The NR2003 Mod That I Really Want Is...

GPL Classic. Not GPL 2. If you are into shooters you probably remember when Team Fortress 1.5 was still Team Fortress Classic, and you might even remember when it was Team Fortress Quake. While some didn't like it, I immediately enjoyed Team Fortress Classic more then Team Fortress Quake, despite having played TFQ for several years before TFC was released. Why? They took a great game, put it in a more modern engine, fixed a number of nagging play balance issues, and yet still remained faithful to the original, all the way down to re-creations of the most popular TFQ maps. I would love to see somebody use the NR2003 engine to do the same thing to GPL. Keep the original tracks and cars, but redo them all. Reloft the tracks and bring the poly count and texture density up to modern standards. Fix a couple of inaccuracies that people have discovered. Update the car models and use the correct team names. Keep the performance the same, but add in proper tire and brake wear (after all, it's already in the engine). Maybe even try and find out what those cars really had in terms of vertical aero forces, because I'm pretty sure it wasn't zero. But all the while preserving the essential character of the game that so many have become addicted to over the last 5 years. It's a big job, but I think there are people in the mod community that would like to do it, and could pull it off. I'd love to see Papy do it themselves, that would be the best thing. But if not them, then maybe the Project Wildfire guys. Or GPLEA. Surely somebody will take this on. Come on guys, the great gameplay we all love in a thoroughly up to date engine - what could be better than that?

I'll buy it! "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bc36uh$er293$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> GPL Classic. > > Not GPL 2. > > If you are into shooters you probably remember when Team Fortress 1.5 was > still Team Fortress Classic, and you might even remember when it was Team > Fortress Quake. While some didn't like it, I immediately enjoyed Team > Fortress Classic more then Team Fortress Quake, despite having played TFQ > for several years before TFC was released. Why? They took a great game, > put it in a more modern engine, fixed a number of nagging play balance > issues, and yet still remained faithful to the original, all the way down

to > re-creations of the most popular TFQ maps. I would love to see somebodyuse > the NR2003 engine to do the same thing to GPL. > > Keep the original tracks and cars, but redo them all. Reloft the tracksand

Quoted text (10 lines)

> bring the poly count and texture density up to modern standards. Fix a > couple of inaccuracies that people have discovered. Update the car models > and use the correct team names. Keep the performance the same, but add in > proper tire and brake wear (after all, it's already in the engine). Maybe > even try and find out what those cars really had in terms of vertical aero > forces, because I'm pretty sure it wasn't zero. But all the while > preserving the essential character of the game that so many have become > addicted to over the last 5 years. > > It's a big job, but I think there are people in the mod community that

would > like to do it, and could pull it off. I'd love to see Papy do it > themselves, that would be the best thing. But if not them, then maybe the > Project Wildfire guys. Or GPLEA. Surely somebody will take this on.Come > on guys, the great gameplay we all love in a thoroughly up to dateengine - > what could be better than that? > >

Im not the expert on the physics engine, but to remove or reset the aero from NASCAR bodies alone, well would seem daunting? I mean they rewrote the GPL to give us n4, now maybe it was less work and more to add the eyecandy stuff <that we expect now?> I guarantee you I would buy GPL again, and I would submit that the Nascar Racing Legends updated to the 2003 engine would be cool too! I think a lot of buyers would be out there. I just cannot believe that I am the only one on the planet that has NOT bought any other game (genre) on the market, except NR(1) through NR2003. I bought the track packs, the CTS pack, and viper racing, GPL, but I have never bought quake or anything else, PERIOD. (oh wait someone got me Flight Simulator & Combat flight Simulator 3 for me, like Christmas, but they suck with ONLY my wheel to fly them with LOL!!!) I have thought about it though. I am saddened that NR03 might be then end of the line as far as gaming goes for me. I guess Ill be happy though, as I see it I spent nearly 400 bucks average each time the NEW iteration of the Papy's tittles were released. Heck I even bought the NR-Legends, and I liked it for what it was, but I damn sure could see the NR-Legends with 2003's physics being one hell of a lot more fun! I mean 440 + C.I. engines, with 12" (or so) wide slicks of the day, can you say "LOOSE" and twitchy horsepower of the 70's!!! Dang it I honestly think that would be grand, to do it. I just think the NR3 engine just didn't cut it for the 70's cars handling wise, for the sim. "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wVjFa.36553$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> I'll buy it! > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bc36uh$er293$[email hidden]... > > GPL Classic. > > > > Not GPL 2. > > > > If you are into shooters you probably remember when Team Fortress 1.5

was > > still Team Fortress Classic, and you might even remember when it wasTeam > > Fortress Quake. While some didn't like it, I immediately enjoyed Team > > Fortress Classic more then Team Fortress Quake, despite having playedTFQ > > for several years before TFC was released. Why? They took a greatgame, > > put it in a more modern engine, fixed a number of nagging play balance > > issues, and yet still remained faithful to the original, all the waydown

Quoted text (9 lines)

> to > > re-creations of the most popular TFQ maps. I would love to see somebody > use > > the NR2003 engine to do the same thing to GPL. > > > > Keep the original tracks and cars, but redo them all. Reloft the tracks > and > > bring the poly count and texture density up to modern standards. Fix a > > couple of inaccuracies that people have discovered. Update the car

models > > and use the correct team names. Keep the performance the same, but addin > > proper tire and brake wear (after all, it's already in the engine).Maybe > > even try and find out what those cars really had in terms of verticalaero

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > forces, because I'm pretty sure it wasn't zero. But all the while > > preserving the essential character of the game that so many have become > > addicted to over the last 5 years. > > > > It's a big job, but I think there are people in the mod community that > would > > like to do it, and could pull it off. I'd love to see Papy do it > > themselves, that would be the best thing. But if not them, then maybe

the

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > Project Wildfire guys. Or GPLEA. Surely somebody will take this on. > Come > > on guys, the great gameplay we all love in a thoroughly up to date > engine - > > what could be better than that? > > > > > >

Depends on how they modelled it mathematically, but if they used standard aero coefficients then duplicating GPL's lack of downforce would just be a matter of setting the lift and pitching moment coefficients to zero. Nothing would have to be rewritten. "Plowboy" <Plowboy'[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Im not the expert on the physics engine, but to remove or reset the aero > from NASCAR bodies alone, well would seem daunting? I mean they rewrotethe > GPL to give us n4, now maybe it was less work and more to add the eyecandy > stuff <that we expect now?> >

On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:58:17 -0400, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote: >GPL Classic. GPL Classic and Nascar Legends Classic would top my list of quick and dirty N2k3 mods. If something does something more extensive, I'd still really like CART and/or Aussie V8's. Jason

If they would really follow the Valve model, it would be made available in three ways - as a free download, as an expansion pack for NR2003 or perhaps included in an NR2003 Gold Edition, and as a stand-alone game. Really this is the business model that put Valve on the map. Half-Life was certainly a good game in its own right but would never have enjoyed the longevity or sales it did if it hadn't been for Team Fortress Classic and Counter-Strike. Sales of NR2003 are liable to peter out towards the end of this year and they do not have a NASCAR follow up. If they would put some effort into supporting the mod scene, Papy could enjoy continued strong sales of NR2003 for several more years to come, alongside - and without competing with - whatever their next game is. Obviously they have started to figure this out because it is clear that they have some indirect involvement in Project Wildfire. I am suggesting to Papy, if they are listening, to take the next step, embrace the Valve model, and directly support the development of one or two high visibility mods for both sale and free download. I really think it would pay off, and in the meantime we would get some incredible games that likely would not have happened any other way. "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wVjFa.36553$[email hidden]... > I'll buy it! >

what he said "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bc5u2m$els87$[email hidden]... > If they would really follow the Valve model, it would be made available in > three ways - as a free download, as an expansion pack for NR2003 orperhaps > included in an NR2003 Gold Edition, and as a stand-alone game. Reallythis > is the business model that put Valve on the map. Half-Life was certainlya > good game in its own right but would never have enjoyed the longevity or > sales it did if it hadn't been for Team Fortress Classic andCounter-Strike. > Sales of NR2003 are liable to peter out towards the end of this year and > they do not have a NASCAR follow up. If they would put some effort into > supporting the mod scene, Papy could enjoy continued strong sales ofNR2003 > for several more years to come, alongside - and without competing with - > whatever their next game is. Obviously they have started to figure thisout > because it is clear that they have some indirect involvement in Project > Wildfire. I am suggesting to Papy, if they are listening, to take thenext > step, embrace the Valve model, and directly support the development of one > or two high visibility mods for both sale and free download. I reallythink

Quoted text (10 lines)

> it would pay off, and in the meantime we would get some incredible games > that likely would not have happened any other way. > > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:wVjFa.36553$[email hidden]... > > I'll buy it! > > > >

>"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote > GPL Classic. "It's no GPL" ;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Even the teams themselves had absolutely no idea at the time. If you read Ron Tauranac's book (just one example which comes to mind immediately) about his years with Brabham (and then RALT) your eyes will open wide in amazement when you understand just how little was known about aerodynamic forces on the cars up to and even beyond 1968. This was a period in time when every racing engineer and car designer was dabbling with alchemy when it came to aerodynamics. Bruce. "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bc36uh$er293$[email hidden]... >Maybe even try and find out what those cars really had in terms of verticalaero > forces, because I'm pretty sure it wasn't zero.

Have to say I would pay big $$ for that. Marc "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bc36uh$er293$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> GPL Classic. > > Not GPL 2. > > If you are into shooters you probably remember when Team Fortress 1.5 was > still Team Fortress Classic, and you might even remember when it was Team > Fortress Quake. While some didn't like it, I immediately enjoyed Team > Fortress Classic more then Team Fortress Quake, despite having played TFQ > for several years before TFC was released. Why? They took a great game, > put it in a more modern engine, fixed a number of nagging play balance > issues, and yet still remained faithful to the original, all the way down

to > re-creations of the most popular TFQ maps. I would love to see somebodyuse > the NR2003 engine to do the same thing to GPL. > > Keep the original tracks and cars, but redo them all. Reloft the tracksand

Quoted text (10 lines)

> bring the poly count and texture density up to modern standards. Fix a > couple of inaccuracies that people have discovered. Update the car models > and use the correct team names. Keep the performance the same, but add in > proper tire and brake wear (after all, it's already in the engine). Maybe > even try and find out what those cars really had in terms of vertical aero > forces, because I'm pretty sure it wasn't zero. But all the while > preserving the essential character of the game that so many have become > addicted to over the last 5 years. > > It's a big job, but I think there are people in the mod community that

would > like to do it, and could pull it off. I'd love to see Papy do it > themselves, that would be the best thing. But if not them, then maybe the > Project Wildfire guys. Or GPLEA. Surely somebody will take this on.Come > on guys, the great gameplay we all love in a thoroughly up to dateengine - > what could be better than that? > >

And after that, (and a CART sim of course) I would love to see NASCAR Legends 2--same year as the first one, re-done with the new engine. Marc "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bc36uh$er293$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> GPL Classic. > > Not GPL 2. > > If you are into shooters you probably remember when Team Fortress 1.5 was > still Team Fortress Classic, and you might even remember when it was Team > Fortress Quake. While some didn't like it, I immediately enjoyed Team > Fortress Classic more then Team Fortress Quake, despite having played TFQ > for several years before TFC was released. Why? They took a great game, > put it in a more modern engine, fixed a number of nagging play balance > issues, and yet still remained faithful to the original, all the way down

to > re-creations of the most popular TFQ maps. I would love to see somebodyuse > the NR2003 engine to do the same thing to GPL. > > Keep the original tracks and cars, but redo them all. Reloft the tracksand

Quoted text (10 lines)

> bring the poly count and texture density up to modern standards. Fix a > couple of inaccuracies that people have discovered. Update the car models > and use the correct team names. Keep the performance the same, but add in > proper tire and brake wear (after all, it's already in the engine). Maybe > even try and find out what those cars really had in terms of vertical aero > forces, because I'm pretty sure it wasn't zero. But all the while > preserving the essential character of the game that so many have become > addicted to over the last 5 years. > > It's a big job, but I think there are people in the mod community that

would > like to do it, and could pull it off. I'd love to see Papy do it > themselves, that would be the best thing. But if not them, then maybe the > Project Wildfire guys. Or GPLEA. Surely somebody will take this on.Come > on guys, the great gameplay we all love in a thoroughly up to dateengine - > what could be better than that? > >

To be able to still control my throttle when the yaw exceeds 10 degrees off center.

"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:C1GFa.5962$[email hidden]: > And after that, (and a CART sim of course) I would love to see NASCAR > Legends 2--same year as the first one, re-done with the new engine. > > Marc > Have you been to the uspits recently Marc? http://www.tptcc.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=291 dave henrie

"Doug Hook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<jbwFa.97180$d51.164020@sccrnsc01>...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> what he said > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bc5u2m$els87$[email hidden]... > > If they would really follow the Valve model, it would be made available in > > three ways - as a free download, as an expansion pack for NR2003 or > perhaps > > included in an NR2003 Gold Edition, and as a stand-alone game. Really > this > > is the business model that put Valve on the map. Half-Life was certainly

[snip] I said it over a year ago ;) - http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=ebf6bab8.0202031816.7bc0fbb9%40posting.google.com Glad Papy may be seeing the light! Kendt

Jason Moyer wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:58:17 -0400, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >GPL Classic. > > GPL Classic and Nascar Legends Classic would top my list of quick and > dirty N2k3 mods. > > If something does something more extensive, I'd still really like CART > and/or Aussie V8's.

:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

I would like to see a NASCAR Legends Classic as well, with one addition: Dirt. They still ran races on dirt in 67. Finally, with the dirty windshields, etc. this can be done semi-convincingly. "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<C1GFa.5962$[email hidden]>...

Quoted text (45 lines)

> And after that, (and a CART sim of course) I would love to see NASCAR > Legends 2--same year as the first one, re-done with the new engine. > > Marc > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bc36uh$er293$[email hidden]... > > GPL Classic. > > > > Not GPL 2. > > > > If you are into shooters you probably remember when Team Fortress 1.5 was > > still Team Fortress Classic, and you might even remember when it was Team > > Fortress Quake. While some didn't like it, I immediately enjoyed Team > > Fortress Classic more then Team Fortress Quake, despite having played TFQ > > for several years before TFC was released. Why? They took a great game, > > put it in a more modern engine, fixed a number of nagging play balance > > issues, and yet still remained faithful to the original, all the way down > to > > re-creations of the most popular TFQ maps. I would love to see somebody > use > > the NR2003 engine to do the same thing to GPL. > > > > Keep the original tracks and cars, but redo them all. Reloft the tracks > and > > bring the poly count and texture density up to modern standards. Fix a > > couple of inaccuracies that people have discovered. Update the car models > > and use the correct team names. Keep the performance the same, but add in > > proper tire and brake wear (after all, it's already in the engine). Maybe > > even try and find out what those cars really had in terms of vertical aero > > forces, because I'm pretty sure it wasn't zero. But all the while > > preserving the essential character of the game that so many have become > > addicted to over the last 5 years. > > > > It's a big job, but I think there are people in the mod community that > would > > like to do it, and could pull it off. I'd love to see Papy do it > > themselves, that would be the best thing. But if not them, then maybe the > > Project Wildfire guys. Or GPLEA. Surely somebody will take this on. > Come > > on guys, the great gameplay we all love in a thoroughly up to date > engine - > > what could be better than that? > > > >

Whoops, somehow I missed that one, sorry. Anyway it's worth bringing up again! "Kendt Eklund" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > I said it over a year ago ;) - > >http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=ebf6bab8.0202031816.7bc0fbb9%40posting.google.com > > Glad Papy may be seeing the light! > > Kendt

They were starting to learn, although perhaps it depends on which team and which sport you are talking about. I know Chrysler started doing wind tunnel testing for their race cars about that time because some years later I worked for and with the guys that did it (uh, much later of course) and I heard about it from them virtually non-stop for the entire twelve years that I worked for them. ;o) But seriously, Chrysler did ground breaking work in spoiler and wing design and drafting aerodynamics in the late 60's, and it was no accident, it was all developed in the wind tunnel by former aerospace guys. By the time they got to the Daytona Charger they had a pretty good knowledge base built up already and were actually able to give the teams a cookbook of how to set up the spoilers and wings for each track. So I have to believe that somewhere somebody has an idea of what a late 60's open wheeler is like in the tunnel also. Either that or them NASCAR boys was just way ahead of everybody else... "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> Even the teams themselves had absolutely no idea at the time. > If you read Ron Tauranac's book (just one example which comes to mind > immediately) about his years with Brabham (and then RALT) your eyes will > open wide in amazement when you understand just how little was known about > aerodynamic forces on the cars up to and even beyond 1968. > > This was a period in time when every racing engineer and car designer was > dabbling with alchemy when it came to aerodynamics. > > Bruce. > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bc36uh$er293$[email hidden]... > >Maybe even try and find out what those cars really had in terms of

vertical > aero > > forces, because I'm pretty sure it wasn't zero. > >

Actually, Sprint cars had wings long before anybody else, even the Chaparrals in the early 60s. By the late 60s, A.J. Foyt had figured out tunnels, as I overheard him saying on a flight from Detroit to New York. Richie Ginther was the first one to put a spoiler on a Ferrari, in the late 50s/early 60s. "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bc87cf$gf2r7$[email hidden]... > They were starting to learn, although perhaps it depends on which team and > which sport you are talking about. I know Chrysler started doing wind > tunnel testing for their race cars about that time because some yearslater > I worked for and with the guys that did it (uh, much later of course) andI > heard about it from them virtually non-stop for the entire twelve yearsthat > I worked for them. ;o) But seriously, Chrysler did ground breaking workin > spoiler and wing design and drafting aerodynamics in the late 60's, and it > was no accident, it was all developed in the wind tunnel by formeraerospace > guys. By the time they got to the Daytona Charger they had a pretty good > knowledge base built up already and were actually able to give the teams a > cookbook of how to set up the spoilers and wings for each track. So Ihave

Quoted text (11 lines)

> to believe that somewhere somebody has an idea of what a late 60's open > wheeler is like in the tunnel also. Either that or them NASCAR boys was > just way ahead of everybody else... > > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Even the teams themselves had absolutely no idea at the time. > > If you read Ron Tauranac's book (just one example which comes to mind > > immediately) about his years with Brabham (and then RALT) your eyes will > > open wide in amazement when you understand just how little was known

about > > aerodynamic forces on the cars up to and even beyond 1968. > > > > This was a period in time when every racing engineer and car designerwas

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > dabbling with alchemy when it came to aerodynamics. > > > > Bruce. > > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:bc36uh$er293$[email hidden]... > > >Maybe even try and find out what those cars really had in terms of > vertical > > aero > > > forces, because I'm pretty sure it wasn't zero. > > > > > >

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bc87cf$gf2r7$[email hidden]... > They were starting to learn, although perhaps it depends on which team andwhich sport you are talking about. "Formula" cars (F1/F2/F3 etc) and all teams. Not only Taurancs book, but also "Lotus 49", by Michael Oliver and "Team Lotus" by Andrew Ferguson, make reference to the uncharted waters into which the designers were venturing. Although (as Steve mentions below - or above, depending on your News setup!) Jim Hall had applied the wing to his Chaparral before such a device appeared in F1, whatever he learned didn't formally pass on to the F1 brigade. Also bear in mind that the use of wind tunnels as a normal part of Formula car design was, in 1968, some years away. It has been said by "representatives" of Team Lotus that if wind tunnel testing had been available - or even thought of - when the strut-supported high wing was fitted to the Type 49 (and the Brabhams too, of course) and subsequently collapsed with almost fatal consequences then the result would have been quite different. The CSI/FAI would then have had no reason to ban the wings on safety grounds and who knows what may have eventuated with respect to aerofoils? Intriguing. :) Bruce

On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:29:19 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >:-) Blame Pro Race Driver. While pounding through all the series and killing everyone in the touring and stock cars, I hit the Aussie V8's and was like 'whoa' even without it being very realistic. The tracks rule, the cars are immensely powerful, and the racing is great. Oddly it was that game that made me realize how nice Mt Panorama is and to actually start racing it a lot in GPL. Jason

Jason Moyer wrote:

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:29:19 +0200, Goy Larsen > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >:-) > > Blame Pro Race Driver. While pounding through all the series and > killing everyone in the touring and stock cars, I hit the Aussie V8's > and was like 'whoa' even without it being very realistic. The tracks > rule, the cars are immensely powerful, and the racing is great. Oddly > it was that game that made me realize how nice Mt Panorama is and to > actually start racing it a lot in GPL.

Yeah, I mean, the first time I got to see these things on some now defunct sports channel we had available when I first got cable, I do believe it was the timed practice for Bathurst back in the days of GroupA and Nissan Skylines/Ford Cossies vs the Falcon/Commodore brigade, I was like WHOAAA, this is GREAT and started rooting for the V8's vs the "imports" :-), the rest as they say is history Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Thanks for the pointer. As long as the tracks (including dirt), bias ply tires, different aero, fuel economy, power ,etc. from 1970 can all be modelled, I'll be happy. I think that might be a bit harder than adding a 1970 skin onto the existing car model, though.... Marc "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:C1GFa.5962$[email hidden]: > > > And after that, (and a CART sim of course) I would love to see NASCAR > > Legends 2--same year as the first one, re-done with the new engine. > > > > Marc > > > Have you been to the uspits recently Marc? > > http://www.tptcc.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=291 > > dave henrie

Marc Collins wrote: > > Thanks for the pointer. As long as the tracks (including dirt), bias ply > tires, different aero, fuel economy, power ,etc. from 1970 can all be > modelled, I'll be happy. I think that might be a bit harder than adding a > 1970 skin onto the existing car model, though.... We're not just adding a 1970's skin, I can tell you that much :-), just how far the guys are able to take it is another question Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--