RASCAR:

Im not going out without a fight! For some reason this is being hashed out in semi-private. This is RAS for christs sake. Collectively WE all started this group, Eldred is so kind to offer a server for us to run on and create maintain the invite list. Simmons offered to take care of all the cars as he is a painter anyway. That was about the extent of the administration of RASCAR. Since then Simmons has re-read Mein-Kampf and usurped some sort of dictatorship out of what was once a democracy. He's now decided its his rules or the hiway. Now I can understand a couple rules to help improve the racing and cut down cautions. Thats sure not how the Furher errr Simmons see's it. We all know John's Obsessive compulsive tendancies (OCD) towards painting cars and chatting now there will be points deductions for both of those (so called offenses). Why we have to go so far overboard I don't know, but none of it is going to give us any better racing, but it sure will inflate the admins egos. He alos has problems with any rule that will prevent him from indiscriminately passing cars while taking the yellow flag (which imo has caused more problems in RAS than anything). I want a points system and some accountability for your on track actions not a bunch of nonsensical rules that won't do anything but cause a mass exodus from RASCAR. Weve already lost Tim, Ed, and Im sure a few others that havent said anything publically. Neil has stated he'll also depart along with myself if these rules go into effect. This has gone WAY too far.... "I'm mad as hell and Im not going to take it anymore" EVERYONE, "I'm mad as hell and Im not going to take it anymore". <G> All this being said I do like John and respect all the effort he's voluntarily accepted. He's just going way to far with this. John's proposed rules/points deducts can be viewed here http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar2003/. Remember I dont have issues with rules, just rules that are based on judgement calls instead of black and white issues. Mitch At least if Im going Im going out a whiner errr winner <g>

>All this being said I do like John and respect all the effort he's >voluntarily accepted. He's just going way to far with this. Curious - which rules do you disagree with, and why? >John's proposed rules/points deducts can be viewed here >http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar2003/. Remember I dont have issues with >rules, just rules that are based on judgement calls instead of black and >white issues. Aren't 'all' rules judgement calls when they're created? Someone thinks "this is the way we should do things", so they create rules... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kF9Ya.195$[email hidden]... > Im not going out without a fight! > > For some reason this is being hashed out in semi-private. This is RAS for > christs sake. Collectively WE all started this group, Eldred is so kindto > offer a server for us to run on and create maintain the invite list. > Simmons offered to take care of all the cars as he is a painter anyway. > That was about the extent of the administration of RASCAR. Since then > Simmons has re-read Mein-Kampf and usurped some sort of dictatorship outof > what was once a democracy. He's now decided its his rules or the hiway. > Now I can understand a couple rules to help improve the racing and cutdown > cautions. Thats sure not how the Furher errr Simmons see's it. We allknow > John's Obsessive compulsive tendancies (OCD) towards painting cars and > chatting now there will be points deductions for both of those (so called > offenses). >snip< I know it's nothing to do with me, but I just can't help myself...;) From the rules .."For god's sake, it's just a game. Try not to get all "head up" if someone wrecks you." This coming from Simmons is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. Great stuff.

Just for the record, I quit because of a decision made based on something I had done, and there was no precedence for that ruling since no one had ever been banned from a race for flaming in a ng, or making threats in a ng. I just couldn't deal with being used to prove someone else's point in that manner. Right or wrong, I pressed the limits of good will and it was my choice to make. I respect Eldred and John, and I feel very strongly more leagues should try harder to please the novice driver the way RASCAR does. -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com

In article <dQdYa.4373$[email hidden]>, jwhite15 @carolina.rr.com says...

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> Just for the record, I quit because of a decision made based on something I had > done, and there was no precedence for that ruling since no one had ever been > banned from a race for flaming in a ng, or making threats in a ng. I just > couldn't deal with being used to prove someone else's point in that manner. > > Right or wrong, I pressed the limits of good will and it was my choice to make. > I respect Eldred and John, and I feel very strongly more leagues should try > harder to please the novice driver the way RASCAR does. > >

I don't want either you or Dave to quit (or Mitch for that matter). You weren't banned, you were just suspended for one race. Your name (and Dave's) is still in the invite list just in case you decide you made a rash decision.

In article <kF9Ya.195$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> Im not going out without a fight! > > For some reason this is being hashed out in semi-private. This is RAS for > christs sake. Collectively WE all started this group, Eldred is so kind to > offer a server for us to run on and create maintain the invite list. > Simmons offered to take care of all the cars as he is a painter anyway. > That was about the extent of the administration of RASCAR.

And that's all that was needed until things got a little out of hand at Pocono. Remember, everyone wanted cleaner racing,and the only way to promte that and still leave the league open for rookies is to impose a more strict set of rules. > Since then > Simmons has re-read Mein-Kampf and usurped some sort of dictatorship out of > what was once a democracy. He's now decided its his rules or the hiway. That's not true at all Mitch. I had a set of rules handy that worked out quite well in previous leagues that I had run, soI used them as a basis for RASCAR. Nothing is cast in stone yet, and there's open discussion going on with people that care to. How is that "my way or the highway"? > Now I can understand a couple rules to help improve the racing and cut down > cautions. Thats sure not how the Furher errr Simmons see's it. We all know > John's Obsessive compulsive tendancies (OCD) towards painting cars and > chatting now there will be points deductions for both of those (so called > offenses). Can you think of a better way to identify problems? If someone continually breaks the rules, they either can't read, or don't care. If I wanted to race with either type of person, I'd be racing in 5% pickup races. You have to do something truly bad to get an outright bad, and the stuff I've proposed will help keep the noise level to a minimum here on r.a.s., something I'm sure all non-RASCAR members will appreciate. > Why we have to go so far overboard I don't know, but none of it > is going to give us any better racing, but it sure will inflate the admins > egos. Let's talk about judgement calls. > He alos has problems with any rule that will prevent him from > indiscriminately passing cars while taking the yellow flag (which imo has > caused more problems in RAS than anything). You and Ed must be really close friends. > I want a points system and some > accountability for your on track actions not a bunch of nonsensical rules > that won't do anything but cause a mass exodus from RASCAR. Well, if you call two (I don't count Tim as quitting because of the rules because he said he quit long before the proposed ruleset was posted the first time) people quitting because of the proposed rules changes a mass exodus, you must thing six inches is actually closer to 12... > We've already lost Tim, Ed, and Im sure a few others that havent said anything > publically. I think many of the members of the soon to be mass exodus are waiting to see what happens and if it actually improves the racing. > Neil has stated he'll also depart along with myself if these rules go into > effect. This has gone WAY too far.... I don't think he's actually definitively said he'd quit. At least, that's not how I took it. > All this being said I do like John and respect all the effort he's > voluntarily accepted. He's just going way to far with this. Judgement call...

I really didn't want to bring this onto the NG until things were sorted. My position is as John describes it. I feel really uncomfortable with the new regime and I'm not that confident it will do anything to help either racing or camaraderie. However, this may seem incredible but I've actually been wrong before ;) What I plan to do is to see what the final rules come out like and then see how they actually 'feel' for one or two races. If I'm as uncomfortable with the atmosphere as I suspect I will be, I'll then go quietly. Until then, I'll watch and see. What is clear after recent races is that something has to be done to up the 'fun factor'. Even if the decided solution doesn't suit me personally it may still achieve what the majority want. Don't suppose I could suggest turning off the yellow flags <g>. Regards "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... [snip] > > Neil has stated he'll also depart along with myself if these rules gointo > > effect. This has gone WAY too far.... > > I don't think he's actually definitively said he'd quit. At least, > that's not how I took it. >[snip]

Hey John if you keep running your server, could you add my other Sierra ID to the list? ZZBusch Thx Richard "ZZ" Busch

I just wanted to clearify that I decided to go before this rules mess even started. I just dont feel like "wasting" more saturdays behind a pacecar - nor do I want to tie 'em up infront of the computer-screen either. So like I've said before - I plan on setting up a BGN-division that will run on weeknights instead - thus allowing me - and others - too "free up" the weekends. Having said that... there's no way I would have continued if the currently proposed ruleset were to be it... I think John (I do say John 'cause those rules are mainly his work and suggestions) put way too much to effort into policing insignificant details rather than solving the real problem. Getting rid of chit-chat, "complaints" on RAS or getting people to drive the correct car - will not reduce the number of yellows! Anyway... good luck with whatever you all choose to do, I'm out - for now. -- ed_ ----------------------------------------------- $10 says Petter Solberg wins the 2003 WRC

In article <[email hidden]>, Ed Solheim <[email hidden]> writes <snip> >Getting rid of chit-chat, "complaints" on RAS or getting people to drive the >correct car - will not reduce the number of yellows! > What it's likely to do is get people complaining that they are being victimised when a call goes against them. Though, if complaining on RAS is one of the no-no's, then I'm not sure where they should do that complaining (Surely you made that one up Ed). The more rules you have, the more grey areas you're going to have to deal with. However, if things don't work out and people aren't happy, then things can always be changed again. Can't they? :) -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

In article <G4fYa.23894$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Hey John if you keep running your server, could you add my other Sierra ID > to the list? > > ZZBusch > Done. (I removed your old ID)

> Hey John if you keep running your server, could you add my other Sierra ID > to the list? > > ZZBusch >Done. (I removed your old ID) -------------------------------------------- Thanks John Regardless of what others may think, I understand what you're doing and don't mind. I just want to race. Now that I've rewired my TSW, I'm much better and more consistent. -- Richard "ZZ" Busch

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> I just wanted to clearify that I decided to go before this rules mess even > started. > I just dont feel like "wasting" more saturdays behind a pacecar - nor do I > want to tie 'em up infront of the computer-screen either. So like I've said > before - I plan on setting up a BGN-division that will run on weeknights > instead - thus allowing me - and others - too "free up" the weekends. > > Having said that... there's no way I would have continued if the currently > proposed ruleset were to be it... > I think John (I do say John 'cause those > rules are mainly his work and suggestions) put way too much to effort into > policing insignificant details rather than solving the real problem. > Getting rid of chit-chat, "complaints" on RAS or getting people to drive the > correct car - will not reduce the number of yellows!

Like I said many times before, the rulesa are based on what I used for a GPL points league several years ago. Our races were some of the cleanest you'd ever want to see. One of the rules was no chatting. That (and heavy points penalties for doing stupid shit) helped keep wrecks to a minimum. The rule about public complaints and squabbles is, IMHO, well justified. Having people drive the correct car is a) an exercise in awareness and b) to allow people to see paintjobs instead of generic cars. Loading the correct car also aids in resolving lineu-ups under caution because you can usually recognize a paint scheme LONG before you can see the number on the car. If I thought it was a small enough issue, I wouldn't include it in the proposed ruleset, and if I can be convinced that it doesn't belong there, I'll be more than willing to omit it. You are, of course, entitled to your view that it won't help or doesn't apply to better online racing, but the rules I've put up have a history of working as long as they're enforced fairly and even-handedly.

In article <bgruci$a20$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> I really didn't want to bring this onto the NG until things were sorted. > > My position is as John describes it. I feel really uncomfortable with the > new regime and I'm not that confident it will do anything to help either > racing or camaraderie. However, this may seem incredible but I've actually > been wrong before ;) What I plan to do is to see what the final rules come > out like and then see how they actually 'feel' for one or two races. If I'm > as uncomfortable with the atmosphere as I suspect I will be, I'll then go > quietly. > > Until then, I'll watch and see. What is clear after recent races is that > something has to be done to up the 'fun factor'. Even if the decided > solution doesn't suit me personally it may still achieve what the majority > want. Don't suppose I could suggest turning off the yellow flags <g>. >

I'm honestly not trying to piss people off, but I'm as tired as Ed is of the endless caution laps. When a 40% race at Pocono lasts 3 hours, it's time to take steps. I'm sure people are going to be penalized for spins and wrecks. I'm sure someone's gonna make the mistake of racing on the apron, or making an otherwise stupid passing move. The rules will be clearly posted, and everyone will have a chance to stay or leave. I hope everyone stays, but at the same time, I'd rather people that don't agree with the rules leave rather then stick around and cause probems. It might take a couple of races to convince everyone the rules are in force and enforced. This learning curve will be achieved by one-race suspensions if they earn enough penalty points in a given race. Me and Eldred are also subject to the same rules. I'm not known for being PC or being especially sensitive about anyone's feelings being hurt (and I'm not planning on changing my evil ways, either). I call it like I see it and everyone I single- out will have an opportunity to convince me that my assessment of their performance was wrong. Think of me as the embodiment of RASCAR's big red trailer.

In article <7tm1jBA9+YM$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > However, if things don't work out and people aren't happy, then things > can always be changed again. Can't they? :) Precisely.

I didnt mean the exodus would take place because the rules are in place but give it a few weeks/months after the rules go into effect when we have big point deducts per race that will cause nothing but even more controversy. Why even race in a points race? Let alone the time to watch EACH driver race the entire race. I think a few small steps would be more prudent than the proposed EXTREME rules. An example of why the winner of the previous week must start in the rear just wont work. I won last week, why should I even start at the rear, the likelihood of getting wrecked increases the farther back I am. I'd gladly trade 20 points for the possibility/probability of not even finishing the race thus losing an even greater number of points and not even being able to race to conclusion. This isnt GPL... Last week was a fine race. Any of the rules you mention wouldnt have made much if any difference except to take away some fun for a few guys. Hell, I dont chat while racing, thats not the point. The point is we dont need the FN chat police. What about when there isnt a clear evidense of blame, both must suffer point deducts? Again, just more controversy. Three rules would do everything your beuaracratic ruleset tries to accomplish. No flaming public/private. Self spin twice park it. No racing back to yellow. Mitch "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > I just wanted to clearify that I decided to go before this rules messeven > > started. > > I just dont feel like "wasting" more saturdays behind a pacecar - nor doI > > want to tie 'em up infront of the computer-screen either. So like I'vesaid > > before - I plan on setting up a BGN-division that will run on weeknights > > instead - thus allowing me - and others - too "free up" the weekends. > > > > Having said that... there's no way I would have continued if thecurrently > > proposed ruleset were to be it... > > > I think John (I do say John 'cause those > > rules are mainly his work and suggestions) put way too much to effortinto > > policing insignificant details rather than solving the real problem. > > Getting rid of chit-chat, "complaints" on RAS or getting people to drivethe

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> > correct car - will not reduce the number of yellows! > > Like I said many times before, the rulesa are based on what I used > for a GPL points league several years ago. Our races were some of the > cleanest you'd ever want to see. One of the rules was no chatting. > That (and heavy points penalties for doing stupid shit) helped keep > wrecks to a minimum. > > The rule about public complaints and squabbles is, IMHO, well > justified. > > Having people drive the correct car is a) an exercise in awareness > and b) to allow people to see paintjobs instead of generic cars. > Loading the correct car also aids in resolving lineu-ups under > caution because you can usually recognize a paint scheme LONG before > you can see the number on the car. > > If I thought it was a small enough issue, I wouldn't include it in > the proposed ruleset, and if I can be convinced that it doesn't > belong there, I'll be more than willing to omit it. You are, of > course, entitled to your view that it won't help or doesn't apply to > better online racing, but the rules I've put up have a history of > working as long as they're enforced fairly and even-handedly. >

You just made my point :) "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dQdYa.4373$[email hidden]... > Just for the record, I quit because of a decision made based on somethingI had > done, and there was no precedence for that ruling since no one had everbeen > banned from a race for flaming in a ng, or making threats in a ng. I just > couldn't deal with being used to prove someone else's point in thatmanner. > > Right or wrong, I pressed the limits of good will and it was my choice tomake. > I respect Eldred and John, and I feel very strongly more leagues shouldtry

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> harder to please the novice driver the way RASCAR does. > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com > >

"ZZ Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CcgYa.5945$[email hidden]... > > Hey John if you keep running your server, could you add my other SierraID

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> > to the list? > > > > ZZBusch > > > Done. (I removed your old ID) > -------------------------------------------- > Thanks John > > Regardless of what others may think, I understand what you're doing and > don't mind. I just want to race. > Now that I've rewired my TSW, I'm much better and more consistent. > > > -- > Richard "ZZ" Busch > > > > > > >

Me too, just wanna race. I finished the practice race. Average 1:17's 18's. Best lap was 1:16.4. Made one tire stop, and a splash of gas. John, I'm using the repaint you did. Thanks. Do I need to upload a new car file? bluestringer

In article <TBhYa.23983$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> > "ZZ Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:CcgYa.5945$[email hidden]... > > > Hey John if you keep running your server, could you add my other Sierra > ID > > > to the list? > > > > > > ZZBusch > > > > > Done. (I removed your old ID) > > -------------------------------------------- > > Thanks John > > > > Regardless of what others may think, I understand what you're doing and > > don't mind. I just want to race. > > Now that I've rewired my TSW, I'm much better and more consistent. > > > > > > -- > > Richard "ZZ" Busch > > > > Me too, just wanna race. > > I finished the practice race. Average 1:17's 18's. Best lap was 1:16.4. Made > one tire stop, and a splash of gas. > > John, I'm using the repaint you did. Thanks. Do I need to upload a new car > file? >

Nope. I already have it, and as soon as I finger it out, it'll be on the carset page.

Good God! Did John REALLY refer to it as "a game"?!!! The end of the world must be nigh! Bruce. "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgrcf7$rntko$[email hidden]... > > From the rules .."For god's sake, it's just a game. Try not to get all"head > up" if someone wrecks you." > > This coming from Simmons is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. Great stuff. > >

John, a rule prohibiting open and public discussion of one's opinions (even if it's a complaint) really goes too far. And it wouldn't improve the quality of the actual racing either. A mail to an admin isn't always the right thing. Sometimes it's better if those involved simply discuss their matters, and in public if they chose to do so. In this context, it's a good idea to penalise derisive or inflammatory language, and also the idea to request a 12 hour break between the race and the posting, as that might have exactly the effect on the racing I assume you're trying to achieve. Achim

I think you need some sort of penalty for being involved in accidents....always seems to be the same guys week after week =] (more like month after month :p)

In article <bgslna$s15bk$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> John, a rule prohibiting open and public discussion of one's opinions (even > if it's a complaint) really goes too far. And it wouldn't improve the > quality of the actual racing either. > > A mail to an admin isn't always the right thing. Sometimes it's better > if those involved simply discuss their matters, and in public if they chose > to do so. > > In this context, it's a good idea to penalise derisive or inflammatory > language, and also the idea to request a 12 hour break between the race and > the posting, as that might have exactly the effect on the racing I assume > you're trying to achieve.

The "discussions" have NEVER ended well. Pocono was the last straw. If a driver's actionis deemed worthy of a penalty, that's where it stops. If somene thinks I missed something in the race report, they need to contact me or Eldred by email, but only after they evaluate their replay objectively. It's not that hard to understand, and it really helps to maintain order in subsequent races.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > I think you need some sort of penalty for > being involved in accidents....always > seems to be the same guys week after > week =] (more like month after month :p) > Simply being involved is not a crime. Being the cause is worthy of a penalty.

Yeah, we're all perfect so it should never happen anyway. -Larry "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > I think you need some sort of penalty for > > being involved in accidents....always > > seems to be the same guys week after > > week =] (more like month after month :p) > > > > Simply being involved is not a crime. Being the cause is worthy of a > penalty.

Agreed. If RASCAR resorts to Censorship then _I_ will have to consider packing up my trailer and heading out. I've been quiet during this whole thing, mainly because I was not at Pocono, but I've never quite seen such an over-reaction to something in my life. I'm taking a wait-and-see stance, but I have to say I'm not liking what I see so far. We do NOT need Micro-Management around here. That's all I have to say for now :) -Larry "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgslna$s15bk$[email hidden]... > John, a rule prohibiting open and public discussion of one's opinions(even > if it's a complaint) really goes too far. And it wouldn't improve the > quality of the actual racing either. > > A mail to an admin isn't always the right thing. Sometimes it's better > if those involved simply discuss their matters, and in public if theychose > to do so. > > In this context, it's a good idea to penalise derisive or inflammatory > language, and also the idea to request a 12 hour break between the raceand

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> the posting, as that might have exactly the effect on the racing I assume > you're trying to achieve. > > Achim > > >

It's perfectly sensible to request that those who wish to discuss things do so politely and in decent style. But RASCAR is a usenet-based social event, and turning it into a power-orientated, hierarchically structured full blown league will take away a lot of its current appeal. It may improve the racing, but from recent discussions I'm not sure whether the majority of the RASCAR drivers wants to pay this price. I therefor think this fundamental choice should be made first, as if this is not cleared up, RASCAR might break under the strain. A system of positive motivations rather than severe punishments would probably cause less friction. I also think that if RASCAR isn't voted to turn into a full blown league by the drivers, you personally need to determine your position. Speaking tongue in cheek, your strategies often don't fully match with the situation that you haven't been officially empowered ;-) and for all I can see this keeps leading to conflicts. So maybe this question should also be cleared up once and for all. I know you're saying nobody else is doing the job so you're doing it, but I think it would be beneficial to the racing and overall situation of RASCAR if this question would be clearly answered. Achim

I've got to weigh in here as well. I appreciate all you do for RASCAR John, but these rules just seem to be too excessive. There are so many point deductions that we are gonna end up with people leading the points race with negative numbers, not too mention the fact that its gonna be an admin nightmare. Besides when was it decided we would keep track of points? Most of the people that race in RASCAR don't give a crap about points and probably won't even if they are tracked, so losing points won't be any kind of a penalty to them. If we are gonna run for points fine... I just think that there will be people that only race occasionally that just dont care about points. I know chatting is a huge issue with you and I am sure that we all universally agree that there should be no chatting during Qual, but, honestly I think the only one that cares about chatting under yellow is you. The funny thing is, I doubt that any of the rules will be an issue for me personally because I don't do any of the things you want to penalize people for and I think that goes for the majority who race in RASCAR as well. However, I think if you impose all of these you probably will see people quit simply due to the fact that it will be impossible to try and keep track of them all. I still think we just need some sort of demerit system that results in race suspensions and ultimately permanent suspension. That way we can promote clean driving and weed out those that week after week show an inability to control their car. Brian On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:03:28 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Im not going out without a fight! > >For some reason this is being hashed out in semi-private. This is RAS for >christs sake. Collectively WE all started this group, Eldred is so kind to >offer a server for us to run on and create maintain the invite list. >Simmons offered to take care of all the cars as he is a painter anyway. >That was about the extent of the administration of RASCAR. Since then >Simmons has re-read Mein-Kampf and usurped some sort of dictatorship out of >what was once a democracy. He's now decided its his rules or the hiway. >Now I can understand a couple rules to help improve the racing and cut down >cautions. Thats sure not how the Furher errr Simmons see's it. We all know >John's Obsessive compulsive tendancies (OCD) towards painting cars and >chatting now there will be points deductions for both of those (so called >offenses). Why we have to go so far overboard I don't know, but none of it >is going to give us any better racing, but it sure will inflate the admins >egos. He alos has problems with any rule that will prevent him from >indiscriminately passing cars while taking the yellow flag (which imo has >caused more problems in RAS than anything). I want a points system and some >accountability for your on track actions not a bunch of nonsensical rules >that won't do anything but cause a mass exodus from RASCAR. Weve already >lost Tim, Ed, and Im sure a few others that havent said anything publically. >Neil has stated he'll also depart along with myself if these rules go into >effect. This has gone WAY too far.... "I'm mad as hell and Im not going to >take it anymore" EVERYONE, "I'm mad as hell and Im not going to take it >anymore". <G> > >All this being said I do like John and respect all the effort he's >voluntarily accepted. He's just going way to far with this. > >John's proposed rules/points deducts can be viewed here >http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar2003/. Remember I dont have issues with >rules, just rules that are based on judgement calls instead of black and >white issues. > >Mitch > >At least if Im going Im going out a whiner errr winner <g> >

"John Simmons" said: > Like I said many times before, the rulesa are based on what I used > for a GPL points league several years ago. Our races were some of the > cleanest you'd ever want to see. One of the rules was no chatting. Like I too have said many times John - GPL racing is an *entirely different ballgame*: - How often are *you affected* if *another driver spins* out in GPL? - How often do you race "bumper to bumper" in GPL ? - How often [in GPL] are even withing 5 carlengths of the car infront? - What did 9 out of 10 drivers do when they saw a yellow flag in GPL? - How often did you even have the chance get your hands of the steering wheel to safely type a single word in GPL? - How often were you driving behind a pacecar? - How often did you have to slow down in order to get behind a pace car? - How often did cars that spun out/crashed end up "in the middle of the road" in GPL? 9 out of 10 times any car that spun off or crased would end up off track. - How many drivers attended each race? 10? 15? Surely not 25. - etc. etc. I never thought I had to ask this but, have you ever been in a [online] NASCAR league John? -- ed_

Allright....I get put in the wall at Indy..ummm I mean warped into the wall at Indy :), stay with my wife in the hospital a couple of nights and now there are rules? Are the rules official yet? Guess for now I'm in the wait and see crowd too. Dan

Are you pissed off with RASCAR? Why not join RASF1? Double your online enjoyment by turning both left *and* right! No dictatorships! No cream of the 70's technology! Just great fun in proper open-wheel racing cars! Join today, and get a free email welcoming you to the RASF1 paddock! All this, and totally free, too? Of course! RASF1 Race 2 Coming Soon* Sundays, 5pm UK (Noon Eastern) *F1C and F1RST2 required to race --- Now all I need is a corny voiceover, some F1 footage and a primetime TV slot...

Not completely FREE. IMO its time for an E.Pickett fund raiser. I think his problems are rooted in his 1gig athlon :) He needs a new mobo/cpu badly and WE all should make even a small contribution to get this for him. We all (VROC-RASCAR-RSAF1) OWE him for his years of making available servers for our racing enjoyment. Once this gets rolling Ill root post something. Mitch "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgudul$q6n95$[email hidden]...

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> Are you pissed off with RASCAR? > Why not join RASF1? > > Double your online enjoyment by turning both left *and* right! > > No dictatorships! > No cream of the 70's technology! > Just great fun in proper open-wheel racing cars! > > Join today, and get a free email welcoming you to the RASF1 paddock! > > All this, and totally free, too? Of course! > > RASF1 Race 2 Coming Soon* > Sundays, 5pm UK (Noon Eastern) > > *F1C and F1RST2 required to race > > --- > > Now all I need is a corny voiceover, some F1 footage and a primetime TV > slot... > >

In article <bgtma7$sujp0$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> It's perfectly sensible to request that those who wish to discuss things > do so politely and in decent style. > > But RASCAR is a usenet-based social event, and turning it into a > power-orientated, hierarchically structured full blown league will take away > a lot of its current appeal. It may improve the racing, but from recent > discussions I'm not sure whether the majority of the RASCAR drivers wants to > pay this price. > > I therefor think this fundamental choice should be made first, as if this is > not cleared up, RASCAR might break under the strain. A system of positive > motivations rather than severe punishments would probably cause less > friction. > > I also think that if RASCAR isn't voted to turn into a full blown league by > the drivers, you personally need to determine your position. Speaking tongue > in cheek, your strategies often don't fully match with the situation that > you haven't been officially empowered ;-) and for all I can see this keeps > leading to conflicts. So maybe this question should also be cleared up once > and for all. I know you're saying nobody else is doing the job so you're > doing it, but I think it would be beneficial to the racing and overall > situation of RASCAR if this question would be clearly answered. >

I think it's positive motvation. If you don't earn more than 20 penalty points in a race, you can race the next weekend. That's positive.

In article <[email hidden]>, bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.net says... > I know chatting is a huge issue with you and I am sure that we all > universally agree that there should be no chatting during Qual, but, > honestly I think the only one that cares about chatting under yellow > is you. I don't care as much about quals as I do the race session. > The funny thing is, I doubt that any of the rules will be an issue for > me personally because I don't do any of the things you want to > penalize people for and I think that goes for the majority who race in > RASCAR as well. However, I think if you impose all of these you > probably will see people quit simply due to the fact that it will be > impossible to try and keep track of them all. When you get right down to it, these are the things you can be given penalties for: 1) Spinning on your own or causing an incident within 2 laps of a start/restart. This has ALWAYS been a problem. I was actually going to make that within 5 laps of a restart, and I still might change it. 2) Stupid passing moves (racing on the apron, or a pass that is ill-advised that causes a caution). 3) Excessive chatting. Those three things are what causes our cautions and incidental contact". That doesn't appear to be all that fuckin tough to remember. DSon't spin, don't do stupid shit that causes an incident, and don't chat. The rest (logging on with the right car file and not serving the previous winner DQ) are just plain self awareness. > I still think we just need some sort of demerit system that results in > race suspensions and ultimately permanent suspension. That way we can > promote clean driving and weed out those that week after week show an > inability to control their car. If the reasons for the demerits are not precisely defined, some whiney little bitch is gonna start crying and moaning because "it's not stated in the rules".

On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:32:13 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> I still think we just need some sort of demerit system that results in >> race suspensions and ultimately permanent suspension. That way we can >> promote clean driving and weed out those that week after week show an >> inability to control their car. > >If the reasons for the demerits are not precisely defined, some >whiney little bitch is gonna start crying and moaning because "it's >not stated in the rules". >

I think I may have missed something in the point deduction system. I saw a post early up that said something to the effect of accumulating a certain amt of penalty points results in being suspended for the next race which would satisfiy what I feal is needed. I thought that the only penalty was losing championship points which some people will probably not care about. I would drop all the chat rules though. I would also drop all the rules about posting and griping, etc. You can simply state that unsportsman like conduct will be delt with accordingly by the admins. Also, although I like the idea of last weeks winner starting last, I don't like the idea of getting an intentional black flag. Just skip qual and start at or near the back. And if there is too much controversy over it I would just drop it all together. Brian Oster

"Peter Ives" said > What it's likely to do is get people complaining that they are being > victimised when a call goes against them. Though, if complaining on RAS > is one of the no-no's, then I'm not sure where they should do that > complaining (Surely you made that one up Ed). Sorry Peter - you've lost me... I made what up? -- ed_

"Peter Ives" said Sorry Peter - you've lost me... I made what up? -- ed_

In article <I%yYa.2607$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Not completely FREE. > >IMO its time for an E.Pickett fund raiser. I think his problems are rooted >in his 1gig athlon :) He needs a new mobo/cpu badly and WE all should make >even a small contribution to get this for him. We all (VROC-RASCAR-RSAF1) >OWE him for his years of making available servers for our racing enjoyment. > >Once this gets rolling Ill root post something.

Thanks, Mitch - but I have to decline your generous offer. Nobody owes me a damn thing. I don't do it to be paid. I do it because I enjoy helping. Since I don't have any talent for car painting, setups, or driver training, I'll settle for this. It doesn't cost me anything to host(unless I have to driver to the office to kick-start a server). People(Jan, John, Ped Xing) have provided the more recent games so that I could host. Many of you also chipped in for my new video card. That's good enough karma from the community. :-) Seriously, I considered putting a Paypal button on my webpage asking for donations. I definitely could use the few dollars people might give. But, I decided against it. Pride? Probably. I didn't(and don't) want to be a beggar. Thanks, though. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Bamadano) writes:

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>Allright....I get put in the wall at Indy..ummm I mean warped into the wall >at >Indy :), stay with my wife in the hospital a couple of nights and now there >are >rules? Are the rules official yet? Guess for now I'm in the wait and see >crowd >too.

And sometimes the really important things in life slap you in the face... Screw RASCAR, it's just a game. More importantly - how's your wife doing...? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster <bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.net> writes: >I know chatting is a huge issue with you and I am sure that we all >universally agree that there should be no chatting during Qual, but, >honestly I think the only one that cares about chatting under yellow >is you. Nope - I do too, even though I'm not as heavy-handed about it as John is. Since I'm usually in the back of the pack, I see firsthand what the 'accordian effect' does to the field when someone tries to type something during pace laps. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In message <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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> In article <I%yYa.2607$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Not completely FREE. > > > >IMO its time for an E.Pickett fund raiser. I think his problems are rooted > >in his 1gig athlon :) He needs a new mobo/cpu badly and WE all should

make > >even a small contribution to get this for him. We all (VROC-RASCAR-RSAF1) > >OWE him for his years of making available servers for our racing enjoyment. > > > >Once this gets rolling Ill root post something. > > Thanks, Mitch - but I have to decline your generous offer. Nobody owesme a > damn thing. I don't do it to be paid. I do it because I enjoy helping. Since > I don't have any talent for car painting, setups, or driver training, I'll > settle for this. It doesn't cost me anything to host(unless I have to driver > to the office to kick-start a server). People(Jan, John, Ped Xing) have > provided the more recent games so that I could host. Many of you also chipped > in for my new video card. That's good enough karma from the community.:-) > > Seriously, I considered putting a Paypal button on my webpage asking for > donations. I definitely could use the few dollars people might give. But,I

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> decided against it. Pride? Probably. I didn't(and don't) want to be a > beggar. Thanks, though. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

-- Posted with Ink Spot (for PocketPC) from DejaVu Software, Inc. Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/

Maybe we don't owe ya anything but it would sure make some of us feel better :) If you�re dead set against it so be it but don�t ya want a new rig, I bet it would improve your lap times to boot :) Maybe just let me post your paypal I.D. for any that would still like to make a contribution? We know your not begging in any way shape or form, this is purely voluntary. Just an idea before my last race hehe. Mitch In message <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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> In article <I%yYa.2607$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Not completely FREE. > > > >IMO its time for an E.Pickett fund raiser. I think his problems are rooted > >in his 1gig athlon :) He needs a new mobo/cpu badly and WE all should

make > >even a small contribution to get this for him. We all (VROC-RASCAR-RSAF1) > >OWE him for his years of making available servers for our racing enjoyment. > > > >Once this gets rolling Ill root post something. > > Thanks, Mitch - but I have to decline your generous offer. Nobody owesme a > damn thing. I don't do it to be paid. I do it because I enjoy helping. Since > I don't have any talent for car painting, setups, or driver training, I'll > settle for this. It doesn't cost me anything to host(unless I have to driver > to the office to kick-start a server). People(Jan, John, Ped Xing) have > provided the more recent games so that I could host. Many of you also chipped > in for my new video card. That's good enough karma from the community.:-) > > Seriously, I considered putting a Paypal button on my webpage asking for > donations. I definitely could use the few dollars people might give. But,I

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> decided against it. Pride? Probably. I didn't(and don't) want to be a > beggar. Thanks, though. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

-- Posted with Ink Spot (for PocketPC) from DejaVu Software, Inc. Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/

> > IMO its time for an E.Pickett fund raiser. I think his problems arerooted > in his 1gig athlon :) He needs a new mobo/cpu badly and WE all shouldmake > even a small contribution to get this for him. We all (VROC-RASCAR-RSAF1) > OWE him for his years of making available servers for our racingenjoyment. > > Once this gets rolling Ill root post something. > > Mitch > > Agreed, Eldred has been very generous. Even though I don't race every week I'd gladly pony up. Tim

yes, that's one way of looking at it <g> Achim "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ... > I think it's positive motvation. If you don't earn more than 20 > penalty points in a race, you can race the next weekend. That's > positive.

Huh? How on earth do you get positives from negatives, John?? Penalties are *negatives*. You might be giving some inducement for people to *not* get penalised but, speaking pedantically, you can't refer to that as a *positive* action. Bruce. "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > I think it's positive motvation. If you don't earn more than 20 > penalty points in a race, you can race the next weekend. That's > positive. >

Spinning without external influences brought to bear earns a penalty - even if no-one else is affected?!!! You've got to be kidding, surely? Bruce. "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > 1) Spinning on your own or causing an incident within 2 laps of a > start/restart. This has ALWAYS been a problem. I was actually > going to make that within 5 laps of a restart, and I still > might change it.

In article <3f335478$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Spinning without external influences brought to bear earns a penalty - even > if no-one else is affected?!!! > You've got to be kidding, surely? > Check out the "I might be wrong" thread.

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:31:13 +0200, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"John Simmons" said: > >> Like I said many times before, the rulesa are based on what I used >> for a GPL points league several years ago. Our races were some of the >> cleanest you'd ever want to see. One of the rules was no chatting. > >Like I too have said many times John - GPL racing is an *entirely different >ballgame*: > >- How often are *you affected* if *another driver spins* out in GPL? > >- How often do you race "bumper to bumper" in GPL ? > >- How often [in GPL] are even withing 5 carlengths of the car infront? > >- What did 9 out of 10 drivers do when they saw a yellow flag in GPL? > >- How often did you even have the chance get your hands of the steering >wheel to safely type a single word in GPL? > >- How often were you driving behind a pacecar? > >- How often did you have to slow down in order to get behind a pace car? > >- How often did cars that spun out/crashed end up "in the middle of the >road" in GPL? >9 out of 10 times any car that spun off or crased would end up off track. > >- How many drivers attended each race? 10? 15? Surely not 25.

Hmmm, weird. Suddenly I got a flashback of a typical VROC Monza pickup race..... why did that happen....<g> Remco

A self spin rule should be in effect for the entire race, not just around cautions. Every decent league I've ever been in had a 2 self spins and your must leave rule. Self spins are one of the easiest ways to determine the amount of practice someone has put into a given setup/track. The more they self spin, the more they work the nerves of others trying to dodge or pass them, or watch them come flyin out of the pits with fresh tires. And self spin again. In my book, one complete waist of time for the rest of the field for that person to spend their time trying to learn a track. Being a novice is one thing, being selfish is entirely another. That's a solid sensible rule in my opinion. -- Tim White www.intracmotorsports.com "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3f335478$[email hidden]... > Spinning without external influences brought to bear earns a penalty - even > if no-one else is affected?!!! > You've got to be kidding, surely? >

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:43:00 GMT, "Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>A self spin rule should be in effect for the entire race, not just around >cautions. Every decent league I've ever been in had a 2 self spins and your >must leave rule. > >Self spins are one of the easiest ways to determine the amount of practice >someone has put into a given setup/track. The more they self spin, the more >they work the nerves of others trying to dodge or pass them, or watch them come >flyin out of the pits with fresh tires. And self spin again. In my book, one >complete waist of time for the rest of the field for that person to spend their >time trying to learn a track. > >Being a novice is one thing, being selfish is entirely another. > >That's a solid sensible rule in my opinion.

Agreed.

On 08 Aug 2003 04:04:02 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Oster ><bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.net> writes: > >>I know chatting is a huge issue with you and I am sure that we all >>universally agree that there should be no chatting during Qual, but, >>honestly I think the only one that cares about chatting under yellow >>is you. > >Nope - I do too, even though I'm not as heavy-handed about it as John is. >Since I'm usually in the back of the pack, I see firsthand what the 'accordian >effect' does to the field when someone tries to type something during pace >laps. > >Eldred

Hmmm. That may a valid point. If someone is typeing instead of closing up the gap that could screw up someone's pit strategy. I guess I was looking at it from the recent races where we go 1 lap, wreck, go another, wreck, etc. In these cases most of us are just riding around under caution and pit strategy/track position is pretty much thrown out the window. I guess if we had a race with only 1 or 2 cautions, it might be more of an issue, but then again I think the chatter only picks up from boredom of driving lap after lap of caution. Brian Oster

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:03:28 GMT, Mitch_A wrote: > Im not going out without a fight! Points? Did I hear points? I never noticed we were competing for points, did I miss something? cheers, uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

In article <3f32d16a$[email hidden]>, Ed Solheim <[email hidden]> writes

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>"Peter Ives" said > >> What it's likely to do is get people complaining that they are being >> victimised when a call goes against them. Though, if complaining on RAS >> is one of the no-no's, then I'm not sure where they should do that >> complaining (Surely you made that one up Ed). > >Sorry Peter - you've lost me... I made what up? >

That no-one's allowed to complain on RAS. That rule does seem a bit extreme. It sounds so much like a kind of public gagging that I hoped you had made it up. :) To me it smacks of creating a false image of what people think. If people aren't allowed to say what they feel, for fear of being penalised, then it becomes a form of control. Everything may seem fine on the surface, because no-one is allowed to speak up in public (Hey, sounds just like how governments work :), whereas behind the scenes there is a lot of ill feeling building up. -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

"Uwe hoover Schuerkamp" wrote... > > <snip> > Points? Did I hear points? I never noticed we > were competing for points, did I miss something? Viewing the amount of information avaiable nowadays, it's not so much a case of missing something, it's a case of missing most of it. Pertaining to this particular situation: there's discussion about possible changes to the format of the competition. Jan. =---

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:31:13 +0200, "Ed Solheim" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >"John Simmons" said: > > > >> Like I said many times before, the rulesa are based on what I used > >> for a GPL points league several years ago. Our races were some of the > >> cleanest you'd ever want to see. One of the rules was no chatting. > > > >Like I too have said many times John - GPL racing is an *entirely different > >ballgame*: > > > >- How often are *you affected* if *another driver spins* out in GPL?

In IGPS, quite often actually. > >- How often do you race "bumper to bumper" in GPL ? Hmmm, I recall several times with the race ended with at least 1st 2nd and 3rd were within sight of each other at the finish, and at Monaco, less than two seconds separated the first 3 cars. > >- How often [in GPL] are even withing 5 carlengths of the car infront? In IGPS, it happened a lot. > > > >- What did 9 out of 10 drivers do when they saw a yellow flag in GPL? In IGPS, they slowed down. > >- How often did you even have the chance get your hands of the steering > >wheel to safely type a single word in GPL? Never. > >- How often were you driving behind a pacecar? Never. > >- How often did you have to slow down in order to get behind a pace car? Never. > >- How often did cars that spun out/crashed end up "in the middle of the > >road" in GPL? A lot of times. > >9 out of 10 times any car that spun off or crased would end up off track. > > > >- How many drivers attended each race? 10? 15? Surely not 25. We had 15-20.

In article <ULUeKBA1R+M$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> In article <3f32d16a$[email hidden]>, Ed Solheim > <[email hidden]> writes > >"Peter Ives" said > > > >> What it's likely to do is get people complaining that they are being > >> victimised when a call goes against them. Though, if complaining on RAS > >> is one of the no-no's, then I'm not sure where they should do that > >> complaining (Surely you made that one up Ed). > > > >Sorry Peter - you've lost me... I made what up? > > > > That no-one's allowed to complain on RAS. That rule does seem a bit > extreme. It sounds so much like a kind of public gagging that I hoped > you had made it up. :) > > To me it smacks of creating a false image of what people think. If > people aren't allowed to say what they feel, for fear of being > penalised, then it becomes a form of control. Everything may seem fine > on the surface, because no-one is allowed to speak up in public (Hey, > sounds just like how governments work :), whereas behind the scenes > there is a lot of ill feeling building up.

Pocono is the reason for that. I'm all for some spirited discussion, but Pocono just tripped off line and things turned to complete shit.

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:41:12 GMT, Jan Verschueren wrote: > > Pertaining to this particular situation: there's discussion about possible > changes to the format of the competition. Sad sad sad... 8-( Uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

"Uwe hoover Schuerkamp" wrote... > > <snip> > Sad sad sad... 8-( Any change is bad, eh? -Getting old, Uwe... ;-)) Jan. =---

>And sometimes the really important things in life slap you in the face... >Screw RASCAR, it's just a game. More importantly - how's your wife doing...? > >Eldred Thank you very much Eldred. She is much better today. Home now with a fused vertabrae in her neck but still kickin. I'll miss the Glen but like you said...it's just a game. Many thanks for your concern Eldred. Dan

In article <3f335478$[email hidden]>, "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> writes: >Spinning without external influences brought to bear earns a penalty - even >if no-one else is affected?!!! >You've got to be kidding, surely? I was in a league(Soar, I think) that had a "2 spinds, park it" rule. I don't *recall* anyone getting caught out by that, but I'm not sure. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <e0GYa.133$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Maybe we don't owe ya anything but it would sure make some of us feel better >:) If you’re dead set against it so be it but don’t ya want a new rig, I >bet it would improve your lap times to boot :) >Maybe just let me post your paypal I.D. for any that would still like to make >a contribution? We know your not begging in any way shape or form, this is >purely voluntary. > >Just an idea before my last race hehe.

:-) Ok, if I even get $5, I'd be happy. As I said, nobody owes me anything. My Paypal ID is my e-mail addy - minus the spamtrap, of course. Thanks in advance. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" wrote... > > <snip> > I was in a league(Soar, I think) that had a "2 spinds, park > it" rule. I don't *recall* anyone getting caught out by that, > but I'm not sure. Don't think anyone ended up parking it there either. But you have to admit the races were more thinly populated than RASCAR events. Shame that series fizzled out like that, actually, there were some good people in it. Jan. =---

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 22:44:01 GMT, Jan Verschueren wrote: > Any change is bad, eh? -Getting old, Uwe... ;-)) yeah, older by the day, my birthday coming up next week... whatever happened to gentlemanly racing? 8-( Change isn't generally bad though... like Linux taking the corporate desktop in Europe by storm is definitely a good thing ;-) cheers, uwe PS: I only run 1:18s at the Glen... should I bother turning up tonight? -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > PS: I only run 1:18s at the Glen... should I bother turning up > tonight? What the hell kinda question is that? Of course you should.

In article <ll4Za.57410$[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"EldredP" wrote... >> > <snip> >> I was in a league(Soar, I think) that had a "2 spinds, park >> it" rule. I don't *recall* anyone getting caught out by that, >> but I'm not sure. > >Don't think anyone ended up parking it there either. But you have to admit >the races were more thinly populated than RASCAR events. Shame that series >fizzled out like that, actually, there were some good people in it

Whoa, I didn't know it had fizzled out... That's too bad. I'm only aware of one driver who was penalized there. That was me, after I spun and took out another car. :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

So, with these 'no spinning' rules, we're going to OPEN setups, right? -Larry "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > bgoster@swbell**nosmap**.net says... > > I know chatting is a huge issue with you and I am sure that we all > > universally agree that there should be no chatting during Qual, but, > > honestly I think the only one that cares about chatting under yellow > > is you. > > I don't care as much about quals as I do the race session. > > > The funny thing is, I doubt that any of the rules will be an issue for > > me personally because I don't do any of the things you want to > > penalize people for and I think that goes for the majority who race in > > RASCAR as well. However, I think if you impose all of these you > > probably will see people quit simply due to the fact that it will be > > impossible to try and keep track of them all. > > When you get right down to it, these are the things you can be given > penalties for: > > 1) Spinning on your own or causing an incident within 2 laps of a > start/restart. This has ALWAYS been a problem. I was actually > going to make that within 5 laps of a restart, and I still > might change it. > > 2) Stupid passing moves (racing on the apron, or a pass that is > ill-advised that causes a caution). > > 3) Excessive chatting. > > Those three things are what causes our cautions and incidental > contact". That doesn't appear to be all that fuckin tough to > remember. DSon't spin, don't do stupid shit that causes an incident, > and don't chat. > > The rest (logging on with the right car file and not serving the > previous winner DQ) are just plain self awareness. > > > > I still think we just need some sort of demerit system that results in > > race suspensions and ultimately permanent suspension. That way we can > > promote clean driving and weed out those that week after week show an > > inability to control their car. > > If the reasons for the demerits are not precisely defined, some > whiney little bitch is gonna start crying and moaning because "it's > not stated in the rules". > >

Bamadano, Been there, done that. It's not fun. Wish her my best! -Larry "Bamadano" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >And sometimes the really important things in life slap you in the face... > >Screw RASCAR, it's just a game. More importantly - how's your wifedoing...? > > > >Eldred > > Thank you very much Eldred. She is much better today. Home now with afused > vertabrae in her neck but still kickin. I'll miss the Glen but like you > said...it's just a game. Many thanks for your concern Eldred. > Dan

>Been there, done that. It's not fun. Wish her my best! > >-Larry Will do Larry. Hope it worked out well for you. Thanks, Dan

"Larry" wrote... > So, with these 'no spinning' rules, we're going to > OPEN setups, right? Good point, if we're going for a forced park it rule I want to adjust on my car if someone reduces my luggage space. Jan. =---

In article <nR9Za.11551$ug.9170@lakeread01>, "Larry" <[email hidden]> writes: >So, with these 'no spinning' rules, we're going to OPEN setups, right? Not that I *know* of... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, John Simmons <[email hidden]> writes

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>In article <ULUeKBA1R+M$[email hidden]> >, >[email hidden] says... >> In article <3f32d16a$[email hidden]>, Ed Solheim >> <[email hidden]> writes >> >"Peter Ives" said >> > >> >> What it's likely to do is get people complaining that they are being >> >> victimised when a call goes against them. Though, if complaining on >RAS >> >> is one of the no-no's, then I'm not sure where they should do that >> >> complaining (Surely you made that one up Ed). >> > >> >Sorry Peter - you've lost me... I made what up? >> > >> >> That no-one's allowed to complain on RAS. That rule does seem a bit >> extreme. It sounds so much like a kind of public gagging that I hoped >> you had made it up. :) >> >> To me it smacks of creating a false image of what people think. If >> people aren't allowed to say what they feel, for fear of being >> penalised, then it becomes a form of control. Everything may seem fine >> on the surface, because no-one is allowed to speak up in public (Hey, >> sounds just like how governments work :), whereas behind the scenes >> there is a lot of ill feeling building up. > > >Pocono is the reason for that. I'm all for some spirited discussion, >but Pocono just tripped off line and things turned to complete shit. >

That's one situation only. Surely not enough to justify a complete gagging order. Wouldn't it be more reasonable, if the same kind of thing occurred again, to warn those involved to either, desist, take it private, or be subjected to an immediate race ban. I'm sure all those involved could live with a rule like that. Disagreements, as long as they have some kind of rationale, should be acceptable, as long as the disagreement stays within the bounds of whatever the protagonists don't see eye to eye about. Who knows, they may even help clarify a grey area or 2, of which there will always be a few. :) -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

It was 9 years ago, and I'm still recovering :) Mine was a rather nasty 12-hour, 5-Surgeon deal known as an Anterior/Posterior Multi-Level Fusion with Instrumentation and was in the lower-Lumbar area. -Larry "Bamadano" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >Been there, done that. It's not fun. Wish her my best! > > > >-Larry > > Will do Larry. Hope it worked out well for you. > Thanks, > Dan

Won't work then. -Larry "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <nR9Za.11551$ug.9170@lakeread01>, "Larry" <[email hidden]>writes:

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> > >So, with these 'no spinning' rules, we're going to OPEN setups, right? > > Not that I *know* of... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Holy crap. Sounds like the official term for a pain in the ass. Dan >It was 9 years ago, and I'm still recovering :) Mine was a rather nasty >12-hour, 5-Surgeon deal known as an Anterior/Posterior Multi-Level Fusion >with Instrumentation and was in the lower-Lumbar area. > >-Larry

> >It was 9 years ago, and I'm still recovering :) Mine was a rather nasty > >12-hour, 5-Surgeon deal known as an Anterior/Posterior Multi-Level Fusion > >with Instrumentation and was in the lower-Lumbar area. > > Stop whining Larry. It wasn't that fuckin bad. :)

A true understatement :) I didn't even wake up for 2 days, and when I did I requested they hit me in the head with a Hammer to put me back to sleep :) I have a demonstration video showing 13 minutes of the 12 hour operation (not mine, but the same). Believe it or not, Drills, Taps and Torque Wrenches (no shit) were involved :) -Larry "Bamadano" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Holy crap. Sounds like the official term for a pain in the ass. > Dan > > > >It was 9 years ago, and I'm still recovering :) Mine was a rather nasty > >12-hour, 5-Surgeon deal known as an Anterior/Posterior Multi-Level Fusion > >with Instrumentation and was in the lower-Lumbar area. > > > >-Larry > >