NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

I've been playing alot of NASCAR HEAT, but I finally got around to playing NASCAR 4. I picked this up a couple of weeks ago, but my computer has been down so I really didn't play it much for more than a few minutes to see if it woudl run. I tried it out tonight and something just rubbed me the wrong way about it, and I uninstalled it after playing it for a few hours. Some things I don't like: - Sparse options - No tire wear or gas options for those of us who don't want to spend a couple hours racing - No speed sensitivity settings, except in the core.ini file, and then it only reduces the low-sensitivity speed. I thought real NASCAR cars had power steering? - No "skip to the racing" startup like HEAT. I just find a lap that doesn't count boring. And I always end up wrecking during the pace lap. Something is wrong with the way AI cars drive. It seems like they really don't pay any attention. - Two difficulty settings, arcade and simulation- with nothing in between - With 3D sound enabled, I get horrible loud pops or scratchy sounds when I hit the wall sometimes. I'm using a Philips Dynamic Edge soundcard. It works OK with just stereo sound, though. Some things I like - Uses hardware T&L, NASCAR HEAT doesn't. Consequently it seems like there's less popup and faster framerates in N4. - 32 bit color. Not only more color depth, but I can get antialiasing to work with my video card. Now, this game may be a blast to play in multiplayer, and it's a well respected game, but in singleplayer offline racing, it just seems lacking. Graphics seems faster and more fluid than NASCAR HEAT on my Athlon 2400 and Radeon 9700, but the number of gameplay options aren't quite as good. I downloaded the Nascar Thunder 2003 demo to try out and I actually thought that it was enjoyable enough. I liked the feel of the menus and the options- I'm surprised so many reviewers were hard on it. It sucks there's no career mode like the PS2, though, but maybe if it gets a good enough PC reception they will add it next year or as a patch. I'm betting the publishers/devs thought (perhaps correctly?) a career mode would have appealed less to PC gamers where internet gaming gets more of the spotlight. Often the silent majority doesn't get heard. On consoles it seems to be a trend, on the other hand, to have career based games. So is NASCAR 2003 going to be any different than NASCAR 4 in the playability, or should I get Nascar Thunder in a few months (my pocketbook is still stinging from a mandatory computer upgrade when my motherboard gave up the ghost)?

Try NR2002 if you like. The feel and physics are updated from "4". 2003 will be updated again. Marc "e f" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I've been playing alot of NASCAR HEAT, but I finally got around to > playing NASCAR 4. I picked this up a couple of weeks ago, but my > computer has been down so I really didn't play it much for more than a > few minutes to see if it woudl run. I tried it out tonight and > something just rubbed me the wrong way about it, and I uninstalled it > after playing it for a few hours. > > Some things I don't like: > > - Sparse options > - No tire wear or gas options for those of us who don't want to > spend a couple hours racing > - No speed sensitivity settings, except in the core.ini file, and > then it only reduces the low-sensitivity speed. I thought real NASCAR > cars had power steering? > - No "skip to the racing" startup like HEAT. I just find a lap that > doesn't count boring. And I always end up wrecking during the pace > lap. Something is wrong with the way AI cars drive. It seems like > they really don't pay any attention. > - Two difficulty settings, arcade and simulation- with nothing in > between > - With 3D sound enabled, I get horrible loud pops or scratchy sounds > when I hit the wall sometimes. I'm using a Philips Dynamic Edge > soundcard. It works OK with just stereo sound, though. > > Some things I like > > - Uses hardware T&L, NASCAR HEAT doesn't. Consequently it seems like > there's less popup and faster framerates in N4. > - 32 bit color. Not only more color depth, but I can get antialiasing > to work with my video card. > > Now, this game may be a blast to play in multiplayer, and it's a > well respected game, but in singleplayer offline racing, it just seems > lacking. Graphics seems faster and more fluid than NASCAR HEAT on my > Athlon 2400 and Radeon 9700, but the number of gameplay options aren't > quite as good. > > I downloaded the Nascar Thunder 2003 demo to try out and I actually > thought that it was enjoyable enough. I liked the feel of the menus > and the options- I'm surprised so many reviewers were hard on it. It > sucks there's no career mode like the PS2, though, but maybe if it > gets a good enough PC reception they will add it next year or as a > patch. I'm betting the publishers/devs thought (perhaps correctly?) a > career mode would have appealed less to PC gamers where internet > gaming gets more of the spotlight. Often the silent majority doesn't > get heard. On consoles it seems to be a trend, on the other hand, to > have career based games. > > So is NASCAR 2003 going to be any different than NASCAR 4 in the > playability, or should I get Nascar Thunder in a few months (my > pocketbook is still stinging from a mandatory computer upgrade when my > motherboard gave up the ghost)?

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > I've been playing alot of NASCAR HEAT, but I finally got around to > playing NASCAR 4. I picked this up a couple of weeks ago, but my > computer has been down so I really didn't play it much for more than a > few minutes to see if it woudl run. I tried it out tonight and > something just rubbed me the wrong way about it, and I uninstalled it > after playing it for a few hours. Hmmm, just a few hours? And only Nascar Racing 4? You're a version behind. > Some things I don't like: > > - Sparse options What do you mean? > - No tire wear or gas options for those of us who don't want to > spend a couple hours racing It's been that way since NR3... > - No speed sensitivity settings, except in the core.ini file, and > then it only reduces the low-sensitivity speed. I thought real NASCAR > cars had power steering? I don't understand what you're looking for. > - No "skip to the racing" startup like HEAT. I just find a lap that > doesn't count boring. And I always end up wrecking during the pace > lap. Something is wrong with the way AI cars drive. It seems like > they really don't pay any attention. You can choose not to do a full pace lap. The pace lap will begin on the back straight (or before the final turn on a road course). > - Two difficulty settings, arcade and simulation- with nothing in > between And your point is? > - With 3D sound enabled, I get horrible loud pops or scratchy sounds > when I hit the wall sometimes. I'm using a Philips Dynamic Edge > soundcard. It works OK with just stereo sound, though. Get a new sound card. > Now, this game may be a blast to play in multiplayer, and it's a > well respected game, but in singleplayer offline racing, it just seems > lacking. Graphics seems faster and more fluid than NASCAR HEAT on my > Athlon 2400 and Radeon 9700, but the number of gameplay options aren't > quite as good. That's because it's not as much a game as Heat is. > I downloaded the Nascar Thunder 2003 demo to try out and I actually > thought that it was enjoyable enough. I liked the feel of the menus > and the options- I'm surprised so many reviewers were hard on it. See, that's that problem. You're not a sim driver. You're a "gamer". Gamers will never be happy with the Papy's Nascar Racing series because they don't want realism settings. They want twin-50's on the hood and a grenade launcher.

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> It > sucks there's no career mode like the PS2, though, but maybe if it > gets a good enough PC reception they will add it next year or as a > patch. I'm betting the publishers/devs thought (perhaps correctly?) a > career mode would have appealed less to PC gamers where internet > gaming gets more of the spotlight. Often the silent majority doesn't > get heard. On consoles it seems to be a trend, on the other hand, to > have career based games. > > So is NASCAR 2003 going to be any different than NASCAR 4 in the > playability, or should I get Nascar Thunder in a few months (my > pocketbook is still stinging from a mandatory computer upgrade when my > motherboard gave up the ghost)?

Go ahead and get Thunder. That way, we don't have to listen to incesant whining about the AI being "lacking", or about the lack of "gameplay options".

I see your points and some are quite valid EXCEPT for the fact that N4, and NR2002, and assumably NR2003TFE are meant to be simulators, so they are attempting to simualte the Nascar expereince as best they can, not create an arcady type game. IF you don't like N4, you probably win't like NR2002, or NR2003 when it comes out either, as they are the same just more refined, and they didn't add anymore arcade type functions. Although if you choose quick race, it does eliminate some of the realism things you don't seem to like. -- Biz "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and the....." - Ash e f <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've been playing alot of NASCAR HEAT, but I finally got around to > playing NASCAR 4. I picked this up a couple of weeks ago, but my > computer has been down so I really didn't play it much for more than a > few minutes to see if it woudl run. I tried it out tonight and > something just rubbed me the wrong way about it, and I uninstalled it > after playing it for a few hours. > > Some things I don't like: > > - Sparse options > - No tire wear or gas options for those of us who don't want to > spend a couple hours racing > - No speed sensitivity settings, except in the core.ini file, and > then it only reduces the low-sensitivity speed. I thought real NASCAR > cars had power steering? > - No "skip to the racing" startup like HEAT. I just find a lap that > doesn't count boring. And I always end up wrecking during the pace > lap. Something is wrong with the way AI cars drive. It seems like > they really don't pay any attention. > - Two difficulty settings, arcade and simulation- with nothing in > between > - With 3D sound enabled, I get horrible loud pops or scratchy sounds > when I hit the wall sometimes. I'm using a Philips Dynamic Edge > soundcard. It works OK with just stereo sound, though. > > Some things I like > > - Uses hardware T&L, NASCAR HEAT doesn't. Consequently it seems like > there's less popup and faster framerates in N4. > - 32 bit color. Not only more color depth, but I can get antialiasing > to work with my video card. > > Now, this game may be a blast to play in multiplayer, and it's a > well respected game, but in singleplayer offline racing, it just seems > lacking. Graphics seems faster and more fluid than NASCAR HEAT on my > Athlon 2400 and Radeon 9700, but the number of gameplay options aren't > quite as good. > > I downloaded the Nascar Thunder 2003 demo to try out and I actually > thought that it was enjoyable enough. I liked the feel of the menus > and the options- I'm surprised so many reviewers were hard on it. It > sucks there's no career mode like the PS2, though, but maybe if it > gets a good enough PC reception they will add it next year or as a > patch. I'm betting the publishers/devs thought (perhaps correctly?) a > career mode would have appealed less to PC gamers where internet > gaming gets more of the spotlight. Often the silent majority doesn't > get heard. On consoles it seems to be a trend, on the other hand, to > have career based games. > > So is NASCAR 2003 going to be any different than NASCAR 4 in the > playability, or should I get Nascar Thunder in a few months (my > pocketbook is still stinging from a mandatory computer upgrade when my > motherboard gave up the ghost)?

Sorry for re-arranging your message, but it makes replying easier. "e f" wrote...

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> I've been playing alot of NASCAR HEAT, but I finally > got around to playing NASCAR 4. I picked this up a > couple of weeks ago, but my computer has been down > so I really didn't play it much for more than a > few minutes to see if it woudl run. I tried it out > tonight and something just rubbed me the wrong way > about it, and I uninstalled it after playing it for > a few hours. > > So is NASCAR 2003 going to be any different than NASCAR 4 in the > playability, or should I get Nascar Thunder in a few months (my > pocketbook is still stinging from a mandatory computer upgrade when my > motherboard gave up the ghost)?

N4 did present a fair number of well-documented single player issues, so it's rather surprising you chose to buy it rather than it's sequel, NASCAR Racing 2002 Season (or N2002 or N2k2 as it's commonly referred to over here) which has been out since late February (I think). Apart from being the better overall game (general execution/graphics/framerate consistency) a lot of the single player issues with AI and pace car were resolved (also by subsequent patch). There remain some perceived inaccuracies with regard to car control at the very limit and aerodynamics, the latter only really affecting online play. Seeing as N2k2's successor, N2003 promises to be even better, I think it's safe to say it will seriously outclass N4. It might be a good idea to consult RAS before buying a simulation rather than coming here to complain about it afterwards. You could do worse than buying NT2003 if you don't really care about total realism and the online aspect, IMO. > Some things I don't like: > > - Sparse options Eh? Controller configuration is the most competent in just about any sim, you can set/tweak graphics quality and sound and get to create modify your player and his car. What further options would you like to see? > - No tire wear or gas options for those of us who > don't want to spend a couple hours racing. Granted, accellerated wear would, IMO, be a fairly easy to implement knod towards the "not quite so serious" PC racer. > - No speed sensitivity settings, except in the core.ini > file, and then it only reduces the low-sensitivity speed. > I thought real NASCAR cars had power steering? They do, but even so the range of speeds on an oval is low and the low speed overide was only ever intented to compensate for the lack of physical lock on PC wheel/pedal combo's so as to get the car in and out of the pits (low speed cornering). On the road courses... let's put it this way: I really enjoy the way the cars handle on those, but the response is nowhere near precise or direct enough to warrant speed sensitivity on the wheel. > - No "skip to the racing" startup like HEAT. I just find > a lap that doesn't count boring. And I always end up > wrecking during the pace lap. That's hardly the game's fault, is it? -Come on... how hard is driving a car at 45mph? Your granny can do that. Even in N4 the AI did a good job of pacing to the first green. I agree that because they all stay exactly lined up and allways have perfect launches it's not nearly as interesting as doing the same against human players online, but then again offline racing in general isn't. Heat was completely unplayable unless one had auto driving/pitting under yellow turned on as the AI would simply run the player over. N4 for was pretty bad at some tracks, but not *that* bad. A patch reputedly fixes Heat's woes, but I haven't gotten around to trying that yet. > Something is wrong with the way AI cars drive. It > seems like they really don't pay any attention. Largely fixed in N2k2. > - Two difficulty settings, arcade and simulation- with > nothing in between There's an ample selection of driving aids and AI strenght is on a sliding scale, it just doesn't come with labels. Over here, we tend to judge drivers according to how they are, not by what setting they got their game at. > - With 3D sound enabled, I get horrible loud pops or > scratchy sounds when I hit the wall sometimes. I'm > using a Philips Dynamic Edge soundcard. It works OK > with just stereo sound, though. Again: N2k2... Although, suddenly, I'm not sure whether sound issues remain or not... I'm sure if there are, somebody here will set me straight.

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> Some things I like > > - Uses hardware T&L, NASCAR HEAT doesn't. Consequently > it seems like there's less popup and faster framerates > in N4. > - 32 bit color. Not only more color depth, but I can get > antialiasing to work with my video card.

I'm not sold on 32-bit colour, nor FSAA, but I'm an fps junkie. > Now, this game may be a blast to play in multiplayer, and > it's a well respected game, but in singleplayer offline > racing, it just seems lacking. Graphics seems faster and > more fluid than NASCAR HEAT on my Athlon 2400 and Radeon > 9700, but the number of gameplay options aren't quite as > good. Again: why chose N4 over N2k2? > > I downloaded the Nascar Thunder 2003 demo to try out and > I actually thought that it was enjoyable enough. I liked > the feel of the menus and the options- I'm surprised so > many reviewers were hard on it. That's actually the impression I got from the reviews, competent interfaceand enjoyable enough, just not as good a simulation as N2k2 and with limited online playability.

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> It sucks there's no career mode like the PS2, though, but > maybe if it gets a good enough PC reception they will add > it next year or as a patch. I'm betting the publishers/devs > thought (perhaps correctly?) a career mode would have > appealed less to PC gamers where internet gaming gets more > of the spotlight. Often the silent majority doesn't get > heard. On consoles it seems to be a trend, on the other > hand, to have career based games.

I do think there has been an "overtendency" to focus on the online aspect in games in general. Now the online aspect is well established I think we're beginning to see a trend to take care of the offline game more. Which is a good thing, obviously, although I personally don't care about a single player career mode. Jan. =---

You just named all the things that seperates it from an arcade game. As for the sound, that card was not available when the sim was made. Hard to support the future. -- Mike Grandy www.precision-racing.com "e f" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've been playing alot of NASCAR HEAT, but I finally got around to > playing NASCAR 4. I picked this up a couple of weeks ago, but my > computer has been down so I really didn't play it much for more than a > few minutes to see if it woudl run. I tried it out tonight and > something just rubbed me the wrong way about it, and I uninstalled it > after playing it for a few hours. > > Some things I don't like: > > - Sparse options > - No tire wear or gas options for those of us who don't want to > spend a couple hours racing > - No speed sensitivity settings, except in the core.ini file, and > then it only reduces the low-sensitivity speed. I thought real NASCAR > cars had power steering? > - No "skip to the racing" startup like HEAT. I just find a lap that > doesn't count boring. And I always end up wrecking during the pace > lap. Something is wrong with the way AI cars drive. It seems like > they really don't pay any attention. > - Two difficulty settings, arcade and simulation- with nothing in > between > - With 3D sound enabled, I get horrible loud pops or scratchy sounds > when I hit the wall sometimes. I'm using a Philips Dynamic Edge > soundcard. It works OK with just stereo sound, though. > > Some things I like > > - Uses hardware T&L, NASCAR HEAT doesn't. Consequently it seems like > there's less popup and faster framerates in N4. > - 32 bit color. Not only more color depth, but I can get antialiasing > to work with my video card. > > Now, this game may be a blast to play in multiplayer, and it's a > well respected game, but in singleplayer offline racing, it just seems > lacking. Graphics seems faster and more fluid than NASCAR HEAT on my > Athlon 2400 and Radeon 9700, but the number of gameplay options aren't > quite as good. > > I downloaded the Nascar Thunder 2003 demo to try out and I actually > thought that it was enjoyable enough. I liked the feel of the menus > and the options- I'm surprised so many reviewers were hard on it. It > sucks there's no career mode like the PS2, though, but maybe if it > gets a good enough PC reception they will add it next year or as a > patch. I'm betting the publishers/devs thought (perhaps correctly?) a > career mode would have appealed less to PC gamers where internet > gaming gets more of the spotlight. Often the silent majority doesn't > get heard. On consoles it seems to be a trend, on the other hand, to > have career based games. > > So is NASCAR 2003 going to be any different than NASCAR 4 in the > playability, or should I get Nascar Thunder in a few months (my > pocketbook is still stinging from a mandatory computer upgrade when my > motherboard gave up the ghost)?

John Simmons wrote: > Those Diplomacy 1-0-1 classes you've been taking lately has done wonders for you John :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" --Groucho Marx--

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > See, that's that problem. You're not a sim driver. You're a > "gamer". Gamers will never be happy with the Papy's Nascar Racing > series because they don't want realism settings. They want twin-50's > on the hood and a grenade launcher. I resent that, as both a dedicated GPL/GTR2002 racer *and* a guy who is looking forward to Doom 3 and Deus Ex 2 more than NR2003.

In article <ast25v$ul4tn$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > See, that's that problem. You're not a sim driver. You're a > > "gamer". Gamers will never be happy with the Papy's Nascar Racing > > series because they don't want realism settings. They want twin-50's > > on the hood and a grenade launcher. > > I resent that, as both a dedicated GPL/GTR2002 racer *and* a guy who is > looking forward to Doom 3 and Deus Ex 2 more than NR2003. >

Yeah, but the difference is that you don't try to blur the line between "gaming" and "sim driving". The line is distinct and cannot be obfuscated. When you're driving in any of Papy's racing sims, you can't reasonably expect flowery bells and whistles, and whining about their absence is fairly pointless (and just plain annoys the sim drivers).

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> > > John Simmons wrote: > > > > Those Diplomacy 1-0-1 classes you've been taking lately has done wonders > for you John :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels" > --Groucho Marx-- >

Yeah, in that class, we learned not to start out with name calling and overt threats of bodily harm. I think I've come a long way. :)

On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:53:03 -0000, "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I resent that, as both a dedicated GPL/GTR2002 racer *and* a guy who is >looking forward to Doom 3 and Deus Ex 2 more than NR2003. Don't forget Thief 3, assuming it's still being made. GPL 76 or a Papy rally sim would possibly be the only things I'd look forward to more than T3 and DE2.. =) Jason

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:53:03 -0000, "Nick" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I resent that, as both a dedicated GPL/GTR2002 racer *and* a guy who is > >looking forward to Doom 3 and Deus Ex 2 more than NR2003. > > Don't forget Thief 3, assuming it's still being made. GPL 76 or a > Papy rally sim would possibly be the only things I'd look forward to > more than T3 and DE2.. =)

Yes! Thief 3 is still in development, and it is sharing the same 3D engine and core code as Deus Ex 2 (both are being coded at Ion Storm Austin). The realtime shadows look *almost* as good as Doom 3. Finally developers are focusing on the lighting in games, which is the one thing which makes a scene look realistic, rather than just pumping more and more polygons into our graphics cards... BTW I think there are videos of the new Deus Ex 2 / Thief 3 technology at http://www.planetdeusex.com/dx2/files/movies/ Nick.

Taken from www.planetdeusex.com/dx2/ The Technology of Deus Ex 2 On June 20th, 2001, Eidos and ION announced that Deus Ex 2 would be developed using the next-generation Unreal Engine technology. This engine, in development by Epic Games (creators of Unreal and Unreal Tournament), is constantly evolving as the programmers at Epic add functionality. At the time of this writing it contains code from many different sources, including HumanHead's RUNE, Unreal Tournament for the PC and the PS2, Unreal Warfare, and Unreal 2. A fair bit of information has been released, and while none of it is directly tied to Deus Ex 2 it demonstrates how powerful the technology is. By taking a look at some of the features, we can at the very least get a feel for the kind of things that the Deus Ex 2 team MIGHT put into the game. Additionally, be sure to take a look at the images Epic has on the Unreal Engine News site. While these are not images from Deus Ex 2, they still show the potential for killer graphics. a.. Increased World Size to +/- 131072 for each of X, Y and Z. b.. Static meshes can be converted back into a brush c.. Static mesh vertices are raytraced at build time. Hardware lighting used for dynamic lights d.. static meshes can have per-polygon collision e.. Hardware brushes - allows scenes of 150-200 times more polygons than what users saw in Unreal Tournament at excellent levels of performance using hardware T&L f.. Terrain, including detail textures and 16-bit resolution heightmaps g.. Skeletal animation, including tools and even skeletons including 85 bones just in the face, specifically for facial animation. h.. import textured geometry from 3D Studio Max saved in the ASE format i.. Distance fog j.. Specular Highlights k.. complex objects can now appear many times in a level, but only appear once in memory l.. Volumes, which allow for true moving water, arbitrarily shaped triggers, and localized physics. m.. new particle system with dynamic influences and collision (you can now shoot a projectile through smoke and have the smoke smoothly and realistically dissipate) n.. texture sizes of 2048x2048 o.. a new cinematic tool, entitled Matinee p.. autoaiming code with new features like a 180 degree turn button and turn to nearest enemy button for novice users (taken from the PS2 version of Unreal Tournament) q.. DX8 manages texture memory r.. improved contrast, allowing end users to set brightness, contrast and gamma within the runtime s.. improved tools for AI pathing and additional AI improvements including: ladder support, true crouching, improved AI sight & hearing, increased AI performance, improved navigation t.. restructured game/actor class hierarchy u.. Multiple editor enhancements including: new texture alignment tools (cylindrical and spherical mapping options, w00), 2D shaper enhancements, the ability to use your mouse to raise and lower the height of selected terrain areas, and a polygon mode that allows brushes to be created by defining a shape and then performing an extrusion on it And now, some DX2 specifics. AI The Artificial Intelligence for the game is being strengthened greatly by AI Programmer Paul Tozour, who is working with other AI-experienced Ion people, like Doug Church to put together an overarching AI system that works for DX2 and Thief 3. Missing portions like noticing dead bodies, and search patterns (as opposed to automatically knowing where the player is) have been added. At the root of this is an alert level system similar to Thief's, but with more distinction between evidences. Couple this with over 30,000 AI "barks" (lines of dialogue), and you have an extremely convincing illusion of intelligence. Various other enhancements are planned, such as "social contexts" (different reactions in a crowded public lobby and in a restricted area), and a morale setting (kill 19 of 20 guys, and the last one will probably not stand up to you.) Eyecandy "DX2 will feature a much higher poly count for architecture and models than players saw in the first Deus Ex game. Plus, the models are fully boned and are being animated with a skeletal IK system, allowing for more animations and higher quality (motion captured) animations. The effects are really satisfying and reach into many areas of the game, improving it in both high-impact and subtle ways. For instance, we always wanted characters to have facial expressions, but could not afford it until now; we believe this feature alone will seriously improve the quality of the game's conversations and character interactions." (comment by Harvey Smith in Deus Ex 2 Update) Weather FX have been mentioned as well, although nothing is known. Physics Havok's real-time physics engine has been licensed by ION, allowing an extremely high level of interactivity with objects. Every different type of object will be assigned a mass (and even a heat level for infrared sensors), and bodies are "rag-dolled" upon death, so corpses will flip-flop all over the place, tumble squidlike down stairs or fall and hang limply over railings--interactivity possibilities unending. Virtually any object can be used as a weapon or a distraction, with the intent of allowing the player to find his/her own solution to a given problem. Lighting and Sound A custom in-house lighting engine is also being developed by ISA. This lighting lends itself to various types of stealth gameplay (spotting a guard around a corner by his shadow, for example). Coupled with the physics engine, even more opportunities are available: knock over a few barrels near a lightsource, and you have yourself a nice shadowy place to hide. "No single shadow in our world is static," says Harvey Smith. Just make sure the noise of the falling barrels doesn't alert the guards: a custom sound propogation engine is being developed as well, similar to Thief's. This sound engine will allow for more realistic sound propogation, such as muffling the sound of your actions when you shut a door. ----- Deus Ex 2: Project Update 11/13/01 Deus Ex 2--Project Update Intro DX2 is now well underway. We've been quiet for a while, but now we'd like to provide you with a project status update and we'd like to make a statement or two regarding the nature of the game and the development team. Project Status We've been working on parts of the DX2 design doc--an html site on our local network--since the end of DX1. It links to a bunch of diverse sections on aspects of the game ranging from unit ecology, interface, fiction, concept art, et al. Meanwhile, every discipline on the team is grinding away. We have some really interesting game units planned...including plot-relevant characters, military troops from the various factions from our high-tech future, an array of bot classes and a selection of synthetically-engineered creatures. We want to provide the player with some intriguing new gameplay tools, as well as some that will be familiar to DX1 players. On top of that, of course, we're trying to continue the story set up by the extrapolated conspiracy-theory future of the first game. Until recently, the materials we've produced (maps, artwork and engine features) were either still in developmental stages or they were working fairly well alone and had not yet been completely integrated. We've been running around in the maps, experimenting with different interface configurations. Just today, we met an integration milestone, pulling a bunch of these elements together for the first time. Having finally crept out of the dark ages of early concept work, project setup, design planning and team building, we're nearing an end-of-year critical milestone in which all of our core tech is in place in (at least) a rudimentary stage. Next year should be all about implementing our plans for specific game areas and situations: building out missions, writing more dialogue, tuning weapons and tools, establishing enemy behaviors and such. The Game Deus Ex is a hybrid RPG/Adventure/Action game that allows the player to solve all problems in multiple ways. DX2 will adhere to these same ideals, with some significant enhancements based on our much stronger understanding of what made the first game work. From an RPG character standpoint, we've planned more character-building choices (the player-character can be optionally male or female), we've unified some of the game systems and added some interesting player-character capabilities. We feel like we now have a much clearer idea about which aspects of DX1 were important to players, what worked well and what didn't. The game environment itself in DX2 is something that has us completely excited. Our plans include a higher-fidelity world, with weather, greater object density, more capable (and clearer) unit behaviors and a deeper physics/object-interaction simulation. Fictionally speaking, DX2 is set on Earth in a post-DX1 future. We're updating some of the familiar organizations and characters, while adding some completely new 'players' as well. While DX2 will be the same type of game as the original Deus Ex (an immersive sim), this time around we have some significant technological advantages. Our studio is working on both Thief 3 and DX2. While those projects are different in setting, vibe, gameplay focus and in other ways, they also have a lot in common. So we're attempting to co-author as much technology as possible. Both projects will (at least in part) share technologies and resources related to AI, lighting, sound propagation, editing tools, motion capture, physics and others. In all of these areas, both teams are also tweaking things for the different needs of each game--that way Thief 3 and DX2 will ultimately each have a unique feel. DX2 will feature a much higher poly count for architecture and models than players saw in the first Deus Ex game. Plus, the models are fully boned and are being animated with a skeletal IK system, allowing for more animations and higher quality (motion captured) animations. The effects are really satisfying and reach into many areas of the game, improving it in both high-impact and subtle ways. For instance, we always wanted characters to have facial expressions, but could not afford it until now; we believe this feature alone will seriously improve the quality of the game's conversations and character interactions. Creating maps and missions for DX2 is similar in some ways to the process we used for Deus Ex, but it's different in some key ways. This time, the mission designers are roughing out areas and an art team is adding high-poly architectural detail. This way, we get the same DX-style game, but with much more convincing (and hopefully more immersive) environmental visuals. With regard to the interface, we're working on ways to make the game easier to use, more elegant. As always, we want the player to forget that he is playing a game. We feel like we learned a lot of things while working on Deus Ex that will directly improve DX2. The Development Team The last year has seen the studio grow to two teams. We've been recruiting very carefully, looking for people who we feel can contribute in a high-impact way and who share our design aesthetic. Aside from working on Thief 3 and DX2, we've been providing ongoing support for Deus Ex 1 and working on projects like Deus Ex: The Conspiracy (our PS2 version of the game). At some point in the near future, we hope to launch a website that includes bios of all team members, including all the new people. (Our art director is even creating caricatures of everyone.) Until then, rest assured that DX2 is staffed with the same core design and writing teams and the same audio engineer from Deus Ex. We've also added a bunch of high-end artists from other game companies, including friends with whom some of us have previously worked. The DX2 programming staff is a mix of engineers from Origin, Looking Glass and other studios. (Their previous games include installments from the Wing Commander series, Terra Nova, System Shock 2 and Thief 1 and 2.) Everyone provides design input--an approach made possible because we've hired a bunch of people who specifically love games like Deus Ex. Endnote and Screenshot Descriptions Thanks for reading. We still have a ways to go, but we'll be releasing more information and materials as we go. The Deus Ex community has been really amazing--a very committed group that seems to resonate with our design vibe. It's one of our primary concerns that fans of the first game are happy with DX2. Special thanks go out to Planet Deus Ex, TTLG, DeusExMachina, DeusExIncarnate, DXNation and all the other great sites that have supported Deus Ex and Thief. Also, high praise to all the people working on Deus Ex mods--we await your work with great enthusiasm. -------- Screenshot DX2_phase2greasel.jpg: Concept art for the "Phase 2" greasel. (The original version of the creature will be returning as well.) The Phase 2 version represents an "advancement" by VersaLife, one of the biotech companies. [Compare to Phase 1 concept] Screenshot DX2_karkian1.jpg: Concept art for the original version of the karkian. The higher poly count allowed for models and the skeletal animation bones should allow us to include some kinetic movement of the overlapping plates on its back. Screenshot DX2_AquaticSecBot.jpg: Concept art for the underwater security bot. We've planned for more water gameplay, including stealth and light/darkness play in aquatic environments.

>"e f" <[email hidden]> wrote > - Sparse options Compared to Nascar Heat? LMAO. Anyway, Nascar Racing 4 will be soon two generations old. <snip a bunch of arcade-type options he wants> Stay with Nascar Thunder, it's made for people who don't research realism. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:l9sI9.10849$[email hidden]...

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> >"e f" <[email hidden]> wrote > > - Sparse options > > Compared to Nascar Heat? LMAO. Anyway, Nascar Racing 4 will be soon two > generations old. > > > <snip a bunch of arcade-type options he wants> > > Stay with Nascar Thunder, it's made for people who don't research realism. >

Yeah, not 'Made By Gamers, For Gamers', but 'Made By People Who Don't Research Realism, For People Who Don't Research Realism'. Kinda catchy, don't ya think?

John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > > Hmmm, just a few hours? And only Nascar Racing 4? You're a version > behind. > Why don't they just label them accordingly. Nascar 2001, 2002, etc., then? > > Some things I don't like: > > > > - Sparse options > > What do you mean? > I mean the game doesn't have many options or gameplay modes. > > - No tire wear or gas options for those of us who don't want to > > spend a couple hours racing > > It's been that way since NR3... > And does N2002 change this, or will 2003 have it? To me, this wouldn't be terribly hard to do, yet it's not in the game. Why not?

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> > - No "skip to the racing" startup like HEAT. I just find a lap that > > doesn't count boring. And I always end up wrecking during the pace > > lap. Something is wrong with the way AI cars drive. It seems like > > they really don't pay any attention. > > You can choose not to do a full pace lap. The pace lap will begin on > the back straight (or before the final turn on a road course). >

Why not just have an option to start out driving, though, like NASCAR HEAT? > > - With 3D sound enabled, I get horrible loud pops or scratchy sounds > > when I hit the wall sometimes. I'm using a Philips Dynamic Edge > > soundcard. It works OK with just stereo sound, though. > > Get a new sound card. > I did, this one is new. The Philips works for every other game out there, alot better than the Creative Labs card I had.

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> > Now, this game may be a blast to play in multiplayer, and it's a > > well respected game, but in singleplayer offline racing, it just seems > > lacking. Graphics seems faster and more fluid than NASCAR HEAT on my > > Athlon 2400 and Radeon 9700, but the number of gameplay options aren't > > quite as good. > > That's because it's not as much a game as Heat is.

I guess I want a sequel to NASCAR HEAT, then. That's what I'm looking for. It's fun gameplay, but it's looking old on this new hardware.

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> > > I downloaded the Nascar Thunder 2003 demo to try out and I actually > > thought that it was enjoyable enough. I liked the feel of the menus > > and the options- I'm surprised so many reviewers were hard on it. > > See, that's that problem. You're not a sim driver. You're a > "gamer". Gamers will never be happy with the Papy's Nascar Racing > series because they don't want realism settings. They want twin-50's > on the hood and a grenade launcher. >

No, I don't mind realism when it doesn't get in the way of having fun. But pace laps and yellow flags are no fun. Also no fun is actually having to drive them without the AI taking over. OK, maybe I am not the best sim driver and I can't hold my place in a pace lap and get black flagged. Does this mean I should be condemned to not playing driving games? Y'all need to get up off your high horses. "Sim" vs. "Game" is irrelevent. What matter is, do you enjoy it? 'Cause until you get in a real car and drive a couple hundred laps, all you are doing is playing a game- albeit a game that can resemble the real thing in alot of ways. 'Nuff said. I'm not holding a gun to your head and demanding you play on arcade mode, u know. > > Go ahead and get Thunder. That way, we don't have to listen to > incesant whining about the AI being "lacking", or about the lack of > "gameplay options". Hey, I was just asking if they were going to make N2003 any different from past games, what new features will it have besides the graphics. I hardly call that whining. You guys are too thin skinned. I never sayed I didn't like playing "sims" or Papyrus games, just that I draw the line at what's fun somewhere. FWIW, I also bought NASCAR Legends a few months ago (also bargain bin) and I've played that alot too- it didn't rub me the wrong way like N4 did.

"e f" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I've been playing alot of NASCAR HEAT, but I finally got around to > playing NASCAR 4. I picked this up a couple of weeks ago, but my > computer has been down so I really didn't play it much for more than a > few minutes to see if it woudl run. I tried it out tonight and > something just rubbed me the wrong way about it, and I uninstalled it > after playing it for a few hours. > > Some things I don't like: > > - Sparse options > - No tire wear or gas options for those of us who don't want to > spend a couple hours racing > - No speed sensitivity settings, except in the core.ini file, and > then it only reduces the low-sensitivity speed. I thought real NASCAR > cars had power steering? > - No "skip to the racing" startup like HEAT. I just find a lap that > doesn't count boring. And I always end up wrecking during the pace > lap. Something is wrong with the way AI cars drive. It seems like > they really don't pay any attention. > - Two difficulty settings, arcade and simulation- with nothing in > between > - With 3D sound enabled, I get horrible loud pops or scratchy sounds > when I hit the wall sometimes. I'm using a Philips Dynamic Edge > soundcard. It works OK with just stereo sound, though. > > Some things I like > > - Uses hardware T&L, NASCAR HEAT doesn't. Consequently it seems like > there's less popup and faster framerates in N4. > - 32 bit color. Not only more color depth, but I can get antialiasing > to work with my video card. > > Now, this game may be a blast to play in multiplayer, and it's a > well respected game, but in singleplayer offline racing, it just seems > lacking. Graphics seems faster and more fluid than NASCAR HEAT on my > Athlon 2400 and Radeon 9700, but the number of gameplay options aren't > quite as good. > > I downloaded the Nascar Thunder 2003 demo to try out and I actually > thought that it was enjoyable enough. I liked the feel of the menus > and the options- I'm surprised so many reviewers were hard on it. It > sucks there's no career mode like the PS2, though, but maybe if it > gets a good enough PC reception they will add it next year or as a > patch. I'm betting the publishers/devs thought (perhaps correctly?) a > career mode would have appealed less to PC gamers where internet > gaming gets more of the spotlight. Often the silent majority doesn't > get heard. On consoles it seems to be a trend, on the other hand, to > have career based games. > > So is NASCAR 2003 going to be any different than NASCAR 4 in the > playability, or should I get Nascar Thunder in a few months (my > pocketbook is still stinging from a mandatory computer upgrade when my > motherboard gave up the ghost)?

Just different design philosophies is all. As you've come to realize, you stepped into a hornet's nest here :) Heat was a fine game, if you're into offline racing. Much better than anything Papy has put out AI, damage model, track representation, and car feel-wise imo. But most here don't do much offline racing, so, you're wearing the number 666 to them :) And the next time someone slams you for being an arcade racer, just ask them how the N2k damage, drafting, and online collision code models are doing <g> John

>"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Stay with Nascar Thunder, it's made for people who don't researchrealism. > > > > Yeah, not 'Made By Gamers, For Gamers', but 'Made By People Who Don't > Research Realism, For People Who Don't Research Realism'. > > Kinda catchy, don't ya think? I kinda like the tone of it, for people who don't research realism. Hey it's their choice, that's why Sly Stallone was a movie star. We don't go see that type of movies and except realism. We're all guilty of it, so why would it be different for gamers? It's fine with me. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<l9sI9.10849$[email hidden]>... > > <snip a bunch of arcade-type options he wants> > No, it's not arcade. Arcade is where you have a number at the top of the screen counting down, and you have to race fast enough to get bonus time. That's what I think of when I think of arcade. Crazy Taxi comes to mind. Call it "relaxed realism", whatever, but it's not "arcade". Anyways, what difference does it make if you can toggle it on or off to suit your preferences? I'm not asking you to play with no yellow/black flags, no full starts, or with tire wear. Is it a control issue with you fanboys? > Stay with Nascar Thunder, it's made for people who don't research realism. I spent some more time with the NASCAR Thunder demo, and read a few more reviews, and I decided to pass on it. I noticed that the LOD popup was even worse in NASCAR Thunder, and the shadows look nice but disappear too fast. I read a few more reviews, and it turns out there's no more gameplay modes than NASCAR 4. Maybe somebody will make a better NASCAR game one of these days that isn't just a console game. I read that EA has an exclusive license to do NASCAR, which is too bad- maybe they will do better next year 'cause it sucks this year. Or maybe Papyrus will turn out a good game for us casual players and not just the fanboys with NASCAR 2003. Man, PC gaming is really sucking now days if all the good games are on the consoles- all of the newer NASCAR HEAT games are console only. I have an old PS2 and would have bought a racing wheel a long while back if it weren't for the sucky console graphics and ridiculous game prices. It's just not fair...

>"e f" <[email hidden]> wrote > No, it's not arcade. Yes they are arcade. <sigh> We've been through this hundreds of times in this NG "e f". > Call it "relaxed realism", whatever, but it's not "arcade". <--- arcade o --------> realism Going towards arcade means arcade. > Is it a control issue with you fanboys? Ahhhh getting on your nerves? Don't fuck with us. We'll slap you into oblivion. > Man, PC gaming is really sucking now days if all the good games are > on the consoles There are NO good racing games on the console. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

> No, it's not arcade. Yes they are arcade. <sigh> We've been through this hundreds of times in this NG "e f". <--- arcade o --------> realism Going towards arcade means arcade. Ahhhh getting on your nerves? Don't *** with us. We'll slap you into oblivion. There are NO good racing games on the console. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- [link lost in import] -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zkKI9.94$[email hidden]... > >"e f" <[email hidden]> wrote > > No, it's not arcade. > > Yes they are arcade. <sigh> We've been through this hundreds of times in > this NG "e f". He means arcade as in coin-op, with a timer and checkpoints like Daytona USA or Sega Rally. You mean arcade as in easier to handle/slide/drive than real life. So 'e f' is right, and you are also right. So stop arguing. ;-) > > Call it "relaxed realism", whatever, but it's not "arcade". > > <--- arcade o --------> realism > > Going towards arcade means arcade. So if one little feature of NR2003 is put in place to make things a little easier to drive, like driving aids or alternate views, then it is an arcade game? 'Relaxed Realism' is a good way of describing a game like Thunder. It's not a 'timer counting down, get to the next checkpoint or insert another coin' game, but it won't have a WC team knocking on the door for help designing their car. > > Man, PC gaming is really sucking now days if all the good games are > > on the consoles > > There are NO good racing games on the console. I can count on the fingers of one human hand the number of PC games I really want to play, and still open a bottle of Coke with the ones left over. I couldn't count the number of games I want to play on a console on the teeth of a T-Rex. It is looking more and more like the PC is only for flight/racing sims, while the consoles are perfect for everything else. By the way, don't you like Gran Turismo 3, Colin McRae Rally 3, F355 Challenge, Auto Modellista, Formula One 2002, Project Gotham, F1 2002? Or even Mario Kart? You must like Mario Kart. They are all 'racing games', they are all on a 'console', and they are all good. They might not all be simulators, but you didn't say that.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if Papy just went with original works (drivers/cars/tracks) and continued to develop oval and road racing games, and just forgo the obviously expensive and pain-in-the-ass licensing issues. To me, it's the racing that counts. I could care less if Dale Jarrett and a Ford is in the field I'm racing. -Larry "e f" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<l9sI9.10849$[email hidden]>...

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> > > > > <snip a bunch of arcade-type options he wants> > > > > No, it's not arcade. Arcade is where you have a number at the top > of the screen counting down, and you have to race fast enough to get > bonus time. That's what I think of when I think of arcade. Crazy Taxi > comes to mind. > Call it "relaxed realism", whatever, but it's not "arcade". > > Anyways, what difference does it make if you can toggle it on or off > to suit your preferences? I'm not asking you to play with no > yellow/black flags, no full starts, or with tire wear. Is it a > control issue with you fanboys? > > > Stay with Nascar Thunder, it's made for people who don't research

realism.

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> > I spent some more time with the NASCAR Thunder demo, and read a few > more reviews, and I decided to pass on it. I noticed that the LOD > popup was even worse in NASCAR Thunder, and the shadows look nice but > disappear too fast. I read a few more reviews, and it turns out > there's no more gameplay modes than NASCAR 4. Maybe somebody will > make a better NASCAR game one of these days that isn't just a console > game. I read that EA has an exclusive license to do NASCAR, which is > too bad- maybe they will do better next year 'cause it sucks this > year. Or maybe Papyrus will turn out a good game for us casual > players and not just the fanboys with NASCAR 2003. > > Man, PC gaming is really sucking now days if all the good games are > on the consoles- all of the newer NASCAR HEAT games are console only. > I have an old PS2 and would have bought a racing wheel a long while > back if it weren't for the sucky console graphics and ridiculous game > prices. It's just not fair...