What to do with that N2003/FE Physics model that's just collecting dust.

I got to thinking that if CART was smart, (and there's no saying they are), and they're still around next season, they'd contact Papy and have them tweak the physics model of N2003/FE to represent a Champ car (however that may be harder then I imagine). Have them brew up the CART tracks, and then release it as Champ car 2003 (or something to that effect). It's a win/win/win situation. Papy would be able to use it already researched & programmed engine for another release therefor getting a little more return on their original investment. CART would certainly benefit from the added exposure and increased fan awareness of the series, and as the public would get a great open wheel sim, with online capabilities (which we really haven't got yet), and some cross over of tracks between the two games (once the better minds than mine have figured it out) a la Nascar 1/Indycar Racing 2 way back in the day. Bobby

"Robert Upward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sMrA9.77281$[email hidden]... > I got to thinking that if CART was smart, (and there's no saying they > are), and they're still around next season, they'd contact Papy and have > them tweak the physics model of N2003/FE to represent a Champ car (however > that may be harder then I imagine). Have them brew up the CART tracks,and > then release it as Champ car 2003 (or something to that effect). It's a > win/win/win situation. Papy would be able to use it already researched & > programmed engine for another release therefor getting a little morereturn > on their original investment. CART would certainly benefit from the added > exposure and increased fan awareness of the series, and as the publicwould > get a great open wheel sim, with online capabilities (which we really > haven't got yet), and some cross over of tracks between the two games(once > the better minds than mine have figured it out) a la Nascar 1/IndycarRacing > 2 way back in the day. > > Bobby there are so many different racing sanctioning Bodies that could be done off of the NRx Physics/game engine. ARCA Hooters USAC UDTRA F1 IRL CART TOCA NHRA?? IHRA?? would any of these see the light of day...? - Isotrip�

On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:42:00 GMT, "Robert Upward" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> I got to thinking that if CART was smart, (and there's no saying they >are), and they're still around next season, they'd contact Papy and have >them tweak the physics model of N2003/FE to represent a Champ car (however >that may be harder then I imagine). Have them brew up the CART tracks, and >then release it as Champ car 2003 (or something to that effect). It's a >win/win/win situation. Papy would be able to use it already researched & >programmed engine for another release therefor getting a little more return >on their original investment. CART would certainly benefit from the added >exposure and increased fan awareness of the series, and as the public would >get a great open wheel sim, with online capabilities (which we really >haven't got yet), and some cross over of tracks between the two games (once >the better minds than mine have figured it out) a la Nascar 1/Indycar Racing >2 way back in the day.

Does Papyrus still have rights to the CART series? I remember reading a press release circa 1999 stating that they had purchased rights for a CART sim. Jason

No they let those rights expire, I THINK about the time of Nascar99. To my knowledge, there is an Arcade license granted to Midway(Cart Fury) and the Champweb team had explored getting CART all sewn up legally for it's mod of F1 2001. The original release date of that was supposed to be late this year or early next, but I haven't heard a word of PR from them in a long long long long long time. dave henrie "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:42:00 GMT, "Robert Upward" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > I got to thinking that if CART was smart, (and there's no saying they > >are), and they're still around next season, they'd contact Papy and have > >them tweak the physics model of N2003/FE to represent a Champ car(however > >that may be harder then I imagine). Have them brew up the CART tracks,and > >then release it as Champ car 2003 (or something to that effect). It's a > >win/win/win situation. Papy would be able to use it already researched & > >programmed engine for another release therefor getting a little morereturn > >on their original investment. CART would certainly benefit from theadded > >exposure and increased fan awareness of the series, and as the publicwould > >get a great open wheel sim, with online capabilities (which we really > >haven't got yet), and some cross over of tracks between the two games(once > >the better minds than mine have figured it out) a la Nascar 1/IndycarRacing

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> >2 way back in the day. > > Does Papyrus still have rights to the CART series? I remember reading > a press release circa 1999 stating that they had purchased rights for > a CART sim. > > Jason

Tried to sell this idea in the CART PR meetings a few year's ago. I think sims are a great way of exposing your sport to new and old fans. I can't count the number of guys that got turned onto Nascar by playing the Papyrus sim first. Too much red tape in upper management to get things like this done.

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> No they let those rights expire, I THINK about the time of Nascar99. To > my knowledge, there is an Arcade license granted to Midway(Cart Fury) and > the Champweb team had explored getting CART all sewn up legally for it's mod > of F1 2001. The original release date of that was supposed to be late this > year or early next, but I haven't heard a word of PR from them in a long > long long long long time. > dave henrie

Well, if the licence is expired, and noone holds a exclusive one (which i doubt since it's some time now since the Midway crap) I guess a new one shouldn't be too hard to arrange. I guess that if CART and Papy want a sim made, licencing would be a mere formality, not a problem.

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> "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:42:00 GMT, "Robert Upward" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > I got to thinking that if CART was smart, (and there's no saying they > > >are), and they're still around next season, they'd contact Papy and have > > >them tweak the physics model of N2003/FE to represent a Champ car > (however > > >that may be harder then I imagine). Have them brew up the CART tracks, > and > > >then release it as Champ car 2003 (or something to that effect). It's a > > >win/win/win situation. Papy would be able to use it already researched & > > >programmed engine for another release therefor getting a little more > return > > >on their original investment. CART would certainly benefit from the > added > > >exposure and increased fan awareness of the series, and as the public > would > > >get a great open wheel sim, with online capabilities (which we really > > >haven't got yet), and some cross over of tracks between the two games > (once > > >the better minds than mine have figured it out) a la Nascar 1/Indycar > Racing > > >2 way back in the day. > > > > Does Papyrus still have rights to the CART series? I remember reading > > a press release circa 1999 stating that they had purchased rights for > > a CART sim. > > > > Jason > >

-- Olav Malmin remove .spam when replying

Robert Upward wrote:

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> > I got to thinking that if CART was smart, (and there's no saying they > are), and they're still around next season, they'd contact Papy and have > them tweak the physics model of N2003/FE to represent a Champ car (however > that may be harder then I imagine). Have them brew up the CART tracks, and > then release it as Champ car 2003 (or something to that effect). It's a > win/win/win situation. Papy would be able to use it already researched & > programmed engine for another release therefor getting a little more return > on their original investment. CART would certainly benefit from the added > exposure and increased fan awareness of the series, and as the public would > get a great open wheel sim, with online capabilities (which we really > haven't got yet), and some cross over of tracks between the two games (once > the better minds than mine have figured it out) a la Nascar 1/Indycar Racing > 2 way back in the day.

AussieV8's !!! Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

From the stuff I read Papyrus wants to do dual platform games. The way I took that is what works on a console and PC would be basically the same. While I'm no programmer I would bet the current engine behind NR2002 would not run well on a console like a PS2. Now Thunder is different between PC and console so maybe they would still do it that way, but that's not what I got out of it. With that said what I'd like to see happen (which has been brought up before) is doing like ID and licensing the engine out. That would help a lot of developers cut costs and we could get many different motorsports titles from various developers. You guys could get your CART sim while others could get a Sports Car, Trans AM Legends, or even an Aussie V8 title MadDAWG

Brian, I am just curious if what you're saying is, did CART officially decline to do a sim game, or it never got to a point where someone actually said no. -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "Brian Tate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Tried to sell this idea in the CART PR meetings a few year's ago. I think sims are a great way of exposing your sport to new and old fans. I can't count the number of guys that got turned onto Nascar by playing the Papyrus sim first. Too much red tape in upper management to get things like this done.

Kind of both. I tried to come at it from the PR side. You see guys like Little E playing a Nascar game and fans naturally are going to want to play with what a driver does. A lot of CART drivers and Atlantic guys spend time playing games/sims so I thought it was a good PR angle. First there would have to be a realistic CART sim for them to play, which never got past the marketing/developer layer. Marketing really did not get behind the project or they never really understood it and the developers were never convinced a "realistic" CART sim would sell well enough to make it worth while. I put the proper people in touch with each other and that is where it ended. :< No one ever really said no. It guess it was more of a case of two parties not sure how to pull off a project like that, and who would pay for it. At the time, I thought a sim with a career mode would have been killer. Start in Atlantic and run the 12 race schedule. Move up to Indy Lights and another 12 race season before getting into Champcars. Since Atlantic and Lights ran about the same tracks, it would have been easy to incorporate them into the sim. I am just curious if what you're saying is, did CART officially decline to do a sim game, or it never got to a point where someone actually said no. -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "Brian Tate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Tried to sell this idea in the CART PR meetings a few year's ago. I think sims are a great way of exposing your sport to new and old fans. I can't count the number of guys that got turned onto Nascar by playing the Papyrus sim first. Too much red tape in upper management to get things like this done.

"Brian Tate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Kind of both. I tried to come at it from the PR side. I sent an letter to Bobby Rahal when he was the interim CART leader. I suggested that a Papy based sim be used as a tool for each city to help market the races. Cleveland could give-away copies of Cart2 with just the Cleveland track, and each organizer could use the sim to spur sales...or as an added value to the price of the tickets. Give the sucker away..but use it for marketing....Never heard back. :) dave henrie

"MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > From the stuff I read Papyrus wants to do dual platform games. The way I > took that is what works on a console and PC would be basically the same. > While I'm no programmer I would bet the current engine behind NR2002 would > not run well on a console like a PS2. Now Thunder is different between PC > and console so maybe they would still do it that way, but that's not whatI > got out of it. To often lately we are seeing the same game title being programed by two entirely separate teams. The console version often is greatly different from the PC. So Papyus' vision to craft multiplatform games seems to fly against the current trend dave henrie > With that said what I'd like to see happen (which has been brought up > before) is doing like ID and licensing the engine out. That would help alot > of developers cut costs and we could get many different motorsports titles > from various developers. You guys could get your CART sim while otherscould > get a Sports Car, Trans AM Legends, or even an Aussie V8 title > > MadDAWG > >

On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:18:49 -0500, "Brian Tate" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Tried to sell this idea in the CART PR meetings a few year's ago. You wouldn't happen to have Pook's email so we could start a letter writing campaign, eh? =) Jason

>"Robert Upward" <[email hidden]> wrote > I got to thinking that if CART was smart, (and there's no saying they > are), and they're still around next season, they'd contact Papy and have > them tweak the physics model of N2003/FE to represent a Champ car (however > that may be harder then I imagine). Have them brew up the CART tracks,and > then release it as Champ car 2003 (or something to that effect). It's a > win/win/win situation. Papy would be able to use it already researched & > programmed engine for another release therefor getting a little morereturn > on their original investment. CART would certainly benefit from the added > exposure and increased fan awareness of the series, and as the publicwould > get a great open wheel sim, with online capabilities (which we really > haven't got yet), and some cross over of tracks between the two games(once > the better minds than mine have figured it out) a la Nascar 1/IndycarRacing > 2 way back in the day. You know, that's not how the gaming industry works. It's the developer who has to *pay* CART so that they let them have a license. Not the other way around :) CART here benefits double, from the money they get from the licensing and the exposure they get (free advertising) on the shelves of PC gaming stores. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Brian Tate" <[email hidden]> wrote > [...]Move up to Indy Lights <inside> Hey that would have been pretty boring. At least ISI's game engine could have served for it's multiplayer, considering the low number of cars on track ;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

> With that said what I'd like to see happen (which has been brought up > before) is doing like ID and licensing the engine out. That would help alot > of developers cut costs and we could get many different motorsports titles > from various developers. You guys could get your CART sim while otherscould > get a Sports Car, Trans AM Legends, or even an Aussie V8 title > Another excellent idea. Bobby

I'm already on my way out the door since I won't move to Indy. Don't want to hasten that any. :> -- Brian Tate Communications Officer CART Toyota Atlantic Championship http://www.toyotaatlantic.com http://www.cart.com "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:18:49 -0500, "Brian Tate" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Tried to sell this idea in the CART PR meetings a few year's ago. > > You wouldn't happen to have Pook's email so we could start a letter > writing campaign, eh? =) > > Jason

I think CART would have or still would like this idea, but getting somebody like Papyrus to step out on a limb is the tough part. It is so much safer doing the Nascar and F1 games and sticking your neck out to do an open wheel sim. -- Brian Tate Communications Officer CART Toyota Atlantic Championship http://www.toyotaatlantic.com http://www.cart.com "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SxzA9.20144$QZ.4993@sccrnsc02... > > "Brian Tate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Kind of both. I tried to come at it from the PR side. > > I sent an letter to Bobby Rahal when he was the interim CART leader. I > suggested that a Papy based sim be used as a tool for each city to help > market the races. Cleveland could give-away copies of Cart2 with just the > Cleveland track, and each organizer could use the sim to spur sales...or as > an added value to the price of the tickets. Give the sucker away..but use > it for marketing....Never heard back. :) > dave henrie > > >

Brian Tate wrote: > > I'm already on my way out the door since I won't move to Indy. Don't want > to hasten that any. :> Which reminds me......some of us aren't too surprised that the decline of CART started about the same time you started to work there....:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

"MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > While I'm no programmer I would bet the current engine behind NR2002 would > not run well on a console like a PS2. Well, yes and no. The PS2 and GC are so fundamentally different to the PC and xbox, that they would have to write the engine from scratch (by that I mean, using the current physical principles and algorithms, but converting it to run on RISC processors and Vector Graphics units). All three consoles could run NR2002 (remember 640x480 is pretty maxed out on a TV) perfectly fine, but the core code would have to be changed slightly for the xbox, and massively for the PS2/GC. In terms of physics, they would be just as accurate. Think of it as translating it from English to Japanese :-) The reason some multi-platform games are different on console and PC (Medal of Honor, Thunder 2003 etc) is because they are developed by mutually exclusive teams. There aren't that many people around who can *properly* program a PC *and* a PS2. The games that are the same are usually developed on one platform and simply converted to another by a bunch of summer-placement undergraduates (Timesplitters 2, Metal Gear Solid: Substance etc). Generally, I will either buy the 'original' version (for Metal Gear Solid 2, this would be the PS2 version), because they are usually optimised for that platform (simplest example: MGS2 is designed for 4 shoulder buttons on PS2, how will that work on a 2 shoulder xbox pad? Or on a PC keyboard where the keys are digital?). Otherwise I guess it depends on the game: Madden NFL 2002 was a definite PS2 purchase, as was Tony Hawk 3, GTA3 etc for me, but Medal of Honor, Quake 3, F1 2002 were all definite PC purchases.

Sad but true. Imagine if Spielberg had to pay to use Reese's Pieces. I wonder if games will EVER get popular enough to turn it around? Gerald "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ZDCA9.11427$[email hidden]>... > > You know, that's not how the gaming industry works. It's the developer who > has to *pay* CART so that they let them have a license. Not the other way > around :)

>AussieV8's !!! > > >Beers and cheers >(uncle) Goy Oh, stuff it, Goy. I want racing I've actually seen before... :) ----------------------------------------- Dan Belcher Webmaster, http://simcrash.fameflame.dk

Dan Belcher wrote:

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> > >AussieV8's !!! > > > > > >Beers and cheers > >(uncle) Goy > > Oh, stuff it, Goy. I want racing I've actually seen before... :)

They show it on SpeedVision...:-), or so I've been told...:-( Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

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> Dan Belcher wrote: > > > > >AussieV8's !!! > > > > > > > > >Beers and cheers > > >(uncle) Goy > > > > Oh, stuff it, Goy. I want racing I've actually seen before... :) > > They show it on SpeedVision...:-), or so I've been told...:-( >

As a matter of fact, this very evening, THURSDAY the 14th...we get our first showing. From the speed channel website: 9:00 p.m. (ET) - Australian V8 Supercars SPEED is airing the largest national motorsport event ever to be held in Australia Tonight. The V8 Supercar Championship Series is based on a modified version of Australia's popular Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon cars. Tune in TONIGHT to witness firsthand the fierce rivalry between Holden and Ford, which has reached into the heart of the Australian psyche and ensures the longevity of the category and the continued appeal for fans. See it all on SPEED Channel! Tonight: Round one, the Clipsal 500, from Adelaide, South Australia. sorry Goy...I tried to find a chap witha DVD burner...but no luck. dave henrie

On 14 Nov 2002 10:25:18 -0800, [email hidden] (Nick) wrote: >All three consoles could run NR2002 (remember 640x480 is pretty maxed >out on a TV) perfectly fine, I was under the impression that the PS2 and Gamecube at least had really bad FPU's. The framerate hog in NR2002 is more floating point performance than graphics, no? Jason

>They show it on SpeedVision...:-), or so I've been told...:-( Funny, I've never seen it on there. Then again, I almost never see Speed Channel anymore. I CAN'T get it at college, I have to go home to watch it... ----------------------------------------- Dan Belcher Webmaster, http://simcrash.fameflame.dk

[email hidden] (Jason Moyer) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> On 14 Nov 2002 10:25:18 -0800, [email hidden] (Nick) wrote: > > >All three consoles could run NR2002 (remember 640x480 is pretty maxed > >out on a TV) perfectly fine, > > I was under the impression that the PS2 and Gamecube at least had > really bad FPU's. The framerate hog in NR2002 is more floating point > performance than graphics, no? > > Jason

It is the integer performance of the PS2 which is lacking, the FPU is better than a P3. I couldn't find any GFLOPS figures for the Pentium 4, but Intel chips have always been poor on floating point operations. The FPU in the PS2 is somewhere between P3/P4 in performance, but the PS2 is superscalar, while the P4 uses SSE (SIMD) to accomplish the same kind of thing. The P3 has no such inherent or additional hardware. Here is something I found at: http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,15038,pg,1,00.asp -quote- How adept is it? According to MicroDesign Resources, the processor can handle 6.2 gigaflops at 300MHz. A single gigaflop equals one billion floating-point operations per second. MDR says that makes the chip two times faster than a 733-MHz Pentium III and 15 times faster than a 400-MHz Celeron... -endquote- (I snipped the polygon counts because they are always vastly exaggerated - 75 million polys per second? I think not, lol!) Interestingly, a 733MHz Celeron is in the xbox, so floating point performance in the PS2 is somewhere between 2 and 7 times faster. I don't want to start a PS2/xbox/PC argument, because I don't care. Of course, this all comes from the internet and could all be lies... I don't personally know or care which processor has bigger numbers, all I care is that the PS2 can handle games like NR2002. My 500Mhz Celeron could handle it, so a chip with a FPU more than ten times faster would have no trouble at all. Incidentally, I *think* the GameCube is faster still than the PS2. The graphics are calculated completely separately. The PS2 EE doesn't do any graphics calculations, because the PS2 has two Vector units VU0/VU1 which are designed with that function in mind. I think SSX only uses one of these Vector units for graphics, and uses the other to do realtime Dolby Digital positioning and stuff, so you can see how powerful these guys are. Plus, output at 640x480 doesn't push them very much on each frame, so they can focus on FPS and fluidity, rather than individual frame quality needed for 1280x1024 or some other high resolution needed on a 17" monitor. Whoa, that turned into a real long post...

CART looks like they are going to collapse to me. Very unfortunate, but that's life. Personally, what I would really like to see Papy do is take the game content from both Grand Prix Legends and NASCAR Legends, dump it into the new engine, update things just enough to take advantage of the new engine but not so much as to change the core gameplay, and sell it as a package. Think of it, GPL essentially as we know it, but with higher track detail and higher poly count cars than even the current add-ons made possible due to T&L support, and more detailed physics including aero, brake heat, tire wear, and their latest tire model. Plus I still want to drive the Charger Daytona in a modern game. ;o) "Robert Upward" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sMrA9.77281$[email hidden]... > I got to thinking that if CART was smart, (and there's no sayingthey > are), and they're still around next season, they'd contact Papy andhave > them tweak the physics model of N2003/FE to represent a Champ car(however > that may be harder then I imagine). Have them brew up the CARTtracks, and > then release it as Champ car 2003 (or something to that effect). It'sa > win/win/win situation. Papy would be able to use it alreadyresearched & > programmed engine for another release therefor getting a little morereturn > on their original investment. CART would certainly benefit from theadded > exposure and increased fan awareness of the series, and as the publicwould > get a great open wheel sim, with online capabilities (which we really > haven't got yet), and some cross over of tracks between the two games(once > the better minds than mine have figured it out) a la Nascar 1/IndycarRacing > 2 way back in the day. > > Bobby > >

>. Think of it as translating > it from English to Japanese :-) That is how I took it. I guess what I was trying to get at was that a PS2 wouldn't do something then none of the others would get it. Basically if the same company had done the PC version of Thunder as did the consoles then all the versions would have had the career mode kind of thing. While they are different "languages" they would still be translating the same thing to all them. MadDAWG

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> > As a matter of fact, this very evening, THURSDAY the 14th...we get our > first showing. From the speed channel website: > > 9:00 p.m. (ET) - Australian V8 Supercars > > SPEED is airing the largest national motorsport event ever to be held in > Australia Tonight. The V8 Supercar Championship Series is based on a > modified version of Australia's popular Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon > cars. Tune in TONIGHT to witness firsthand the fierce rivalry between Holden > and Ford, which has reached into the heart of the Australian psyche and > ensures the longevity of the category and the continued appeal for fans. See > it all on SPEED Channel! Tonight: Round one, the Clipsal 500, from Adelaide, > South Australia. > > sorry Goy...I tried to find a chap witha DVD burner...but no luck.

....:-) Some day I'm gonna get me the biggest effing dish I can afford and see if I can get some decent motorsports on TV, Scandinavia, and Norway in particular, are not known for their excellent motorsports coverage..... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

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> > Some day I'm gonna get me the biggest effing dish I can afford and see > if I can get some decent motorsports on TV, Scandinavia, and Norway in > particular, are not known for their excellent motorsports coverage..... > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy

That's odd too since the Viking lands have produced so many great motorsport heros. There's the F1 Finns, the Touring car Sweedes, the Great Rallye drivers. sorry I can't sort out all their names, but MOST of them all end the same en. :) dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> > > > > Some day I'm gonna get me the biggest effing dish I can afford and see > > if I can get some decent motorsports on TV, Scandinavia, and Norway in > > particular, are not known for their excellent motorsports coverage..... > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > (uncle) Goy > > That's odd too since the Viking lands have produced so many great > motorsport heros. There's the F1 Finns, the Touring car Sweedes, the Great > Rallye drivers. sorry I can't sort out all their names, but MOST of them > all end the same > en. :) > dave henrie

Notice the lack of "Norway" in your post there Dave :-) Motorsports just aren't that big here, the Swedes have a half decent weekly program called "Pole Position", I get Swedish TV here so I try to catch that one as often as I can, and they also have a half decent F1 coverage on race day, unlike the Norwegian coverage which is pure and utter crap, Harald Huysman is no better as a "expert commentator" than he was as a driver and some of his comments makes you realize why he never quite made it The fact that I have to turn to Swedish TV to find out how Thomas Rustad is doing in the ETCC (not too good) speaks volumes about the state of motorsports coverage over here On the upside, with Petter Solberg's recent success in the WRC we're at least getting some WRC coverage there, usually a 30 min recap each evening of an event Motorsport in Norway has for far too long been synonymous with Rally Cross and that @�$#�%&@�$ Martin Schanche, I breathed a sigh of relief the day he retired....only to learn that he's now into Politics and he's just as annoying there as he was on/off the track Can't speak for Finnland as they're not that close to us, but in Norway you becaome a success in motorsports on your own, media isn't going to do squat for you, and without media...no sponsors, or at least not a whole lot Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--