RASCAR: Roof riding

John you keep saying over and over there is "no shame" in roof riding. I disagree completely. It gives one driver (arcade_boys) a much larger FOV than the (simmers) non-roofriders get which just makes the situation worse. If both drivers see/dont see the same things (Like real-life) perhaps both would be more careful while overtaking. I for one can really tell when Im around a roof-rider for the simple fact that as I go into avoidance mode the roof-rider just takes advantage and closes the gap (horizontal) even more making me go further and further away from the intended line. Does roof-riding or aid use make the sim any more realistic? I had thought we all wanted realsim yet we have guys saying "There's no shame in roof-riding". How about preaching OFFLINE PRACTICE before you start online racing for starters.... Using driving aids is even more of a sin but if guys cant control their shit then use em. Hopefully the patch fixes the tire wear cheats for guys with Aids <g> Personally I want us to be using Hardcore mode as to create total fairness but my small voice just isnt heard. Mitch (bitch mode off)

> Personally I want us to be using Hardcore mode as to create total fairness > but my small voice just isnt heard. > > Mitch (bitch mode off) I like hardcore mode too.... mainly for the forced windshield buildup tho

I like *** mode too.... mainly for the forced windshield buildup tho

Mitch_A wrote:

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> John you keep saying over and over there is "no shame" in roof riding. I > disagree completely. It gives one driver (arcade_boys) a much larger FOV > than the (simmers) non-roofriders get which just makes the situation worse. > If both drivers see/dont see the same things (Like real-life) perhaps both > would be more careful while overtaking. I for one can really tell when Im > around a roof-rider for the simple fact that as I go into avoidance mode the > roof-rider just takes advantage and closes the gap (horizontal) even more > making me go further and further away from the intended line. Does > roof-riding or aid use make the sim any more realistic? I had thought we > all wanted realsim yet we have guys saying "There's no shame in > roof-riding". How about preaching OFFLINE PRACTICE before you start online > racing for starters....

I couldn't agree more! Roof riding is lame, and completely unrealistic. Mind you, I also think changing gear with a paddle or button, and driving with a joy stick is lame too.

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> > Using driving aids is even more of a sin but if guys cant control their shit > then use em. Hopefully the patch fixes the tire wear cheats for guys with > Aids <g> > > Personally I want us to be using Hardcore mode as to create total fairness > but my small voice just isnt heard.

The trouble with online racing in general is that many of the competitors are whining, thumb sucking, bed wetters who wouldn't stand a cat in hells chance of controlling a real car on a real track! I was getting beaten in GPL league races by people I knew were driving in a way that exploited a loophole in the physics (braking and using throttle at the same time) so I decided to not play with them anymore...so there! :) I'm back kart racing now, while racing offline in the evenings. Gerry

> I couldn't agree more! Roof riding is lame, and completely unrealistic. > Mind you, I also think changing gear with a paddle or button, and > driving with a joy stick is lame too. You change gears ? ;) So how do you change gears for those of us without a shifter, that would be fair in your view ?

Thank you Frank Sinatra for that lovely version of "I did it my way". Now for our next contestant. :-) Pete "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_wdTa.2897$[email hidden]... > John you keep saying over and over there is "no shame" in roof riding. I > disagree completely. It gives one driver (arcade_boys) a much larger FOV > than the (simmers) non-roofriders get which just makes the situationworse. > If both drivers see/dont see the same things (Like real-life) perhaps both > would be more careful while overtaking. I for one can really tell when Im > around a roof-rider for the simple fact that as I go into avoidance modethe > roof-rider just takes advantage and closes the gap (horizontal) even more > making me go further and further away from the intended line. Does > roof-riding or aid use make the sim any more realistic? I had thought we > all wanted realsim yet we have guys saying "There's no shame in > roof-riding". How about preaching OFFLINE PRACTICE before you startonline > racing for starters.... > > Using driving aids is even more of a sin but if guys cant control theirshit

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> then use em. Hopefully the patch fixes the tire wear cheats for guys with > Aids <g> > > Personally I want us to be using Hardcore mode as to create total fairness > but my small voice just isnt heard. > > Mitch (bitch mode off) > >

redTed wrote: >>I couldn't agree more! Roof riding is lame, and completely unrealistic. >>Mind you, I also think changing gear with a paddle or button, and >>driving with a joy stick is lame too. > > > You change gears ? ;) Yep, with a shifter. > So how do you change gears for those of us without a shifter, that would be > fair in your view ? I'm not talking about what's fair, but rather what's realistic and what's not. It is, of course, up to the individual to control their care with what ever lame implement they see fit. Gerry

buttons -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bfjrll$fhics$[email hidden]... > You change gears ? ;) > So how do you change gears for those of us without a shifter, that would be > fair in your view ? > > >

Roof Rider | | | |V V V V Tim White I will admit that driving outside the car isn't the correct way to do it. But I've driven that way since N1. Every once in awhile I think perhaps I should take another crack at driving inside the car. But my hearts' just not in it. I love seeing all the extra track stuff, the paint schemes, etc and would seriously miss that. Driving outside the car makes me a fan and a driver in one race; hard to get bored with both of them at the same time :) I also remember all the great in-car drivers I used to know that said they couldn't drive outside the car with anywhere near the skill they had driving in-car. So, it's a skill too. They both are. And I never had a problem with people using aids until N2003 when they suddenly made everyone faster without any real practice or effort. More to the point, it was a product of Papyrus not working out that bug more than anything else but hopefully that will pass with the patch. PS, I had no trouble driving inside the car at Silicon Motor Speedway, if that's any consolation :)

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:56:53 GMT, "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I will admit that driving outside the car isn't the correct way to do it. But I've driven that way since N1. >I am by no means a hardcore sim driver, previously I preferred playing arcade style games with an external view, but NR2003 and CMR3 are two games I much prefer playing with an in car view. Yes it is much harder, but it helps so much with the immersion of the game. I haven't had NR2003 for long, so am still learning it, but when I get good enough to play online, I would definitely want to know the other players were playing in cockpit view too. Andrew.

Tim, what blasphemy. How dare you do something the way you are most comfortable. This isn't about personal enjoyment. One must sacrifice and feel pain to get satisfaction. The roof police will get you. :-) Pete "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FVeTa.255647$[email hidden]...

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> Roof Rider > | | | | > V V V V > Tim White > > > I will admit that driving outside the car isn't the correct way to do it.

But I've driven that way since N1. > > Every once in awhile I think perhaps I should take another crack atdriving inside the car. But my hearts' just not in it. I love > seeing all the extra track stuff, the paint schemes, etc and wouldseriously miss that. Driving outside the car makes me a fan and > a driver in one race; hard to get bored with both of them at the same time:) > > I also remember all the great in-car drivers I used to know that said theycouldn't drive outside the car with anywhere near the > skill they had driving in-car. > > So, it's a skill too. They both are. And I never had a problem withpeople using aids until N2003 when they suddenly made everyone > faster without any real practice or effort. More to the point, it was aproduct of Papyrus not working out that bug more than > anything else but hopefully that will pass with the patch. > > > PS, I had no trouble driving inside the car at Silicon Motor Speedway, ifthat's any consolation :) > > >

> The roof police will get you. :-) >Ha ha. lol...even.

"Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Z4fTa.5673$[email hidden]... > Tim, what blasphemy. How dare you do something the way you are most > comfortable. > This isn't about personal enjoyment. One must sacrifice and feel pain toget

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> satisfaction. > The roof police will get you. :-) > > Pete > > "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:FVeTa.255647$[email hidden]... > > Roof Rider > > | | | | > > V V V V > > Tim White > > > > > > I will admit that driving outside the car isn't the correct way to do

it.

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> But I've driven that way since N1. > > > > Every once in awhile I think perhaps I should take another crack at > driving inside the car. But my hearts' just not in it. I love > > seeing all the extra track stuff, the paint schemes, etc and would > seriously miss that. Driving outside the car makes me a fan and > > a driver in one race; hard to get bored with both of them at the same

time > :) > > > > I also remember all the great in-car drivers I used to know that saidthey

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> couldn't drive outside the car with anywhere near the > > skill they had driving in-car. > > > > So, it's a skill too. They both are. And I never had a problem with > people using aids until N2003 when they suddenly made everyone > > faster without any real practice or effort. More to the point, it was a > product of Papyrus not working out that bug more than > > anything else but hopefully that will pass with the patch. > > > > > > PS, I had no trouble driving inside the car at Silicon Motor Speedway,

if > that's any consolation :) > > I agree whole heartedly that the roof riders have a great advantage and are just a bunch of mama's boys. Elrikk (confirmed kite flyer mode driver) ;o) / duck & cover mode ON

Least I'll see 'em coming before you will lol -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Z4fTa.5673$[email hidden]... > The roof police will get you. :-) >

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:11:02 +0100, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote: >I couldn't agree more! Roof riding is lame, and completely unrealistic. >Mind you, I also think changing gear with a paddle or button, and >driving with a joy stick is lame too. What if you only play modern F1 and CART sims? Jason

If only we could use the helicopter. :-) Pete "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jjgTa.255655$[email hidden]... > Least I'll see 'em coming before you will lol > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com >

Jason Moyer wrote:

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> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:11:02 +0100, Gerry Aitken > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >>I couldn't agree more! Roof riding is lame, and completely unrealistic. >>Mind you, I also think changing gear with a paddle or button, and >>driving with a joy stick is lame too. > > > What if you only play modern F1 and CART sims? > > Jason

Obviously paddles are as realistic as you can get for F1 sims. Don't they have manual boxes in CART still?

Gerry Aitken wrote: > Don't they have manual boxes in CART still? Sequential stck shift I think -- Ian P <email invalid due to spammers>

So, is the goal to get a realistic experience in RASCAR? Or is it to try to race without hitting one another and finish the race complete with pit stragety and oral arguements after the race? Or maybe a combination of both? I wonder how many yellow flags we would have if we had the hardcore option turned on? It would be an interesting trial say on a friday night on someones server when we have absolutly nothing to do. Anyone want to host a hardcore RASCAR race this week just for kicks?

In article <_wdTa.2897$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > John you keep saying over and over there is "no shame" in roof riding. I > disagree completely. Whatever blows your skirt up Mitch. But keep in mind that I never once claimed that people who drive in the cockpit and thinks everyone else should too are narrow-minded realism nazis with a feeble grasp on what's truly important to a given individual. :) > It gives one driver (arcade_boys) a much larger FOV > than the (simmers) non-roofriders get which just makes the situation worse. How's that? Have I demonstrated any less ability than a driver who drives in-car? Tim is most certainly faster than me, and is fatser than you, yet he's pretty much accident-free in RASCAR events and he wins more often than not. > If both drivers see/dont see the same things (Like real-life) perhaps both > would be more careful while overtaking. Okay, let's see... I saw several accidents in time to slow down and avoid them at NH and at Chicago. How many of the people that weren't able to see the accidents in time were driving in-car? Further, watch me in the replays at chicago and louden. There were several times when I backed off because I didn't like the look/smell of an overtaking situation (with me doing the overtaking). I'm pretty sure that you'll see as much give as take on my part. But damnit - I'm a roof-rider, so that doesn't matter, does it? One more thing - go back to the replay at Papy Motorsport Park and watch that last lap again. It was you and me through the last three turns. At the time of the race, you said you backed off because you got a little confuised about how many more laps were left or something. That didn't sound like you were nervous about my driving. > I for one can really tell when Im > around a roof-rider for the simple fact that as I go into avoidance mode the > roof-rider just takes advantage and closes the gap (horizontal) even more > making me go further and further away from the intended line. You don't go into avoidance mode around me (and I have several replays from this season and last season to prove it). In fact, I rather enjoy racing you Mitch because you're not afraid to mix it up and race close. > Does roof-riding or aid use make the sim any more realistic? I don't know if it does or doesn't. But let me ask you - have you ever driven a real stockcar at speed? I have, and this sim is so far from realistic it's laughable. > I had thought we > all wanted realsim yet we have guys saying "There's no shame in > roof-riding". I do want realism, but we're never gonna get what I consider enough realism to warrant the vilification of people who are simply more comfortable driving their car a certain way. I'm certainly not ashamed to say I ride the roof, and I think more people in RASCAR would be more competitive and drive better if they did it too. However, I'm not gonna stand up and proclaim that anyone that doesn't is as moron. Little secret (or maybe not) - I drove two full seasons in GPL in chase mode, and have been driving the papy sims in roof mode since NR4. In previous versions I drove in-car. > How about preaching OFFLINE PRACTICE before you start online > racing for starters.... I *do* regularly urge/insist that people practice before they show up for a race. I don't care if the practice online or offline, but they most certainly should put in about a hundred laps at the next track on the schedule - EVERY WEEK. > Using driving aids is even more of a sin but if guys cant control their shit > then use em. Well, since we're in a fixed setup league, I think the aids are fine. Simply put (and demonstrated on a weekly basis) some folks just can't get a grip on the fast setup. If they need to use aids to make it drivable, that's fine with me. In fact, I'm using aids right now primarily because of my diminished physical capacity. It's tough to drive these setups with one hand (and the one I don't normally use, at that) and not being able to shift. I use auto trans (and believe me that's HELL on pit entry) and stability control, and sometimes, a little bit of steering assist. Once again, I don't mind saying I use aids, and I never have. > Hopefully the patch fixes the tire wear cheats for guys with > Aids <g> That will have absolutely no bearing on RASCAR races since we use fixed setups. > Personally I want us to be using Hardcore mode as to create total fairness > but my small voice just isnt heard. Absolutely not. If you want hardcore, find it in another league, but RASCAR will not be using hardcore mode, at least not while I have any input on the subject. I'm not trashing the desire for "realism" - god knows I'd like to see more of it - but I want everyone in RASCAR to drive better and if that means using aids, more power to them. IMHO, Eldred should at least try roof-riding (for a while) to see if it makes him more competitive.

Ian P wrote:

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> Gerry Aitken wrote: > > >>Don't they have manual boxes in CART still? > > > Sequential stck shift I think

OK, the actlab shifter supports sequential shifting, btw. Gerry

John Simmons wrote:

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> >>Personally I want us to be using Hardcore mode as to create total fairness >>but my small voice just isnt heard. > > > Absolutely not. If you want hardcore, find it in another league, but > RASCAR will not be using hardcore mode, at least not while I have any > input on the subject.

Not even if the majority wanted it? Gerry

>>Personally I want us to be using *** mode as to create total fairness >>but my small voice just isnt heard. > Absolutely not. If you want ***, find it in another league, but > RASCAR will not be using *** mode, at least not while I have any > input on the subject. Not even if the majority wanted it? Gerry

Let me also say: My name is grubbat, and I am a roof rider. I feel better now. grub "grub" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > So, is the goal to get a realistic experience in RASCAR? Or is it totry > to race without hitting one another and finish the race complete with pit > stragety and oral arguements after the race? Or maybe a combination ofboth? > I wonder how many yellow flags we would have if we had the hardcore > option turned on? It would be an interesting trial say on a friday nighton > someones server when we have absolutly nothing to do. Anyone want to hosta > hardcore RASCAR race this week just for kicks? > >

Democracy? Gerry, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. This is a republic. Majority rules dont make it and never would. grub anarchy bat "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > John Simmons wrote: > > > >>Personally I want us to be using Hardcore mode as to create totalfairness

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> >>but my small voice just isnt heard. > > > > > > Absolutely not. If you want hardcore, find it in another league, but > > RASCAR will not be using hardcore mode, at least not while I have any > > input on the subject. > > > Not even if the majority wanted it? > > Gerry >

No!! Say it isn't so. What is the world coming to. :-) Pete "grub" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Let me also say: > My name is grubbat, and I am a roof rider. > I feel better now. > grub

"grub" wrote... > <snip> > I wonder how many yellow flags we would have if we > had the hardcore option turned on? The number of yellows does is not linked to a particular setting. It's about how well people are used to the settings they use. If they fail to recognise any false sense of security the settings might provide or they make assumptions on how people will respond by the way they experience the game (which is radically different to those who don't use the settings), that's where it starts to get dangerous. That does work both ways, BTW. If you host a race like that and you get anyone who doesn't already race to "hardcore" specifications, you'll have a number of guys who are racing under unfamiliar conditions. You will have cautions and habitual roofriders will be involved. You could base all kinds of conclusions on that, but they would be false. Would be good to know how people drive, though. It's a good thing to keep in mind when one has more than a split second to respond. Jan. =---

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> John Simmons wrote: > > > >>Personally I want us to be using Hardcore mode as to create total fairness > >>but my small voice just isnt heard. > > > > > > Absolutely not. If you want hardcore, find it in another league, but > > RASCAR will not be using hardcore mode, at least not while I have any > > input on the subject. > > > Not even if the majority wanted it? > > Gerry > >

Not even. I'd rather have a large group of admitted amateurs than a small groups of seeming know-it-alls.

In article <cViTa.27231$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> > You could base all kinds of conclusions on that, but they would > be false. > > Would be good to know how people drive, though. It's a good thing to keep in > mind when one has more than a split second to respond. >

And that's a perfect illustration of what's wrong with the logic. You could base all kinds of conclusions on that, but they'd all be false. I don't care if people drive from the freakin trunk view as long as they won't wreck me.

Kudos John. Not that my opinion matters but I think you are taking the correct approach. Pete "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > John Simmons wrote: > Not even. I'd rather have a large group of admitted amateurs than a > small groups of seeming know-it-alls. >

"grub" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... : So, is the goal to get a realistic experience in RASCAR? Or is it to try : to race without hitting one another and finish the race complete with pit : stragety and oral arguements after the race? Or maybe a combination of both? : I wonder how many yellow flags we would have if we had the hardcore : option turned on? It would be an interesting trial say on a friday night on : someones server when we have absolutly nothing to do. Anyone want to host a : hardcore RASCAR race this week just for kicks? : : I'm in. I drive in hardcore mode anyway. I also use paddle shifters but would love to have and actual H pattern shifter. I think that would be a great help in my driving, the paddles in sequential mode are a serious handling handicap in the game. I use my buttons for the F1 keys which I feel allow me to track information/give pit commands without leaving my controler (offsets paddles). -- McWhom -----------------------------------------------------------------

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > John Simmons wrote: > > > > > >>Personally I want us to be using Hardcore mode as to create totalfairness

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> > >>but my small voice just isnt heard. > > > > > > > > > Absolutely not. If you want hardcore, find it in another league, but > > > RASCAR will not be using hardcore mode, at least not while I have any > > > input on the subject. > > > > > > Not even if the majority wanted it? > > > > Gerry > > > > > > Not even. I'd rather have a large group of admitted amateurs than a > small groups of seeming know-it-alls. >

John, will you be setting up a practice server for the Pocono race? The online practice at New Hampshire was a big help to me. Thanks. bluestringer

I just cannot drive from the roof, I don't *feel* the sides of the car there. I could ride the trunk though and have been experimenting with that a little lately. Maybe, maybe.... currently I am trying steering aid set to 25% due to some of the threads here. I also set linierity to 100%, again due to what I have read here. So far I have noticed that top dead center bounces back and forth coming out of corners, not sure if I am better capable of handling it becuase I have been using this wheel for a while or if the combo makes it drivable. I don't like it but I do feel that in the *majority* of situations, this steering setup is an improvement. Remember, it is a game. We want it to be as realistic as possible for our own individual reasons and that also includes our own individual level of realism. Each driver has played with the options, learned and subsequently become comfortable with the way they drive. Thus experience, no matter the settings, is what makes good racing. -- McWhom ----------------------------------------------------------------- "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... : In article <_wdTa.2897$[email hidden]>, : [email hidden] says... :

In article <7ojTa.2787$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > > John, will you be setting up a practice server for the Pocono race? The > online practice at New Hampshire was a big help to me. Thanks. It's up.

Well, to really get the real simulation experience you need: flame proof driving suit, shoes, gloves, and underwear. carbon monoxide injection heat heat heat, especially at your feet. in-car camera so everyone can see you flip off the aliens when they win water bottle sim set on hardcore, the constant pressure to perform well by your sponsors and finally, some money out of your @##, to help you understand the cost associated with real racing. The fact of the matter is, the kind of entertainment you get out of sim racing is up to you and only you. If you want to play on the roof as I do, great. If you want to play in the cockpit, thats great too. The arguement about whether its far or not, well, no applicable in RASCAR because we just want to race and have fun. We do honor someone's wish to run in the cockpit view by respecting there request to pace in a straight line and things such as that. Now, while you realist are driving around in the cockpit mode, I am fixin' to go out and pay someone to fix me up a short block for my ford 2000. The last one I built ate the rod bearings and crank. :( I'm living the real thing (and enjoying it), but I think you realist sim guys are smarter . :) grub "mcwhom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > "grub" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > : So, is the goal to get a realistic experience in RASCAR? Or is it to > try > : to race without hitting one another and finish the race complete with

pit > : stragety and oral arguements after the race? Or maybe a combination of > both? > : I wonder how many yellow flags we would have if we had the hardcore > : option turned on? It would be an interesting trial say on a friday night > on > : someones server when we have absolutly nothing to do. Anyone want tohost

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> a > : hardcore RASCAR race this week just for kicks? > : > : > > I'm in. I drive in hardcore mode anyway. > I also use paddle shifters but would love to have and actual H pattern > shifter. I think that would be a great help in my driving, the paddles in > sequential mode are a serious handling handicap in the game. I use my > buttons for the F1 keys which I feel allow me to track information/give

pit

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> commands without leaving my controler (offsets paddles). > > -- > McWhom > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >

"Realistic", crap! It's a GAME, is there to be enjoyed, as entertainment. You want realism, then take up a motorsport for real. Until virtual death and injury is included in these GAMES, stop complaining about lack of realism or players circumventing realism in the game itself. (Even million-dollar flight simulators allow the crew to walk away from a disaster). Bruce. "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm not talking about what's fair, but rather what's realistic and > what's not.

Ok here goes. "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > Whatever blows your skirt up Mitch. But keep in mind that I never > once claimed that people who drive in the cockpit and thinks everyone > else should too are narrow-minded realism nazis with a feeble grasp > on what's truly important to a given individual. :) From a realism nazi to a mfg nazi <g> Here comes Toyota John. Call me naive I guess cause this group is called rec.autos.SIMULATORS not rec.autos.arcadegames. Hell until a couple years ago I'd assumed everyone was running inside the cockpit. I attended a Likereal LAN event and was shocked by the number of roof-riders. Do I accept it a simulated reality, hell no. > > How's that? Have I demonstrated any less ability than a driver who > drives in-car? Tim is most certainly faster than me, and is fatser > than you, yet he's pretty much accident-free in RASCAR events and he > wins more often than not. >When youre out front all the time the liklihood of getting wrecked is greatly diminished. No Ive never been that fast nor do I question your abilities John but we run fixed setups for fairness right? Some just dont have the time to make their own setups. This is my point here, fairness. Yes I know it's a two way street. > Okay, let's see... I saw several accidents in time to slow down and > avoid them at NH and at Chicago. How many of the people that weren't > able to see the accidents in time were driving in-car? > I run with smoke on so I usually see up ahead just fine. I do have a few issues with racing back to the line. It's absolutely nothing but a giant clusterfuck and the main reason guys dont FN slow down when wrecks happen. I noticed Eldred was none to happy 'bout it either on sat. We need a no racing rule if this thread accomplishes nothing else.

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> Further, watch me in the replays at chicago and louden. There were > several times when I backed off because I didn't like the look/smell > of an overtaking situation (with me doing the overtaking). I'm > pretty sure that you'll see as much give as take on my part. But > damnit - I'm a roof-rider, so that doesn't matter, does it? > > One more thing - go back to the replay at Papy Motorsport Park and > watch that last lap again. It was you and me through the last three > turns. At the time of the race, you said you backed off because you > got a little confuised about how many more laps were left or > something. That didn't sound like you were nervous about my driving.

Absolutely not. I have confidence in your driving whether on the roof or not. Its not about driving ability its about fairness. The last lap at PMP was me srewing the pooch entering T4. I was too fn busy watching you in the mirror and overshot the entry pushing up the track bad. I did completely let off after taking the white flag, stricly a brain fart on my part althought you could feasibly blame the number of yellow laps for the lack of my concentration at that point. That didnt bother me though cause of all the BS prior to the last lap.

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> > > You don't go into avoidance mode around me (and I have several > replays from this season and last season to prove it). In fact, I > rather enjoy racing you Mitch because you're not afraid to mix it up > and race close. >

Racing is racing. I will run some hard and others not so hard. Depends on the situation. > I don't know if it does or doesn't. But let me ask you - have you > ever driven a real stockcar at speed? I have, and this sim is so far > from realistic it's laughable. I have never driven a stocker at speed but I have sat in one. Peripheral vision is severly hampered, unlike your view from the roof. There would be no need for spotters if they rode the roof <g>

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> > I do want realism, but we're never gonna get what I consider enough > realism to warrant the vilification of people who are simply more > comfortable driving their car a certain way. I'm certainly not > ashamed to say I ride the roof, and I think more people in RASCAR > would be more competitive and drive better if they did it too. > However, I'm not gonna stand up and proclaim that anyone that doesn't > is as moron.

Im not proclaiming anyone is a moron, well maybe a few but thats a different thread altogether <g>. > Well, since we're in a fixed setup league, I think the aids are fine. > Simply put (and demonstrated on a weekly basis) some folks just can't > get a grip on the fast setup. If they need to use aids to make it > drivable, that's fine with me. As Ive said before I believe we need to be a little harder on the rooks just so we dont have to spend countless laps under caution cause they cant turn a fn lap while alone on the track. Aids rarely make a driver a better racer just faster.

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> Once again, I don't mind saying I use aids, and I never have. > > > > Hopefully the patch fixes the tire wear cheats for guys with > > Aids <g> > > That will have absolutely no bearing on RASCAR races since we use > fixed setups. > > > Absolutely not. If you want hardcore, find it in another league, but > RASCAR will not be using hardcore mode, at least not while I have any > input on the subject.

Here I do have issues. Over time you have taken the job of series admin. This is just fine and dandy until you start making decisions about whom can or cant run with us or how we should run. If the majority of RAS drivers want it one way then thats what should happen, not cause "John" wants it that way. Bear in mind we ALL greatly appreciate the effort you put forth but thats because YOU chose to do the grunt work. How that turned into a dictatorship I dont know. A guy back in the 30's nevermind <g>.

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> > I'm not trashing the desire for "realism" - god knows I'd like to see > more of it - but I want everyone in RASCAR to drive better and if > that means using aids, more power to them. > > IMHO, Eldred should at least try roof-riding (for a while) to see if > it makes him more competitive. >

Don't do it E <g> Mitch BTW Im not just pissin and moanin here, these are points that should be discussed.

For me its not so much the realism but the fact that it offers a level playing field. Personally I cant stand the roof view, im way more comfortable in the car. But what bothers me more than the view is the driving aids, like Tim says it can give people a huge advantage.

Bruce Kennewell wrote: > "Realistic", crap! > It's a GAME, is there to be enjoyed, as entertainment. > You want realism, then take up a motorsport for real. I have, I wrote as much in this thread. Do try to keep up! :) > Until virtual death and injury is included in these GAMES, stop complaining > about lack of realism or players circumventing realism in the game itself. No, I'll carry on putting across my POV. > (Even million-dollar flight simulators allow the crew to walk away from a > disaster). Really, do they! How unrealistic!! Gerry

My pedantic point exactly, young Gerald Bruce. "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Really, do they! How unrealistic!!

"grub" wrote... > <Snip> > I'm living the real thing (and enjoying it), but I think > you realist sim guys are smarter . :) Less hard up, anyway. Jan. =---

Less hard up, anyway. Jan. =---

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3f1e0d20$[email hidden]>... > "Realistic", crap! > It's a GAME, is there to be enjoyed, as entertainment. > You want realism, then take up a motorsport for real. I posted an article on our website recently about this "only a game" bollocks. I'll condense what I wrote: OF COURSE it's only a game. So is football. So is "real" motorsport. It's for fun. Games, sports - they are all competitions. Once people start bending or breaking rules to gain an advantage, the "game" ceases to become fun. Now, as far as I'm concerned, with N2K3, if it's in the game it's not cheating. But I do get a tad frustrated when I've practised my "game" in order to be able to drive consistently then someone else comes along using driving aids and whips my butt. We have a front runner in our league who uses aids. He's great out in front, and if he's there he never makes a mistake. His racecraft leaves a lot to be desired but he's a fast lapper, He claims the car is "undriveable" without the aids. But I get by OK. I've put in the effort. As with ANY sport or game, the more you put in, the more you get out. I like not using any aids. I like knowing that wherever I'm placed in a race, be it first or last, it's been, as far as possible, my own hard work that's got me there. YES! Hard work CAN equate to fun! If I've had a race long battle for position (wherever it is in the field), I can finish dripping with sweat due to the intensity. And it's a FANTASTIC feeling. Just because I'm not gonna end up in hospital or the morgue if I crash, doesn't mean I am not *actually* racing. The fact that the arena is virtual is completely irrelevant. Taking the sim-racing seriously CAN add to the fun! I am disappointed if I spin out, I am gutted if I take someone else out and by the same token I am ecstatic if I get a good position. It's like the honour system. I treat the events with as much respect as if they were real and I get the personal gratification when it all comes good. Did I say condense? I went off on one again... ;-) Getting back to the viewpoint issue. I use as few aids as possible because THAT'S WHAT I ENJOY! I use the cockpit view BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT I ENJOY! I'm not on some quest to appear superior, I just want to enjoy my simracing my way. I'm not *against* roof-riders, kite flyers, or those who use stability control, steering assist, or whatever. People obviously get different things out of their sims. I like the cockpit view - It's where I drive from in *any* sim / game. It happens to be the only place I can drive from. I have no idea what the car is doing otherwise. I can sympathise with the view of those who would like a hardcore mode to be considered. The FACT is that it will level that playing field. Level playing fields with hard and fast rules make for more fun games, IMO. Having said that, although my preference of for hardcore, I would not inflict it on our main Saturday event but I may propose a midweek season that is more restrictive once that patch comes out. Realistic or not, I want my simming experience to be as immersive as is reasonable. That means I've paid out on half decent PC hardware to get a OK graphical representation of my surroundings. I've paid for half-decent wheels, pedals and shifter. I pay for ADSL connection speed. I pay for server hire costs so that I have others to race against. I've gone as far as my budget will allow. Doesn't get much more "real" than cash-money, does it? I have *not* switched on a heater by my feet. I have *not* employed someone to hit me with a 2x4 upside my head whenever I hit the wall. I do *not* burn oil and rubber in the corner of the room for added "atmosphere". These are, IMO, unreasonable additions as they are outside of the simracing realm. Point laboured enough, I guess :) Regards, Mark http://www.v8thunder.com/

Me thinks you misread my posts intent. ;-) -- McWhom ----------------------------------------------------------------- "grub"

"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:i2oTa.3158$[email hidden]... <big ol snip> : : As Ive said before I believe we need to be a little harder on the rooks just : so we dont have to spend countless laps under caution cause they cant turn a : fn lap while alone on the track. Aids rarely make a driver a better racer : just faster. : : Well, as a rook ;-), I turned on both traction control and stability for NH. I just could not drive that track. I can drive phoenix and have a blast and it is a flat track so I don't know?? It definetly did not make me faster, but I could turn those damn corners and did not wreck anyone. At least not that I have been bitched at about, course two restarts on the inside was enough for me, the second one was waaaaayyyy hairy and I thought I caused the wreck up high in the first turn but on my replay it looks like that happened on it's own. Anyway, two restarts up there was enough, I was happy just to stay on the track in the back of the field. Laps is what it is all about, gotta keep turnin 'em. I learned a lot about getting around there by being able to watch other drivers(who's style I am starting to recognize), and see how they handled late entry, too fast etc.... For me, the closest simulation I can attain is my aim. Simulation! I personally never liked the arcade systems and the default roof riding view. I like looking through the windshield :-) As far as the cars around me? Hell boys, the last two races I watched qual times on tv, papy, and rascar. Guess what, you sim boys are faster than the real guys. hmm, yeah, realistic, ok,,,right <Eg> Maybe when I get fast enough to think I could win I will feel differently but.....As long as the guys/gals I am racing are making the same effort I am to get around the track fast without wrecking themselves, let alone anyone else then that will be a good race. Use what gets you around the track fast and safe. : > Absolutely not. If you want hardcore, find it in another league, but : > RASCAR will not be using hardcore mode, at least not while I have any : > input on the subject. Devil's Advocate: But that would be fair. Course, so would making us ride the roof with you be fair. : BTW Im not just pissin and moanin here, these are points that should be : discussed. : : I would say that is happening. :-) -- McWhom -----------------------------------------------------------------

> I was getting beaten in GPL league races by people I knew were driving > in a way that exploited a loophole in the physics (braking and using > throttle at the same time) so I decided to not play with them > anymore...so there! :) I'm always surprised when people say that using throttle and brake together is 'unrealistic'. The percentages and frequency with which it's done may differ between sims and real road or offroad cars, but it works in a real car just as it works in Papy's sims, and when I was younger and drove my cars on the limit more often, and cars were still rear wheel driven, I used to practice and do it from time to time myself. To be honest, mainly after Walter Roehrl said he's doing it a lot <g> although a few times I even did it on motorcycles (to stabilise them when the started oscillating). Of course it's a lot more difficult with the classical pedal layout and without automatic transmission, so it certainly happens more often in cars which can be left-foot braked, and the amount of throttle you'd apply probably differs for various reasons from what Gerry refers to when he talks about simmers doing it. And you'll probably use it offroads more than on tarmac, and it probably also is related to how often the car slides, but it works and is not unrealistic at all. It's just difficult to do. But nobody really knows whether drivers like Jim Clark didn't use it as well from time to time, maybe even subconsciously. I know Gerry's a hardcore realism driver, so for him, using anything but realistic controls diminishes the fun. But, since most online racers use comparable controllers, the competition is still fair and on a level playground for most of us when we use these techniques. Achim

And this from the man for whom it was so important that GPL's Isle of Man track would not be converted to sims simulating 'IoM-unworthy' cars? ;-) Achim "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3f1e0d20$[email hidden]... > "Realistic", crap! > It's a GAME, is there to be enjoyed, as entertainment. > You want realism, then take up a motorsport for real. > > Until virtual death and injury is included in these GAMES, stopcomplaining > about lack of realism or players circumventing realism in the game itself.

Gerry, it's only lame if you use a better controller but still don't get faster than someone using an inferior controller. If technical advantage gets transformed into speed, there's nothing lame about it :) Achim "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > redTed wrote: > >>I couldn't agree more! Roof riding is lame, and completely unrealistic. > >>Mind you, I also think changing gear with a paddle or button, and > >>driving with a joy stick is lame too.

Joachim, this is sort of off the topic but what ever became of John Wallace? I was looking through some things the other day (house cleaning) and I found a message from him I had printed out. Sort of miss his contributions. Pete "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bflrmo$gagrc$[email hidden]... > And this from the man for whom it was so important that GPL's Isle of Man > track would not be converted to sims simulating 'IoM-unworthy' cars? ;-) > > Achim

I have no idea. He married a long time ago, and since then I haven't heard much from him anymore. AAMOF, I also lost contact with Marc Nelson, and I really regret this. I don't know what they're doing right now. Achim "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aCxTa.74$[email hidden]... > Joachim, this is sort of off the topic but what ever became of > John Wallace? I was looking through some things the other day > (house cleaning) and I found a message from him I had printed > out. Sort of miss his contributions.

Joachim Trensz wrote: > > I have no idea. He married a long time ago, and since then I haven't heard > much from him anymore. AAMOF, I also lost contact with Marc Nelson, and I > really regret this. > > I don't know what they're doing right now. Marc Nelson was associated with www.3dtrains.com or something like that for a while, don't know if he still is Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Joachim Trensz wrote: > Gerry, it's only lame if you use a better controller but still don't get > faster than someone using an inferior controller. If technical advantage > gets transformed into speed, there's nothing lame about it :) > > Achim Can you define what you mean by 'better'? Gerry

Joachim Trensz wrote:

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>>I was getting beaten in GPL league races by people I knew were driving >>in a way that exploited a loophole in the physics (braking and using >>throttle at the same time) so I decided to not play with them >>anymore...so there! :) > > > I'm always surprised when people say that using throttle and brake together > is 'unrealistic'. The percentages and frequency with which it's done may > differ between sims and real road or offroad cars, but it works in a real > car just as it works in Papy's sims, and when I was younger and drove my > cars on the limit more often, and cars were still rear wheel driven, I used > to practice and do it from time to time myself. To be honest, mainly after > Walter Roehrl said he's doing it a lot <g> although a few times I even did > it on motorcycles (to stabilise them when the started oscillating). > > Of course it's a lot more difficult with the classical pedal layout and > without automatic transmission, so it certainly happens more often in cars > which can be left-foot braked, and the amount of throttle you'd apply > probably differs for various reasons from what Gerry refers to when he talks > about simmers doing it. And you'll probably use it offroads more than on > tarmac, and it probably also is related to how often the car slides, but it > works and is not unrealistic at all. It's just difficult to do. But nobody > really knows whether drivers like Jim Clark didn't use it as well from time > to time, maybe even subconsciously. > > I know Gerry's a hardcore realism driver, so for him, using anything but > realistic controls diminishes the fun. But, since most online racers use > comparable controllers, the competition is still fair and on a level > playground for most of us when we use these techniques. > > Achim > >

Ok, Achim, I'm in my MX5 going around the old 67 version of Silverstone. I'm heading at full blast towards T3, the revs peak in 5th gear as I reach the braking zone. So how will braking while nailing the throttle at the same time make me exit T3 faster than if I heel and toed? Also, same track same question, but I'm in a real Lotus 49? TIA Gerry

> I wonder how many yellow flags we would have if we had the hardcore >option turned on? It would be an interesting trial say on a friday night on >someones server when we have absolutly nothing to do. Anyone want to host a >hardcore RASCAR race this week just for kicks? Sure, I'll host. I'm betting that after the first couple of wrecks, most cars will be too damaged to continue. The last 3 or 4 will drive until they get bored and quit...<g> Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>> How about preaching OFFLINE PRACTICE before you start online >> racing for starters.... > >I *do* regularly urge/insist that people practice before they show up >for a race. I don't care if the practice online or offline, but they >most certainly should put in about a hundred laps at the next track >on the schedule - EVERY WEEK. >

IMO, the same time constraints that prevent people from joining 'official' leagues also keep people from running the number of practice laps you'd like to see. >IMHO, Eldred should at least try roof-riding (for a while) to see if >it makes him more competitive. Maybe, but I'd hate to screw up my perspective in other cars/games... For some reason when I drive in roof view, I have even less 'feel' for the car. Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Bruce Kennewell wrote: > My pedantic point exactly, young Gerald Well, as long as you know where you're coming from!

>At least not that I have been bitched at about, >course two restarts on the inside was enough for me, the second one was >waaaaayyyy hairy and I thought I caused the wreck up high in the first turn >but on my replay it looks like that happened on it's own. Anyway, two >restarts up there was enough, I was happy just to stay on the track in the >back of the field. Thanks for reminding me about that. I understand your reluctance to start up near the front on the restarts. I've been there myself. But, if anyone is behind you, you staying near the back deprives him of the chance to possible make up a lap(since he can't pass you without getting a BF). I couldn't keep track easily of which cars were a lap down, and now many. So I don't know if this actually affected anyone saturday. But if no one is behind you, sure - start near the back if it makes you more comfortable. If someone IS behind you, stay up front, but annouce that they should pass you on the right at the start. When the flag drops, pull to the left and slow to let everyone pass safely. Just a suggestion... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:13:03 -0400, "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Joachim, this is sort of off the topic but what ever became of >John Wallace? I was looking through some things the other day >(house cleaning) and I found a message from him I had printed >out. Sort of miss his contributions. > > Pete That makes me feel wierd - first time I've stopped by r.a.s. in ages, and read the above! Actually had been out of sims for ages, basically since my industry went into a nosedive and work got too stressful. Recently clicked that stopping doing the things which alleviate stress (sim-racing being one) to have more time to devote to the things which cause stress is "a bad thing". So, reinstalled GPL, bought F1-2002 and added GTR2002, bought F1C, and basically searching around for what a once keen sim-racer should be looking at these days. N2003 sounds good, but open to any suggestions. John

My replies are in there somewhere <g> continue. "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > This sounds awfully close to "I can tell when I'm around a cheater > because he's faster than me". Maybe I'm missing something, Im not implying cheating at all Mr. Hilsman. If one guy can see to a greater degree then I call it un-fair not cheating. Yes I realize I can roof-ride to offset the unfairness but it just feel like an arcade game and lacks immersion (keyword) for me.

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> It's already given that cockpit > drivers have the best FOV with look left/right, but it's not too > realistic to push a button to look around is it? Personally I can't > even do it, I'm in the wall if I look around. Real drivers have > cockpit obstructions and such but they can and do turn their heads a > bit to see beside them. Is there a view that is more like the real > world, that allows you to see a little beside you without a button, > something a bit more like the real drivers do?

I don't usually look left/right either. I lose focus to easily hehe. I really enjoy the advanced head physics of F1C. Your head tracks where the car is pointed. Others have done it in the past (MS Precision Racing comes to mind) but F1C seems to be the first to get it right. It really helps the immersion factor IMO. I would like similar options for Papy sims but that aint gonna happen now <g>.

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> > Yes indeed, but some people are allergic to it because it's positioned > on the roof, and claim it's an advantage and 'arcadish' (as if driving > a computer game and pressing buttons to look around isn't!). It's > actually a disadvantage because it doesn't have as much FOV as looking > left/right, and it's more realistic because it doesn't require > buttons. > > It really depends on how you want to implement your 'realism' doesn't > it? > > > >Using driving aids is even more of a sin but if guys cant control their

shit > >then use em. Hopefully the patch fixes the tire wear cheats for guys with > >Aids <g> > > So even though aids are 'more of a sin' they are ok but driving from > the roof isn't?? I don't understand that at all, but I'm with you on > the tire cheats - that's a load of BS :( I come from the *old* world where driving AIDS actually made the car more stable but at a speed/performance cost. I know get out of the past Mitch <g>. > > 'Total fairness' won't ever happen unless everyone is using the same > spec computer with the exact same graphic settings, connection speed > and quality, controller, etc etc. This is a good point. I would say the items you mention making things unfair would be closer to reality as well. As in RL the more you spend the faster you are (most times anyway). Some teams budget are 2-3 times that of some of the backmarkers. This is still actually pretty fair as if you desire the high end then go purchase it <g> Mitch > > >

I just did some back-of-the-envelope calculations and my computer monitor restricts my FOV to 14 degrees. The whole realism argument falls over when you compare a 14 degree FOV into the gameworld with a ~180 degree FOV in real life. Even if the gameworld 'fakes' a wider FOV inside that 14 degrees, I still need all the help I can get. By the way, I could never use the cockpit view in NRwhatever because it was too restrictive, until I got my 3D glasses. Now I actually prefer the realism and immersion you get from being able to focus through the cockpit out to the important stuff! My recommendation is get some 3d glasses (e-dimensional), they really are fantastic! "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_wdTa.2897$[email hidden]... > John you keep saying over and over there is "no shame" in roof riding. I > disagree completely. It gives one driver (arcade_boys) a much larger FOV > than the (simmers) non-roofriders get which just makes the situationworse. > If both drivers see/dont see the same things (Like real-life) perhaps both > would be more careful while overtaking. I for one can really tell when Im > around a roof-rider for the simple fact that as I go into avoidance modethe > roof-rider just takes advantage and closes the gap (horizontal) even more > making me go further and further away from the intended line. Does > roof-riding or aid use make the sim any more realistic? I had thought we > all wanted realsim yet we have guys saying "There's no shame in > roof-riding". How about preaching OFFLINE PRACTICE before you startonline > racing for starters.... > > Using driving aids is even more of a sin but if guys cant control theirshit

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> then use em. Hopefully the patch fixes the tire wear cheats for guys with > Aids <g> > > Personally I want us to be using Hardcore mode as to create total fairness > but my small voice just isnt heard. > > Mitch (bitch mode off) > >

Mike Grandy drives in-car. I don't. I've raced him for years. If we were both to get back into sim racing full time we'd be very competitive and probably pretty darn close to equal. But if one of us turns on driving aids (post patch), it's all over; not even close. And that was not true prior to N2003. That's the difference. -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > So even though aids are 'more of a sin' they are ok but driving from the roof isn't?? I don't understand that at all, ...

"John Wallace" wrote:

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> > Joachim, this is sort of off the topic but what ever became of > >John Wallace? I was looking through some things the other day > >(house cleaning) and I found a message from him I had printed > >out. Sort of miss his contributions. > > > > Pete > > That makes me feel wierd - first time I've stopped by r.a.s. in ages, > and read the above!

Welcome back John! We have missed your sharp wit. In fact I haven't seen many really decent arguments (not simple abuse) on here for ages :) Cheers Tony --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 04/07/2003

Might I suggest LFS http://lfs.racesimcentral.com and netkar: http://www.drivingitalia.net/sezioni.php?sez=files Ken John Wallace wrote:

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> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:13:03 -0400, "Pete" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >> Joachim, this is sort of off the topic but what ever became of >>John Wallace? I was looking through some things the other day >>(house cleaning) and I found a message from him I had printed >>out. Sort of miss his contributions. >> >> Pete > > > That makes me feel wierd - first time I've stopped by r.a.s. in ages, > and read the above! > > Actually had been out of sims for ages, basically since my industry > went into a nosedive and work got too stressful. Recently clicked that > stopping doing the things which alleviate stress (sim-racing being > one) to have more time to devote to the things which cause stress is > "a bad thing". > > So, reinstalled GPL, bought F1-2002 and added GTR2002, bought F1C, and > basically searching around for what a once keen sim-racer should be > looking at these days. N2003 sounds good, but open to any suggestions. > > John > >

John Wallace wrote:

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> > That makes me feel wierd - first time I've stopped by r.a.s. in ages, > and read the above! > > Actually had been out of sims for ages, basically since my industry > went into a nosedive and work got too stressful. Recently clicked that > stopping doing the things which alleviate stress (sim-racing being > one) to have more time to devote to the things which cause stress is > "a bad thing". > > So, reinstalled GPL, bought F1-2002 and added GTR2002, bought F1C, and > basically searching around for what a once keen sim-racer should be > looking at these days. N2003 sounds good, but open to any suggestions.

Talk about blast from the past :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Tony Rickard wrote:

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> > "John Wallace" wrote: > > > > Joachim, this is sort of off the topic but what ever became of > > >John Wallace? I was looking through some things the other day > > >(house cleaning) and I found a message from him I had printed > > >out. Sort of miss his contributions. > > > > > > Pete > > > > That makes me feel wierd - first time I've stopped by r.a.s. in ages, > > and read the above! > > Welcome back John! > > We have missed your sharp wit. In fact I haven't seen many really decent > arguments (not simple abuse) on here for ages :)

Pffft, with Byron Forbes not pitching in, the abuse hasn't been much to write home about either Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > John Wallace wrote: > > > > That makes me feel wierd - first time I've stopped by r.a.s. in ages, > > and read the above! > > > > Actually had been out of sims for ages, basically since my industry > > went into a nosedive and work got too stressful. Recently clicked that > > stopping doing the things which alleviate stress (sim-racing being > > one) to have more time to devote to the things which cause stress is > > "a bad thing". > > > > So, reinstalled GPL, bought F1-2002 and added GTR2002, bought F1C, and > > basically searching around for what a once keen sim-racer should be > > looking at these days. N2003 sounds good, but open to any suggestions. > > Talk about blast from the past :-)

I remember arguing with him years ago. :-) David G Fisher

David G Fisher wrote: > > I remember arguing with him years ago. :-) I believe that goes without saying David :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet news:[email hidden]...

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> > I was getting beaten in GPL league races by people I knew were driving > in a way that exploited a loophole in the physics (braking and using > throttle at the same time) so I decided to not play with them > anymore...so there! :) > > I'm back kart racing now, while racing offline in the evenings. > > > Gerry >

Gerry I am just curious and am in no way saying that you are wrong or so, but why is it a loophole in the physics when you brake and use the throttle at the same time? Is it something with GPL that can�t handle that? I mean rallydrivers left brake and use throttle all the time, and i wouldn�t be surprised if they did in the gp-cars back then too? Peter

> I am just curious and am in no way saying that you are wrong or so, butwhy > is it a loophole in the physics when you brake and use the throttle at the > same time? Is it something with GPL that can�t handle that? I mean > rallydrivers left brake and use throttle all the time, and i wouldn�t be > surprised if they did in the gp-cars back then too? I heard during a pickup race someone was riding the brakes through the turns at new hampshire while controlling the car with the gas pedal, and getting great laptimes. I would imagine you would ruin the brakes in real life.

"frederickson" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet news:piBTa.145797$[email hidden]... > > > I heard during a pickup race someone was riding the brakes through theturns > at new hampshire while controlling the car with the gas pedal, and getting > great laptimes. I would imagine you would ruin the brakes in real life. > >Aaahh Well that makes sense! I�m always balancing the car with blips on the throttle while breaking, but that is in to a turn not all the way through it. I was just curious of what he was talking about... Thanks Peter

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:49:24 GMT, "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Welcome back John! > >We have missed your sharp wit. In fact I haven't seen many really decent >arguments (not simple abuse) on here for ages :) Thanks Tony, it's kinda fun to "see" everyone again. I hope to provide as much as possible of the former, and avoid the latter, but since we're all older and wiser I'm sure we can behave....! Any sims you would recommend I look into? Or add-ons for ones I may know? Cheers! John

John, great to see you are still around. I have been accussed of being psychotic but I may have a future as a psychic. On monday I was thinking I had to give a friend a call because I hadn't spoke with her in awhile and I was concerned. My mother phoned me this morning to tell me she had died monday afternoon. Regretabley I didn't call. I think I may go and buy a lottery ticket. Its funny because I was looking through some old things from a few years ago and noticed a printout of a discussion you and I were having about Papyrus and Geoff Crammond. I still haven't got to Tighnabruaich but I will ones of these days. Pete "John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:13:03 -0400, "Pete" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > That makes me feel wierd - first time I've stopped by r.a.s. in ages, > and read the above! > > Actually had been out of sims for ages, basically since my industry > went into a nosedive and work got too stressful. Recently clicked that > stopping doing the things which alleviate stress (sim-racing being > one) to have more time to devote to the things which cause stress is > "a bad thing". > > So, reinstalled GPL, bought F1-2002 and added GTR2002, bought F1C, and > basically searching around for what a once keen sim-racer should be > looking at these days. N2003 sounds good, but open to any suggestions. > > John > >

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:55:31 GMT, Ken MacKay <[email hidden]> wrote: >Might I suggest LFS http://lfs.racesimcentral.com >and netkar: http://www.drivingitalia.net/sezioni.php?sez=files Thanks Ken, I tried Netkar earlier today and, well, I was left pretty much ungripped. The sim itself looked quite well designed, graphics sound etc, but the driving felt uninvolving and the handling something to be driven around. I may have set things up wrong, so I'll probably give it a whirl again at the weekend. I haven't seen LFS, so I'll give it a go - thanks! John

I think it was 2 or 3 years ago I was talking with Julian Data and he was on ICQ with us. He was working on a couple of projects as I recall one of them was car related the other not. But I can't recall the specifics. I don't talk to Julian anymore but he may still be in touch with him. Pete "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bfmaul$fheu5$[email hidden]...

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> I have no idea. He married a long time ago, and since then I haven't heard > much from him anymore. AAMOF, I also lost contact with Marc Nelson, and I > really regret this. > > I don't know what they're doing right now. > > Achim

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:01:48 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >Talk about blast from the past :-) Hi! I'm certainly having a blast being passed - I hope I'm gonna get faster with practice since I'm way slower than I used to be!! I'm still about the same on a track, so hopefully it's lack of practice and not my reflexes dulling with age (or dulling with Cabernet Sauvignon atrophy....) Cheers! John

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:05:14 -0400, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I remember arguing with him years ago. :-) Hi David! I don't remember arguing with you - many debates, discussions and the odd troll wafted about from each side, but argument? Naaah. Now that "Honda sucks" guy, what was his name? HE argued! Cheers! John

John, pick up Nascar 2003 and then get David Noonans converter for the road courses and convert from GPL, Indy Car Racing and the Nascar tracks. Plus download some of the 3rd party tracks and you'll be in heaven. Pete "John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:13:03 -0400, "Pete" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > That makes me feel wierd - first time I've stopped by r.a.s. in ages, > and read the above! > > Actually had been out of sims for ages, basically since my industry > went into a nosedive and work got too stressful. Recently clicked that > stopping doing the things which alleviate stress (sim-racing being > one) to have more time to devote to the things which cause stress is > "a bad thing". > > So, reinstalled GPL, bought F1-2002 and added GTR2002, bought F1C, and > basically searching around for what a once keen sim-racer should be > looking at these days. N2003 sounds good, but open to any suggestions. > > John > >

"Pete" wrote: > John, pick up Nascar 2003 and then get David Noonans converter > for the road courses and convert from GPL, Indy Car Racing and the > Nascar tracks. Plus download some of the 3rd party tracks and you'll > be in heaven. A real blast from the past (February 1999) courtesy of Google Groups! "John Wallace wrote in message

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>You've gotta be kidding me?! The perfect vehicle for delivering a >driving sim is a 200mph school bus? I'd rather see a Formula Ford sim, >F1, CART or even (if you must have tin-tops) a Touring Car or >Sportscar sim. More varied cars, handling, tracks, styles. NASCAR sims >are good, but I'd place a whole lot of things in the queue ahead of >NASCAR as the perfect vehicle for a new engine. Some sports (like the >two mentioned above or rallying) don't have any sim at all yet. >

I agree with you 100% John (again - heck this is getting boring), the GPL engine is so good at handling direction changes, braking & acceleration effects that enhancements of this engine would not be fully utilised in a Nascar sim (except for pit stops & recovering from wrecks). Now I know we are going to upset a lot of our friends across the water who just love Nascar to bits, but like you I would put Nascar way down the list as a flagship for an auto sim engine. The prospect of N3 just doesn't excite me - I'd rather the resources were pumped into ICR3, or any number of open wheel or saloon car racing titles. What about on-line rallycross for testing friendships? Way off topic - but imagine a Papy sim using the GPL engine based on famous car chases! Cheers! Tony" Not much has changed John? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 04/07/2003

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> >At least not that I have been bitched at about, > >course two restarts on the inside was enough for me, the second one was > >waaaaayyyy hairy and I thought I caused the wreck up high in the first turn > >but on my replay it looks like that happened on it's own. Anyway, two > >restarts up there was enough, I was happy just to stay on the track in the > >back of the field. > > Thanks for reminding me about that. I understand your reluctance to start up > near the front on the restarts. I've been there myself. But, if anyone is > behind you, you staying near the back deprives him of the chance to possible > make up a lap(since he can't pass you without getting a BF). I couldn't keep > track easily of which cars were a lap down, and now many. So I don't know if > this actually affected anyone saturday. But if no one is behind you, sure - > start near the back if it makes you more comfortable. If someone IS behind > you, stay up front, but annouce that they should pass you on the right at the > start. When the flag drops, pull to the left and slow to let everyone pass > safely. Just a suggestion...

If you're laps down and you want to avoid the tension of a double- file restart, a more correct thing to do would be on the "1 more lap to green" announcment, pull into the pits and do a drive-through so that anyone behind you can do what they want/need to do. That way, you could just fall in behind the last car of the longest line, and you're all set.

In article <UMATa.1358$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> "John Wallace" wrote: > > > > Joachim, this is sort of off the topic but what ever became of > > >John Wallace? I was looking through some things the other day > > >(house cleaning) and I found a message from him I had printed > > >out. Sort of miss his contributions. > > > > > > Pete > > > > That makes me feel wierd - first time I've stopped by r.a.s. in ages, > > and read the above! > > Welcome back John! > > We have missed your sharp wit. In fact I haven't seen many really decent > arguments (not simple abuse) on here for ages :) >

I am truly wounded by that statement, Tony... :)

Well I made a prediction a week ago about what might appear in the upcoming mods being done for N2003. Well I recieved a few interesting emails and one of them assured me that not only is the GPL code in N2003 but it has been for awhile. I was also informed it would be brought to life. If you can't think physics perhaps you have blinders on. :-) Pete "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:V3DTa.1532$[email hidden]...

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> "Pete" wrote: >> A real blast from the past (February 1999) courtesy of Google Groups! > > "John Wallace wrote in message > > >You've gotta be kidding me?! The perfect vehicle for delivering a > >driving sim is a 200mph school bus? I'd rather see a Formula Ford sim, > >F1, CART or even (if you must have tin-tops) a Touring Car or > >Sportscar sim. More varied cars, handling, tracks, styles. NASCAR sims > >are good, but I'd place a whole lot of things in the queue ahead of > >NASCAR as the perfect vehicle for a new engine. Some sports (like the > >two mentioned above or rallying) don't have any sim at all yet. > > > > > I agree with you 100% John (again - heck this is getting boring), the GPL > engine is so good at handling direction changes, braking & acceleration > effects that enhancements of this engine would not be fully utilised in a > Nascar sim (except for pit stops & recovering from wrecks). > > Now I know we are going to upset a lot of our friends across the water who > just love Nascar to bits, but like you I would put Nascar way down the

list

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> as a flagship for an auto sim engine. > > The prospect of N3 just doesn't excite me - I'd rather the resources were > pumped into ICR3, or any number of open wheel or saloon car racing titles. > What about on-line rallycross for testing friendships? > > Way off topic - but imagine a Papy sim using the GPL engine based on

famous

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> car chases! > > Cheers! > > Tony" > > Not much has changed John? > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 04/07/2003 > >

"John Simmons" wrote: > If you're laps down and you want to avoid the tension of a double- > file restart, a more correct thing to do would be on the "1 more lap > to green" announcment, pull into the pits and do a drive-through so > that anyone behind you can do what they want/need to do. That way, > you could just fall in behind the last car of the longest line, and > you're all set. I feel one of my headaches coming on... It was never like this in Days of Thunder --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 04/07/2003

"John Simmons" wrote: > > Welcome back John! > > > > We have missed your sharp wit. In fact I haven't seen many reallydecent > > arguments (not simple abuse) on here for ages :) > > > > I am truly wounded by that statement, Tony... :) Sorry John, forgot about your many years chairing the debating society :) > 2) There will be no more restarts for people who miss the start. You > have five whole minutes to take a leak, get a drink, or spank your > monkey before the fuckin' race starts. Take the one lap penalty like > a man. Now anyone got any questions? :) Cheers! Tony --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 04/07/2003

I kinda feel the same way Eldred. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > I wonder how many yellow flags we would have if we had the hardcore > >option turned on? It would be an interesting trial say on a friday nighton > >someones server when we have absolutly nothing to do. Anyone want to hosta > >hardcore RASCAR race this week just for kicks? > > Sure, I'll host. I'm betting that after the first couple of wrecks, mostcars > will be too damaged to continue. The last 3 or 4 will drive until theyget > bored and quit...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info onmy > homepage) > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Thanks Goy. I'll search this site for signs of Marc. Achim "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ... > Marc Nelson was associated with www.3dtrains.com or something like that > for a while, don't know if he still is...

Sometimes strange things happen :-) - welcome back, John! And N2k3 together with Noonan's converted road circuits is a must have. In addition the upcoming patch to N2k3 will open the door for a TransAm mod with physics appropriate for that car class, and there's a group of people working on such a mod (Project Wildfire). One thing you might consider, we're flying IL2-FB online fairly often, with Roger Wilco for voice comms. This is good fun, too. Achim "John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ... > That makes me feel wierd - first time I've stopped by r.a.s. in ages, > and read the above!

You wouldn't nail the throttle, but sometimes you just feel that a little blip on the throttle will help. What you call heel and toe, does that imply that the clutch is depressed, or can that also be done while the clutch is engaged? Achim "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ...

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> Ok, Achim, I'm in my MX5 going around the old 67 version of Silverstone. > I'm heading at full blast towards T3, the revs peak in 5th gear as I > reach the braking zone. > > So how will braking while nailing the throttle at the same time make me > exit T3 faster than if I heel and toed? > > Also, same track same question, but I'm in a real Lotus 49?

...

I'll gladly withdraw the word 'better' - I simply meant 'easier to use and hence allowing for lower laptimes' :-) Achim "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ... > Can you define what you mean by 'better'?...

"John Wallace" said: > > That makes me feel wierd - first time I've stopped by r.a.s. in ages, > and read the above! <snip!> I'll be damned.... Look what the cat dragged in... Welcome back John! -- ed_ http://rascar.racesimcentral.com ----------------------------------------------- $10 says Petter Solberg wins the 2003 WRC

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:58:53 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Im not implying cheating at all Mr. Hilsman. If one guy can see to a >greater degree then I call it un-fair not cheating. Yes I realize I can >roof-ride to offset the unfairness but it just feel like an arcade game and >lacks immersion (keyword) for me. No no, I didn't mean to imply you were saying anything about cheating, sorry about that. You said you can tell the roof riders because they get so close to your car on the track, I was trying to say that just because they get close doesn't automatically mean they roof ride, just like getting passed doesn't automatically mean someone is cheating.

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>I don't usually look left/right either. I lose focus to easily hehe. > >I really enjoy the advanced head physics of F1C. Your head tracks where the >car is pointed. Others have done it in the past (MS Precision Racing comes >to mind) but F1C seems to be the first to get it right. It really helps the >immersion factor IMO. I would like similar options for Papy sims but that >aint gonna happen now <g>.

I was thinking of a system like that when I first replied to your message, I've never tried one and was wondering how well that would work. If done well it sounds like it would be a great thing. Your right though, too bad we won't be seeing that :/ >I come from the *old* world where driving AIDS actually made the car more >stable but at a speed/performance cost. I know get out of the past Mitch ><g>. lol.. That's what I always thought it did, too. I'm no expert at sim racing but I've played most of the Papy games since Indycar Racing 2, I don't think I've ever turned on any aids in anything. I used to play Test Drive with the keyboard, finally got a joystick to use with ICR. I didn't even really understand what changing the linearity did until recently - I never fooled with any of that and just used whatever the default was. Show me the gas, brake, and gears and I'll drive :) I finally got a wheel a few years ago when I started racing online, but I still never adjusted any of the advanced settings, make sure the wheel works then get in and drive lol! >This is a good point. I would say the items you mention making things >unfair would be closer to reality as well. As in RL the more you spend the >faster you are (most times anyway). Some teams budget are 2-3 times that of >some of the backmarkers. This is still actually pretty fair as if you >desire the high end then go purchase it <g> It's funny how sim racing and RL mirror each other at times. Lately the NASCAR races on TV really crack me up, I swear some of the restarts look just like a 1:00AM pickup race on Sierra :)

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hilsman <[email hidden]> writes: >Roof riders may have a wider FOV by default, but it's nothing compared >to look left/right from the cockpit. The advantage is clearly with >the cockpit drivers. Having trouble driving and pushing buttons to >look around? I do! Yep, I have problems hitting my shift lever to look left/right(wheel buttons are up/downshift. And, it cost me a league championship(GPL). I tried to make a pass for the lead, but couldn't balance the look right while I was scrambling for traction/steering inputs to make the turn... Had I been in F10 view, I'd have known that the pass was complete, and probably won the race... :-( Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Sorry, got that backwards bud :) -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Post patch? Am I understanding correctly, that even with the new > patch, a driver with aids turned on is faster than one without? I > thought the patch would address that? This is very disappointing > news! > >

Sorry, but in 1995 Max Moseley (sp?) actually stated publicly - after a comment made by Jaques Villeneuve - that F1 drivers WEREN'T MEANT TO BE HAVING "FUN". In addition to that fact, coaches and officials associated with most of the Olympic sports - particularly those in which the Europeans have traditionally excelled (such as gymnastics) - have long held to the credo that the kids are not there to have "fun". Sorry, my friend, but the day that professionalism entered what were traditionally amateur sports, "fun" disappeared out the door at a zillion miles an hour. Bruce. "Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > OF COURSE it's only a game. So is football. So is "real" motorsport. > It's for fun.

That was because of my liking for history and yes, I KNOW that F1 cars haven't raced at IoM but in my view they are closer to bikes than are NASCAR machines. :) Bruce. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bflrmo$gagrc$[email hidden]... > And this from the man for whom it was so important that GPL's Isle of Man > track would not be converted to sims simulating 'IoM-unworthy' cars? ;-) >

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, John Hilsman > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Roof riders may have a wider FOV by default, but it's nothing compared > >to look left/right from the cockpit. The advantage is clearly with > >the cockpit drivers. Having trouble driving and pushing buttons to > >look around? I do! > > Yep, I have problems hitting my shift lever to look left/right(wheel

buttons > are up/downshift. And, it cost me a league championship(GPL). I tried tomake > a pass for the lead, but couldn't balance the look right while I wasscrambling > for traction/steering inputs to make the turn... Had I been in F10 view,I'd > have known that the pass was complete, and probably won the race... :-( > > Eldred > -- > Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info onmy > homepage) > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. >

Joachim Trensz wrote: > You wouldn't nail the throttle, but sometimes you just feel that a little > blip on the throttle will help. When in neutral you mean? > > What you call heel and toe, does that imply that the clutch is depressed, or > can that also be done while the clutch is engaged? Heel and toe is when the right foot operates the brake and at the same time rolls onto the throttle to blip while going through neutral during the down change sequence. This stops the rears from braking away. GPL automatically adds a throttle blip. You don't need the clutch at all. Gerry

In article <HiDTa.6848$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Pete) wrote: > I was also informed it would be brought to life. <fingers in ears> You *can't* say stuff like that in public! It's just not fair to raise our expectations :-) Andrew McP

;-) I just _couldn't_ refrain from making that comment ;-) Achim "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3f1f3f67$[email hidden]... > That was because of my liking for history and yes, I KNOW that F1 cars > haven't raced at IoM but in my view they are closer to bikes than areNASCAR

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> machines. :) > > Bruce. > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bflrmo$gagrc$[email hidden]... > > And this from the man for whom it was so important that GPL's Isle of

Man > > track would not be converted to sims simulating 'IoM-unworthy' cars? ;-) > > > >

Hi Gerry, > When in neutral you mean? Nope, with the clutch engaged. You'd usually do it to stabilize the car, or to be on the throttle earlier, or to keep the drive strain under tension. Achim "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ... > Heel and toe is when the right foot operates the brake and at the same > time rolls onto the throttle to blip while going through neutral during > the down change sequence. This stops the rears from braking away. GPL > automatically adds a throttle blip. You don't need the clutch at all.

........and was standard driving practice - on AND off the racetrack - in the days before syncro gearboxes made an appearance. The ability to come down through the gears cleanly, without clashing the gears, whilst braking for a corner is an art and separates the men from the boys. Bruce. "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Heel and toe is when the right foot operates the brake and at the same > time rolls onto the throttle to blip while going through neutral during > the down change sequence.

Bruce Kennewell wrote:

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> > ........and was standard driving practice - on AND off the racetrack - in > the days before syncro gearboxes made an appearance. > > The ability to come down through the gears cleanly, without clashing the > gears, whilst braking for a corner is an art and separates the men from the > boys.

<raises hand> But I have a note from my mother that says I don't have to heel and toe if I don't want to.... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

You really downshifted without using the clutch all the time - 'cause that's what Gerry describes? ;-) Achim "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3f1f898f$[email hidden]... > ........and was standard driving practice - on AND off the racetrack - in > the days before syncro gearboxes made an appearance. > > The ability to come down through the gears cleanly, without clashing the > gears, whilst braking for a corner is an art and separates the men fromthe

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> boys. > > Bruce. > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Heel and toe is when the right foot operates the brake and at the same > > time rolls onto the throttle to blip while going through neutral during > > the down change sequence. > >

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:48:26 +0000 (UTC), John Wallace wrote: > So, reinstalled GPL, bought F1-2002 and added GTR2002, bought F1C, and > basically searching around for what a once keen sim-racer should be > looking at these days. N2003 sounds good, but open to any suggestions. > > John Good to have you back with us where you belong, John ;-) uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Nope. Rarely would one downshift without using the clutch.........well, certainly no-one with whom I was associated, anyway. I did it once in a mate's Ford Prefect. There was a big CLUNG-KK as the gears engaged but, by some miracle, I managed to avoid leaving gear teeth all over the road!:) Upshift, yes, though I didn't like to do it, particularly when in someone else's car. But I was taught to always use the clutch when downshifting. (We are talking "crash" or non-synco gearboxes here, of course). Bruce. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bfo3nr$gqmde$[email hidden]... > You really downshifted without using the clutch all the time - 'causethat's > what Gerry describes? ;-)

Bruce Kennewell wrote: > ........and was standard driving practice - on AND off the racetrack - in > the days before syncro gearboxes made an appearance. > > The ability to come down through the gears cleanly, without clashing the > gears, whilst braking for a corner is an art and separates the men from the > boys. Just what I've always said, Bruce. :)

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> > Bruce. > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>Heel and toe is when the right foot operates the brake and at the same >>time rolls onto the throttle to blip while going through neutral during >>the down change sequence. > > >

Joachim Trensz wrote: > You really downshifted without using the clutch all the time - 'cause that's > what Gerry describes? ;-) You don't need to de-clutch with a straight cut gearbox.

Joachim Trensz wrote:

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> Hi Gerry, > > >>When in neutral you mean? > > > Nope, with the clutch engaged. You'd usually do it to stabilize the car, or > to be on the throttle earlier, or to keep the drive strain under tension.

Ok, talk me though my imaginary approach to T3 at silver in my MX5 using this technique. Then tell me how this would work in a real Lotus 49. TIA Gerry

Joachim Trensz wrote: > You really downshifted without using the clutch all the time - 'cause that's > what Gerry describes? ;-) In the GPL era the F1 driver didn't have to use the clutch. This can even be done in a modern road car. You spin the the transmission with the gearbox in neutral, and when the speed of all the spinning metal parts match, that's when you pop it in the next lowest gear. Gerry

Gerry, you and I know each other well enough to know that, and why I am not going to follow you down this road ;-) Achim "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... .. > Ok, talk me though my imaginary approach to T3 at silver in my MX5 using > this technique. Then tell me how this would work in a real Lotus 49....

You say something, Fred? I didn't see it on this end.... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Joachim Trensz wrote: > Gerry, you and I know each other well enough to know that, and why I am not > going to follow you down this road ;-) No, go on, indulge me. :)

;-) Achim "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Joachim Trensz wrote: > > Gerry, you and I know each other well enough to know that, and why I amnot > > going to follow you down this road ;-) > > No, go on, indulge me. :) >

Gerry Aitken wrote: > > Joachim Trensz wrote: > > You really downshifted without using the clutch all the time - 'cause that's > > what Gerry describes? ;-) > > You don't need to de-clutch with a straight cut gearbox. Straight cut or not has little or nothing to do with it, it's the "synchro" bit that's critical, for my good old RWD Opel for instance, there are 2 gear sets for the regular 4 speed box, both straight cut, but one has "regular" (beefed up a bit I'm sure) synchromeshes that requires you to use the clutch, the other one uses something called "dog rings" and using the clutch is optional The one with the "dog rings" cost about twice as much as the other one of course so I had to settle for a 2nd hand one with regular synchromeshes Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

In article <[email hidden]>, John Simmons <[email hidden]> writes: >If you're laps down and you want to avoid the tension of a double- >file restart, a more correct thing to do would be on the "1 more lap >to green" announcment, pull into the pits and do a drive-through so >that anyone behind you can do what they want/need to do. That way, >you could just fall in behind the last car of the longest line, and >you're all set. Or you could do that...<g> I forgot all about that - it's what I used to do... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

.......and it is only the expert practitioner who can tell when all the spinning parts match perfectly! Interestingly enough, Jim Clark is credited with being able to make a transmission last twice as long as any other Lotus driver simply because he DID use the clutch! In addition, have a look at the in-car (in-footwell, actually) footage from the Monaco race in "Grand Prix". Bruce. "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In the GPL era the F1 driver didn't have to use the clutch. This can > even be done in a modern road car. You spin the the transmission with > the gearbox in neutral, and when the speed of all the spinning metal > parts match, that's when you pop it in the next lowest gear. > > Gerry >

Bruce Kennewell wrote:

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> .......and it is only the expert practitioner who can tell when all the > spinning parts match perfectly! > > Interestingly enough, Jim Clark is credited with being able to make a > transmission last twice as long as any other Lotus driver simply because he > DID use the clutch! > > In addition, have a look at the in-car (in-footwell, actually) footage from > the Monaco race in "Grand Prix".

Bruce I have this footage too. It's what prompted me to get a realistic set of pedals (redlines) and an actlabs shifter. But remember that using the clutch puts more strain on the clutch plate, under racing conditions this is an important consideration. Gerry

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3f1f3f0c$[email hidden]>...

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> Sorry, but in 1995 Max Moseley (sp?) actually stated publicly - after a > comment made by Jaques Villeneuve - that F1 drivers WEREN'T MEANT TO BE > HAVING "FUN". > > In addition to that fact, coaches and officials associated with most of the > Olympic sports - particularly those in which the Europeans have > traditionally excelled (such as gymnastics) - have long held to the credo > that the kids are not there to have "fun". > > Sorry, my friend, but the day that professionalism entered what were > traditionally amateur sports, "fun" disappeared out the door at a zillion > miles an hour.

I wrote a proper reply to this yesterday but it hasn't shown up :( Can't be bothered to get into the ins-and-outs all over again, but if I say club motorsport then you'll probably get the idea. People who spend a lot of time, money and effort on having "fun". No other reason to do it. You're not gonna make any money out of it. Like the old saying goes: "How do you make a small fortune in motorsport?" "Start out wth a large one..." Just trying to highlight that taking something seriously does not mean it is not fun. I take my sim-racing seriously - I get a great deal of satisfaction out of helping run a league and I have a hell of a lot of fun with it :) Regards, Mark

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3f1f3f0c$[email hidden]>... > Sorry, but in 1995 Max Moseley (sp?) actually stated publicly - after a > comment made by Jaques Villeneuve - that F1 drivers WEREN'T MEANT TO BE > HAVING "FUN". And isn't that just one of the things that makes F1 so good today ;) Well, a good soap opera, anyway...

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> In addition to that fact, coaches and officials associated with most of the > Olympic sports - particularly those in which the Europeans have > traditionally excelled (such as gymnastics) - have long held to the credo > that the kids are not there to have "fun". > > Sorry, my friend, but the day that professionalism entered what were > traditionally amateur sports, "fun" disappeared out the door at a zillion > miles an hour.

Indeed, but what about the thousands of enthusiasts who race in club motorsport? Privateers in national championships? I do a bit of work for an independant ASCAR team. Have no doubt that the team are doing what they are doing for the love of the sport. As the old saying goes: "How do you make a small fortune in Motorsport?" "Start with a large one..." They take it very seriously but the ultimate reward for that investment is the enjoyment and excitemnt of competing. Otherwise known as "fun". :) There's nothing else it can be. There is certainly no profit to be made. Fun is often expensive and in my experience, the more effort you put into it, the more you get out :) Regards, Mark http://www.v8thunder.com/

Oh well... Google's clocks messed up or somrthing? LOL Mark

"Nick" wrote... > I just did some back-of-the-envelope calculations and my > computer monitor restricts my FOV to 14 degrees. Bogus argument... it's not becaue the screen only takes up 14 degrees of your personal field of view, that the game restricts you to this as well. It actually takes advantage of human physionomy. See below. > The whole realism argument falls over when you compare a > 14 degree FOV into the gameworld with a ~180 degree FOV in > real life. Even if the gameworld 'fakes' a wider FOV > inside that 14 degrees, I still need all the help I can > get. No it doesn't. Physically, at any one time, you're only focusing on a maximum of 15% of that 180 degree FOV. That is what you actually "see" in detail. Everything else may appear in detail, but it really isn't in the "picture" that goes from your eyes to the brain. The surroundings are filled in from memory and assumption by the brain. That's why you suffer tunnel vision when the brain is overloaded in a stressfull situation. That's also why we fall for tricks with perspective in pictures and drawings. So it's very easy for the brain to narrow it's attention to what you see on the screen and perceive what it presents as real. That's what immersion is. While I will not argue that RL Winston Cup drivers can get a little more information by shifting their focus/moving their eyes than we get from the cockpit view in NR2003, in the context of the simulation the view is realistic. A lot more realistic than having one's viewpoint moved up by over a foot and ending up _outside_ of the car. Don't get me wrong, I don't really mind anyone using it (as long as they keep in mind my view is more restricted where lateral separation between cars is concerned), but I get bent out of shape when the term "realistic" is attachted to a point of view which is not accessible to anyone but the TV viewer just because it provides a wider angle FOV. > By the way, I could never use the cockpit view in NRwhatever > because it was too restrictive, until I got my 3D glasses. > Now I actually prefer the realism and immersion you get from > being able to focus through the cockpit out to the important > stuff! My recommendation is get some 3d glasses (e-dimensional), > they really are fantastic! I've tried it and I fail to see how it brings anything to the experience other than a frame/resolution hit. Then again, I'm pretty good at seeing 3D (I can see stereograms without lenses), so that might warp things. Jan. =---

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> "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > I wonder how many yellow flags we would have if we had the hardcore > > >option turned on? It would be an interesting trial say on a friday night > on someones server when we have absolutly nothing to do. Anyone want to host > a hardcore RASCAR race this week just for kicks? > >Sure, I'll host. I'm betting that after the first couple of wrecks, most > cars will be too damaged to continue. The last 3 or 4 will drive until they > get bored and quit...<g> > > > > Eldred > >

Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with where you ride. (cockpit/roof) It has to do with the piece of shit "Fast" setups we race with. I know it makes things equal across the board, but how about someone come up with a nice stable setup, in order to minimize the wrecks. I think being loose causes a lot of our wrecks. How many of our caustions were because of a single car spin, and the field gets caught up in it? I know I've brought out a few. Even if the setup pushed a little bit, we would do better. I suck, and I don't get too much time to practice, especially lately, but I'm condering running Pocono with the stability control, just to make it a little more fun than spinning out of control for no reason. Fredrickson helped me out a great deal last night with some pointers, but without a lot of practice time, I won't be able to last but a few laps wth the fast setup. IIRC, Bristol sucks bad, too. I don't like to use the driving aids, but sometimes it just isn't worth it without them. - end of rant

"Boyk7808" wrote...

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> > <snip> > > Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with > where you ride. (cockpit/roof) It has to do with the > piece of shit "Fast" setups we race with. I know it > makes things equal across the board, but how about > someone come up with a nice stable setup, in order > to minimize the wrecks.

<sigh>... it would be nice if once in a while people actually would recognise what racing is all about. Hint: it's not about setups. > I think being loose causes a lot of our wrecks. How > many of our caustions were because of a single car > spin, and the field gets caught up in it? Is there any excuse for losing it on your own, whithout any real pressure being applied? Not really, but considering the concept of the racing in RASCAR there's bound to be some people who don't know the setup/car inside out and who'll get caught out and lose it. Is there any excuse for running into an incident you're not directly on top of? -Not at all. > I know I've brought out a few. Even if the setup > pushed a little bit, we would do better. If the setup pushes, those who push themselves too hard for the amount of practice they've had will push up into other cars/the wall and cause accidents that way. Those who have practised sufficiently to actually push themselves and the car to the limit with any degree of consistency will be challenged by a loose setup to stay within the car, while a tight setup will only frustrate them. Reversely those who just drive the car to what they think they should be capable of, rather than what they are actually capable of on the day, using that particular setup, will cause trouble either way, so I'd err on the loose side. I.e. the fast setups are fine as a reference across the field. I just wish Papy had had the wisdom of making not only the steering ratio adjustable to fit one's rig, but also the brake bias. I suffered big time at Loudon because of that particular decision. > I suck, and I don't get too much time to practice, > especially lately, but I'm condering running Pocono > with the stability control, just to make it a little > more fun than spinning out of control for no reason. Please do. > Fredrickson helped me out a great deal last night > with some pointers, but without a lot of practice > time, I won't be able to last but a few laps wth the > fast setup. The goal is to last the entire race. Keeping on top of the car is paramount, speed and actually racing other drivers has to take a back seat to this. > IIRC, Bristol sucks bad, too. I don't like to use > the driving aids, but sometimes it just isn't worth > it without them. Bristol setup is just fine... I can't take it around as fast as most of the other guys, but there's nothing wrong with it. Jan. =---

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:38:25 -0400, "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> John, great to see you are still around. I have been >accussed of being psychotic but I may have a future >as a psychic. > On monday I was thinking I had to give a friend a call >because I hadn't spoke with her in awhile and I was concerned. > My mother phoned me this morning to tell me she had died >monday afternoon. Regretabley I didn't call. > I think I may go and buy a lottery ticket. > Its funny because I was looking through some old things from >a few years ago and noticed a printout of a discussion you and I were >having about Papyrus and Geoff Crammond. > I still haven't got to Tighnabruaich but I will ones of these days.

There's certainly no rush to geth there. Partly because things just don't rush in that neck of the woods, and partly because it will, thankfully, be basically unchanged irrespective of when you go. I've spent a lot of time in the Marunouchi area of Tokyo, and every time I go it's getting difficult no navigate because so much changes each time - same even around my home town. Amid all that it's nice to see places where, if I look at photos my parents took 30 years ago, it really doesn't much different, if at all! :-) You definitely should get a lottery ticket - with a week like that a win looks sure (I do claim half the prize if you buy a ticket on the strength of this advice. On second thoughts, just send me a new BMW M3 CSL and we'll call it quits...!) John

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zXjUa.33049$[email hidden]... > <sigh>... it would be nice if once in a while people actually would > recognise what racing is all about. Hint: it's not about setups. Actually, it is all about setups. One of the main reasons why Ferrari has been so dominant in F1 for the last few years is because their recent cars have been so accomodating to changes in the setup at each race. The blend between understeer and oversteer is long and flat, so the drivers know exactly what effect any given change is going to have, and can accurately measure the effect on balance it will have. Compare that to Williams, whose cars for the last few years have been stuck with touches of understeer for the most part, or Arrows, whose cars only needed just a slight alteration in setup to switch from wild understeer to mild oversteer. Of course, power, tyres and drivers all make a huge difference too, but a driver in a badly setup car will struggle the whole race, whereas the same driver in a perfectly setup car will be able to run fastest laps without thinking about it, which leaves him able to think about strategy/overtaking etc. Rubens at Silverstone? Why was he so dominant? Why was he overtaking everybody? He had no more power, grip or ability than usual, but he managed to find that perfect setup, which meant he could put his car in any situation on the track and know what it was going to do.

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LnjUa.33012$[email hidden]... > No it doesn't. Physically, at any one time, you're only focusing on a > maximum of 15% of that 180 degree FOV. That is what you actually "see" in > detail. Everything else may appear in detail, but it really isn't in the > "picture" that goes from your eyes to the brain. The surroundings arefilled > in from memory and assumption by the brain. That's why you suffer tunnel > vision when the brain is overloaded in a stressfull situation. That's also > why we fall for tricks with perspective in pictures and drawings. > > So it's very easy for the brain to narrow it's attention to what you seeon > the screen and perceive what it presents as real. That's what immersionis. > > While I will not argue that RL Winston Cup drivers can get a little more > information by shifting their focus/moving their eyes than we get from the > cockpit view in NR2003, in the context of the simulation the view is > realistic. A lot more realistic than having one's viewpoint moved up byover > a foot and ending up _outside_ of the car. > > Don't get me wrong, I don't really mind anyone using it (as long as they > keep in mind my view is more restricted where lateral separation between > cars is concerned), but I get bent out of shape when the term "realistic"is > attachted to a point of view which is not accessible to anyone but the TV > viewer just because it provides a wider angle FOV. All good points. I'm not trying to claim that the roof view is realistic. I'm trying to claim that it's just as unrealistic as the cockpit view <g>

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> > By the way, I could never use the cockpit view in NRwhatever > > because it was too restrictive, until I got my 3D glasses. > > Now I actually prefer the realism and immersion you get from > > being able to focus through the cockpit out to the important > > stuff! My recommendation is get some 3d glasses (e-dimensional), > > they really are fantastic! > > I've tried it and I fail to see how it brings anything to the experience > other than a frame/resolution hit. Then again, I'm pretty good at seeing

3D > (I can see stereograms without lenses), so that might warp things. It took a while to set them up for my eyes, but once I hit the sweet spot, I found that it made such a difference in being able to look down the track, I could focus much further into the screen and get much better depth percepion on things further away from the car, which is what you have to do in real life. On road courses it make a massive difference, on ovals not so much. I found also that I could run alongside a car and *know* how close we were from the cockpit view, instead of guessing to some extent based on previous experiences. They also work very well on two things where one is near and the other is far away, for example, the net in the window of cup cars and other things like seeing nazis hiding in bushes in Medal of Honor. Instead of these moments being an exercise in picking out the oddly coloured pixel or two, they allow you to focus through the near objects to see the far ones more clearly. YMMV.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:26:13 GMT, "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"John Wallace wrote in message > >>You've gotta be kidding me?! The perfect vehicle for delivering a >>driving sim is a 200mph school bus? I'd rather see a Formula Ford sim, >>F1, CART or even (if you must have tin-tops) a Touring Car or >>Sportscar sim. More varied cars, handling, tracks, styles. NASCAR sims >>are good, but I'd place a whole lot of things in the queue ahead of >>NASCAR as the perfect vehicle for a new engine. Some sports (like the >>two mentioned above or rallying) don't have any sim at all yet. >> > > >I agree with you 100% John (again - heck this is getting boring), the GPL >engine is so good at handling direction changes, braking & acceleration >effects that enhancements of this engine would not be fully utilised in a >Nascar sim (except for pit stops & recovering from wrecks).

Since re-loading a sim I have bought N-2003, F1-2002, plus of course a new CPU and graphics card! :-) Actually N-2003 is pretty damn good (although how do you get the spotters voice to stop echoing? It's really annoying), and I enjoyed the driving model. Maybe just me but I hate having to hold the car straight on the straights - it's realistic I know, but a real pain to have to do. There I was thinking for years that NASCARs only turn left, when it turns out that they only turn right! Hold it right on the straight, and go straight through the turns - wierd! Anyway, the ovals are a little unfulfilling for that reason, and as much as I like the road courses and the engine, it still feels like "not GPL" when I'm driving. After a couple of hours I fired up GPL and drove around Kyalami for a bit, and really no comparison. Just, WOW - and after adding GPLEA cars it looks damn awesome at 1280x1024. >Now I know we are going to upset a lot of our friends across the water who >just love Nascar to bits, but like you I would put Nascar way down the list >as a flagship for an auto sim engine. I can fully accept that there are those who would love it - and a good race in NASCAR is still better than a bad race in GPL, but certainly not my favourite, nor a flagship contendor! >The prospect of N3 just doesn't excite me - I'd rather the resources were >pumped into ICR3, or any number of open wheel or saloon car racing titles. >What about on-line rallycross for testing friendships? Funnily enough even ICR3 wouldn't be my first choice. After trying some of the "lower" formulae via GTR-2002, I think those would be awesome given the "full treatment". The trouble is the market maybe already occupied by GTR-2002 itself, since a commercial product would need to be significantly better. Does Sugo exist for GPL by any chance? I love that track in the M3 mod! Cheers! John

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:26:13 GMT, "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Way off topic - but imagine a Papy sim using the GPL engine based on famous >car chases! Actually I think that would be great. Far from realistic but GTA3-VC was a lot of fun on the bike! Really excellent nipping in and out of the traffic. Same with the recent Gran Turismo games. It's a fine blend between blandness and freedom though. I find GTA3-VC fun, but very "samey" very quickly. It's good to have the freedom to just drive around, but once you've jumped everything, nicked the odd tank etc, what's the point? Same with a chase sim - great for a short while, but would take a lot of development to last. Achim mentioned IL2-FB, which is a really good example. Damn awesome sim, but the online part makes it. Sitting in a bomber with several other guys, the fighter cover different each time, never knowing quite how it's going to go - if you could have a chase sim with other people online driving the police cars - that could be fun :-) Cheers! John

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:29:13 +0200, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Sometimes strange things happen :-) - welcome back, John! > >And N2k3 together with Noonan's converted road circuits is a must have. In >addition the upcoming patch to N2k3 will open the door for a TransAm mod >with physics appropriate for that car class, and there's a group of people >working on such a mod (Project Wildfire). > >One thing you might consider, we're flying IL2-FB online fairly often, with >Roger Wilco for voice comms. This is good fun, too. > >Achim

Hi Achim, it's nice to hear from you again. Do you still keep in touch with Alison, NAte, JohnO, Doug etc? How about Georg and the SPRTSIMS guys? I've been trying N-2003 (see separate message to Tony), but while it's good I've never been sooooo much of a NASCAR fan. Driving GPL is great (asp with today's PCs), but I must say I find it difficult to put the effort into GPL to be "fast" again. Sort of "been there, done that" feeling, and all I feel like doing is racing rather than lots of practice. GTR-2002 is interesting for me, mainly because it's new, and I like the cars etc. A TransAm mod might be excellent for that reason - Papy physics and quality, (relatively) light and responsive cars), and fun to race online. When and where do you fly Il2-FB? I tried that briefly and thought it was superb! I'm a pretty awful pilot, but I was a very good gunner (a legacy of waaaaay too much Quake in my younger days I think!). I liked the online collaboration (several guys in one place), and have some friends here who are really into it. Hope to join you some day. How are things with you? Still living overseas? Cheers! John

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:17:22 +0200, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'll be damned.... Look what the cat dragged in... > >Welcome back John! Thanks Ed - I was pleasantly surprised to see so many people still here, and that so many remembered discussions from so long ago. I'm trying to track down Marc as well. I have fond memories of working with him on so many projects, especially Sim Racing News. Most of the sites I see now make SRN look pretty old (well okay, it was!), but it was really good fun making that, and it certainly wouldn't have happened without Marc's push. Cheers! John

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:48:45 +0200, Uwe hoover Schuerkamp <[email hidden]> wrote: >Good to have you back with us where you belong, John ;-) Thanks Uwe. Why "hoover" by the way? There's a joke in there about sucking, but I'm not gonna go there...! Cheers John

"Nick" wrote...

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> > <snip> > Actually, it is all about setups. One of the main reasons > why Ferrari has been so dominant in F1 for the last few > years is because their recent cars have been so > accomodating to changes in the setup at each race. The > blend between understeer and oversteer is long and flat, > so the drivers know exactly what effect any given change > is going to have, and can accurately measure the effect > on balance it will have. Compare that to Williams, whose > cars for the last few years have been stuck with touches > of understeer for the most part, or Arrows, whose cars > only needed just a slight alteration in setup to switch > from wild understeer to mild oversteer.

Yes, the Ferrari, overall, is the best car in F1 at the moment. Like every other racing car since Dr. Porsche's Audis back in the 1930's, however, it has been designed and built to exploit the physics of rubber meeting asfalt to the best of the theoretical knowledge at the time. This means an assumption is made as to how the car is going to be driven at design time. This basic assumption is present throughout every racing design, from karts through Formula Ford, Formula 3 and F3000 to F1 (or any other motorsport ladder you care to mention). Every aspiring young driver had better learn how to drive these cars in a way as to extract the maximum of their performance and he'd better do it quick or his racing career will be very short lived. The real world is not like the sim world, the car arrives at the track with a theorethical optimum based on the circuit characteristics and experience, possibly with some give tuned in if the driver is unfamiliar with the track. Through practise and qualifying it's then tweaked to suit the driver's preferences, but he's basically got to drive it as is. There is simply no time to try 3 different wing configurations, 7 sets of springs and 5 sets of bars as is done in the sim world. The range of adjustment the simdriver enjoys is simply not available, even to F1 teams. That said, the default setups are a lot better. <g> > Of course, power, tyres and drivers all make a huge > difference too, but a driver in a badly setup car will > struggle the whole race, whereas the same driver in a > perfectly setup car will be able to run fastest laps > without thinking about it, which leaves him able to > think about strategy/overtaking etc. Yes, the times when a very good driver could carry an inferior car are long gone, true, but that does not make setup a determining factor. It simply means that amongst those of equal ability those who work the hardest and the smartest in getting the most out of their package come out on top in the long run. Ferrari don't have a secret download location where they get setups that give them an edge over the competition. They're just very good at interpreting the data from the car and the feedback from the driver and translating that into a settings change. Having a design which responds to change very predictably and having the means and manpower to develop the car in between races is a big bonus, off course. That's what it is about, knowing and doing what it takes to be the fastest, setup is an important factor in the driver being able to extract the most from the car, but it's just a requirement to be successfull. Jordan and Minardi are not struggling because they've got bad setups, they're doing badly on all fronts > Rubens at Silverstone? Why was he so dominant? Why > was he overtaking everybody? He had no more power, > grip or ability than usual, but he managed to find > that perfect setup, which meant he could put his car > in any situation on the track and know what it was > going to do. Yes, the Ferrari was very good at Silverstone, which is also one of Barichello's favourites and, indeed, he was able to pass several competitors. Notice those who he passed had a similar approach to the track and played the game fairly. Both Ralf and Kimi just did their thing and, when Barichello got a run on them, defended to the best of their ability. Neither made it his life mission to keep Barichello behind, though. Compare to Villeneuve/Button vs Michael Schumacher. The BARs were set up for top speed and, for their respective reasons, neither was prepared to lose a position. Michael lost a lot of time there in a car which was just as good as Barichello's. Another reason I think why Barichello was able to pull off those is that F1 drivers don't get a lot of practise at actually battling for position. The cars are not designed and set up to run in eachother's proximity / off-line either. E.g. Kimi fell for the ouside fake and then skated off the road on the marbles. A combination of inexperience and the state of F1, IMO. Regardless, the setup was nothing that dropped out of the sky and blessed Barichello, it was a result of effort Barichello and Ferrari put in to win the race. The same setup would not have allowed anyone but Barichello to have total confidence in that car. If you take this to the sim realm and RASCAR in particular, a lot of the real life variance is reduced. In fact, the situation is reversed: instead of the drivers being roughly equal (both in ability and style) and the cars/setups different, it's the cars and setups which are absolutely equal and the drivers show big differences. Here's the rub. If you aspire to have a good result in these races you're going to have to put in the practise to learn how to extract the most out of the given setup. Whether it conveines to your style or not just determines how far you'll get in a fixed number of practise laps. If you're uncomfortable you're going to have to come to terms with having to run below your *true speed* in order to have the spare attention to keep on top of the car and maybe gamble on fuel or tyres to gain an edge in the race. So you see, as far as racing is concerned it's all about the driver, the amount of effort he puts in and the strategy he employs. The setup is part of the challenge, but it's not the be all and end all. Jan. =---

John, I think Sugo doesn't exist, but here's a very comprehensive list of tracks for GPL: http://magnust.d2g.com/ Achim "John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ... > Does Sugo exist for GPL by any chance?

I've stopped racing GPL about 2 or 3 years ago as well. The GTR2002 mod is indeed a blast. But since its online capability is very limited when compared to N2k3's, it just didn't keep me hooked for very long. Doug was btw deeply involved with the GTR2002 mod, and I think he still is working on other mods together with that team. We 'talk' from time to time. Same goes for Alison and Steve, with whom I talk quite frequently. I've even visited him and Alison a few years ago. We had a great time LAN racing in Steve's house :-) and I am still deeply grateful for the hospitality and friendly reception I've received from them over there. Nate and Alison have been building a Cobra replica a few years ago, but I haven't talked to Nate in quite a while. JohnO - I don't know what he's doing. Georg has left the Legends community almost entirely and only posts from time to time. I think he'd given up racing as well for the most part, and is into one of this big online space opera games, I don't know what it's called, but it seems to be extremely immersive and fascinating to him. He's probably good at it, I think he would be :-) As for IL2, we fly this from our GPL league's private chatroom within WinVROC, usually around 9pm British time. For voice comms we use Roger Wilco. I can send you the data if you like (and your email is valid), if you don't have them anymore. Currently we're taking it a bit easy with everybody being on vacation, but we used to fly pretty frequently, almost every evening, for a while, with between 3 and 6 pilots. Usually we fly Coop, i.e. on the same side, and sometimes we man a bomber on all positions and fly that, which is also a blast in IL2-FB. None of us is very good, neither as a pilot (except for one guy, Neill) nor as a gunner, but that doesn't reduce the fun in the least :-) We'd be more than glad if you'd join us!! I live in Belgium now. Have lived in Spain for a few years before that. Quite a difference <g> but at least, Belgium is very much in the center of Europe, so I can get everywhere easily and quickly (London is a completely relaxed 3 hour trip using the Eurostar, it ends right in the middle of London at Waterloo station). And you? Where are you living, and how's life going, apart from the generally somewhat tighter business situation we all seem to be experiencing? Achim "John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ...

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> I've been trying N-2003 (see separate message to Tony), but while it's > good I've never been sooooo much of a NASCAR fan. Driving GPL is great > (asp with today's PCs), but I must say I find it difficult to put the > effort into GPL to be "fast" again. Sort of "been there, done that" > feeling, and all I feel like doing is racing rather than lots of > practice. > > GTR-2002 is interesting for me, mainly because it's new, and I like > the cars etc. A TransAm mod might be excellent for that reason - Papy > physics and quality, (relatively) light and responsive cars), and fun > to race online. > > When and where do you fly Il2-FB? I tried that briefly and thought it > was superb! I'm a pretty awful pilot, but I was a very good gunner (a > legacy of waaaaay too much Quake in my younger days I think!). I liked > the online collaboration (several guys in one place), and have some > friends here who are really into it. Hope to join you some day. > > How are things with you? Still living overseas? > > Cheers! > John

John, I think thats what intrigues me the most about going there. After having listened to my grand parents and dad for so many years and the fact everyone has gone back to visit but me makes me feel guilty. If I win the lottery I'll definitely get a BMW and try it out. I wouldn't feel right buying you one and then finding out you didn't like it. :-) Pete "John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:38:25 -0400, "Pete" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > There's certainly no rush to geth there. Partly because things just > don't rush in that neck of the woods, and partly because it will, > thankfully, be basically unchanged irrespective of when you go. > > I've spent a lot of time in the Marunouchi area of Tokyo, and every > time I go it's getting difficult no navigate because so much changes > each time - same even around my home town. Amid all that it's nice to > see places where, if I look at photos my parents took 30 years ago, it > really doesn't much different, if at all! :-) > > You definitely should get a lottery ticket - with a week like that a > win looks sure (I do claim half the prize if you buy a ticket on the > strength of this advice. On second thoughts, just send me a new BMW M3 > CSL and we'll call it quits...!) > > John

In article <_wdTa.2897$[email hidden]>, Mitch_A <[email hidden]> writes

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>John you keep saying over and over there is "no shame" in roof riding. I >disagree completely. It gives one driver (arcade_boys) a much larger FOV >than the (simmers) non-roofriders get which just makes the situation worse. >If both drivers see/dont see the same things (Like real-life) perhaps both >would be more careful while overtaking. I for one can really tell when Im >around a roof-rider for the simple fact that as I go into avoidance mode the >roof-rider just takes advantage and closes the gap (horizontal) even more >making me go further and further away from the intended line. Does >roof-riding or aid use make the sim any more realistic? I had thought we >all wanted realsim yet we have guys saying "There's no shame in >roof-riding". How about preaching OFFLINE PRACTICE before you start >online >racing for starters.... > >Using driving aids is even more of a sin but if guys cant control their shit >then use em. Hopefully the patch fixes the tire wear cheats for guys with >Aids <g> > >Personally I want us to be using Hardcore mode as to create total fairness >but my small voice just isnt heard. > >Mitch (bitch mode off) > >

How about, as part of the joining RASCAR process, everyone has to include some of their prefered, in-game settings (such as POV and driving aids) and then these details about each player get posted on the web site somewhere? It won't make any difference to who wins at the end of the day, but perhaps some may feel more satisfied about their drive compared to others, considering that their game settings would have made the driving more difficult to control, in their view (sorry for the pun). You could say 'How could you be sure people are going to tell the truth?'. Well, why would they want to lie? Unless, of course, deep down, they feel a little guilty about the whole idea of how they drive. I have just bought this game ( 10 quid in Game here in UK at the mo :) and have immediately set it to in-car with all aids turned off, except auto clutch, because that's how I like to drive. If someone beats me online using hood cam, or whatever, and all aids on, then that's fine with me as long as I know how they're driving. -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:50:19 +0100, "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> attachted to a point of view which is not accessible to anyone but the TV >> viewer just because it provides a wider angle FOV. > >All good points. I'm not trying to claim that the roof view is realistic. >I'm trying to claim that it's just as unrealistic as the cockpit view <g> I think you hit the nail right on the head Nick. Of course roof view isn't realistic in the sense that drivers don't actually sit there, but that's it. Cockpit view on a monitor is actually a handicap, why make it harder to drive the game than it really is in RL? What I really don't understand is why some people are so down on guys who drive from the roof, chase, or whatever. It doesn't make the car stick better or go faster, the only thing it might do is make racing safer but that's more a function of the driver than the view, so what's the big deal? Everyone bitches about wreckers, anything that doesn't give a performance boost and might actually make for fewer wrecks should be a good thing. It leads to better racing, and isn't that the point of it all? :)

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hilsman <[email hidden]> writes

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>On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:50:19 +0100, "Nick" <[email hidden]> >wrote: >>> attachted to a point of view which is not accessible to anyone but the TV >>> viewer just because it provides a wider angle FOV. >> >>All good points. I'm not trying to claim that the roof view is realistic. >>I'm trying to claim that it's just as unrealistic as the cockpit view <g> > > >I think you hit the nail right on the head Nick. Of course roof view >isn't realistic in the sense that drivers don't actually sit there, >but that's it. Cockpit view on a monitor is actually a handicap, why >make it harder to drive the game than it really is in RL? >

Err... because it's more realistic (but then you said that). I play these sims to feel like I'm driving a car, with a similar viewing experience. If I want to play a racing 'game' and view from the roof then I might as well get an Xbox or Playstation and just have a bit of fun, which I don't mind now and again, but for serious prolonged racing only one view is appropriate for me.

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>What I really don't understand is why some people are so down on guys >who drive from the roof, chase, or whatever. It doesn't make the car >stick better or go faster, the only thing it might do is make racing >safer but that's more a function of the driver than the view, so >what's the big deal? Everyone bitches about wreckers, anything that >doesn't give a performance boost and might actually make for fewer >wrecks should be a good thing. It leads to better racing, and isn't >that the point of it all? :) > >

Not for me. If I felt that the only way I could get round the track was to go to a different view from in-car then it would be time to give up. It may well be more difficult, but I don't feel comfortable driving any other way. If others are happy with that, then fine. I still remember my first experiences with GPL. I couldn't last a lap without spinning off and removed the game from my HD on at least 3 occasions because of this over a period of 6 months or so. I didn't give up though and eventually, after subscribing to ras, realised that what was making GPL a frustrationfest was that my framerate was too low (at about 24fps). After that, GPL has never left my drive since. Yes, I could probably have tried using one of the external views to have raced, but I just wouldn't have enjoyed it anywhere near as much and so it was better to just put the game away until another time. If it had turned out that I was just incapable of driving in car, then I would eventually have given up. -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:52:01 -0400, "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote: > John, I think thats what intrigues me the most about going there. >After having listened to my grand parents and dad for so many >years and the fact everyone has gone back to visit but me makes >me feel guilty. Well, hope you make it there sometime, if that's where your path is taking you. There's some truly awesome golfing down there (try Dunaverty and of course Machrihanish), seafood that make me want to drive there right now, and fantastic scenery. No shopping, few amenities, but friendly people. The one aspect that is changing are the communities themselves - the younger people want to leave (as few jobs or things to do), and more affluent people leaving the cities tend to by up the houses to retire or escape the rat-race. Not so much in that neck of the woods, since it's quite off the beaten track, but in those communities in general. Thanks for testing my M3 - let me know how she is! :-) I finally got my hands on an M-Coupe the other day, which really made me hanker after a shot of the new CSL version! John

John Wallace wrote: > > Well, hope you make it there sometime, if that's where your path is > taking you. There's some truly awesome golfing down there (try > Dunaverty and of course Machrihanish), seafood that make me want to > drive there right now, and fantastic scenery. No shopping, few > amenities, but friendly people. It *does* still have a pub I hope ? I mean, even Bron-y-Glyn in Carmarthen has a pub, it's placed a bit awkward being the very last house in a very long and narrow village, we were of course staying at the other end of the village, but other than that it was quite nice, closing time was when everybody went home as a friend of mine so eloquently put it Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 00:47:22 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >It *does* still have a pub I hope ? Ohhhhhh yes, it has a pub. (I can feel a sympathy hangover coming on....) >I mean, even Bron-y-Glyn in Carmarthen has a pub, it's placed a bit >awkward being the very last house in a very long and narrow village, we >were of course staying at the other end of the village, but other than >that it was quite nice, closing time was when everybody went home as a >friend of mine so eloquently put it Funny in those situations the walk TO the pub takes a while, but the beer taxi that gets you back home through the village seems really quick! Cheers! John

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:AovUa.33967$[email hidden]... > The real world is not like the sim world, the car arrives at > the track with a theorethical optimum based on the circuit characteristics > and experience, possibly with some give tuned in if the driver isunfamiliar > with the track. Through practise and qualifying it's then tweaked to suit > the driver's preferences, but he's basically got to drive it as is. Thereis > simply no time to try 3 different wing configurations, 7 sets of springsand > 5 sets of bars as is done in the sim world. The range of adjustment the > simdriver enjoys is simply not available, even to F1 teams. That said, the > default setups are a lot better. <g> Yes, but the top teams spend hours and hours at test tracks testing out every possible combination of settings, so that when they get to the circuit in question, not only do they have a pretty decent basic setup, they can also disregard 90% of the possible changes straight off. It's the most boring job in the world, but most races are won at test tracks in F1 (a fact never appreciated by the viewing public). > Having a design which responds to > change very predictably is a big bonus, off course. That's exactly it. Just having a great car is not enough, you need to be able to make that car work at Monza as well as Monaco. If the car does what you expect it to on the track (with any setup), and does what you want it to when you do make a setup change, it all suddenly becomes very easy. > Jordan and Minardi are not struggling > because they've got bad setups, they're doing badly on all fronts Indeed. A great setup would allow the drivers to extract the maximum from the car, but if the car is rubbish, there's not much a driver can do. > Regardless, the setup was nothing that dropped out of the sky and blessed > Barichello, it was a result of effort Barichello and Ferrari put in to win > the race. The same setup would not have allowed anyone but Barichello to > have total confidence in that car. That's kind of my point (although I could have made it a bit better). Rubens and Ferrari worked hard at Silverstone, and he managed to hit that sweet spot with the setup which meant he could outrace everybody else without worrying about pitching it into the barriers, chewing tyres or any of the other problems a bad setup creates. The reason Michael is Ferrari number 1 and 5-times world champion, is because he can extract more out of a 'bad' car than any other driver on the grid in F1. > If you're > uncomfortable you're going to have to come to terms with having to runbelow > your *true speed* in order to have the spare attention to keep on top ofthe > car and maybe gamble on fuel or tyres to gain an edge in the race. So you > see, as far as racing is concerned it's all about the driver, the amountof > effort he puts in and the strategy he employs. The setup is part of the > challenge, but it's not the be all and end all. The question still remains that if a driver is constantly worrying about what the car is upto underneath him, is running slower than he possibly could with a better balance on the car, and is also wearing the car out quicker than he would be with a better setup, will he be able to win a world championship? In sim racing, setup is nothing. We don't have the feel for the car required to fine tune the cars to that extent, so learning how to drive the car as-is is much more important than pretending that altering the camber by a quart will gain us a tenth per lap. As the speeds and forces increase, setup becomes more important. In club motorsport, setup is not too important. In the WRC, tyre choice and diff settings are paramount, but the exact suspension setup is not required. In F1, the only thing separating team-mates outright pace is setup and ability. Can anybody honestly say that Webber was better than Yoong, or Justin is better than Antonio at driving a F1 car, or are they just better at setting up a relatively bad car to their style? If I was coming around a corner like 130R that fast and I didn't know if it was going to oversteer or understeer, I'd sure as hell back off, but if the setup meant that I knew what it was going to do, I could take that confidence in there and maybe save 3 tenths at that corner alone.

"Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:RLMfKHAEVuI$[email hidden]... > Not for me. If I felt that the only way I could get round the track was > to go to a different view from in-car then it would be time to give up. Same here. I can drive from the cockpit view, but prefer the roof view in NR200x. I personally like a camera to be fixed to the car to help me judge what it is doing. When developers decide to try and emulate head movement in NR200x, I have trouble, and revert to a fixed camera. If the nearest fixed camera is on the roof, then I have to drive from there. The problem I have is you can't look left/right from the roof, so I actually think it's too restrictive up there <g>

Goy, I'm not sure where your going with this but Adam has more than taken up the slack even though he isn't on this NG. Thank God. :-) Pete "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Pffft, with Byron Forbes not pitching in, the abuse hasn't been much to > write home about either > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Pete wrote: > > Goy, I'm not sure where your going with this but Adam has more > than taken up the slack even though he isn't on this NG. Thank God. :-) Adam is a putz, he's annoying as hell, but he's a putz, and the endless threads he has going with the Mains, with childish attempts at abuse and posting incredibly lame pictures with stupid captions are more than I can bare (?), hence he's only the second person ever I have kill filed, Y2Krick being the first Byron on the other hand, now there was a guy who could insult/flame, someone in here once said; "this post calls for some industrial strength flaming, where's Byron Forbes" And I agree :-), hell, even DGF comes across as a reasonable guy after trying to "argue" with Adam :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Goy, maybe this is a bit arcane but I was looking for something the other day(doing a little historical research) and stumbled across this saying of Francis Bacon from his work the Novum Organum. "You most assuredly have that which is characteristic of most boys, they are prompt to prattle but cannot generate; for their wisdom abounds in words but is barren of works." I wonder if he knew Adam or met someone like him. :-) Pete "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Adam is a putz, he's annoying as hell, but he's a putz, and the endless > threads he has going with the Mains, with childish attempts at abuse and > posting incredibly lame pictures with stupid captions are more than I > can bare (?), hence he's only the second person ever I have kill filed, > Y2Krick being the first > > Byron on the other hand, now there was a guy who could insult/flame, > someone in here once said; "this post calls for some industrial strength > flaming, where's Byron Forbes" > > And I agree :-), hell, even DGF comes across as a reasonable guy after > trying to "argue" with Adam :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Pete wrote:

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> > Goy, maybe this is a bit arcane but I was looking for something > the other day(doing a little historical research) and stumbled across this > saying of Francis Bacon from his work the Novum Organum. > "You most assuredly have that which is characteristic of most boys, > they are prompt to prattle but cannot generate; for their wisdom abounds > in words but is barren of works." > I wonder if he knew Adam or met someone like him. :-)

ROTFLMAO And you're right, this discussion is probably more suited for e-mail :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qmAVa.3301$[email hidden]...

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> Goy, maybe this is a bit arcane but I was looking for something > the other day(doing a little historical research) and stumbled across this > saying of Francis Bacon from his work the Novum Organum. > "You most assuredly have that which is characteristic of most boys, > they are prompt to prattle but cannot generate; for their wisdom abounds > in words but is barren of works." > Pete

Well !!! If you are going to talk in code so that us poor redneck racing boys can't understand, well that's your decision to make, but down home we consider it it just plain rude. ;o) Elrikk

Elrikk, its better this way. Trust me. :-) Pete "elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fABVa.23931$[email hidden]... > > > Well !!! > > If you are going to talk in code so that us poor redneck racing boys can't > understand, well that's your decision to make, but down home we considerit > it just plain rude. ;o) > > Elrikk > >

Pete wrote: > > Elrikk, its better this way. Trust me. :-) Yeah....you really don't want a glimpse of what goes on inside Pete's head, that's a scary place Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Goy, now that you mention it. People I know wake up screaming from horrible nightmares and this is while I'm having a conversation with them. :-) Pete "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Yeah....you really don't want a glimpse of what goes on inside Pete's > head, that's a scary place > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Pete wrote: > > Goy, now that you mention it. People I know wake up screaming > from horrible nightmares and this is while I'm having a conversation > with them. :-) Boring *and* scary....wow Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Multidimensional. Demented Sandman. Pete "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Pete wrote: > > Boring *and* scary....wow > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

"elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fABVa.23931$[email hidden]... > > If you are going to talk in code so that us poor redneck racing boys can't > understand, well that's your decision to make, but down home we considerit > it just plain rude. ;o) > > Elrikk > > Elrikk, Read " All talk, no substance" Sean

On this day of our lord, Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:05:24 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> quilled:

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>Sorry, but in 1995 Max Moseley (sp?) actually stated publicly - after a >comment made by Jaques Villeneuve - that F1 drivers WEREN'T MEANT TO BE >HAVING "FUN". > >In addition to that fact, coaches and officials associated with most of the >Olympic sports - particularly those in which the Europeans have >traditionally excelled (such as gymnastics) - have long held to the credo >that the kids are not there to have "fun". > >Sorry, my friend, but the day that professionalism entered what were >traditionally amateur sports, "fun" disappeared out the door at a zillion >miles an hour. > >Bruce.

And that's as good a damnation of our society as any.

"McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > "elrikk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:fABVa.23931$[email hidden]... > > > > If you are going to talk in code so that us poor redneck racing boyscan't

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> > understand, well that's your decision to make, but down home we consider > it > > it just plain rude. ;o) > > > > Elrikk > > > > > > Elrikk, Read " All talk, no substance" > > Sean

That's OK. I once spent much to much time with Sartre's "Being and Nothingness". Got to the part where he was pondering the meaning of "transcendant transcendance transcending" and I decided it had something to do with getting off. . . . Way off . . ;o) Elrikk

"John Wallace" wrote: > Funnily enough even ICR3 wouldn't be my first choice. After trying > some of the "lower" formulae via GTR-2002, I think those would be > awesome given the "full treatment". The trouble is the market maybe > already occupied by GTR-2002 itself, since a commercial product would > need to be significantly better. I would agree now - the original comments I had copied from a Feb 99 post by both of us - to prove how little had changed! Personally whilst I think GTR-2002 is an incredible piece of work the ISI engine both in terms of graphics & feel just don't cut it for me. Maybe if I invested a few weeks tweaking controller settings it might - but I am not. The graphics engine looks great for static screenshots but on the move is just lacking something compared with GPL fully modded up. So there is a place for a new lower formula sim - at least here. Cheers Tony --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 04/07/2003