics. Look at the xbox. It is a 733Mhz (Not > 100% sure about that figure) PC in a small (ish) box. Why couldn't > that run GPL? Oh, because it is a CONSOLE. Sometimes, the logic > escapes me. > > Why wouldn't a sim like GPL run on a PS2 or an xbox? No reason at all. > In fact, they could improve the graphics (it has been 5 years), add an > easier 'arcade' style mode to improve the sales figures (and keep the > publishers happy), run it locked at 60fps, and set it up with PS2BB or > whatever the xbox broadband thing is called. Then you plug in your > Momo (not sure about plugging it into the oddly shaped USB ports on > the xbox, but it works with the PS2) and play away. If anybody can > give me a reasonable explanation why this would not work (without > using the 'console' excuse), then I will understand, but until then I > will remain confused at the illogical arguments.

"Mark Davison" > I'd *love* to play F355 challenge with my full PC controller rig - justlike > full simulation mode in the arcades... > > Mark > Reading, UK > just to throw some grit in the argument...how many PC titles support your full kit??? dave henrie >

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Kkmw9.182423$md1.41523@sccrnsc03... > just to throw some grit in the argument...how many PC titles supportyour > full kit??? > dave henrie Main titles: GPL N2K2 Mild diversions: Live For Speed (it sees the controllers, RS shifter not supported as yet - promised in future) Rally Trophy (not tried with shifter but it's recognized and I believe is supported via a patch?) At the moment that's all I play. I seem to remember that NFS:PU didn't have issues with separate wheel and pedals, but I didn't have a shifter then and the game IIRC didn't have clutch options. I have no reason to worry that when N2K3 appears it will not support all my kit given Papy history. The F12K2 demo didn't have a problem with separate wheel and pedal controllers either, but as that was F1 I obviously had no use for the shifter (used the MOMO paddles) and I assigned the clutch to a wheel button. Regards, Mark Reading, UK

You haven't said a _thing_ to change my mind. I'm not a big fan of GT3, so that's not a good example to me. My feelings stand. I just don't believe consoles have the resources or horsepower to do a true, all-out simulation. -Larry "e f" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<Qydv9.41194$[email hidden]>...

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> > I think you are assuming Papy has their destiny in their own hands. > > Methinks it's more like Sierra is pushing them into console development. > > > > And I think they are going to fall flat on their face. This is not what > > Papy is all about. They are about real-life simulations (or at least as > > close as you can get). With console development they are diving into a > > snakes pit full of developers that have the development, marketing and > > everything else nailed down to a science. > > > > Not to mention the fact that driving games on the consoles are > prolific. It might well be a tight squeeze, the market is probably > already saturated, with only a few titles (like Gran Turismo 3) > sucking up most of the sales. > > > I stand by my statement that you can't do what Papy currently does on a > > Console. I just do not think the resources are there. > > > > > > Are you rec.autos.simulators fanboys on another planet, or what? > Haven't you heard of/played Gran Turismo 3? Consoles most certainly > do have the resources to caclucate things like physics now days. Of > course, PC's still have the graphical edge, but that's another matter. > > I think you all hold GPL up like some yardstick, and if the driving > model isn't as difficult, well then, there must be something wrong > with it. And if a game has driving aids, well, it's just an arcade > game, even if you can turn them off.

And I'd sign up for it in a heartbeat today if it were to come back. -Larry "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Oooooh 20 cars, a shitty interface, and the skill ratings meant as much > then as they do today. Further, that was the ONLY way you could race > online, and I hated paying for it. > > In article <4%wv9.37500$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > TEN was out long before GPL was. There still isn't a system today that

can

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> > compare to what TEN offered. > > > > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:aplsc8$2l5dk$[email hidden]... > > > > > As for the Nx series having online play, I think you'll agree that N2, > > like > > > ICR2, didn't support online playing like GPL does. For all practical > > > purposes it was modem-to-modem, except on Hawaii, which isn't the same > > > degree of freedom and accessibility as GPL's online feature provides. > > > > > > GPL took online playing a fairly substantial step further by making it > > easy > > > to use, by giving a lot more people the capability to race and host > > online, > > > and also by dramatically increasing the quality of online playing on

the

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> > at > > > the time less than optimal connections and hardware. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > RASCAR Roster > http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar > Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

In article <huBw9.73593$[email hidden]>, "Larry" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>And I'd sign up for it in a heartbeat today if it were to come back. > >-Larry > >"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Oooooh 20 cars, a shitty interface, and the skill ratings meant as much >> then as they do today. Further, that was the ONLY way you could race >> online, and I hated paying for it.

I wouldn't. It's bad enough to get lapped and run over for FREE. I'm sure as hell not gonna PAY for that 'priviledge'... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.19 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Well, I didn't have that problem on TEN :) -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <huBw9.73593$[email hidden]>, "Larry" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >And I'd sign up for it in a heartbeat today if it were to come back. > > > >-Larry > > > >"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Oooooh 20 cars, a shitty interface, and the skill ratings meant as much > >> then as they do today. Further, that was the ONLY way you could race > >> online, and I hated paying for it. > > I wouldn't. It's bad enough to get lapped and run over for FREE. I'm

sure as

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> hell not gonna PAY for that 'priviledge'... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:+6.19 > N2002 Rank:+18.91 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <nnVw9.80215$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Well, I didn't have that problem on TEN :) > You don';t have that problem on Sierra either, as long as you race in league races and avoid pickup races at all costs. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" http://www.paddedwall.org/john DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends http://www.paddedwall.org/demons DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 RASCAR Roster http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

I was a pickup racer from hell on TEN, and there still isn't anything like it. "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <nnVw9.80215$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > Well, I didn't have that problem on TEN :) > > > > You don';t have that problem on Sierra either, as long as you race in > league races and avoid pickup races at all costs. > > > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity" > http://www.paddedwall.org/john > DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons > DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development) > http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2 > RASCAR Roster > http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar > Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting) > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

"ymenard" wrote...

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> > <snip> > SoS! > > > Seriously, I've been telling those rednecks (tehehe) that > it's somehow correctly modeled in NR2002 within the > limitations of the physics, but they think it's still all > wrong in GPL/N4/NR2002.

Fwiw, as I understand the literature on the subject, you're right. Jan. =---

"TDRacin " <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<En_w9.41630$[email hidden]>... > I was a pickup racer from hell on TEN, and there still isn't anything like > it. I didn't know you could race pickups on it....... I'll get me coat.

On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:59:35 -0500, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Seriously, I've been telling those rednecks (tehehe) that it's somehow >correctly modeled in NR2002 within the limitations of the physics, but they >think it's still all wrong in GPL/N4/NR2002. If the car starts to go into a spin don't you just countersteer and ease off the throttle to keep the rear wheels from spinning wildly? Jason

"Jason Moyer" wrote... > > <snip> > If the car starts to go into a spin don't you just > countersteer and ease off the throttle to keep the > rear wheels from spinning wildly? Possibly, but, depending on the yaw angle of the asymmetric car on a banked surface, it might do you more harm than good. Breaking traction at the front to stop it rotating until you bleed enough speed to regain control might be your only option. The thing to remember here is that the (competitive) oval car is much more on a knife's edge than its road course counterpart. Jan. =---

In article <nnVw9.80215$[email hidden]>, "Larry" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Well, I didn't have that problem on TEN :) > >-Larry > >> I wouldn't. It's bad enough to get lapped and run over for FREE. I'm >sure as >> hell not gonna PAY for that 'priviledge'... >>

No, I meant the faster drivers kicking my ass on a daily basis... I see no need to pay for that. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:+6.19 N2002 Rank:+18.91 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

lol rookie "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "TDRacin " <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<En_w9.41630$[email hidden]>... > > I was a pickup racer from hell on TEN, and there still isn't anythinglike > > it. > > I didn't know you could race pickups on it....... I'll get me coat.

The ideal p2p service would allow everyone to race against others more on their skill level; something I think TEN would've eventually been able to offer had it stuck around. -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... In article <nnVw9.80215$[email hidden]>, "Larry" <[email hidden]> writes: >Well, I didn't have that problem on TEN :) > >-Larry > >> I wouldn't. It's bad enough to get lapped and run over for FREE. I'm >sure as >> hell not gonna PAY for that 'priviledge'... >> No, I meant the faster drivers kicking my ass on a daily basis... I see no need to pay for that. Eldred --

I've found it far more useful to steer slightly LEFT when the rear steps out instead of following my instincts to turn into the spin. I've saved far more spinouts doing this than I have the traditional method. You have to be clear up top though, becaue it almost always sends you up a lane or two. -Larry "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ahcx9.2401$[email hidden]...

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> "Jason Moyer" wrote... > > > <snip> > > If the car starts to go into a spin don't you just > > countersteer and ease off the throttle to keep the > > rear wheels from spinning wildly? > > > Possibly, but, depending on the yaw angle of the asymmetric car on a

banked > surface, it might do you more harm than good. Breaking traction at thefront > to stop it rotating until you bleed enough speed to regain control mightbe

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> your only option. > > The thing to remember here is that the (competitive) oval car is much more > on a knife's edge than its road course counterpart. > > Jan. > =--- > >

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:59:35 -0500, "ymenard" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Seriously, I've been telling those rednecks (tehehe) that it's somehow > >correctly modeled in NR2002 within the limitations of the physics, butthey > >think it's still all wrong in GPL/N4/NR2002. > > If the car starts to go into a spin don't you just countersteer and > ease off the throttle to keep the rear wheels from spinning wildly? > > Jason If the car looses traction during turn-in, I find it useful to apply throttle. If the car starts to go sideways out of a turn, I usually lift off (if I react fast enough), or apply break (to break the frontwheel grip). /Carl

"Schooner" wrote... > "that you think is wrong" ??? > Wrong in what sense that it is not a program I would > buy? Then yes. I have worked on a number of larger > scale database systems and I can't say that I would > want or need them myself but they have a purpose. I'm not talking about business or system software "that needs writing", but you have no personal interest in. I'm sure that if your relation with the customer, the designers and testers is good you can "happily" work on a project like that, even if you don't see the need for the product. I didn't and still don't have a need for a daily timer with the ability to remotely control rolling shutters and shades. I helped design and coded software for one though, and had fun doing it (you try making a circuit that runs for two years on a 1620 size 3V lithium battery <g>). > You confusing art with work I believe. Nope... coding real time racing simulations is both work and an artform. Some even say it's a black art. I can't imagine anyone really working on the simulation side of the titles and, to a certain extend, even the graphics artists and track builders not being passionate about racing sims and realism. I also cannot imagine them drawing work satisfaction off a console (arcade) title. I'm sure the people who handle the licencing or do the accounting couldn't care less if tyre grip is exactly modelled or whether the skid marks just look cool, but not the coders. There are plenty jobs I'm sure I qualify for, but I couldn't possibly do because, to me, the work is empty, meaningless, soul destroying... I'm just not prepared to put myself through that. There are plenty lower qualification jobs that aren't even half as objectionable to put food on the table if push comes to shove. > There are projects that are fun to be on and those > that need to be done that just pay the bills. Very > few people get to work on the "fun" stuff when > developing software. Okay, there are monotonous aspects to every job. I'm sure it's not fun carefully aligning textures at Daytona, but which is the more horourable thing to do for the sim enhtousiast? -Painstakingly recreating this historic venue in the sim for every other enthousiast to enjoy and experience, or making yet another faceless, vaguely sci-fi themed, "Megalopolis Raceway" for the attention deficit suffering masses? > As for paying the bills if that is what it takes then yes. > Do you see a lot of jobs being posted for people to work > on fun projects that they believe in? Not really. No they're not advertised... if you have a reputation for doing quality work in your particular field of expertise, they come to you. Jan. =---