sim racing is dead

that is a sad fact

"timmy thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:45860bbe$0$16941$[email hidden]... > that is a sad factThat's strange........ I attended the PRI trade show this week and there were lots of new racing simulators on display.

On Dec 17, 10:32 pm, timmy thompson <[email hidden]> wrote: > that is a sad fact Hmmm...I would think that in order to make that a "fact" and not an opinion, one need to provide proof of some kind. Aside from the 5 words you posted, I see none. rF GTR2 Race2Play Iracing.com There are just 4 of the reasons <I> am excited about the future of sim racing.

timmy thompson wrote: > that is a sad fact I couldn't disagree more. In my opinion, it's going to be reborn in 2007.

LMAO Tim Wheatley wrote: > timmy thompson wrote: > > > that is a sad fact > > I couldn't disagree more. In my opinion, it's going to be reborn in > 2007.

LMAO > > that is a sad fact > I couldn't disagree more. In my opinion, it's going to be reborn in > 2007.

I could not agrE more. I personally think that,next to flight sims, racing sims are the most realistic form of gaming available and race simming in the coming years will only get more realistic and immersive. the day will come when all top real life racers will have to have sims in their practice arsenals to stay on top of their game. all also like to your list of reasons why sim racing is not dead 1. dedicated physics processing units 2. ageia physx api integrated into sims 3.upcoming ferrari project from blimey 4. dx10 Darus wrote:

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> On Dec 17, 10:32 pm, timmy thompson <[email hidden]> wrote: > > that is a sad fact > > Hmmm...I would think that in order to make that a "fact" and not an > opinion, one need to provide proof of some kind. Aside from the 5 words > you posted, I see none. > > rF > GTR2 > Race2Play > Iracing.com > > There are just 4 of the reasons <I> am excited about the future of sim > racing.

timmy thompson wrote: > that is a sad fact Piss off! rF, running the 1979 mod alone, is more fun than should be allowed. Join a league, see the world, have fun. What is boils down to is: "You're bored because you're boring."

timmy thompson wrote: > that is a sad fact here is a fact if you want one. I was on the gtr2 server on sunday and all day, from morning to night there wer 15 to 20 FULL,PRIVATE servers operating. I won't even mention the public servers.

timmy thompson wrote: > that is a sad fact Good riddance.

Tim Wheatley wrote: > timmy thompson wrote: > >> that is a sad fact > > I couldn't disagree more. In my opinion, it's going to be reborn in > 2007. That would rather agree with the OP that it is dead now! In my view in 2006 sim racing has continued to evolve at a reasonable pace. Whether 2007 will bring a 1998 type revolution remains to be seen. Hopefully we will see significant developments in sim technology and some organisation bought to the chaos that is only accessible for the real sim enthusiast limiting the appeal. As a sim enthusiast myself I would love to see iRacing, Blimey, ISI, Simbin & Race2Play etc. all succeed with a significant growth in sim racing drivers, some healthy competition and plenty of choice along with availability of online drivers in the genre of choice. The success criteria will vary between these products and their target markets, but I genuinely wish them all well, if nothing else for my own selfish reasons. Cheers Tony

[email hidden] wrote: > timmy thompson wrote: >> that is a sad fact > > Good riddance. > It may be dead but at our league XNSRL>COM we have 20 to 30 racers a nite running nascar 2003

I wouldn't say it's dead, but the thrill is long gone. Racing sims have been around since 1999. I look at the Team Redline web site and they seem to be always waiting for the next best thing to come along. The problem is, that when the next best thing does come along most players get bored with it faster than they did back in 1999, and go back into waiting for the yet next best thing. Most of the racing sim players are older, and getting older still, and less willing to spend as much time gaming as they used to. The racing sims will improve, but the newness is gone. There isn't going to be any sudden leap in the physics or the graphics, just a steady progression over time. There will be more competing titles, splitting up the field. Regarding PC based games, racing sims are a pretty small percentage of total sales. My evidence here is that GTR2 sold for $20 in the USA when it was first release. Need For Speed Carbon, an arcade racer sold for double that. Fligh Sim X (ten) sold for even more. It seems that the role playing games dominates sales for PC games. In the USA, the console games are outselling PC games.

> It may be dead but at our league XNSRL>COM we have 20 to 30 racers a nite running nascar 2003 This may be cruel, but what percentage of NR2003 racers have jobs?

Jeff Reid wrote: > I wouldn't say it's dead, but the thrill is long gone. Racing sims > have been around since 1999. <snip> > The racing sims will improve, but the newness is gone. There isn't > going to be any sudden leap in the physics or the graphics, just > a steady progression over time. There will be more competing titles, > splitting up the field. The sudden leaps you describe took place before 1999, for me Indy 500 being the first in 1990. If you look at the developments in the early nineties - F1GP, ICR, Nascar, ICR2, GP2 etc. the improvements with each title were great, rendering previous titles obsolete (providing you had the hardware to run them). Major physics changes, move from VGA to SVGA, sound card development (the first Soundblasters over Adlib cards!), move to accelerated graphics cards (Rendition, 3dfx etc.) plus a major leap in processing power. I do agree with the splitting of the field though, to grow sim racing it needs to move out of its niche grouping. The answer probably lies with better organisation and a more outward facing approach. Which would appear to be the way we are heading in 2007. In 1999 I believe it only seemed to be flourishing because the relatively few sim racers were all in VROC together! Cheers Tony

On Dec 19, 3:07 am, Tony Rickard <[email hidden]> wrote: > .. . > I do agree with the splitting of the field though, to grow sim racing it > needs to move out of its niche grouping. The answer probably lies with > better organisation and a more outward facing approach. Which would > appear to be the way we are heading in 2007.. . > Tony Therein lies the problem. The niche group (us) wants dead on balls accurate physics to simulate the car in question. The far larger market of potential driving enthusiasts wants "fun" without the high learning curve. Take for example, the "modern" GPL demo. If that was available as a full product at retail, all tracks, cars, sounds, etc. updated to the present level, it would still be a flop, sales wise anyway. There are so few ppl. who will spend the time required to learn to sim drive a car, despite the sensational eye candy and long term enjoyment from taming any of the 1967 GP cars. I suppose Simbin/Blimey attempted to bridge that gap with the multilevel physics options for GTR and GTL (amateur, semi-pro & Pro), but I have no idea how well they did with sales. NASCAR (and perhaps F1) would be the logical choices to attract the broadest market, but both licenses are tied up with companies who are satisfied with the sales from the initial release and not a long term approach, like Papy did with the NRxxxx series. They (Papy) continually added to the product over the life of the sim and made it better each time. EA puts out a crap NASCAR title (I refuse to call it a sim) and then abandons it. There hasn't been a F1 title in 6 years, IIRC due to Sony.

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:15Nhh.18619

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> <snip> > In 1999 I believe it only seemed to be flourishing because the > relatively few sim racers were all in VROC together! > > Cheers > Tony >

Oh, I don't know; I believe the numbers of Nascar Racing 3 simmers around in '99 might have had something to do with it too <wink>

What the hell you mean by that Jeff? Jeff Reid enlightened us with: >> It may be dead but at our league XNSRL>COM we have 20 to 30 racers a >> nite running nascar 2003 > > This may be cruel, but what percentage of NR2003 racers have jobs?

Only genre in Simulations that is dead, is SODa Offroad. (technically CORR now http://www.corracing.com/). How hard would it be to get the code from the guys that developed SODA? probably hard as hell now... I sure wish the Richard Burns Rally developers would take what they learned about rally, and make the sim to emulate CORR (Rough offroad truck racing on closed courses in front of stadiums, called the Motocross Of pickups by some of us fans...) timmy thompson enlightened us with: > that is a sad fact

Plowboy wrote: > Only genre in Simulations that is dead, is SODa Offroad. (technically CORR > now http://www.corracing.com/). How hard would it be to get the code from > the guys that developed SODA? probably hard as hell now... The guy who developed SODA now works with iRacing.com.

>> but what percentage of NR2003 racers have jobs? > What do you mean by that? NR2003 online is very time consuming. On the open servers, each race takes about 1/2 hour, warmup, qualify, then race. So 4 races would take 2 hours. I remember reading about some players that spend 20 hours or more a week online. Maybe the league play is different. Maybe I should have stated "have jobs or sleep", it was just referring to the amount of time that NR2003 can consume.

> The sudden leaps you describe took place before 1999, for me Indy 500 being the first in 1990. The point I was getting at is most of the racing sim community is an older, aging group, and probably spending less time gaming than they used to. We still buy the games, but don't spend as much time on each game as we used to.

Tim Wheatley wrote: > The guy who developed SODA now works with iRacing.com. Well software development is very thirsty work...

Tony Rickard wrote: > Tim Wheatley wrote: > > > The guy who developed SODA now works with iRacing.com. > > Well software development is very thirsty work... wonderful ! it's nice to have a good pun I can share with my family here. thank you

Hehehee, Ok I could say, I see what you meant. that is semi true for any online stuff, is it not? I dont think it is nearly as bad as LSI??? based online sim'n, so I assume you had some familiar/similiar background. I personally can get "into a decent pickup race server" within minutes... albeit with me having kind of the majority of popular tracks already, but then again if I dont have the latest incarnation of DegaTona this server is running, I at least know what I am looking for, and kind of know where to look for the tracks. What kills me is, like rFactor and GTLegends, last 2 weeks, I go online fri night or sat night, not that many servers to pick from (that is, with anyone on them). half are passworded, BUT!!!! the tip of the fricken iceberg, nonstandard tracks DO NOT show up as unstandard tracks or any clue that I need to download it, that is, unless you have already downloaded it then you might know that Dijon is actually Adelade? All I have to say in response is, How many freaking times I tried to join Zolder to be told I dont have the fracking track? trouble shooted the game/firewall/antivirus etc, and days later still have no idea waht the hell is going on with "zolder"... Where's the tidbit of information, like what track was the dang server running? why do I need to know the name of the friggin server host, and the name of the server???? in multiplayer lists? I never could figure that out, why not name the server and then description of the cars you pic (as in GTL 65 or not 65 or both, then the mods, then #players, then level, followed by ping? I would have to conceed to you Jeff, that in many game except NR03, about 15 minutes into tryin' to run online on "other sim's idea" of how online matchmaking should be done, has me shutting off the computer in total frustration, well ok more like loading Nascar and going online or playing RBR offline.. Jeff Reid enlightened us with:

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>>> but what percentage of NR2003 racers have jobs? > >> What do you mean by that? > > NR2003 online is very time consuming. On the open servers, each race > takes about 1/2 hour, warmup, qualify, then race. So 4 races would > take 2 hours. I remember reading about some players that spend 20 > hours or more a week online. Maybe the league play is different. > > Maybe I should have stated "have jobs or sleep", it was just > referring to the amount of time that NR2003 can consume.

Tim Wheatley enlightened us with:

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> Plowboy wrote: > >> Only genre in Simulations that is dead, is SODa Offroad. >> (technically CORR now http://www.corracing.com/). How hard would it >> be to get the code from the guys that developed SODA? probably hard >> as hell now... > > The guy who developed SODA now works with iRacing.com.

Oh shee ***...t that is neat to know, hmmm hear anything? Now you got my attention, but probably not in the plans, huh?

I usually run about 10 hrs a week, mostly on Friday and Saturday night. -Larry "Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bHVhh.104939$[email hidden]...

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>>> but what percentage of NR2003 racers have jobs? > >> What do you mean by that? > > NR2003 online is very time consuming. On the open servers, each race > takes about 1/2 hour, warmup, qualify, then race. So 4 races would > take 2 hours. I remember reading about some players that spend 20 > hours or more a week online. Maybe the league play is different. > > Maybe I should have stated "have jobs or sleep", it was just > referring to the amount of time that NR2003 can consume. > > > > > > > > > > > >

That's why they make large Executive Chairs, foot spa's, heating pads, and ace-bandages :) -Larry "Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WPVhh.105069$[email hidden]...

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> The point I was getting at is most of the racing sim community is > an older, aging group, and probably spending less time gaming than > they used to. We still buy the games, but don't spend as much time > on each game as we used to. > > >

> > lot of time spent online ... > Ok I could say, I see what you meant. that is semi true for any online stuff, is it not? Well one thing a lot of arcade racing games have going for them is races typically only take 2 to 7 minutes, and the waiting period is about 30 seconds, so in 20 to 30 minutes, you can get 8 to 15 races in depending on the tracks chosen (most players avoid the longer races). Sort of like indoor go-kart racing, where lap times are less than 30 seconds, and races are about 10 to 15 laps, a quick fix. Quake 3 arena online also went pretty quick, I think most matches only lasted about 5 minutes. > I dont think it is nearly as bad as LSI??? based online sim'n, What is LSI? > What kills me is, like rFactor and GTLegends, last 2 weeks, I go online fri night or sat night I don't even try to race these games online, as I don't have a collection of tracks or the car sets. I did do rFactor online before the mods were released, but not that much. The last time was just a couple of races with the PCC (porsche) mod. Most of my gaming time is spent offline, although I will go online when a new game is first released. However, I already know that I'm about 5% to 7% slower than the experts, and the online racing isn't going to help me get faster as well as hot lapping or looking at replays. The ghost feature in the games that have it seems to help the most. One exception is NR2003 open servers at Daytona / Talledega, no driving talent is required if you turn on the assists. The main focus is to qualify far enough up front to avoid the crash fest, pitting quickly, and exiting into a draft. I haven't raced NR2003 online in a year or two, but the lack of talent required is probably why the open online servers were so popular, as almost anyone can win one of those races. If I remember correctly there were up to 300 players online on popular nights. The league play is different though, and obviously the road courses are going to take just as much skill as any of the racing sims.

>> The point I was getting at is most of the racing sim community is >> an older, aging group, and probably spending less time gaming than >> they used to. We still buy the games, but don't spend as much time >> on each game as we used to. > That's why they make large Executive Chairs, foot spa's, heating pads, and ace-bandages :) I use head phones when I play racing games to cut down on the sound of my creaking bones as I move the controller.

Jeff Reid wrote:

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> I wouldn't say it's dead, but the thrill is long gone. Racing sims > have been around since 1999. I look at the Team Redline web site > and they seem to be always waiting for the next best thing to come > along. The problem is, that when the next best thing does come along > most players get bored with it faster than they did back in 1999, > and go back into waiting for the yet next best thing. Most of the > racing sim players are older, and getting older still, and less > willing to spend as much time gaming as they used to. > > The racing sims will improve, but the newness is gone. There isn't > going to be any sudden leap in the physics or the graphics, just > a steady progression over time. There will be more competing titles, > splitting up the field. > > Regarding PC based games, racing sims are a pretty small percentage > of total sales. My evidence here is that GTR2 sold for $20 in the > USA when it was first release. Need For Speed Carbon, an arcade > racer sold for double that. Fligh Sim X (ten) sold for even more. > It seems that the role playing games dominates sales for PC games. > In the USA, the console games are outselling PC games.

My niche is NASCAR, so my opinions are based around it. I wouldn't say I've lost the thrill of racing, per se. I enjoy competition today just as I did years ago when I started with Indy 500 and from there into the NASCAR sims. But, like a lot of people, once you spend enough time in the virtual seat you pick up on things that are lacking in a sim. This could be anything from graphical eye candy, track modelling, tire physics, AI, etc. Personally, the first thing I look for are "correct" auto/world physics. Then it's track modelling and finally AI. The pinnacle of NASCAR physics was NR2003, even if it was off to a certain extent. I really have no gripe there. Track modelling has always been exceptional. My trouble spot is the AI. Papy got the visual effect of AI physics down well enough, but when it comes to using their brain effectively (such as at Talladega), they don't use a "pack" mentality. Further, patience doesn't seem to be a factor at various points in a race. AI is what kills a racing sim for me. Lately, I've been spending a lot of time with NASCAR 2005 for the PS2 again ($40 down the drain for NASCAR 07, it's garbage). It too has ignorant AI. As does 07 and 06. Their AI don't appear to analyze what you, the player, is doing to be fast on the track. Be it braking later or sooner, methodically passing in all stages of the race, or going all out aggressive in the remaining laps. On the flip side, the grudges and alliances was a neat feature to begin with and it's effect on how hard the AI will race you for position. I won't get into the arcadeness (physics and tracks) of those titles, but I will say I would lighten my opinion of those games if they hammered down the handling (unlike 07 displays, stock cars don't handle like Mack trucks) and equally important: the AI. I guess, in a way, the AI for the EA NASCAR games are more fun to race against than Papy's AI. The environment doesn't feel as sterile as NR2003. In closing, my interaction with AI is how I gauge my competative side. Against humans in a sim is entirely different, of course. But for single player, I need human emulation (emotions, strategy, communication) in the computer opponents. What we have now barely suffices. I just hope it will get better. I don't know, maybe I'm alone in my thinking. :) -Will

> Personally, the first thing I look for are "correct" auto/world physics. Then it's track modelling and finally AI. What I'm waiting for is a racing sim that includes post race fist fights. This would truly capture the essence of NASCAR. There was mention of a post race "doom" mode, but it was an mis-use of the term. The player just gets to walk around the pits and track post race. To me doom mode would be having a BFG (big friggin gun) to blast away while you walked around.

Two of my co-workers and I race N2003 every Tuesday and Friday. We're all employed. Actually, you have to have a job to play, because the game regularly sells for $100 on E-bay. Sim racers (like flight simmers) are a small but VERY loyal bunch. I agree with the previous post - it is the most immersive online gaming experience I have ever had.

Jeff Reid wrote: >>Personally, the first thing I look for are "correct" auto/world physics. Then it's track modelling and finally AI. > > > What I'm waiting for is a racing sim that includes post race fist fights. > This would truly capture the essence of NASCAR. *laughs* Sounds like something EA Sports would add to NASCAR 08, in addition to the yearly paint scheme updates. ;) > There was mention of a post race "doom" mode, but it was an mis-use > of the term. The player just gets to walk around the pits and track post > race. To me doom mode would be having a BFG (big friggin gun) to blast > away while you walked around. I remember reading something about that, too, but I can't remember which title. At the time, I thought it was a decent idea...until I realized that it would be pointless unless used as some sort of a spectator mode for online races. *shrugs* -Will

Gil wrote:

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> Two of my co-workers and I race N2003 every Tuesday and Friday. We're > all employed. Actually, you have to have a job to play, because the > game regularly sells for $100 on E-bay. > > Sim racers (like flight simmers) are a small but VERY loyal bunch. > > I agree with the previous post - it is the most immersive online gaming > experience I have ever had. >

You missed the League reference,we have races every nite except friday and saturday,the 1st saturday of every month is the International series,I think 99% of our league is employed(there are a couple of teenagers racing)the servers open at 7pm qualifying at 8:30 and the races is usually over by 10:30.

> > > what percentage of NR2003 players have jobs (... or later added sleep?) > > Two of my co-workers and I race N2003 every Tuesday and Friday. We're > > all employed. My point was that some online racing games, like NR2003 have a tendency to consume more time than other online racing games. Sorry for the bad humor, as there are people that are unemployed for various reasons (disablity), and if I were in their condition, I'd spend more time with online gaming. I've also chatted with a few online players that sleep less than 6 hours a day, something I could never do. 55 years old and I sleep about 9 hours a day.

> I look at the Team Redline web site and they seem to be always > waiting for the next best thing to come along. Forgot to post a link. This group includes some of the fastest racing sim players. But when I look at their forum, there isn't a lot of activity. http://www.teamredline.co.uk As mentioned, for players like me that don't play in leagues (I don't want to make a commitment unless I'm really willing to put in the time to do it right), trying to play racing sims online is difficult because of all the add-ons. In my case most of my online racing is with the arcade games, as there are usually no add-ons, and the races go quick. Similarly, the number of arcade racing game players online also seems to be diminishing. The first Need For Speed games with true online racing, with stats, chat area, and list of races, (NFS4 1999 and NFS5 2000) lasted about 4 years, before it was shut down and there were serveral hundred players that were active or semi active. In the case of NFS7 Underground 1, it lasted about 2 years, and the number of online players shrunk to less than 50. NFS8 stated with 1000 players online the first night of the demo, but was down to 300 players in about 3 or 4 weeks. The official game split up US and European servers, and again less than 50 players within about 2 years. The latest version, Carbon, lasted about 4 weeks, hundreds of players online in my time zone for the first 2 or 3 weeks, to less than 100 just 5 weeks after the game was released. Since the latest releases of NFS are world wide releases, it may just be a USA issue, as there are over 5000 players with online stats, just for NFS Carbon.

Jeff Reid enlightened us with:

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>>> lot of time spent online ... > >> Ok I could say, I see what you meant. that is semi true for any >> online stuff, is it not? > Quake 3 arena online also went pretty quick, I think most matches > only lasted about 5 minutes. >> I dont think it is nearly as bad as LSI??? based online sim'n, > > What is LSI?

LSI (I could have the wrong set of letters/developer name) is the physics engine that the games are coded from, that is "shared" from gtr gtl, then version 2 of this engine {as I hear it loosely refered to} is rFactor, GTR2 (as far as I know, from reading). ok, I was joking around but you pretty much disquallified yerself from having any rational posts about if NR guys have a jobs or life, as you have conceeded that by your terms, nobody online gaming has a life except Quake gamers (LOL). >> What kills me is, like rFactor and GTLegends, last 2 weeks, I go >> online fri night or sat night Ok I know NR doesnt need a defender... So I wont jump on and stop you with the parrotheaded thoughts of "ARCADE" goddam if that dont = DEGATONA aids enabled racing as you can get...

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> One exception is NR2003 open servers at Daytona / Talledega, no > driving talent is required if you turn on the assists. The main focus > is to qualify far enough up front to avoid the crash fest, pitting > quickly, and exiting into a draft. I haven't raced NR2003 online in a year > or two, but > the lack of talent required is probably why the open online servers > were

what kind of talent then do you say there is to winning anything in these arcade racing sims where IMHO the utter lack of talent nor experience is rewared. I mean how many times in any "experience" in your life gonna say, "ok I can beat this guy if I hit the nitrous button 46 times-> jump over this mailbox, grab the revolving door in front of this airport and let it swing the car over to get the Jet turbine pack... Creative? yeah ok maybe, but talented? well, HELL no. Especially when you download step by step cheats or books that have these cheats placed there by the authors that NOBODY knows about until they tell you... Anyway Im just funning around, I like watching your videos, they give me hope. Keep the emulated/simulated_shiney_side_up, later...

"timmy thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:45860bbe$0$16941$[email hidden]... > that is a sad fact www.rfactorcentral.com receives 6,000 (or is it 16,000?) individual visitors every day. -- David G Fisher

I see the error, it is ISI, not LSI... Some I know works at LSI Logic, lol... Plowboy enlightened us with:

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> Jeff Reid enlightened us with: >>>> lot of time spent online ... >> >>> Ok I could say, I see what you meant. that is semi true for any >>> online stuff, is it not? > > >> Quake 3 arena online also went pretty quick, I think most matches >> only lasted about 5 minutes. > >>> I dont think it is nearly as bad as LSI??? based online sim'n, >> >> What is LSI? > > > LSI (I could have the wrong set of letters/developer name) is the > physics engine that the games are coded from, that is "shared" from > gtr gtl, then version 2 of this engine {as I hear it loosely refered > to} is rFactor, GTR2 (as far as I know, from reading). > > ok, I was joking around but you pretty much disquallified yerself from > having any rational posts about if NR guys have a jobs or life, as > you have conceeded that by your terms, nobody online gaming has a > life except Quake gamers (LOL). > >>> What kills me is, like rFactor and GTLegends, last 2 weeks, I go >>> online fri night or sat night > > Ok I know NR doesnt need a defender... So I wont jump on and stop > you with the parrotheaded thoughts of "ARCADE" goddam if that dont = > DEGATONA aids enabled racing as you can get... > >> One exception is NR2003 open servers at Daytona / Talledega, no >> driving talent is required if you turn on the assists. The main focus >> is to qualify far enough up front to avoid the crash fest, pitting >> quickly, and exiting into a draft. I haven't raced NR2003 online in >> a year or two, but >> the lack of talent required is probably why the open online servers >> were > > what kind of talent then do you say there is to winning anything in > these arcade racing sims where IMHO the utter lack of talent nor > experience is rewared. I mean how many times in any "experience" in > your life gonna say, "ok I can beat this guy if I hit the nitrous > button 46 times-> jump over this mailbox, grab the revolving door in > front of this airport and let it swing the car over to get the Jet > turbine pack... Creative? yeah ok maybe, but talented? well, HELL > no. Especially when you download step by step cheats or books that > have these cheats placed there by the authors that NOBODY knows about > until they tell you... > Anyway Im just funning around, I like watching your videos, they give > me hope. > > Keep the emulated/simulated_shiney_side_up, > later...

Ha hehehee, you mean post race fines, because you do know Nascar just calls you to the trailer instead of the boyz working it out themselves... Jeff Reid enlightened us with:

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>> Personally, the first thing I look for are "correct" auto/world >> physics. Then it's track modelling and finally AI. > > What I'm waiting for is a racing sim that includes post race fist > fights. This would truly capture the essence of NASCAR. > > There was mention of a post race "doom" mode, but it was an mis-use > of the term. The player just gets to walk around the pits and track > post race. To me doom mode would be having a BFG (big friggin gun) to > blast away while you walked around.

NR2003 still has 200-400 players on weeknights, and weekends are a little busier. I can always find good, fun and competitive races with that game whenever I hook up the wheel.

Yup David, no shortage of hits and downloads at rFactorcentral . com :) Everyone please DONATE if you can :) (before you ask, yes every month or two) ==--== "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "timmy thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:45860bbe$0$16941$[email hidden]... >> that is a sad fact > > www.rfactorcentral.com receives 6,000 (or is it 16,000?) individual > visitors every day. > > > -- > David G Fisher > >

> LSI You later explained you meant ISI. The basis for most of the current sims. My biggest complaint is the lack of tire noises in the replays. Even budget arcade racers like Ford Racing 2 have tire noises in their replays. > ok, I was joking around but you pretty much disquallified yerself from having any rational posts about if NR guys have > a jobs or life, as you have conceeded that by your terms, nobody online gaming has a life except Quake gamers (LOL). rFactor online races normally don't take 1/2 hour per race, at least the few races I've done online. That's the issue with ovals, it takes a lot of laps before differences in talent show up, which is time consuming. Then again, there were a few years where they ran a once a year event with Grand Prix Legends, 1000km at NordSchleife in Grand Prix Legends, that's 44 laps at around 8 minutes per lap (for the fast guys), with a required total of 40 minutes of break time, so the event lasted almost 7 hours even for the better players. It was reported that no divorces occurred from this event. > Ok I know NR doesnt need a defender... So I wont jump on and stop you with the parrotheaded thoughts of "ARCADE" > goddam if that dont = DEGATONA aids enabled racing as you can get... When I did check out NR2003 online open servers, most of the 300 or so players were running DEGATONA events, 1/2 hour per race, and with assists on, the key was qualifying, avoiding wrecks, and working with a group or getting lucking on pit exits to end up getting back into the draft. Personally I would prefer the other players to be using assists, to reduce the crash fest factor. It's my opinion that the DEGATONA with assists on, no talent required, a chance that almost anyone can win is what draws the most of the 300 players I saw online. There were very few running Watkins Glen, and fewer still that could run 1:14's (if I'm remembering the times correctly). > arcade OK, someone has to defend the arcade racers games. I play both arcade and simulation type racing game and enjoy both. Few players complain about reality with first person shooter games, and I feel the same way about racing games, I like both types. Realism is limited as there is no feel. If I want realisim, I can head down to a local indoor gokart track (k1speed). Those karts pull well over 1 g in the turns, the pace is very quick, and drifting them is key to getting good lap times, and a lot of fun, but's it cost more than a buck a lap, and the laps go quick, about 22 to 23 seconds per lap (for me, the top guys are about 1 second faster). Still it's cheaper than taking a real car to a track and having to buy a second set of wheels and tires. > Especially when you download step by step cheats or books that have these > cheats placed there by the authors that NOBODY knows about until they tell > you... The cheat codes aren't used for online racing. Some players use trainers, but this is outright cheating, as with any game. The arcade games require skill, but a different kind of skill. The main differences are that it's impossible or nearly so to power oversteer a car in most of the arcade racers, although some of them (like Ford Racing 2 in advanced mode), are more realistic, and you can spin the cars, and lock up the brakes. It's really not much diferent than sim games with some or most assists on. The other difference for some arcade games is the grip level (high), and the pace (quick). Note that the go-karts at that indoor track have similar limitations. If you hang out the rear end too far, the computer in the kart cuts out power to the engine, to prevent a full power head on into a barrier after a spin. To avoid heavy collisions from getting rear ended, the brakes are limited to about 1/3rd g, (note that the cars pull well over 1 g in the turns). Some of the Need For Speed games do involve shortcuts. Introduced with NFS3 - Hot Pursuit, and a big part of NFS4 - High Stakes, it was a key part of those games. Considering the track shorcuts are described in the track presentation, (when's the last time a game included track presentations?), people knew of them. For example, this description of Celtic Ruins for NFS4 - High Stakes, and a lap. http://jeffareid.net/nfs4/n4pcr.wmv http://jeffareid.net/nfs4/n4crcl.wmv The physics of High Stakes was absurd. There was more lateral grip than longitudinal grip, and it seemed that both worked independently, as you could steer hard and brake for a insanely rapid decrease in speed. Then there were aspects that made NFS3 and the faster NFS4 challenging. Going airborne for even an instant would slow down a car. Brushing any object would slow down a car. This game was all about timing, since you spent most of the time in turns with the steering pegged, so timing the turn in so you could get through narrow shortcuts while at full throttle with the steering pegged did require skill, but a different kind of skill than real racing. Some of the cars required some time to setup for a turn, (similar to GPL). You had to run clean laps with precise speed over rises (to avoid going airborne), to achieve top lap times. NFS4 also had features that are sorely lacking in many other racing games. A ghost car feature where you could save a run, and then run against it. A controller based replay system, that could be interchanged with other players, proving that the game played the same on all PC's since it was controller input based (meaning that when watching a replay, it was really watching a race using the stored controller inputs from the originator), and proving that a lap record run was done legally. Day / night / weather settings for all tracks. For variety, online racing included knockout mode: 8 players, 7 races, the "loser" of each race drove a truck (usually in reverse direction) to crash into the remaining racers, ending up with 6 trucks and 2 racers. It was a fun diversion. Track presentations as already mentioned. http://jeffareid.net/nfs4/n4kpcl.wmv http://jeffareid.net/nfs4/n4raf1.wmv I never owned NFS1 or NFS1SE, but NFS2 and NFS2SE had the most realistic physics of the series when run in "simulation" mode. Braking distances were resonably long, and driving lines were similar to what you'd normally use for a racing sim. The difference is that there was no power oversteer, just brake induced understeer that would send you off track if you braked too late. The tracks were fantasy tracks, and the graphics are dated, but for my first PC based racing game, it was fun. This is from a 1997 game: http://jeffareid.net/nfs2/n2sempd.wmv The underground games (1 and 2) jumped in on the fast and furious fad. U1 had limited tracks with short lap times, 40 to 60 seconds, and bouncing off walls. http://jeffareid.net/nfs7/n7os.wmv U2 was a better, with a huge range. Street X was like indor go-kart racing, lap times from 9 seconds to 30 seconds, while normal circuit tracks ranged from 50 seconds to over 3 minutes per lap. There was also a outrun mode which was just humorous, as the game designers intended for a player to slowly pull away from the AI car, but the players figured out a few alternatives that were a lot more fun: http://jeffareid.net/nfs8/n8sx.wmv http://jeffareid.net/nfs8/n8or.wmv Most wanted went back to daytime and brought back the pursuits. What better way to teach responsible driving than stuff like this? http://jeffareid.net/nfs9/n9fprw.wmv The lastest version, NFS Carbon, went back to the shortcuts, but these aren't the narrow ones like with NFS4, and you can use a "scout" driver to show a player where all the shortcuts are. http://jeffareid.net/nfsc/nccraq1.wmv http://jeffareid.net/nfsc/ncctcx.wmv I like the racing sims as well, but realize that my skills limit me to only getting within 5% to 7% of the expert racers. http://jeffareid.net/gpl/gplkllt.wmv http://jeffareid.net/gtr/gtrspa.wmv http://jeffareid.net/rfr/rfrnrd2005f1.wmv

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:34:25 -0500, Dave F wrote:

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> "timmy thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:45860bbe$0$16941$[email hidden]... >> that is a sad fact > > www.rfactorcentral.com receives 6,000 (or is it 16,000?) individual visitors > every day. > >

Hm, I'd be wary of web statistics, those numbers don't put bums in race seats I'd say ;-) I've been having trouble finding decently populated online servers running the mods I like at the moment (most F1 1979 and Proton / Demon). Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Plowboy wrote:

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> Tim Wheatley enlightened us with: > > Plowboy wrote: > > > >> Only genre in Simulations that is dead, is SODa Offroad. > >> (technically CORR now http://www.corracing.com/). How hard would it > >> be to get the code from the guys that developed SODA? probably hard > >> as hell now... > > > > The guy who developed SODA now works with iRacing.com. > > Oh shee ***...t that is neat to know, hmmm hear anything? > Now you got my attention, but probably not in the plans, huh?

It's no accident that he is on the team, obviously. Anyway, I feel I am being off topic... So I'm stop talking. ;-)

That's true Uwe, I love the 79's (can't wait for final) and there are not a lot of public servers running it. Have you considered joining a league that races 'one of them' regularly? I race Sunday and Thursday nites in leagues running the 79 F1's :) (( great fun )) I can post a link if you're interested.. or should be listing at RSC rFactor Leagues board. Cheers ==--== "Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:34:25 -0500, Dave F wrote: >> "timmy thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:45860bbe$0$16941$[email hidden]... >>> that is a sad fact >> >> www.rfactorcentral.com receives 6,000 (or is it 16,000?) individual >> visitors >> every day. >> >> > > Hm, I'd be wary of web statistics, those numbers don't put bums in race > seats I'd say ;-) I've been having trouble finding decently populated > online servers running the mods I like at the moment (most F1 1979 and > Proton / Demon). > > Cheers, uwe > > > -- > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Oh gil... I quite agree, Jeff n I are still talking down through this thread... Gil enlightened us with: > NR2003 still has 200-400 players on weeknights, and weekends are a > little busier. I can always find good, fun and competitive races with > that game whenever I hook up the wheel.

I honestly think the #1 problem with sim racing (in general) on the most basic terms is car or Mod compatability/capability. Ok what the heck did I mean by that? here is my take. except for the hard core guys, and the aliens; IMHO the more adept yet more casual gamer, with too many choices to get proficient let alone comfortable on. No I dont mean 2 many games or publishers, I mean choices of mod or heck even cars to drive. In nascar racing, the coding of the game pretty much makes mute yet keeps the spirit of the actual intent of "nascar," that all cars be within a certain % equal. I know there're arguing in real life about trunklid allowances etc etc, but in the sim you are given the same car I give myself, with the same potential to be the winning car everytime you drive. the playing field was preset, you could pick (previously pontiac, olds) dodge, chevy or ford but that choice meant diddly about the outcome of the race, if all else was equal (meaning driven and setup with same skills). Last weekend I drove the Escorts & capris with some other guys, we had a huge good time because the skills were close, everyone else was in the same or close cars... IMHO and we raced close, the fun ended because it was an open server and guys came in with the pantera's and the 906's and hell we were no longer a really a match... I guess my mistake is not "getting into" the 906 until I love it, that way when everyone is running the 906, I could too but I just dont, so how many others are like me? I think a decent portion are. Snipped...

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:19:00 GMT, ==--== wrote:

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> That's true Uwe, I love the 79's (can't wait for final) and there are not a > lot of public servers running it. Have you considered joining a league that > races 'one of them' regularly? > I race Sunday and Thursday nites in leagues running the 79 F1's :) > (( great fun )) > > I can post a link if you're interested.. or should be listing at RSC rFactor > Leagues board.

Actually I run in league on a bi-weekly basis, but every once in a while I check the public servers for 79 races, too, and while this mod dominated the public servers shortly after the demo was released, the excitement seems to have come down a bit. I hope the full release manages to rectify this situation, though ;-) Cheers & happy holidays, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Well first off - to each his own - I always say Secondly... I race the cars I like to race - period. So for me, I get a great choice of different rides from F1 79 through ETCC - I love having those choices. On the otherhand, I don't race the karts, or off-road, or nascar (much), or Bugs, or or or .... I would hope that most are like me and love the diversity. Find a group that likes the rides you like and race with them. Don't worry about the 906 and the PCC, just pick one and get good at it ;) Joking Later you will feel like a change and there will be the other waiting for you :):) Cheers ==--== ( IMHO - ofcourse ) "Plowboy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JhRih.14203$[email hidden]...

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>I honestly think the #1 problem with sim racing (in general) on the most >basic terms is car or Mod compatability/capability. > > Ok what the heck did I mean by that? here is my take. > > except for the hard core guys, and the aliens; IMHO the more adept yet > more casual gamer, with too many choices to get proficient let alone > comfortable on. No I dont mean 2 many games or publishers, I mean choices > of mod or heck even cars to drive. > > In nascar racing, the coding of the game pretty much makes mute yet keeps > the spirit of the actual intent of "nascar," that all cars be within a > certain % equal. I know there're arguing in real life about trunklid > allowances etc etc, but in the sim you are given the same car I give > myself, with the same potential to be the winning car everytime you drive. > the playing field was preset, you could pick (previously pontiac, olds) > dodge, chevy or ford but that choice meant diddly about the outcome of the > race, if all else was equal (meaning driven and setup with same skills). > > Last weekend I drove the Escorts & capris with some other guys, we had a > huge good time because the skills were close, everyone else was in the > same or close cars... IMHO and we raced close, the fun ended because it > was an open server and guys came in with the pantera's and the 906's and > hell we were no longer a really a match... > > I guess my mistake is not "getting into" the 906 until I love it, that way > when everyone is running the 906, I could too but I just dont, so how many > others are like me? I think a decent portion are. > > > Snipped... > > > >

>> I hope the full release manages to rectify this situation, though ;-) >> << Hear, Hear. I hope so to Uwe ... I hope the full mod comes sooooooooon!!!! LOL Season's Best ==--== "Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:19:00 GMT, ==--== wrote: >> That's true Uwe, I love the 79's (can't wait for final) and there are not >> a >> lot of public servers running it. Have you considered joining a league >> that >> races 'one of them' regularly? >> I race Sunday and Thursday nites in leagues running the 79 F1's :) >> (( great fun )) >> >> I can post a link if you're interested.. or should be listing at RSC >> rFactor >> Leagues board. > > Actually I run in league on a bi-weekly basis, but every once in a while > I check the public servers for 79 races, too, and while this mod > dominated the public servers shortly after the demo was released, the > excitement seems to have come down a bit. > > I hope the full release manages to rectify this situation, though ;-) > > Cheers & happy holidays, uwe > > -- > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

In article <Y2Hhh.26337$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Jeff Reid) wrote: > *From:* "Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> > *Date:* Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:15:37 -0800 I disagree that sim racing is dead, the response to the original post in this thread goes soem way to prove that.... > Racing sims have been around since 1999. Hmm, they have been around a lot longer than that? Anyone remember Grand Prix by Geoff Crammond? that must have been released around the late 80's or early 90's, or what about his even earlier offerings "Revs" for the BBC micro? that must have been around in the early to mid 80's. And what about programs like stunt car racer? even earlier (82? 83?) 8-) *Peter* - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/

I think the only reason SIM racing may be slow right now (it sure isn't dead) is there hasn't been a REAL Nascar Racing sim on the shelves for going on 4 years now. I honestly believe if they took NR2003, patched the known issues, updated the cars and tracks, and maybe tweaked the physics a bit, it would sell like gangbusters, especially if properly promoted. No, it can never happen, but if it could... I also think it's getting close to possible to have a proper SIM the caliber of NR2003 on xBOX or PS3. I think the horsepower may be there now. There would definitely need to be work done on controllers though. Using thumsticks just would not cut it. In fact, if it ever gets done, I hope there is a host option that says "Wheel Required". Again, we'll never see it though. One can wish :) -Larry

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c5pjh.19334$[email hidden]...

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>I think the only reason SIM racing may be slow right now (it sure isn't >dead) is there hasn't been a REAL Nascar Racing sim on the shelves for >going on 4 years now. > > I honestly believe if they took NR2003, patched the known issues, updated > the cars and tracks, and maybe tweaked the physics a bit, it would sell > like gangbusters, especially if properly promoted. > > No, it can never happen, but if it could... > > I also think it's getting close to possible to have a proper SIM the > caliber of NR2003 on xBOX or PS3. I think the horsepower may be there > now. There would definitely need to be work done on controllers though. > Using thumsticks just would not cut it. In fact, if it ever gets done, I > hope there is a host option that says "Wheel Required". > > Again, we'll never see it though. One can wish :) > > -Larry

I think consoles are still a bit behind. It takes a ton of horsepower to calculate all the physics of a true simulator. Today's sims, both racing and flight simulations have very complex physics, and get more so with about every release. The video rendering is about there though, but until the processor power gets to where the PC is I don't think that a "true" simulation is possible. 5yrs down the road it probably will happen. Ed >

I remember Grand Prix by Activision for my Atari. Hey, I still know of a Viper Racing group that runs most nights. If they come up with the racing game, someone out here will drive it! Merry Christmas! Gil

On 24 Dec 2006 08:50:37 -0800, Gil wrote:

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> I remember Grand Prix by Activision for my Atari. > > Hey, I still know of a Viper Racing group that runs most nights. > > If they come up with the racing game, someone out here will drive it! > > > > Merry Christmas! > > Gil

unless its an eas nascrap game.

On 24 Dec 2006 08:50:37 -0800, Gil unless its an eas nas***game.