Dive bomb or not ?

I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive bombing'? As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the inside into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by Nascar drivers. Of course, the question occurred to me based on the recent RASCAR events, but I'm not trying to revive that discussion. I'm really interested in a definition of the term, I want to learn something about how to behave on ovals. Thanks for all comments in advance! Achim

Achim, It is like the gentlemen's agreement. It just depends on who is doing the passing and who is getting passed. Newsman "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]...

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> I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > bombing'? > > As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the inside > into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by > Nascar drivers. > > Of course, the question occurred to me based on the recent RASCAR events, > but I'm not trying to revive that discussion. I'm really interested in a > definition of the term, I want to learn something about how to behave on > ovals. > > Thanks for all comments in advance! > > Achim > >

If the car on the outside does not get off the turn well and gets passed going into the turn, he will claim "dive bombing", if he could not cut the passing car off in time. If he is aware of his surroundings and realizes there could be a nose under him and he gives the other car room, it's called a clean pass and just hard racing. This is all assuming that both cars stay off each other and are both in control. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]...

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> I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > bombing'? > > As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the inside > into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by > Nascar drivers. > > Of course, the question occurred to me based on the recent RASCAR events, > but I'm not trying to revive that discussion. I'm really interested in a > definition of the term, I want to learn something about how to behave on > ovals. > > Thanks for all comments in advance! > > Achim > >

A dive bomb is where a car comes from several car lengths back going into a corner after the driver ahead has started his turn into the corner. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]... > I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > bombing'? > > As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the inside > into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by > Nascar drivers. > > Of course, the question occurred to me based on the recent RASCAR events, > but I'm not trying to revive that discussion. I'm really interested in a > definition of the term, I want to learn something about how to behave on > ovals. > > Thanks for all comments in advance! > > Achim > >

In article <bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> writes: >I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive >bombing'? > >As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the inside >into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by >Nascar drivers. My interpretation would be a last-second move that would result in a crash if the driver on the outside doesn't take evasive action. Meaning, the outside driver is turning towards the apex, but realized the trailing car is making a bonzai attempt, so he turns out a bit to avoid contact. Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > >bombing'? > > > >As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the inside > >into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by > >Nascar drivers. > > My interpretation would be a last-second move that would result in a crash

if > the driver on the outside doesn't take evasive action. Meaning, theoutside > driver is turning towards the apex, but realized the trailing car ismaking a > bonzai attempt, so he turns out a bit to avoid contact. > Eldred's got it; this was what we used to call "stuffing" someone in motocross. You compromise your own line and exit speed by going in too deep and too tight for the purpose of taking track position, and the passee will have to alter his intended line to avoid contact. Effective (if risky) for getting a position, but it kills your laptimes. SB

That is something hard to explain without a diagram. But I have always felt someone is dive bombing when they enter a corner at an angle, that provided another car was not on the outside to lean against, would result in the car entering the corner too deep, and at the very least pushing up in the middle of the corner. Of course this would normally scrub off a huge amount speed and really wear the tires down, but since 8 tires stick better than 4, it normally works to their advantage.So that is my definition of "dive bombing". It is very situational for each track, but that basic rule applies. But if I am racing with the same group of guys you just have to learn who the dive bombers are, and just let them go, they are normally a bunch of hot lappers anyway and you will pass them after a short green run. btgoss "Kevin DeBello" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > If the car on the outside does not get off the turn well and gets passed > going into the turn, he will claim "dive bombing", if he could not cut the > passing car off in time. > > If he is aware of his surroundings and realizes there could be a noseunder > him and he gives the other car room, it's called a clean pass and justhard

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> racing. > > This is all assuming that both cars stay off each other and are both in > control. > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]... > > I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > > bombing'? > > > > As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the

inside > > into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by > > Nascar drivers. > > > > Of course, the question occurred to me based on the recent RASCARevents,

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> > but I'm not trying to revive that discussion. I'm really interested in a > > definition of the term, I want to learn something about how to behave on > > ovals. > > > > Thanks for all comments in advance! > > > > Achim > > > > > >

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.505 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 7/30/2003

"EldredP" writes: > My interpretation would be a last-second move that would result in a crashif > the driver on the outside doesn't take evasive action. Meaning, theoutside > driver is turning towards the apex, but realized the trailing car ismaking a > bonzai attempt, so he turns out a bit to avoid contact. That pretty much sums it up IMO. -- ed_

thanks a lot for the explanations, gentlemen! Achim

My definition was probably a little too harsh as that does not apply to all situations. I just have heard the "dive-bombing" excuse used in too many situations where the person being passed could have avoided a wreck by being aware of his surrounding not only in front of him, but what is happening behind him as well. Time and time again, I've seen the person about to be passed chop off the inside car going into the turn. That is just as bad or worse IMO, than taking the spot going into a turn. 9 out of 10 times the outside car gets the short end of the stick anyway. Letting the car go and racing to take the spot back later on just makes more sense to me. I'd rather race later on for a spot that I lost, than to wreck now trying to hold that spot. "btgoss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jguWa.21861$[email hidden]... > That is something hard to explain without a diagram. > But I have always felt someone is dive bombing when they enter a corner at > an angle, that provided another car was not on the outside to leanagainst, > would result in the car entering the corner too deep, and at the veryleast > pushing up in the middle of the corner. Of course this would normallyscrub > off a huge amount speed and really wear the tires down, but since 8 tires > stick better than 4, it normally works to their advantage.So that is my > definition of "dive bombing". It is very situational for each track, but > that basic rule applies. But if I am racing with the same group of guysyou > just have to learn who the dive bombers are, and just let them go, theyare > normally a bunch of hot lappers anyway and you will pass them after ashort

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> green run. > > btgoss > > > "Kevin DeBello" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > If the car on the outside does not get off the turn well and gets passed > > going into the turn, he will claim "dive bombing", if he could not cut

the

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> > passing car off in time. > > > > If he is aware of his surroundings and realizes there could be a nose > under > > him and he gives the other car room, it's called a clean pass and just > hard > > racing. > > > > This is all assuming that both cars stay off each other and are both in > > control. > > > > > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]... > > > I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > > > bombing'? > > > > > > As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the > inside > > > into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing'

by > > > Nascar drivers. > > > > > > Of course, the question occurred to me based on the recent RASCAR > events, > > > but I'm not trying to revive that discussion. I'm really interested ina > > > definition of the term, I want to learn something about how to behaveon

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> > > ovals. > > > > > > Thanks for all comments in advance! > > > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.505 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 7/30/2003 > >

The trailing car is making a very small tree? "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > >bombing'? > > > >As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the inside > >into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by > >Nascar drivers. > > My interpretation would be a last-second move that would result in a crash

if > the driver on the outside doesn't take evasive action. Meaning, theoutside > driver is turning towards the apex, but realized the trailing car ismaking a > bonzai attempt, so he turns out a bit to avoid contact. > > Eldred > -- > Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info onmy > homepage) > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestiss� news:bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]... > I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > bombing'? > I would say that the border between a clean pass and dive bombing is that if the car behind cannot get his nose under the car in front before the braking for the corner, the resulting situation is dive bombing, regardless if the car in front notices&gives room or not. If the passing car can get his nose under the car in front before the braking and then stays as low as possible (and doesn't get up from there after turn-in), I would blaim the outside car if there was a crash. -- Mika Takala

In article <bge1ru$mvbpq$[email hidden]>, Carl Ribbegaardh <[email hidden]> writes >The trailing car is making a very small tree? Hehe, those Japs. What they'll do to try and win a race. :)

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> >> >> My interpretation would be a last-second move that would result in a crash >if >> the driver on the outside doesn't take evasive action. Meaning, the >outside >> driver is turning towards the apex, but realized the trailing car is >making a >> bonzai attempt, so he turns out a bit to avoid contact.

^^^^^^^^^^^ If you missed it. :) -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:32:27 +0200, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive >bombing'? > >As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the inside >into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by >Nascar drivers. > >Of course, the question occurred to me based on the recent RASCAR events, >but I'm not trying to revive that discussion. I'm really interested in a >definition of the term, I want to learn something about how to behave on >ovals.

It become a dive bomb when the Southern American you're passing completely ignores his spotter saying "car low" and proceeds to come down into you and then screams at you for an hour after the race, calling you a wrecker and reporting your behavior to sierra/papyrus. Often this is accompanied by a flamewar on RAS as well. As far as I'm concerned, it's only a "dive bomb" if the car on the inside is unable to hold their line through the corner and washes up into the other car. Also the car attempting the pass should at least trigger the "car outside" spotter message before the cars have reached the turn-in point for the turn. Passing on an oval is all about getting on the throttle early out of a turn and getting your nose just inside the rear quarter panel on the following straight rather than constantly trying to outbrake someone (which usually results in chaos). Jason

Also called a "block pass" I believe, and used all the time in motocross. "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]>, "JoachimTrensz" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > > >bombing'? > > > > > >As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on theinside > > >into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by > > >Nascar drivers. > > > > My interpretation would be a last-second move that would result in acrash

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> if > > the driver on the outside doesn't take evasive action. Meaning, the > outside > > driver is turning towards the apex, but realized the trailing car is > making a > > bonzai attempt, so he turns out a bit to avoid contact. > > > > Eldred's got it; this was what we used to call "stuffing" someone in > motocross. You compromise your own line and exit speed by going in too

deep > and too tight for the purpose of taking track position, and the passeewill

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> have to alter his intended line to avoid contact. > > Effective (if risky) for getting a position, but it kills your laptimes. > > SB > >

I would say that that was outbraking someone. I would class dive bombing as when you attempt to get alongside after the car ahead has started to turn in, and turning in usually occurs some time after braking starts. "Mika Takala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QixWa.3949$[email hidden]...

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> > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestiss� > news:bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]... > > I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > > bombing'? > > > > I would say that the border between a clean pass and dive bombing is that

if > the car behind cannot get his nose under the car in front before thebraking

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> for the corner, the resulting situation is dive bombing, regardless if the > car in front notices&gives room or not. > > If the passing car can get his nose under the car in front before the > braking and then stays as low as possible (and doesn't get up from there > after turn-in), I would blaim the outside car if there was a crash. > > -- > Mika Takala > >

Yup; pretty much invented *back in the day* by Bob Hannah. Pretty controversial at the time, but it quickly became the norm. Always had front tire marks all down the sides of my bike after races from then on (often the backs of my legs, too). It's a cheap shot, since you don't have to actually be faster than the guy you're "passing", you just banzai it in there and shove him out of the way. Whoever recovers first comes out on top - until the next corner. Best approach for driving sims as passee, if you see it coming, is to wait until the last second, then go wide and brake a bit early on entry, get the turn squared-off and get back on the gas early and go underneath the bozo who just stuffed you on the exit, as he will have ruined his own line and momentum. He'll try it again, of course, and you may have no choice but the sacrificial brake-check. Good thing it all hurts a lot less online... ;-) "Andrew Hollom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NayWa.9002$[email hidden]...

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> Also called a "block pass" I believe, and used all the time in motocross. > > "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > In article <bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]>, "Joachim > Trensz" > > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > > >I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become

'dive > > > >bombing'? > > > > > > > >As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the > inside > > > >into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing'by

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> > > >Nascar drivers. > > > > > > My interpretation would be a last-second move that would result in a > crash > > if > > > the driver on the outside doesn't take evasive action. Meaning, the > > outside > > > driver is turning towards the apex, but realized the trailing car is > > making a > > > bonzai attempt, so he turns out a bit to avoid contact. > > > > > > > Eldred's got it; this was what we used to call "stuffing" someone in > > motocross. You compromise your own line and exit speed by going in too > deep > > and too tight for the purpose of taking track position, and the passee > will > > have to alter his intended line to avoid contact. > > > > Effective (if risky) for getting a position, but it kills your laptimes. > > > > SB > > > > > >

EldredP wrote:

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> In article <bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >>I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive >>bombing'? >> >>As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the inside >>into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by >>Nascar drivers. > > > My interpretation would be a last-second move that would result in a crash if > the driver on the outside doesn't take evasive action. Meaning, the outside > driver is turning towards the apex, but realized the trailing car is making a > bonzai attempt, so he turns out a bit to avoid contact. > > Eldred

That's my interpretation too. Gerry

"Andrew Hollom" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestiss� news:bdyWa.9032$[email hidden]... > I would say that that was outbraking someone. I would class dive bombingas > when you attempt to get alongside after the car ahead has started to turn > in, and turning in usually occurs some time after braking starts. > Yes, but my point is that when racing online, specially N2003 & ovals, trying to outbrake someone into T1 or T3 is quite rude. There are too many limitations in the visibility, lag and collision detection to do that safely. When braking *much*, as in a hairpin or a tight corner on road tracks.. outbraking is clearly the best option to overtake, and it can be done safely.. but on ovals its a different world. -- Mika Takala

In article <bge1ru$mvbpq$[email hidden]>, "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> writes: >The trailing car is making a very small tree? I said "bonzai", not "bonsai"...<g> Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

It's banzai, actually, I think ;-) perhaps related to Buckaroo Banzai? :-) Achim "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ... > I said "bonzai", not "bonsai"...<g>...

In article <[email hidden]>, jason moyer <[email hidden]> writes >On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:32:27 +0200, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> >wrote: ><snip> > Passing on an oval is all about >getting on the throttle early out of a turn and getting your nose just >inside the rear quarter panel on the following straight rather than >constantly trying to outbrake someone (which usually results in >chaos). > Spot on Jason. And I'm sure most people see it this way when racing the NASCAR sims, even if it is only subconsciously. As the passer: if you're not alongside on the straight then don't make the pass into the corner. Hold back and wait for a better opportunity. As the passee: if your spotter hasn't told you 'car low' by the time you are entering the turn then you can turn in as normal. If most drivers would stick to this simple mantra I'm sure there would be fewer collisions. Anyone who needs to late brake into a corner in order to pass the car in front just shows that they aren't good enough to overtake in the conventional and accepted manner. Patience is as much a part of oval racing as anything. Besides, where's the satisfaction in just lunging for the corner desparately compared to outdriving your opponent with a textbook move. It's been a while since I raced on line, but when offline racing from the back against the AI that are slower than myself I find there are 2 possible scenarios. Either I can get stuck in straight away and look for any small space to squeeze through by taking even the slightest opportunity that presents itself. I know how this ends up and its usually in tears. Generally, if I hold back until things settle down after a few laps and the cars get more spread out, I can then pick my overtaking moves with more care and can get to the front without too much difficulty. It doesn't take rocket science to work this stuff out. If that's what's happening online then it doesn't surprise me that there have been a hatfull of yellows lately. -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

Bull S*** "Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:j5gzGAA+m8K$[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, jason moyer > <[email hidden]> writes > >On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:32:27 +0200, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> > >wrote: > > > <snip> > > > Passing on an oval is all about > >getting on the throttle early out of a turn and getting your nose just > >inside the rear quarter panel on the following straight rather than > >constantly trying to outbrake someone (which usually results in > >chaos). > > > > Spot on Jason. And I'm sure most people see it this way when racing the > NASCAR sims, even if it is only subconsciously. > > As the passer: if you're not alongside on the straight then don't make > the pass into the corner. Hold back and wait for a better opportunity. > > As the passee: if your spotter hasn't told you 'car low' by the time you > are entering the turn then you can turn in as normal. > > If most drivers would stick to this simple mantra I'm sure there would > be fewer collisions. Anyone who needs to late brake into a corner in > order to pass the car in front just shows that they aren't good enough > to overtake in the conventional and accepted manner. Patience is as > much a part of oval racing as anything. Besides, where's the > satisfaction in just lunging for the corner desparately compared to > outdriving your opponent with a textbook move. > > It's been a while since I raced on line, but when offline racing from > the back against the AI that are slower than myself I find there are 2 > possible scenarios. Either I can get stuck in straight away and look > for any small space to squeeze through by taking even the slightest > opportunity that presents itself. I know how this ends up and its > usually in tears. Generally, if I hold back until things settle down > after a few laps and the cars get more spread out, I can then pick my > overtaking moves with more care and can get to the front without too > much difficulty. > > It doesn't take rocket science to work this stuff out. If that's what's > happening online then it doesn't surprise me that there have been a > hatfull of yellows lately. > -- > Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) > Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email > If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) > GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

In article <[email hidden]>, newsman <[email hidden]> writes >Bull S*** >Would you like to expand on that a little? Can't quite see where you disagree there. Or is that the best you can come up with?

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>"Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in >message >news:j5gzGAA+m8K$[email hidden]... >> In article <[email hidden]>, jason moyer >> <[email hidden]> writes >> >On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:32:27 +0200, "Joachim Trensz" ><[email hidden]> >> >wrote: >> > >> <snip> >> >> > Passing on an oval is all about >> >getting on the throttle early out of a turn and getting your nose just >> >inside the rear quarter panel on the following straight rather than >> >constantly trying to outbrake someone (which usually results in >> >chaos). >> > >> >> Spot on Jason. And I'm sure most people see it this way when racing the >> NASCAR sims, even if it is only subconsciously. >> >> As the passer: if you're not alongside on the straight then don't make >> the pass into the corner. Hold back and wait for a better opportunity. >> >> As the passee: if your spotter hasn't told you 'car low' by the time you >> are entering the turn then you can turn in as normal. >> >> If most drivers would stick to this simple mantra I'm sure there would >> be fewer collisions. Anyone who needs to late brake into a corner in >> order to pass the car in front just shows that they aren't good enough >> to overtake in the conventional and accepted manner. Patience is as >> much a part of oval racing as anything. Besides, where's the >> satisfaction in just lunging for the corner desparately compared to >> outdriving your opponent with a textbook move. >> >> It's been a while since I raced on line, but when offline racing from >> the back against the AI that are slower than myself I find there are 2 >> possible scenarios. Either I can get stuck in straight away and look >> for any small space to squeeze through by taking even the slightest >> opportunity that presents itself. I know how this ends up and its >> usually in tears. Generally, if I hold back until things settle down >> after a few laps and the cars get more spread out, I can then pick my >> overtaking moves with more care and can get to the front without too >> much difficulty. >> >> It doesn't take rocket science to work this stuff out. If that's what's >> happening online then it doesn't surprise me that there have been a >> hatfull of yellows lately. >> -- >> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) >> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email >> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) >> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77 > >

-- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

I don't think it can truly be defined, but I personally try to avoid going under a car if the ouside driver has already made the obvious intention to come down low to the line. If the outside driver starts to come down low AFTER the inside car has made his move, then IMHO any contact is the fault of the outside line driver. Sometimes, it's NO one's fault. There is, unfortunatley, a bit of lag in NR2003 (which I believe was actually introduced in NR2002) to when the spotter calls "Car Low". And, sometimes the outside line driver does it on purpose to try and intimidate the passing car into backing off. That, IMHO, is dirty pool and the cause of more than a few accidents out there. And, of course, sometimes you misjudge things and just plain screw up :) It happens to everyone. -Larry "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]...

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> I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > bombing'? > > As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the inside > into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by > Nascar drivers. > > Of course, the question occurred to me based on the recent RASCAR events, > but I'm not trying to revive that discussion. I'm really interested in a > definition of the term, I want to learn something about how to behave on > ovals. > > Thanks for all comments in advance! > > Achim > >

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pWQWa.1786$ug.812@lakeread01...

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> I don't think it can truly be defined, but I personally try to avoid going > under a car if the ouside driver has already made the obvious intention to > come down low to the line. > > If the outside driver starts to come down low AFTER the inside car has made > his move, then IMHO any contact is the fault of the outside line driver. >

I dunno, Larry. The old *accepted* rule of thumb was if the overtaking (inside) car didn't have a fender up to the door of the overtakee (outside) car, the inside car was expected to back off & try again, later. This seems to have changed since the advent of spotters & in car radio, tho it also seems to have changed about the same time as DE Sr showed up. ;o) > Sometimes, it's NO one's fault. There is, unfortunatley, a bit of lag in > NR2003 (which I believe was actually introduced in NR2002) to when the > spotter calls "Car Low". This is the very reason I try to follow the old rule of thumb ;o)

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> > And, sometimes the outside line driver does it on purpose to try and > intimidate the passing car into backing off. That, IMHO, is dirty pool and > the cause of more than a few accidents out there. > > And, of course, sometimes you misjudge things and just plain screw up :) It > happens to everyone.

Yep > > -Larry > -Brian > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bgd4vm$n2bnh$[email hidden]... > > I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive > > bombing'? > >

In article <j5gzGAA+m8K$[email hidden]>, Peter Ives <[email hidden]> writes: >Anyone who needs to late brake into a corner in >order to pass the car in front just shows that they aren't good enough >to overtake in the conventional and accepted manner. That's a bit harsh, innit? Eldred - who can't get out of the corners fast to save my LIFE... :-( -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "newsman" <[email hidden]> writes: >Bull S*** > Ok, what do you disagree with? Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

writes: Ok, what do you disagree with? Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 02 Aug 2003 22:25:16 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, "newsman" <[email hidden]> >writes: > >>Bull S*** >> > >Ok, what do you disagree with?

Shouldn't you be putting some laps in at Hockenheim instead of running your mouth on usenet? =) Jason <-- 280 laps since Friday and still slow

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (jason moyer) writes:

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>On 02 Aug 2003 22:25:16 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >>In article <[email hidden]>, "newsman" ><[email hidden]> >>writes: >> >>>Bull S*** >>> >> >>Ok, what do you disagree with? > >Shouldn't you be putting some laps in at Hockenheim instead of running >your mouth on usenet? =) > >Jason <-- 280 laps since Friday and still slow

Running my mouth? I'm not the one who said "bullshit"...<g> Besides, it wouldn't help anyway. I have the feeling that I could run a full GP every day for a month, and still not be competitive... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 15:25:02 +0100, Peter Ives <[email hidden]> wrote: >If most drivers would stick to this simple mantra I'm sure there would >be fewer collisions. Anyone who needs to late brake into a corner in >order to pass the car in front just shows that they aren't good enough >to overtake in the conventional and accepted manner. Sorry to say, but it is exactly the opposite of that approach which has avoided extinction for the human race. The worst reason to do anything is because it's "conventional and accepted". >Besides, where's the >satisfaction in just lunging for the corner desparately compared to >outdriving your opponent with a textbook move. The satisfaction comes from looking in the rear view mirror :-) Seriously, if the driver being passed knows there is a car on the inside and still turns in, he has just made his own decision to put his race at risk - he is not passive in this scenario.

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:17:18 +0000 (UTC), John Wallace <[email hidden]> wrote: >Sorry to say, but it is exactly the opposite of that approach which >has avoided extinction for the human race. The worst reason to do >anything is because it's "conventional and accepted". >That may be true in a lot of human endevours, but in online gaming when you don't want to appear an asshole and get banned from a server, then you have to tow the line to a certain degree. Andrew.

Thats doesnt happen in a dive bomb situation. There is no car inside when the car in front turns in. Thats why I hate dive bombers, theyd be thrown out of the league I race in. Dive bombing = wrecking. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Seriously, if the driver being passed knows there is a car on the > inside and still turns in, he has just made his own decision to put > his race at risk - he is not passive in this scenario. >

[email hidden] (jason moyer) wrote in news:[email hidden]: > Jason <-- 280 laps since Friday and still slow 1.19 or 1:18 in a Minardi is slow? Yah sure!

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 10:31:18 +0100, aep@nospam writeme.com wrote: >That may be true in a lot of human endevours, but in online gaming >when you don't want to appear an asshole and get banned from a server, >then you have to tow the line to a certain degree. Granted, but a driver being unable to hold a high line and avoid a crash is not entitled to accuse the passer of not towing [sic] the line.

In article <[email hidden]>, EldredP <[email hidden]> writes

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>In article <j5gzGAA+m8K$[email hidden]>, >Peter Ives ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>Anyone who needs to late brake into a corner in >>order to pass the car in front just shows that they aren't good enough >>to overtake in the conventional and accepted manner. > >That's a bit harsh, innit? > >Eldred - who can't get out of the corners fast to save my LIFE... :-(

So how do you go about overtaking other drivers? Alright, it was just a rhetorical question. ;-) Actually, there are other times when overtaking is ok, just not online when you've given up all reasonable hope of overtaking the driver in front unless you just throw caution out the window. It smacks of a kind of 'Win or be damned' mentality. There's no big trophy or cheque at the end of it, so why not just enjoy the race, whether you come 1st, 2nd or 10th and accept that today just wasn't your day. The other guy was good enough to hold you off. I've got a GPL replay of a race against another guy at Monza (it appears to be my only saved replay from online). He was running first and I was running second, I believe. I don't recall why I saved it as it's sometime ago now. We were racing close for 7 or 8 laps, but at no time did I actually get in a good enough position to overtake him and yet I must have thought it enjoyable enough running close behind him to want to save the replay to watch later. If I had passed him and breezed off into the distance would I have wanted to save that race replay? I doubt it very much. Racing close against someone of similar skills, 'without' banging wheels, is much more of a buzz than outdriving everyone and finishing half a lap ahead. I know that NASCAR is slightly different, in that you're likely to be in close racing all the time, whether you're out in front or back in the pack, but I hope you understand my point. -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

In article <[email hidden]>, John Wallace <[email hidden]> writes

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>On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 10:31:18 +0100, aep@nospam writeme.com wrote: > >>That may be true in a lot of human endevours, but in online gaming >>when you don't want to appear an asshole and get banned from a server, >>then you have to tow the line to a certain degree. > >Granted, but a driver being unable to hold a high line and avoid a >crash is not entitled to accuse the passer of not towing [sic] the >line.

I guess it depends on how often said passer tries such a move. If it is a one off then as the passee I would let it pass. (no pun intended) However what you don't need is someone who's driving style makes him/her seem like a bit of race bully? One where everytime that particular driver gets on your tail - when racing for position - that you're going to think, 'Better be cautious here and be ready to move off the racing line in the corners. He's behind me again.' Yes, the lead driver needs to be able to hold the high line, but still the original driving error is going to lie with the guy who's trying the late lung for the corner. He's the one who's creating the driving situation that could potentially cause a collision. -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

In article <$DsUIDAL6WL$[email hidden]>, Peter Ives <[email hidden]> writes: >>Eldred - who can't get out of the corners fast to save my LIFE... :-( > > >So how do you go about overtaking other drivers? Alright, it was just a >rhetorical question. ;-) Well, I simply have to wait for them to fall off the track...<g> >If I had passed him and breezed off into the distance would I have >wanted to save that race replay? I doubt it very much. Racing close >against someone of similar skills, 'without' banging wheels, is much >more of a buzz than outdriving everyone and finishing half a lap ahead. I'll have to take your word for it(outdriving everyone). I've never done that... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.