Well I guess Im the only one that has the balls to stand up to John (and
Eldred though hes a silent partner). This is getting ridiculous. Penalties
for nearly anything and everything. If JS dont like it boom, penalty. Some
of his retarded rules have nothing at all to do with "better racing" and
much more to do with JSs ego. The latest has just gone way over the line,
AGAIN. If you comment on anything about a previous race after Sunday you
will be penalized. Is he fn kidding? This is a PUBLIC FNG newsgroup!
Sadly no he isn't kidding. He's taking his self-empowered (Obsessive
compulsive) presidency way too far. He and Eldred both VOLUNTEERED to do
what they do. Eldred gives us a server to run on, and JS took care of the
cars roster/cars ect. No where during the initial conversation did anyone
say anything about either taking CONTROL of RASCAR or saturating us with
moronic rules, let alone creating a Nazi totalitarian RASCAR. The ONLY
person that has ANY say is Eldred, period and he hasnt said a word about
this (and yes Ive questioned him). Looking through the roster from the
beginning of RASCAR I see very few original drivers. To the new guys of
course this is ok as they really dont know any better.
My take is if John wants to run his OWN series then go create it yourself
dont come here and just TAKE charge like some 5'1" wannabee dictator.
Sometimes I really think JS wanted the racing to get as bad as it did after
Pocoho just so he could usurp and consolidate all RASCAR decisions onto
himself. (And no Im not a conspiracy theorist) The races have improved
drastically since Pocoho without any new rules in place.
Yea I do want a couple rules to make the racing better. Even more important
is the quality of drivers. We need some kind of practice race/tryout race
so we dont end up with some rook causing havoc over and over.
Another suggestion is let JS have the RASCAR ARCA series for those that wish
to participate and leave RASCAR alone for those that wish to run in an open
FUN/RESPECTFUL environment using the DEFAULT fast setups on NR2003 tracks
(not converted tracks except for fun of course). Just as the original
RASCAR Charter prescribed.
I know I know, JS has said it hundreds of times. "If ya dont like it quit".
How about if JS dont like it he quits?
Am I alone in my thinking here? We've already lost some great guys that
just got fed up. Ed come back and fight with me for the good of RASCAR.
I cant imagine Im the only RASCAR driver that feels this way? If I am then
its time for me to go back to Onlineracin.nets pay to play and avoid this
BS.
Dammit Im supposed to be working not leading some kind of RASCAR revolution.
IMO someone has to or RASCAR as we know is gone.
Just to be sure Im not being mis-interpreted. I fully appreciate EVERYTHING
Eldred and John have done in RASCAR to this point. Its just gone way too
far now and needs to be reigned in.
Mitch
Notable threadFlame warRASCAR revolt against John Simmons's rule enforcement
Mitch_A launched an attack on John Simmons's handling of RASCAR, accusing him of piling on penalties and rules, and David G Fisher joined him while declaring he would say what he liked. Simmons insisted the racing rules had not changed, only their enforcement, and that he and server host Eldred effectively ran the league, while Jan Verschueren and others backed him and Bruce Kennewell and Peter Ives argued for a democratic approach. The 225-post thread became personal and insulting, with Simmons noting only a couple of the 50-plus members were complaining.
Automated summary.
Would be funnier if that was Freudian slip
:)
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]...
> The races have improved drastically since
Pocoho
> without any new rules in place
So what you are saying is you aren't happy with John and RASCAR?
=)
--
Scott B. Husted
ICQ# 439540
http://www.Husted.cc
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one
behind me."
- General George S. Patton
"Mitch_A" wrote...
> <snip>
Ranting and raving is not going to make John change his mind, so save your
breath. There can be no "power to the people" racing league, someone's gotta
do it and it might as well be someone who enjoys doing it. <g>
The only surefire way to destroy what we've built up over the past year is
to carry on as you are doing. Something had to be done about the races with
the bigger fields. I started doing it, John has taken it a step further and
I'm sure most are willing to give "his way" a try. Please, don't argue
yourself out of a (possibly) good race every Saturday.
If you feel you need to break a rule, just break it and take your chances...
what's the big deal? (easy for me to say with an ocean between me and John,
but still... ;-))
Jan.
=---
In article <Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]>, Mitch_A
<[email hidden]> writes
<snipped>
Although I haven't raced on RASCAR, though being a regular here allows
me that entitlement, I guess, and therefore allows me the entitlement to
comment also, hopefully, therefore I must say that most of what you have
stated I agree with. When RASCAR first appeared here, it seemed to be a
communal venture to allow anyone on ras the opportunity for some online
racing without fear of coming up against the numbnuts drivers in open,
pickup races, and Eldred and John were glad to provide some time,
resources and effort to organise and get it up and running. At that
time there didn't appear to be anyone who was actually recognised as the
person who would decide on any kind of rule structure (it was very free
and easy).
Suddenly, without any opportunity for others to have a say in this, that
doesn't seem to have fallen on deaf ears, and a complete rule set has
reared its ugly head which, in my view, seems to go against the whole
ethos of why RASCAR came about in the first place. I'm not against what
John is trying to do, but surely this is something that should have been
put to all those concerned. Everyone should be entitled to have a say
in how RASCAR is run, but this no longer seems to be happening.
It may well be that these rules will improve the races, maybe not, and I
see nothing wrong with a ruleset used to keep things in place a little,
but these rules do seem to have just been applied without any chance for
all those others to say whether they agree with them or not.
I did see RASCAR as a series run by a group of equal individuals (bit of
an oxymoron there :) and surely it is important to keep it that way. I
can see what John is trying to do, a problem occurred and he has tried
to deal with it as quickly and efficiently as possible by implementing
this ruleset. However, no-one asked him to do so. He just decided he
would and there lays the crux of the problem.
--
Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77
No Mitch, you're not the only one. :-) I've had it too. Today was the limit.
I posted the following a little while ago over at the forum after I read the
latest "rule".
You've gone off the deep end. I'll say what I want, when I want. I estimate
I've been in 60+ RASCAR races (as much as anyone probably), and I don't need
all this junk that's been added to the setup of RASCAR ately. It's
ridiculous. You don't own this league. You volunteered to do a service. Just
do it or quit. You were never given permission to control RASCAR. Never.
RASCAR actually started when I bought N2002 and wanted to race familiar
names at ras. I said I'd rent a server. The idea made some laugh because the
GPL'ers had a chance to get the "Papy hater". Jan made some very important
suggestions and bought Eldred a copy of N2002 when Eldred volunteered a
server. This is supposed to be about familiar names from ras getting
together to race. I'll talk about anything, anytime, and anywhere I want
regarding RASCAR and if you don't like it, "don't let the door hit you in
the butt on your way out."
No one controls RASCAR. That's just a fact. I don't why the hell some think
that you, me, or anyone else has to obey laws layed down by an individual
when it comes to RASCAR. John volunteered to do a service. Eldred
volunteered his server. Because John has control of the invite list, he
thinks he can control everything, and now even thinks he can tell us when we
are allowed to discuss the damn races! We didn't need this garbage last
season. I want the old drivers back (Ed, Tony, Ian, and others) in RASCAR,
and if they can't make it every week, that's ok. I want the old rules
(basic). We say whatever the hell we want, whenever we want, just like we've
been doing for YEARS here at ras. We all have a simple straw poll when it
comes to decisions like what tracks to run in off weeks, instead of, for
example, being told we MUST by converters and run specific tracks.
John likes to say lately that if someone doesn't like his rules, they can
quit. As I said at the forum, if John doesn't like how things are, then he
can get the hell out. His time as dictator of RASCAR is up.
David G Fisher
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]...
> Well I guess Im the only one that has the balls to stand up to John (and
> Eldred though hes a silent partner). This is getting ridiculous.Penalties
> for nearly anything and everything. If JS dont like it boom, penalty.Some
after
> Pocoho just so he could usurp and consolidate all RASCAR decisions onto
> himself. (And no Im not a conspiracy theorist) The races have improved
> drastically since Pocoho without any new rules in place.
>
> Yea I do want a couple rules to make the racing better. Even moreimportant
> is the quality of drivers. We need some kind of practice race/tryout race
> so we dont end up with some rook causing havoc over and over.
>
> Another suggestion is let JS have the RASCAR ARCA series for those thatwish
> to participate and leave RASCAR alone for those that wish to run in anopen
> FUN/RESPECTFUL environment using the DEFAULT fast setups on NR2003 tracks
> (not converted tracks except for fun of course). Just as the original
> RASCAR Charter prescribed.
>
> I know I know, JS has said it hundreds of times. "If ya dont like itquit".
> How about if JS dont like it he quits?
>
> Am I alone in my thinking here? We've already lost some great guys that
> just got fed up. Ed come back and fight with me for the good of RASCAR.
>
> I cant imagine Im the only RASCAR driver that feels this way? If I amthen
> its time for me to go back to Onlineracin.nets pay to play and avoid this
> BS.
>
> Dammit Im supposed to be working not leading some kind of RASCARrevolution.
> IMO someone has to or RASCAR as we know is gone.
>
> Just to be sure Im not being mis-interpreted. I fully appreciateEVERYTHING
> Eldred and John have done in RASCAR to this point. Its just gone way too
> far now and needs to be reigned in.
>
> Mitch
>
>
Quoted text (18 lines)
> of his retarded rules have nothing at all to do with "better racing" and > much more to do with JSs ego. The latest has just gone way over the line, > AGAIN. If you comment on anything about a previous race after Sunday you > will be penalized. Is he fn kidding? This is a PUBLIC FNG newsgroup! > Sadly no he isn't kidding. He's taking his self-empowered (Obsessive > compulsive) presidency way too far. He and Eldred both VOLUNTEERED to do > what they do. Eldred gives us a server to run on, and JS took care of the > cars roster/cars ect. No where during the initial conversation did anyone > say anything about either taking CONTROL of RASCAR or saturating us with > moronic rules, let alone creating a Nazi totalitarian RASCAR. The ONLY > person that has ANY say is Eldred, period and he hasnt said a word about > this (and yes Ive questioned him). Looking through the roster from the > beginning of RASCAR I see very few original drivers. To the new guys of > course this is ok as they really dont know any better. > > My take is if John wants to run his OWN series then go create it yourself > dont come here and just TAKE charge like some 5'1" wannabee dictator. > Sometimes I really think JS wanted the racing to get as bad as it didMitch_A wrote:
> Well I guess Im the only one that has the balls to stand up to John
<SNIP>
'Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.' Bishop
Mandell Creighton, 1887.
David G Fisher wrote:
<SNIP>
David, I agree with you on this! But don't worry, I won't make a habit
of it. :)
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> No Mitch, you're not the only one. :-) I've had it too. Today was thelimit.
Dave,
While I may have issues with your driving (really only minor) I agree
with you.
I think we both have strong personalities and that leads to our
disagreements, however, I like driving with you on the track. I would like
to see RASCAR survive.
I fall in the rook category but hope I am not one that Mitch refers to when
he talks about problems every week
:-)
There should be no limit on discussion off the track as long as it is not
continued into on track confrontation.
Sean
The reason that I pulled out of RASCAR after only two race meetings was due
to a scheduling problem, which made it somewhat of a chore rather than a
pleasure to get up at 5:30 AM and race with the RASCAR group.
However, I have a strong feeling that I would have pulled the plug by now
anyway for being continually penalised for some silly infringement - most
likely the "no chatting" or the "no discussion in the Newsgroup" rules. :)
Sitting back and watching the reaction to John's edicts over the past weeks
reminds me very much of one of those hippy communes which sprang up all over
the place in the 1960's.
They proclaimed freedom for all; do your own thing, man, just don't tread on
anyone else's toes; we're all here because this is what we wanna do;
etcetera.
Gradually these peace-loving, free-wheeling communities found themselves
coming under some form of governance as people realised that there had to be
some basic rules by which they lived, even if it was as simple as who dug
the latrines, who watered and weeded the marijuana and who cared for the
kids and livestock. These matters were always discussed in open forum and
decisions arrived at by majority vote.
A democratic communist society, in other words. Government of the people,
for the people, by the people.
Well, RASCAR has reached a point where the bloke who is doing the basic
organising has taken it upon himself to make his own rules and regs and if
one doesn't like it then one can piss off.
A non-democratic dictatorship, in other words. Government by one.
That's the current situation in a nut-shell, from where I sit.
Bruce.
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]...
> Well I guess Im the only one that has the balls to stand up to John
"McWhom" wrote...
> <snip>
Who says there is?
As I understand the rules there's a cap on discussions relating to the event
itself or incidents therein. I think, e.g., it would be quite legal to
discusswhat level of interaction or interference between drivers on
different strategies we feel is acceptable. Generally speaking or relating
to a specific type of track.
Also, I don't think there's a problem with the "Are we racing
realistically?" thread as such, but the way it was first presented and has
subsequently descended.
Jan.
=---
I was going to stay silent but that's not in my nature ;)
1. I'd prefer it if the only rule was to turn the damn yellows off
however ....
2. I've had every opportunity to feed back on the proposed rule set and was
listened to with courtesy (not agreed with though) ;)
3. I'll give it a go with the new rules and see how it turns out. I'll
probably get done for chatting under yellow but I'll take that risk.
4. Until I decide I don't like it, I'll give Eldred and John my full
support.
5. John turned me into a newt ;)
Regards
"Scott B. Husted�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:hIt1b.1913$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (15 lines)
> So what you are saying is you aren't happy with John and RASCAR? > > =) > > -- > Scott B. Husted > ICQ# 439540 > http://www.Husted.cc > "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one > behind me." > - General George S. Patton > > > >"Bruce Kennewell" wrote...
> <snip>
> However, I have a strong feeling that I would have pulled
> the plug by now anyway for being continually penalised
> for some silly infringement - most likely the "no chatting"
> or the "no discussion in the Newsgroup" rules. :)
Excuse me, has it even occurred to anyone nobody has been penalized yet?
Jan.
=---
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:tVv1b.81680$[email hidden]...
You were told NOT TO comment on the Michigan race or you would be penalized
for tomorrow's race. You said you'd comment anyway. Go ahead then.
David G Fisher
Quoted text (11 lines)
> "Bruce Kennewell" wrote... > > <snip> > > However, I have a strong feeling that I would have pulled > > the plug by now anyway for being continually penalised > > for some silly infringement - most likely the "no chatting" > > or the "no discussion in the Newsgroup" rules. :) > > Excuse me, has it even occurred to anyone nobody has been penalized yet? > > Jan. > =---The fact that nobody *has* been penalised is a moot point, Jan.
The edicts have been made public and members have been warned that they
*can* be penalised. That's the crux of the matter.
Bruce.
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:tVv1b.81680$[email hidden]...
>
> Excuse me, has it even occurred to anyone nobody has been penalized yet?
He did Dave, I responded to the thread on the website.
Sean
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
penalized
> for tomorrow's race. You said you'd comment anyway. Go ahead then.
>
> David G Fisher
>
>
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:tVv1b.81680$[email hidden]... > > "Bruce Kennewell" wrote... > > > <snip> > > > snip > > You were told NOT TO comment on the Michigan race or you would beMy comment was not aimed at you Sean. Did I say/do something to you in the
past that would make you question?
Mitch
"McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
like
> to see RASCAR survive.
> I fall in the rook category but hope I am not one that Mitch refers towhen
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > No Mitch, you're not the only one. :-) I've had it too. Today was the > limit. > Dave, > While I may have issues with your driving (really only minor) I agree > with you. > I think we both have strong personalities and that leads to our > disagreements, however, I like driving with you on the track. I wouldQuoted text (8 lines)
> he talks about problems every week > :-) > There should be no limit on discussion off the track as long as it is not > continued into on track confrontation. > > Sean > >no comment
:)
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
penalized
> for tomorrow's race. You said you'd comment anyway. Go ahead then.
>
> David G Fisher
>
>
Quoted text (16 lines)
> > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:tVv1b.81680$[email hidden]... > > "Bruce Kennewell" wrote... > > > <snip> > > > However, I have a strong feeling that I would have pulled > > > the plug by now anyway for being continually penalised > > > for some silly infringement - most likely the "no chatting" > > > or the "no discussion in the Newsgroup" rules. :) > > > > Excuse me, has it even occurred to anyone nobody has been penalized yet? > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > You were told NOT TO comment on the Michigan race or you would beNo Mitch, just my personal paranoia :)
Sean
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:erw1b.4267$[email hidden]...
> My comment was not aimed at you Sean. Did I say/do something to you inthe
> past that would make you question?
>
> Mitch
>
Youre missing the point Im trying desperately to make Jan. I shouldn't have
to try and change Johns mind, who the hell is he to be making these rules?.
Get it? Do I think we need a few rules, YES.
Mitch <=== "Power to the People" <g>.
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:dMt1b.81421$[email hidden]...
> "Mitch_A" wrote...
> > <snip>
>
> Ranting and raving is not going to make John change his mind, so save your
> breath. There can be no "power to the people" racing league, someone'sgotta
> do it and it might as well be someone who enjoys doing it. <g>
>
> The only surefire way to destroy what we've built up over the past year is
> to carry on as you are doing. Something had to be done about the raceswith
> the bigger fields. I started doing it, John has taken it a step furtherand
> I'm sure most are willing to give "his way" a try. Please, don't argue
> yourself out of a (possibly) good race every Saturday.
>
> If you feel you need to break a rule, just break it and take yourchances...
> what's the big deal? (easy for me to say with an ocean between me andJohn,
> but still... ;-))
>
> Jan.
> =---
>
>
In article <3f468874$[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...
>
> However, I have a strong feeling that I would have pulled the plug by now
> anyway for being continually penalised for some silly infringement - most
> likely the "no chatting" or the "no discussion in the Newsgroup" rules. :)
Bruce, no new rules are in place regarding the actual racing. The
only difference is that if a rule is broken, the driver is actually
penalized by being required to DNQ himself for the next race in which
he participates. the rules have always been there, but in order to
keep the races clean, we're going to start penalizing people who do
stupid shit or commit unsportsman-like actions as defined in the
rules.
As far as chatting goes, I stand by my claim that if you're typiung
messages manually, then you're most certainly not paying attention to
what's going on in the race. I don't care if we're under caution or
not. Auto chat is fine, despite my feeling that "thank-you's" and
"sorry's" are completely unnecessary, and just delay more important
auto-chat messages. Nobody has been penalized for chatting yet, and
as long as it's kept to a reasonable minimum, they won't be.
Hoewever, when I've seen enough chatting, and I tell everyone to shut
up, that should be it.
> Sitting back and watching the reaction to John's edicts over the past weeks
> reminds me very much of one of those hippy communes which sprang up all over
> the place in the 1960's.
The "edicts" were simply *suggestions*. A *propoposed* set of rules
was put up. Those proposed rules were never in force during a RASCAR
event. The penalty point system I tried to work out didn't have the
desired effect, even when applied against our most caution-filled
race, so I scrapped the whole idea.
> A democratic communist society, in other words. Government of the people,
> for the people, by the people.
I don't know where anyone got the idea that a league was a
democracy...
> Well, RASCAR has reached a point where the bloke who is doing the basic
> organising has taken it upon himself to make his own rules and regs and if
> one doesn't like it then one can piss off.
Well, how is "pissing off" any different than deciding you don't want
to join a league to begin with because you don't agree with the
ruleset from the outset. Like I said, I don't give a rat's ass about
one or two people disagreeing with me. Rather, I am concerned about
the larger majority of people that want a better racing experience.
If people don't like the fact that they will not be penalized for
breaking the rules, they can exit stage left.
> A non-democratic dictatorship, in other words. Government by one.
Correct. (Actually, government by two, but Eldred is pretty quiet.)
> That's the current situation in a nut-shell, from where I sit.
I trust you read my response, and now realize that your assumptions
were invalid.
I know youre smarter than that Scott :)
Dang number crunchers speak an entirely different language :)
Just to be clear, I like RASCAR and John. Not at all happy about the turn
of events within RASCAR recently.
"Scott B. Husted�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:hIt1b.1913$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (15 lines)
> So what you are saying is you aren't happy with John and RASCAR? > > =) > > -- > Scott B. Husted > ICQ# 439540 > http://www.Husted.cc > "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one > behind me." > - General George S. Patton > > > >In article <dMt1b.81421$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
> "Mitch_A" wrote...
> > <snip>
>
> Ranting and raving is not going to make John change his mind, so save your
> breath. There can be no "power to the people" racing league, someone's gotta
> do it and it might as well be someone who enjoys doing it. <g>
Common sense and rational discussions is the best way to try changing
my mind. Someone telling me I'm full of shit is the best way to get
me to ignore their views.
> The only surefire way to destroy what we've built up over the past year is
> to carry on as you are doing. Something had to be done about the races with
> the bigger fields. I started doing it, John has taken it a step further and
> I'm sure most are willing to give "his way" a try. Please, don't argue
> yourself out of a (possibly) good race every Saturday.
Mitch is apparently only concerned with disagreeing with me.
> If you feel you need to break a rule, just break it and take your chances...
> what's the big deal? (easy for me to say with an ocean between me and John,
> but still... ;-))
That's pretty bad advice.
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>
> Common sense and rational discussions is the best way to try changing
> my mind. Someone telling me I'm full of shit is the best way to get
> me to ignore their views.
Although things are heating up I dont consider what I posted irrational in
the least. Seems for every rule you pull back on you have 3 more that are
worse.
>
>
> Mitch is apparently only concerned with disagreeing with me.
>
Not true. We may disagree on some things but for the most part I think
RASCAR needs a few BASIC rules. Its the width and breadth of YOUR rules
that causes me great concern. The main one now is your rule regarding any
race discussion time limits. Not thrilled about the previous winner to the
rear one either but I can live with that. Another area of concern are rules
that are nothing more than personal interpretation vs black and white issues
that can be addressed.
> That's pretty bad advice.
I agree breaking a VALID rule is unwise. The problem becomes the validity
of YOUR rules in RASCAR.
Mitch
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >
> I don't know where anyone got the idea that a league was a
> democracy...
I'd always assumed you were around since the beginning of RASCAR. Either
you didn't listen or refused to but RASCAR wasn't/isn't a league. You are
making that one up as you go.
Mitch_A wrote:
<SNIP>
My six credits worth:
If you don't like the rules, and you can't change them, then leave
RASCAR. Do you have any choice if EP won't do anything? If not, then do
not donate any money to Eldred, or support RASCAR in any way. If you
think you can do it better, why not get your own RASCAR server? You
might see people flock to it, since it would have fewer rules and regs.
For what it's worth, I /do/ agree with you: I won't stand for people
telling me what I can and cannot talk about. That "time frame" BS isn't
necessary (That's like saying it's wrong to talk about the WTC attacks
that happened on 9/11/01, because it's bad for America). Mr. Simmons
doesn't own r.a.s. This is a public forum for everyone interested in
simulators, as you well know.
Crossing things over is a touchy subject. When you talk or race on the
RASCAR server, then EP or JS can make any rule they want....since
they're in charge. Yet RAS is a public venue, so he (JS) can play Hitler
all he wants here because it won't do any good. If he's going to
penalize you for something you say here, I'd tell him to fuck himself.
He has no authority to regulate any such conversations here and he damn
well knows it.
In closing, if it's on-topic (anything involving a auto simulator) then
it's acceptable to talk about.
-Will
"David G Fisher" wrote...
> You were told NOT TO comment on the Michigan race or
> you would be penalized for tomorrow's race. You said
> you'd comment anyway. Go ahead then.
I already have. I'd comment on your incident (must admit I missed it) with
Oliver too, it's just I agree with John it's pointless to do so.
The state of that thread also prevents me from making the points I initially
intended to make, so I'll wait for a better/fresher opportunity.
Jan.
=---
"Bruce Kennewell" wrote...
> The fact that nobody *has* been penalised is a moot
> point, Jan.
> The edicts have been made public and members have
> been warned that they *can* be penalised. That's
> the crux of the matter.
So? -Did you think you'd get away with treating it like a game forever?
Jan. <g>
=---
No, John, my assumptions were and are not invalid.
The simple fact that you agreed that it is run as an autocracy and not as a
democracy supports what I said in my analogy.
There is absolutely no reason why RASCAR (or any league) can't be run on
democratic rather than autocratic lines.
The members of all the sporting and social clubs with which I have been
involved during my life have an equal say in not only the operation of the
club but also on who runs it and how.
RASCAR is no more than a small group of people with a common interest - a
club, in other words. A co-operative.
It's not - and should not be projected as - a computer version of the
governing body which owns and operates NASCAR or TOCA or even F1.
Bruce.
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> I trust you read my response, and now realize that your assumptions
> were invalid.
Will Im trying to figure out when Eldred and John became rulemakers? It
didnt start that way, they VOLUNTEERED for the services they each provide.
So if I volunteer to do some community service I get to be Mayor of my town?
Thats not how it works in my world :)
Ill do anything to make RASCAR better. IMO thats why Im putting up a stink
about this.
"William Bradshaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (32 lines)
> Mitch_A wrote: > > <SNIP> > > My six credits worth: > > If you don't like the rules, and you can't change them, then leave > RASCAR. Do you have any choice if EP won't do anything? If not, then do > not donate any money to Eldred, or support RASCAR in any way. If you > think you can do it better, why not get your own RASCAR server? You > might see people flock to it, since it would have fewer rules and regs. > > For what it's worth, I /do/ agree with you: I won't stand for people > telling me what I can and cannot talk about. That "time frame" BS isn't > necessary (That's like saying it's wrong to talk about the WTC attacks > that happened on 9/11/01, because it's bad for America). Mr. Simmons > doesn't own r.a.s. This is a public forum for everyone interested in > simulators, as you well know. > > Crossing things over is a touchy subject. When you talk or race on the > RASCAR server, then EP or JS can make any rule they want....since > they're in charge. Yet RAS is a public venue, so he (JS) can play Hitler > all he wants here because it won't do any good. If he's going to > penalize you for something you say here, I'd tell him to fuck himself. > He has no authority to regulate any such conversations here and he damn > well knows it. > > In closing, if it's on-topic (anything involving a auto simulator) then > it's acceptable to talk about. > > -Will >In article <Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Facts:
Tim hasn't officially quit
Ed hasn't officially quit, but he's starting his own operation
primarily because of my refusal to disallow passing before the
backstretch and to disallow racing back to the caution.
I don't know why Michael Loos quit - he didn't say.
The rest of the people (Mike Grandy, Guido, Bruce K, and Travis Lind)
said that their scheduled didn't permit them to participate.
Colin doesn't often have time to race with us, but being a legacy
RASCAR driver of considerable skill, he will always have a spot in
RASCAR.
Gary Kendall was removed from the roster because of a lack of
participation, but he can re-apply if he thinks he'll be able to make
the races.
--------------------------
If you quit now, you'll still be able to re-join if you reconsider
and think you can live with the rules.
Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I
have to put up with whiners.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > I know I know, JS has said it hundreds of times. "If ya dont like it quit". > How about if JS dont like it he quits? > > Am I alone in my thinking here? We've already lost some great guys that > just got fed up. Ed come back and fight with me for the good of RASCAR. >Mate, my problem doesn't stem from the fact that there are rules. Rules are
essential for an orderly and harmonious society.
I have a difficulty in accepting autocratic behaviour in what is essentially
a democratic co-operative, however.
And yes, Jan, no matter what slant you place on it, it is *still* a game.
Bruce.
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:xVw1b.81763$[email hidden]...
>
> So? -Did you think you'd get away with treating it like a game forever?
>
No, it's NOT a moot point. I could have just started doing it without
a warning. Afterall, the rules page states the following:
"The following rule set is a living thing, and can change from day to
day. It is up to you to stay informed, so before each race, I suggest
that you preview the following to make sure something hasn't been
added, changed, or deleted."
In fact, only one "rule" has been added, and that's the one about not
discussing races beyond the Tuesday following the race.
Another rule was moved to the "Common Sense" section (I forget which
one precisely).
The rest of the recent changes to the rules page have been
*clarifications* of existing rules based on past and current
discussions, and adding penalties for breaking those rules. I added
clarification so that the penalties would make sense.
Other than those things, the rules HAVE NOT CHANGED.
In article <3f4692c1$[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...
Quoted text (13 lines)
> The fact that nobody *has* been penalised is a moot point, Jan. > The edicts have been made public and members have been warned that they > *can* be penalised. That's the crux of the matter. > > Bruce. > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:tVv1b.81680$[email hidden]... > > > > Excuse me, has it even occurred to anyone nobody has been penalized yet? > > >"Mitch_A" wrote...
> <snip>
> I'd always assumed you were around since the beginning
> of RASCAR. Either you didn't listen or refused to but
> RASCAR wasn't/isn't a league. You are making that one
> up as you go.
Regardless, once the novelty of racing people you know from the newsgroup
has worn off it had to become more regulated to keep it enjoyable. Messing
up in a RASCAR race can not continue to be without consequences or there is
no incentive to actually contribute to a good race. It has to become more
league like in that sense and I think that would be hard to do without it
actually being more league like.
That said, I still believe we can make a big difference just nagging away at
people's sensibilities with the reviews, but John wants to take it further
and have I no problem with taking a step back en letting him.
You seem to think once this is in place there'll be no room to manouvre with
regards to the rules, which is unfounded, IMO. On the contrary, I'm sure
they will require adjusting in ways we can't even foresee at the moment. In
my league, even after 4 iterations, people still find stuff to do which
isn't covered by the rules.
Jan.
=---
Mitch_A wrote:
When they became rule-makers? Well, it's kinda hard to say. Just FYI, I
don't run in the league...but did consider it once.
If Mr. Pickett owns or controls the server, then he can make any rules
he likes. However, he /does/ have ultimate authority. If he gave Mr.
Simmons "powers" like that of an official, then he too can make rules on
a whim. This is how it works on MUD's, MUSE's, MUSH's, etc. When you're
on their server, they can do whatever they want. It's not fair (unless
it's set up as a democracy), but that's sadly how things are.
Per your "volunteer" statement, I do agree. They're performing a service
for the drivers, free of charge....as you mentioned. Then again, they're
under no obligation to do what the drivers request. Once again, the
drivers don't own and operate the server. That's why I brought up the
idea for you to possibly get your own. ;)
Unfortunately, there isn't much you can do apart from the suggestion I
made. Many of us enjoy the idea of a player-driven (no pun intended :)
server and community, where we get to vote on rules and changes. Many
others, too, don't mind being submissive to others in charge.
From my little time of reading the RASCAR forum, Mr. Simmons is a
self-admitted paint and rule nazi. It just depends on how the drivers
feel about him and his rules. If the majority like him, then remove your
support. If more follow your lead (or if you start up your own server),
then RASCAR /could/ be up the creek without paddles.
If such a "talking" rule is or comes into effect, I'll sit back and
enjoy the show. We both know, without a doubt, that someone is unwilling
to compromise. Does he have to? Hell no. Should he? If he wants "his"
drivers to be content, then yes.
It's all the nature of the beast of online gaming.
-Will
Quoted text (8 lines)
> Will Im trying to figure out when Eldred and John became rulemakers? It > didnt start that way, they VOLUNTEERED for the services they each provide. > So if I volunteer to do some community service I get to be Mayor of my town? > Thats not how it works in my world :) > > Ill do anything to make RASCAR better. IMO thats why Im putting up a stink > about this. >A discussion on where RASCAR was/is/going isnt whining :) I really want the
best for RASCAR or I woulda just left. I posted here because this is RASCAR
not at RSC.
I wont get into the semantics of why or when anyone quit. Thats their
business not mine. Youre not going back far enough anyway <g>. Part of the
reason some have quit is because their aren't any rules, that im sure of. I
want a couple rules to improve the racing. Most of your rules dont
accomplish that in the least. Knock knock knock, no man Dave's not here...
C&C <vbseg>
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]>,
> [email hidden] says...
> >
> > I know I know, JS has said it hundreds of times. "If ya dont like itquit".
Quoted text (35 lines)
> > How about if JS dont like it he quits? > > > > Am I alone in my thinking here? We've already lost some great guys that > > just got fed up. Ed come back and fight with me for the good of RASCAR. > > > > Facts: > > Tim hasn't officially quit > > Ed hasn't officially quit, but he's starting his own operation > primarily because of my refusal to disallow passing before the > backstretch and to disallow racing back to the caution. > > I don't know why Michael Loos quit - he didn't say. > > The rest of the people (Mike Grandy, Guido, Bruce K, and Travis Lind) > said that their scheduled didn't permit them to participate. > > Colin doesn't often have time to race with us, but being a legacy > RASCAR driver of considerable skill, he will always have a spot in > RASCAR. > > Gary Kendall was removed from the roster because of a lack of > participation, but he can re-apply if he thinks he'll be able to make > the races. > > -------------------------- > > If you quit now, you'll still be able to re-join if you reconsider > and think you can live with the rules. > > Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I > have to put up with whiners. >I was specifically referring to the following:
Jan: Also, I can't help it you pissed off DGF last Saturday, that discussion
has nothing to do with any review. If I have any time left tonight I'll add
my views to that discussion as well.
John: I recommend that you don't. First, further discussion about Dave being
mad about Michigan is pointless. Second, I've officially warned people not
to discuss it any further, so I would be obligated to penalize you if you
did. I honestly hope you don't force me to do that.
Jan: Well, there were certain points in Dave's post which you didn't pick up
on and there are certain aspects to your driving style that you may not be
aware off (note, though related, neither is specifically related to
Michigan). I wanted to comment on those when the thread had just started,
but I didn't have time. I haven't followed the thread since, so maybe what I
wanted to contribute to the thread has meanwhile been said and it would be
pointless for me to post. If they haven't and I still feel as strongly about
it as last Wednesday I'll risk the penalty, thanks.
As long as you don't censor me, it's ok for you to penalize me if you feel I
have broken a rule.
--------
You didn't add anything yet, so I was wondering if it was because you are
afraid of being the first to be penalized (ooooh), or if there's some other
reason?
David G Fisher
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:wVw1b.81762$[email hidden]...
initially
> intended to make, so I'll wait for a better/fresher opportunity.
>
> Jan.
> =---
>
>
Quoted text (9 lines)
> "David G Fisher" wrote... > > You were told NOT TO comment on the Michigan race or > > you would be penalized for tomorrow's race. You said > > you'd comment anyway. Go ahead then. > > I already have. I'd comment on your incident (must admit I missed it) with > Oliver too, it's just I agree with John it's pointless to do so. > > The state of that thread also prevents me from making the points IJohn Simmons wrote:
> Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I
> have to put up with whiners.
>
That's easy to say when you're in charge. You shouldn't forget that the
opposite train of thought is also true:
"Right now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that we,
the drivers, have to put up with John Simmons' rules that we, the
drivers, don't agree with."
People "whine" for a reason, Mr. Simmons. Go ahead and ignore them.
Refuse to compromise. Both you and I know that RASCAR will not last
forever. So, enjoy the ego trip.
-Will
"Bruce Kennewell" wrote...
> <snip>
> There is absolutely no reason why RASCAR (or any league)
> can't be run on democratic rather than autocratic lines.
Other than it doesn't work when you actually try to do it that way, I can't
find any theorethical objection to running a league as a democracy, true.
> The members of all the sporting and social clubs with
> which I have been involved during my life have an equal
> say in not only the operation of the club but also on
> who runs it and how.
Trouble is, in simracing the vast majority of the drivers doesn't care who
runs it an how, as long as there's a server to connect to and race on every
week. It's usually just a couple kiddies throwing tantrums if things aren't
run "their" way.
> RASCAR is no more than a small group of people with a
> common interest - a club, in other words. A co-operative.
> It's not - and should not be projected as - a computer
> version of the governing body which owns and operates
> NASCAR or TOCA or even F1.
It's not... in the beginning it was just some guy taking charge out of
nescessity to keep things from falling apart. And now, as recent events have
led this person to impose measures to try and clean up the racing a little,
there's a couple drivers, who seem to dislike being told they made a mistake
by him, making a fuss over that.
Eagerly helped, of course, by those very able seamen sitting on the keyside.
Jan.
=---
Bruce Kennewell wrote:
But that's the problem entirely: you don't own or control the server.
Unless Eldred says so, you (the drivers) have no control over the rules
and it'll remain a dictatorship. As with MU**'s, those who control it
can make any rules they like. Same kinda deal.
The initial idea was great: a place for RASer's to connect and race
weekly without the many demands and rules of a league. Sure, I
absolutely love the idea of having few rules and players choosing what
rules they want and don't want. But the reality is, it won't happen.
And, realistically, your only options are to hope something changes, or
quit.
-Will
Quoted text (16 lines)
> No, John, my assumptions were and are not invalid. > The simple fact that you agreed that it is run as an autocracy and not as a > democracy supports what I said in my analogy. > > There is absolutely no reason why RASCAR (or any league) can't be run on > democratic rather than autocratic lines. > The members of all the sporting and social clubs with which I have been > involved during my life have an equal say in not only the operation of the > club but also on who runs it and how. > > RASCAR is no more than a small group of people with a common interest - a > club, in other words. A co-operative. > It's not - and should not be projected as - a computer version of the > governing body which owns and operates NASCAR or TOCA or even F1. > > Bruce.In article <qzxRUMAXsmR$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Point of fact, I was the one that came up with the rules we used last
year AND this year. People had to read and agree to the rules before
signing up.
Above and beyond anything else, RASCAR is here to provide clean close
racing with a set of drivers that raced every week. To make things
easy on those of us with little time or talent to develope setups, we
decided on fixed setups, and fixed weather. To keep a touch of
realism in the races, we settled on double-file starts realistic
damage, and cautions on. To still keep it fairly friendly for new
drivers, we did not force anything on (smoke, windshield debris,
cockpit view).
And that ruleset was proposed as a DIRECT result of the quality of
racing we were experiencing. We were running 50% of the total laps
under caution. People were complaining about the racing. I proposed a
new set of rules, complete with penalty points. Despite the fact that
clearly 80% of the new proposed rules were comprised of original
RASCAR rules, along with more strict rules regarding chatting, people
were not happy.
So, I ran the ruleset against our most caution-filled race (17
cautions) to see if the penalties would result in any race
suspensions. Nobody earned enouugh points to be suspended for a
race. Since that didn't work out, I *abandonded* that proposed
ruleset, but I was still faced with trying to make the racing
cleaner.
That's when I decided that if a driver broke a rule in a given race,
making him start in the back in the next race in which he ran was a)
better for him because he could still race, and b) let him and
everyone else know that the rules would be enforced. Again, the
black-flag system was implemented to keep rogue drivers in check and
to hopefully clean up the racing. If that doesn't work, we'll try
something else.
Based on everyone's propensity for arguing about past races till
we're blue in the face (and I'm just as guilty of this as everyone
else is), I added a rule that stated that no discussions of past
races would be tolerated beyond 9pm central of the Tuesday following
the race (allowing three and a haldf days of virtually un-restrained
bickering). If discussions continued beyond that time-frame, each
person guilty of contributing to the discussion would be penalized
with a one-race suspension.
This penalty will be changed to an admin-black flag thrown on the
grid to force the guilty driver(s) to do a stop-n-go at the start of
the race if the patch does indeed allow a driver to serve a black
flag (the unpatched sim always DQ's the driver for such a black flag
despite the fact that the driver did indeed serve the penalty).
> It may well be that these rules will improve the races, maybe not, and I
> see nothing wrong with a ruleset used to keep things in place a little,
> but these rules do seem to have just been applied without any chance for
> all those others to say whether they agree with them or not.
Like I said, the rules haven't change regarding the racing. We've
just decided to enforce them. And if we decide that a rule isn't
working, it will be changed or deleted.
> I did see RASCAR as a series run by a group of equal individuals (bit of
> an oxymoron there :) and surely it is important to keep it that way. I
> can see what John is trying to do, a problem occurred and he has tried
> to deal with it as quickly and efficiently as possible by implementing
> this ruleset. However, no-one asked him to do so. He just decided he
> would and there lays the crux of the problem.
Having written the original rules, it's my job to maintain them and
make sure they are benefiting the racers. Everyone else wanted the
rules to change, but in different ways than what I had in mind. As it
stands right now, the *racing* rules are the same as they were at the
start of the season (but are now more clearly defined).
Quoted text (16 lines)
> In article <Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]>, Mitch_A > <[email hidden]> writes > > <snipped> > > Although I haven't raced on RASCAR, though being a regular here allows > me that entitlement, I guess, and therefore allows me the entitlement to > comment also, hopefully, therefore I must say that most of what you have > stated I agree with. When RASCAR first appeared here, it seemed to be a > communal venture to allow anyone on ras the opportunity for some online > racing without fear of coming up against the numbnuts drivers in open, > pickup races, and Eldred and John were glad to provide some time, > resources and effort to organise and get it up and running. At that > time there didn't appear to be anyone who was actually recognised as the > person who would decide on any kind of rule structure (it was very free > and easy).Quoted text (7 lines)
> Suddenly, without any opportunity for others to have a say in this, that > doesn't seem to have fallen on deaf ears, and a complete rule set has > reared its ugly head which, in my view, seems to go against the whole > ethos of why RASCAR came about in the first place. I'm not against what > John is trying to do, but surely this is something that should have been > put to all those concerned. Everyone should be entitled to have a say > in how RASCAR is run, but this no longer seems to be happening.In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
> No Mitch, you're not the only one. :-) I've had it too. Today was the limit.
> I posted the following a little while ago over at the forum after I read the
> latest "rule".
So are you saying you're quitting Dave?
> You've gone off the deep end. I'll say what I want, when I want. I estimate
> I've been in 60+ RASCAR races (as much as anyone probably), and I don't need
> all this junk that's been added to the setup of RASCAR ately. It's
> ridiculous. You don't own this league.
Well, in all actuallity, me and eldred both "own" the league (if you
can actually own an online league).
> No one controls RASCAR.
You're working on discovering that your assumption is invalid.
> Because John has control of the invite list, he
> thinks he can control everything, and now even thinks he can tell us when we
> are allowed to discuss the damn races!
See Dave, you're talking through your gigantic watermelon-sized
bunghole. Eldred runs the race server. He therefore controls who is
and is not in the invite list. I control the practice server,
therefore, I control who is and is not in that invite list. As far
as I know, the two invite lists match. If you're on the roster page,
you're in BOTH invite lists.
> We didn't need this garbage last
> season. I want the old drivers back (Ed, Tony, Ian, and others) in RASCAR,
> and if they can't make it every week, that's ok.
I want them back too, but Tony can't make it, and Ian has better
things to do that run around under caution all fuckin day.
> I want the old rules
> (basic). We say whatever the hell we want, whenever we want, just like we've
> been doing for YEARS here at ras. We all have a simple straw poll when it
> comes to decisions like what tracks to run in off weeks, instead of, for
> example, being told we MUST by converters and run specific tracks.
Rascar never had straw polls, and the rules haven't change regarding
racing.
> John likes to say lately that if someone doesn't like his rules, they can
> quit. As I said at the forum, if John doesn't like how things are, then he
> can get the hell out. His time as dictator of RASCAR is up.
You are so very wrong, Dave.
So are you saying you're quitting Dave?
Well, in all actuallity, me and eldred both "own" the league (if you
can actually own an online league).
You're working on discovering that your assumption is invalid.
See Dave, you're talking through your gigantic watermelon-sized
bunghole. Eldred runs the race server. He therefore controls who is
and is not in the invite list. I control the practice server,
therefore, I control who is and is not in that invite list. As far
as I know, the two invite lists match. If you're on the roster page,
you're in BOTH invite lists.
I want them back too, but Tony can't make it, and Ian has better
things to do that run around under caution all ***in day.
Rascar never had straw polls, and the rules haven't change regarding
racing.
You are so very wrong, Dave.
Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras
races. Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if John is
now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him. John certainly *thinks* he
has taken control of RASCAR.
Is this true or not?
David G Fisher
"William Bradshaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Bruce Kennewell wrote:
>
> > No, John, my assumptions were and are not invalid.
> > The simple fact that you agreed that it is run as an autocracy and notas a
> > democracy supports what I said in my analogy.
> >
> > There is absolutely no reason why RASCAR (or any league) can't be run on
> > democratic rather than autocratic lines.
> > The members of all the sporting and social clubs with which I have been
> > involved during my life have an equal say in not only the operation ofthe
> > club but also on who runs it and how.
> >
> > RASCAR is no more than a small group of people with a common interest -a
Quoted text (20 lines)
> > club, in other words. A co-operative. > > It's not - and should not be projected as - a computer version of the > > governing body which owns and operates NASCAR or TOCA or even F1. > > > > Bruce. > > But that's the problem entirely: you don't own or control the server. > Unless Eldred says so, you (the drivers) have no control over the rules > and it'll remain a dictatorship. As with MU**'s, those who control it > can make any rules they like. Same kinda deal. > > The initial idea was great: a place for RASer's to connect and race > weekly without the many demands and rules of a league. Sure, I > absolutely love the idea of having few rules and players choosing what > rules they want and don't want. But the reality is, it won't happen. > And, realistically, your only options are to hope something changes, or > quit. > > -Will >John Simmons wrote:
John,
I have not been participating much of late. You can go ahead and remove my
name from the invite list to make room for someone else.
--
Don Burnette
remove clothes when replying via email
Quoted text (39 lines)
> In article <Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... >> >> I know I know, JS has said it hundreds of times. "If ya dont like >> it quit". How about if JS dont like it he quits? >> >> Am I alone in my thinking here? We've already lost some great guys >> that just got fed up. Ed come back and fight with me for the good >> of RASCAR. >> > > Facts: > > Tim hasn't officially quit > > Ed hasn't officially quit, but he's starting his own operation > primarily because of my refusal to disallow passing before the > backstretch and to disallow racing back to the caution. > > I don't know why Michael Loos quit - he didn't say. > > The rest of the people (Mike Grandy, Guido, Bruce K, and Travis Lind) > said that their scheduled didn't permit them to participate. > > Colin doesn't often have time to race with us, but being a legacy > RASCAR driver of considerable skill, he will always have a spot in > RASCAR. > > Gary Kendall was removed from the roster because of a lack of > participation, but he can re-apply if he thinks he'll be able to make > the races. > > -------------------------- > > If you quit now, you'll still be able to re-join if you reconsider > and think you can live with the rules. > > Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I > have to put up with whiners.
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]>,
> [email hidden] says...
>>
> Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I
> have to put up with whiners.
You don't have to put up with anything.
Quit.
RASCAR will be fine without you.
David G Fisher
I was just being facetious. <G>
--
Scott B. Husted �
http://www.Husted.cc
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:6Fw1b.4277$[email hidden]...
> I know youre smarter than that Scott :)
>
> Dang number crunchers speak an entirely different language :)
>
> Just to be clear, I like RASCAR and John. Not at all happy about the turn
> of events within RASCAR recently.
>
>
> "Scott B. Husted�" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:hIt1b.1913$[email hidden]...
> > So what you are saying is you aren't happy with John and RASCAR?
> >
> > =)
> >
> > --
> > Scott B. Husted
> > ICQ# 439540
> > http://www.Husted.cc
> > "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one
> > behind me."
> > - General George S. Patton
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
> Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras
> races.
True.
> Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if John is
> now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him.
And I've asked Eldred through email a couple of questions.
> John certainly *thinks* he has taken control of RASCAR.
>
> Is this true or not?
Not. I won't truly have contol of RASCAR until Eldred's dead and
rotting corpse is lying at my feet.
I don't see that happening any timne soon.
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Now this I can live with.
> Having written the original rules, it's my job to maintain them and
> make sure they are benefiting the racers. Everyone else wanted the
> rules to change, but in different ways than what I had in mind. As it
> stands right now, the *racing* rules are the same as they were at the
> start of the season (but are now more clearly defined).
>
Sean
Quoted text (22 lines)
> In article <qzxRUMAXsmR$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > In article <Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]>, Mitch_A > > <[email hidden]> writes > > > > <snipped> > > > Based on everyone's propensity for arguing about past races till > we're blue in the face (and I'm just as guilty of this as everyone > else is), I added a rule that stated that no discussions of past > races would be tolerated beyond 9pm central of the Tuesday following > the race (allowing three and a haldf days of virtually un-restrained > bickering). If discussions continued beyond that time-frame, each > person guilty of contributing to the discussion would be penalized > with a one-race suspension. > > This penalty will be changed to an admin-black flag thrown on the > grid to force the guilty driver(s) to do a stop-n-go at the start of > the race if the patch does indeed allow a driver to serve a black > flag (the unpatched sim always DQ's the driver for such a black flag > despite the fact that the driver did indeed serve the penalty). >David G Fisher wrote:
Personally, I think it would be good thing for Eldred to step in from
time to time to get opinions from everyone involved in RASCAR races.
From the looks of it, Eldred merely hosts the game and Mr. Simmons runs
the show. It's likely that Eldred gave Simmons the clearance to do so
(just a guess, of course).
To me? Yes, it's true that it seems as though Simmons does control the
rules and most everything else as a RASCAR administrator (best term I
can think of).
There is, IMO, nothing wrong with getting direct clarification from Eldred.
-Will
Quoted text (8 lines)
> Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras > races. Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if John is > now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him. John certainly *thinks* he > has taken control of RASCAR. > > Is this true or not? > > David G FisherJohn, the fact that you have not penalised anyone IS a moot point,
irrespective of whether or not you could have warned prior to doing it. The
centre of the discussion was the creation and existence of penalties, not
whether any had been applied.
You want to keep playing around with semantics? :)
Bruce.
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> No, it's NOT a moot point. I could have just started doing it without
Damn John, you do like to egg people on don't you?
ROTFLMAO
Sean
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (20 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras > > races. > > True. > > > Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if John is > > now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him. > > And I've asked Eldred through email a couple of questions. > > > John certainly *thinks* he has taken control of RASCAR. > > > > Is this true or not? > > Not. I won't truly have contol of RASCAR until Eldred's dead and > rotting corpse is lying at my feet. > > I don't see that happening any timne soon.
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Are you volunteering to run things Dave? Do you have a server we can
practice on?
Will you enforce a rule set?
Will you take care of the website?
Sean
>
> David G Fisher
>
>
Quoted text (14 lines)
> > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]>, > > [email hidden] says... > >> > > Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I > > have to put up with whiners. > > You don't have to put up with anything. > > Quit. > > RASCAR will be fine without you.With respect, Jan: from my experience that's Crap, with a capital 'C'.
As I mentioned, every association or club with which I've been involved
since a callow youth has been operated on democratic lines.
They have all had their share of debates and differences of opinion but none
have ever operated under a system where the members have not been able to
sanction or veto any proposals, no matter how contentious or bland.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
Bruce.
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Ypx1b.81804$[email hidden]...
> Other than it doesn't work when you actually try to do it that way,
>> John Simmons wrote: I don't know why Michael Loos quit - he didn't say.>>
Aside from just not being able to compete as often as I wanted, I thought that
the RASCAR concept had become too political. I have raced online for many
years and, though not the fastest, feel I am at worst "capable." I was looking
for a weekly race that encouraged new drivers to be the best they could be,
while allowing the faster drivers to enjoy close competition.
If there is one rule that I would have liked to have seen, it would have been
"no yellows." The faster drivers dont have to worry about the guys causing
trouble because they are upfront and not likely to catch up to the trouble on
the bigger tracks. Very quickly the field will be strung out, and drivers who
are of a like talent will run together, making for a fun race for all talent
levels.
Be that as it may be, I quit, quietly, because we were told, "If you don't like
it, Quit." So I did.
Michael Loos (Shamrock 28)
"David G Fisher" wrote...
> I was specifically referring to the following:
> <snip>
> You didn't add anything yet, so I was wondering
> if it was because you are afraid of being the
> first to be penalized (ooooh), or if there's
> some other reason?
Ok, here's the deal... when I made the comment about the thread I was going
on a cursory read of same when it started. I came away with the impression a
sort of bump and run had taken place between you and Oliver and that you
thought he'd done it on purpose (I was pressed for time, otherwise I would
have read more carefully and responded or not on the spot). Which is
ridiculous, of course, as the effect of latency make it absolutely
impossible to do that sort of thing with anywhere near predictable results
online (especially at Michigan or any high speed track). In a way I wish it
were, though. It would be outlawed, of course, but I would like the option
of booting an annoyance (i.e. someone I wasn't racing for position or on a
wildly different strategy) out of my way and taking my chances with the race
stewards telling me off for it.
Anyway, having looked at the incident that's evidently not the case. Even
so, you seem to make it appear like there's a conspiracy against you doing
well in these races when, in fact, most of the incidents are as much to do
with you as anyone else. Reading the thread I summized you weren't very
receptive to that point of view, so I refrained from making any comment in
that direction.
Honestly, suppose I did and my comments were in line with Oliver, Craig,
John and Sean, would that change your mind on the incident? -Would you
accept someone could interpret your actions as being a mistake on your part?
You sure as hell didn't in the thread about the Pocono restart incident.
As for my take on John's tactics: he's gotten pretty wound up because you
protested his actions (indeed, if anyone is going to object to a lapped car
inserting itself in the battle for 4th it's #42's job ---> you're the one
who should have taken advantage of John doing so), so I didn't think he'd be
receptive to my "you can't keep on taking and expect no-one to
object"-opinion. John will gladly accept a let bye when someone considers it
not worth their while taking a chance with a latency incident by racing him
hard in the earlier stages of the game, but appears unwilling to extend a
similar level of courtesy when the chips are down and he's not really "in
the fight". Seeing as most seasoned online racers are not willing to take
chances with the way the game handles the differing delays in information
exchange there's no real way of letting him know their displeasure on track
(cutting him up, bumping him or brake checking him), so he can have his cake
and eat it. Which is patently unfair and unsportmanlike, IMO. But like I
said, it didn't appear to be a good time, so I didn't post that.
BTW: when I said "I already have", I meant this: "It's officially too late
to post the one for Michigan", which I took to mean: "don't post it or
else". I thought what I had already compiled with regard to the Michigan and
Bristol race merited posting to a degree where a possible penalty to myself
wouldn't matter, so I went ahead and did it anyway.
Actually, I didn't blatantly ignore John's statement, I just wriggled around
it. It's something us Belgians happen to be *very* good at.
Jan.
=---
It *is* if the person (and their policies, of course) whom you are
discussing does not agree with your views of said person (and policies). :)
Bruce.
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Hlx1b.3598$[email hidden]...
> A discussion on where RASCAR was/is/going isnt whining :)
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
LOL . . . <snorts Pepsi trough nasal passages> . . . LOL ;o)
To the truly sensitive go the spoils.
Elrikk
Quoted text (20 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras > > races. > > True. > > > Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if John is > > now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him. > > And I've asked Eldred through email a couple of questions. > > > John certainly *thinks* he has taken control of RASCAR. > > > > Is this true or not? > > Not. I won't truly have contol of RASCAR until Eldred's dead and > rotting corpse is lying at my feet. > > I don't see that happening any timne soon."William Bradshaw" wrote...
> People "whine" for a reason, Mr. Simmons. Go ahead and
> ignore them. Refuse to compromise. Both you and I know
> that RASCAR will not last forever. So, enjoy the ego
> trip.
Whether RASCAR continues because of Mr. Simmons or despite Mr. Simmons, Mr.
Bradshaw, is for history to decide.
So enjoy the RAS egotrip, Mr. Bradshaw, while it lasts.
Jan.
=---
"William Bradshaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> David G Fisher wrote:
>
> > Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras
> > races. Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if Johnis
> > now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him. John certainly*thinks* he
I can say without a doubt that eldred reads these ng posts. If he had
something to say he would.
Sean
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > has taken control of RASCAR. > > > > Is this true or not? > > > > David G Fisher > > Personally, I think it would be good thing for Eldred to step in from > time to time to get opinions from everyone involved in RASCAR races."McWhom" wrote...
> <snip>
> I can say without a doubt that eldred reads these ng
> posts. If he had something to say he would.
Indeed, Eldred's just delegated the "bad cop" role to John. <g>
Jan.
=---
"Bruce Kennewell" wrote...
> With respect, Jan: from my experience that's Crap, with
> a capital 'C'.
I speak from experience... in simracing strong, autocratic simracing leagues
have prospered while democratic clubs have invariably dwindled into
non-existance. I myself have turned the GPVL F3/FV league from a democratic
participation of 4 to an autocratic (I prefer the term "benevolent
dictator"<sp?>) regular participation of about 15 out of 20. IMO, there has
to be someone in charge (by selection or by nescessity) and he will have to
deal with the odd dissident or two, but, if he does, he can be successfull
in running a league.
You will note, following discussions and experiment, John dropped most of
his IGPS influenced rules, I hope?
> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
Obviously.. I still have some draft game vs sport posts lined up for when I
get around to tackling you on your earlier comments.
Jan.
=---
Quoted text (7 lines)
> As I mentioned, every association or club with which > I've been involved since a callow youth has been > operated on democratic lines. They have all had their > share of debates and differences of opinion but none > have ever operated under a system where the members > have not been able to sanction or veto any proposals, > no matter how contentious or bland.In article <[email hidden]>, "McWhom"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>Are you volunteering to run things Dave? Do you have a server we can
>practice on?
>Will you enforce a rule set?
>Will you take care of the website?
Actually, Dave volunteered to acquire the first server, and offered to pay for
it himself. I told him to save his money, because I had one that we could use.
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <[email hidden]>, William Bradshaw
<[email hidden]> writes:
>There is, IMO, nothing wrong with getting direct clarification from Eldred.
Nothing at all. See my other messages.
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <[email hidden]>, William Bradshaw
<[email hidden]> writes:
>The initial idea was great: a place for RASer's to connect and race
>weekly without the many demands and rules of a league. Sure, I
>absolutely love the idea of having few rules and players choosing what
>rules they want and don't want. But the reality is, it won't happen.
>And, realistically, your only options are to hope something changes, or
>quit.
Well, thanks for thinking the initial idea was great.<g>
Actually, it was a place to race and avoid deliberate wreckers. People who
couldn't run in leagues due to time constraints liked the low pressure to make
all the races. The problem is, such a casual attitude towards competion
can(and has) caused problems. John(and a few other drivers) wanted more rules
last season. I vetoed that, because I wanted to keep the friendier
environment. I also voted it down at the beginning of THIS season, for the
same reason(s). But, I'm tired of the constant driving around under yellow.
That's caused me to quit several races in the past year because, quite simply,
it's boring. So, I'm realizing the need for more rules. Hopefully, it will
make the whole experience better for those who stick around. If it doesn't,
we'll just have to try something else.
You only fail when you stop trying...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <uxw1b.4272$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>Youre missing the point Im trying desperately to make Jan. I shouldn't have
>to try and change Johns mind, who the hell is he to be making these rules?.
>Get it? Do I think we need a few rules, YES.
The admins of any league have the right to make any rules they see fit. In
every league I've seen, the rules are listed. Some may consult with the
drivers(or potential drivers, if a new league), some don't. If drivers agree,
they race and have fun. If not, they don't join(or leave if they're already
there). How is this any different? Granted, there might not be any drastic
changes in the middle of the season(I have an aversion to that), but clearly,
something needs to be done. The reasons for 'better' races since Pocono are
these(IMO):
Indy - easy, consistent track
Watkins Glen - road course, no yellows
Michigan - wide, easy track, plenty of room to race.
Bristol(and Darlington) will be a madhouse, we shouldn't delude ourselves
otherwise...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras
>races. Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if John is
>now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him. John certainly *thinks* he
>has taken control of RASCAR.
>
>Is this true or not?
Actually, you guys have NO idea of discussions behind the scenes. Do you
really think that I agreed with EVERYTHING that John suggested to me? And come
on, now - why would I worry about running afoul of John? I own the server,
remember? He has one as well. At the moment, it's still a committee of two.
If we ever reach an impasse, we're both perfectly capable of going our own
separate ways...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <[email hidden]>, William Bradshaw
<[email hidden]> writes:
I *have* seen leagues that forbade public discussion of incidents before.
Don't think that John was the first to think that up...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (7 lines)
>Crossing things over is a touchy subject. When you talk or race on the >RASCAR server, then EP or JS can make any rule they want....since >they're in charge. Yet RAS is a public venue, so he (JS) can play Hitler >all he wants here because it won't do any good. If he's going to >penalize you for something you say here, I'd tell him to fuck himself. >He has no authority to regulate any such conversations here and he damn >well knows it.> If you quit now, you'll still be able to re-join if you reconsider
> and think you can live with the rules.
>
> Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I
> have to put up with whiners.
"Hors d'oevres...which must be obeyed at all times, without question."
Sig heil !
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Did you're willie get slammed and destroyed in the door of one of your die
cast cars? Wife left you for a better looking eunuch? You are obviously one
insecure dude.
David G Fisher
Quoted text (20 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras > > races. > > True. > > > Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if John is > > now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him. > > And I've asked Eldred through email a couple of questions. > > > John certainly *thinks* he has taken control of RASCAR. > > > > Is this true or not? > > Not. I won't truly have contol of RASCAR until Eldred's dead and > rotting corpse is lying at my feet. > > I don't see that happening any timne soon.Mtich wrote:
> Am I alone in my thinking here? We've already lost some great guys that
> just got fed up. Ed come back and fight with me for the good of RASCAR.
I am sorry Mitch, but I tried to get my views thru - but it all fell on
deaft ears... I was probably just talking "bullshit"... So I've had it.
I'm gonna try and setup a RASCAR-BGN / T/A series to run on weeknights tho..
You're welcomed to join if you like.
--
ed_
John said:
> Ed hasn't officially quit, but he's starting his own operation
> primarily because of my refusal to disallow passing before the
> backstretch and to disallow racing back to the caution.
You better read answers to your own post and questions John...
I, Matt and Olav were just 3 out of many that "officially" quit when you
asked a week aho.
> Colin doesn't often have time to race with us, but being a legacy
> RASCAR driver of considerable skill, he will always have a spot in
> RASCAR.
Funny how rules apply differently to different people eh?....
Wrong.
Biggest problem is your inablility or will to see/accept other peoples point
of view John..
If you'd be willing to listen to others every now and then - there would'nt
be so much whining at you.
--
ed_
Quoted text (9 lines)
> Gary Kendall was removed from the roster because of a lack of > participation, but he can re-apply if he thinks he'll be able to make > the races. > If you quit now, you'll still be able to re-join if you reconsider > and think you can live with the rules. > > Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I > have to put up with whiners."EldredP" wrote...
> <snip>
> The reasons for 'better' races since Pocono are
> these(IMO):
> Indy - easy, consistent track
> Watkins Glen - road course, no yellows
> Michigan - wide, easy track, plenty of room to race.
I honestly thought you'd give RASCAR regulars more credit than that. I have
personally been witness to several incidents being avoided though sheer
skill/awareness/discipline at either of these tracks.
> Bristol(and Darlington) will be a madhouse, we
> shouldn't delude ourselves otherwise...
That is an entirely negative attitude and serves no other purpose than to
condone lack of discipline at either track.
It may well be that either race will be a yelllow fest, but this will not be
due to lack of skill by any participant, but rather the inability or
unwillingness to apply it correctly. It's your job, and John's, as admins to
encourage the right kind of behaviour rather than providing people with an
excuse in advance.
Jan.
=---
"McWhom" said:
> Will you take care of the website?
Sean,
In all fairness,
I was the one that setup, designed and maintained the website... After each
race I'd download the replay and results of Eldreds server, upload them to
ours, write a little something, and upload/post new addidtions to the roster
and carset.
All John really did was painting people's cars or telling them how to paint
them (according to his wishes - although they actually happend to be close
to mine - this time. :o))
--
ed_
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<jSnip>
>
> Actually, Dave volunteered to acquire the first server, and offered to payfor
> it himself. I told him to save his money, because I had one that we coulduse.
>
> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
>
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.Hey there Eldred,
Couldn't stay away any longer? <EvilG>
My point was just that his offering John the door (to me) implies a lot of
responsibility by the person opening said door. John does a lot of work
and despite the objections I do have, I would not want to take that on
myself. See my new thread for clarification on my objections.
Sean
"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3f46c48a$[email hidden]...
each
> race I'd download the replay and results of Eldreds server, upload them to
> ours, write a little something, and upload/post new addidtions to theroster
> and carset.
>
> All John really did was painting people's cars or telling them how topaint
> them (according to his wishes - although they actually happend to be close
> to mine - this time. :o))
>
> --
> ed_
>See my post to Eldred, I know you did Ed and I do not mean to take anything
away from your efforts. I have designed and maintained a few sites myself
and it is no easy task. I would like to see you stick with the group and
help us all to work through these issues. I do believe (As do most) that
some stricter rule enforcement is needed. We are just hashing out the bits
and pieces.
You know, For an Internet discussion this is all going very well. Where is
all the name calling? Ancestry? You would almost think a group of adults
were coming to terms with a change in the way they share a hobby here? :-)
Sean
Quoted text (7 lines)
> "McWhom" said: > > > Will you take care of the website? > > Sean, > In all fairness, > I was the one that setup, designed and maintained the website... AfterJohn Simmons wrote:
What about if he was ill, and couldn't speak or wee by himself?
Quoted text (26 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > >>Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras >>races. > > > True. > > >>Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if John is >>now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him. > > > And I've asked Eldred through email a couple of questions. > > >>John certainly *thinks* he has taken control of RASCAR. >> >>Is this true or not? > > > Not. I won't truly have contol of RASCAR until Eldred's dead and > rotting corpse is lying at my feet. > > I don't see that happening any timne soon.Maybe my grammer is bad or Im not getting my thoughts across correctly but I
was one of the first guys to say we needed a few rules. It's gone way
beyond that now. This morning I see a post that said "If you talk about a
race after sunday you get penalized" or something to that effect. Do you
honestly think thats a rule "to make the racing better"? This has been my
whole point since this all began after Pocoho. Some of the (now extinct)
rules/penalties were way beyond that idea as well. I was very pleased to
see em go and had posted a message saying I was in "goose-step" with the
furher at that point. Seems everytime I agree with John the next day we
have more ridiculous rules/penalties. The rules should be so easy to
understand that I can visit once in the year and still know what acceptable.
Not this change daily subsets of rules extended from earlier versions blah
blah blah (lawyer speak).
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <uxw1b.4272$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A"
> <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> >Youre missing the point Im trying desperately to make Jan. I shouldn'thave
> >to try and change Johns mind, who the hell is he to be making theserules?.
> >Get it? Do I think we need a few rules, YES.
>
> The admins of any league have the right to make any rules they see fit.In
> every league I've seen, the rules are listed. Some may consult with the
> drivers(or potential drivers, if a new league), some don't. If driversagree,
> they race and have fun. If not, they don't join(or leave if they'realready
> there). How is this any different? Granted, there might not be anydrastic
> changes in the middle of the season(I have an aversion to that), butclearly,
> something needs to be done. The reasons for 'better' races since Poconoare
Quoted text (13 lines)
> these(IMO): > Indy - easy, consistent track > Watkins Glen - road course, no yellows > Michigan - wide, easy track, plenty of room to race. > > Bristol(and Darlington) will be a madhouse, we shouldn't delude ourselves > otherwise... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.Would ANY rule make either of these track any more or less dangerous?
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >
Quoted text (8 lines)
> Bristol(and Darlington) will be a madhouse, we shouldn't delude ourselves > otherwise... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.Ahh, yes, I see now.......experience of sim-racing.
Righty-oh.
Bruce.
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:HZy1b.81906$[email hidden]...
> I speak from experience... in simracing.................etc.
It's actually "Sieg", not "sig".
If you are going to quote a piece of history, get the spelling correct,
please!
Bruce.
"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bi6ete$5ou3e$[email hidden]...
> Sig heil !
Just putting my views across here. I maybe a newbie to Rascar, but have
followed it since it started. So I'm not totally ignorant of what has been
going on.
I've got to throw my support behind John and Eldred at this stage. We all
know that Rascar started as an informal place to race with clean drivers
away from the crashfests of the open servers. Rascar is not a static thing.
Its evolving all the time. Rules are going to change. It can't be stopped.
If you try to stop change, it'll just run right over the top of you. I
suppose I'm more comfortable with Johns attitude to Rascar and the rules, as
its much like how my father ran our family. His attitude was this. "this
family is not a democracy, its a dictatorship, and I'm el Presidente. If
you don't like it, you know where the door is."
Now I hate authority of the power hungry type. But, man, you got to have
rules. Without rules you have anarchy. I have no problem with John (and
eldred) requesting that we limit the post races arguements of who was at
fault. What does it achieve to argue about it. Yes, debate and airing of
views is a good thing. But it can go on too long. At the end of it, you
just get two or more people failling to agree and nothing resolved. Shit,
man, its just a game. I'm just as competitive as the next man, but I'm not
going to block someone if they want to pass me. But I still may make them
work for it. At the end of the day, what does it matter where I finish in
the race. I'd rather let someone past than block and cause a wreck.
Result: one less incident and arguement back in the newsgroup.
About the previous race winner starting from the back. Good idea. We're
only racing for bragging rights in Rascar. Shit, what a challenge for the
driver. Having to work his way up to the front. This is what racing is
about. Testing your driving skills. Are you good enough to start from the
back and get to the front. With yellows on, its quite possible. Its also
going to teach the slower drivers the racing lines etc. Result: The slower
drivers are learning to driver faster, and hopefully better closer racing.
In the end, if Eldred supports the ideas from John, and keeps the server
going, and I agree with the rules, I'll race. At anytime that I don't like
the rules, I'll calmly voice my opinion. If things don't change, I'll
gracefully leave with no animosity. Since Eldred keeps the server up, he
agrees with John's public comments, so Eldred in my eyes, is running the
show. He is anyway, whether he agrees with John or not.
just my 0.02 worth. Ahh, feel much better now.
Steve
<large snip>
>I stand by my claim that if you're typiung
>messages manually, then you're most certainly not paying attention to
>what's going on in the race. I don't care if we're under caution or
>not.
This is the only one that I have a real problem with. 5 yellow laps at Dega or
Daytona would be miserable. No chat under green...sure, but under yellow...
Dan
In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
The whole point of what I'm trying to do is to reduce/prevent the
yellows from happening with RASCAR regularity. Even if we don't have
that many cautions, it's still STUPID to to be typing when you're
supposed to be maintaining a steady speed and steady distance between
you and the car in front of you.
Quoted text (10 lines)
> <large snip> > >I stand by my claim that if you're typiung > >messages manually, then you're most certainly not paying attention to > >what's going on in the race. I don't care if we're under caution or > >not. > > This is the only one that I have a real problem with. 5 yellow laps at Dega or > Daytona would be miserable. No chat under green...sure, but under yellow... > Dan >I hope everyone else saw that as a joke too.
In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Quoted text (29 lines)
> Damn John, you do like to egg people on don't you? > > ROTFLMAO > Sean > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, > > [email hidden] says... > > > Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras > > > races. > > > > True. > > > > > Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if John is > > > now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him. > > > > And I've asked Eldred through email a couple of questions. > > > > > John certainly *thinks* he has taken control of RASCAR. > > > > > > Is this true or not? > > > > Not. I won't truly have contol of RASCAR until Eldred's dead and > > rotting corpse is lying at my feet. > > > > I don't see that happening any timne soon. > > >In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Technically, I wasn't disallowing discussion, I simply put a time-
limit on it's duration. Three and a half days to vent and ping is
certainly more than enough time.
Quoted text (16 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, William Bradshaw > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Crossing things over is a touchy subject. When you talk or race on the > >RASCAR server, then EP or JS can make any rule they want....since > >they're in charge. Yet RAS is a public venue, so he (JS) can play Hitler > >all he wants here because it won't do any good. If he's going to > >penalize you for something you say here, I'd tell him to fuck himself. > >He has no authority to regulate any such conversations here and he damn > >well knows it. > > I *have* seen leagues that forbade public discussion of incidents before. > Don't think that John was the first to think that up... > > Eldred >
"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3f46bfa1$[email hidden]...
>
> I am sorry Mitch, but I tried to get my views thru - but it all fell on
> deaft ears... I was probably just talking "bullshit"... So I've hadit.
>
I valued your input. IMO a voice of reason amongst the insanity :)
> I'm gonna try and setup a RASCAR-BGN / T/A series to run on weeknightstho..
> You're welcomed to join if you like.
Thanks for the offer Ed! What time zone and at what time? I dont think I'd
be able so early in the day -8 gmt but I can get an extended lunch hour
occasionally <vbg>.
>
> --
> ed_
>
>
In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
The offer to use the door was meant for everyone. It's just more
convenient to use the words "you" and "your". I assume everyone has
a fairly good handle on use of the laguage.
Quoted text (26 lines)
> > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > <jSnip> > > > > Actually, Dave volunteered to acquire the first server, and offered to pay > for > > it himself. I told him to save his money, because I had one that we could > use. > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > Hey there Eldred, > Couldn't stay away any longer? <EvilG> > My point was just that his offering John the door (to me) implies a lot of > responsibility by the person opening said door. John does a lot of work > and despite the objections I do have, I would not want to take that on > myself. See my new thread for clarification on my objections. > > Sean > > >In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...
Let me think about that for a while...
Would I take advantage of a cripples inability to defent himself (or
wee on his own)?
Hmmmmm....
Yeah. He'd be toast.
:)
Quoted text (31 lines)
> John Simmons wrote: > > In article <[email hidden]>, > > [email hidden] says... > > > >>Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras > >>races. > > > > > > True. > > > > > >>Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if John is > >>now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him. > > > > > > And I've asked Eldred through email a couple of questions. > > > > > >>John certainly *thinks* he has taken control of RASCAR. > >> > >>Is this true or not? > > > > > > Not. I won't truly have contol of RASCAR until Eldred's dead and > > rotting corpse is lying at my feet. > > > > I don't see that happening any timne soon. > > What about if he was ill, and couldn't speak or wee by himself? > >In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
I am pretty sure I said it that way in the forum too Sean.
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > This penalty will be changed to an admin-black flag thrown on the > > grid to force the guilty driver(s) to do a stop-n-go at the start of > > the race if the patch does indeed allow a driver to serve a black > > flag (the unpatched sim always DQ's the driver for such a black flag > > despite the fact that the driver did indeed serve the penalty). > > > > Now this I can live with.Quoted text (7 lines)
>The whole point of what I'm trying to do is to reduce/prevent the >yellows from happening with RASCAR regularity. Even if we don't have >that many cautions, it's still STUPID to to be typing when you're >supposed to be maintaining a steady speed and steady distance between >you and the car in front of you. > >In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
There's really no reason to do anything other than auto-chatting.
You can't convince me.
Quoted text (15 lines)
> >The whole point of what I'm trying to do is to reduce/prevent the > >yellows from happening with RASCAR regularity. Even if we don't have > >that many cautions, it's still STUPID to to be typing when you're > >supposed to be maintaining a steady speed and steady distance between > >you and the car in front of you. > > > > > > I understand that John. No way in hell I would attempt chat at ANYTIME at > Bristol or Marty but...it's not that tough on the larger tracks. How about no > chat when spotter says one to go? Using common sense and according to track and > situation of course. I guess I'm wondering if this particular rule is a "hard > and fast" rule? > Dan >You should just get Tyler Hudson to hold a class on how to type chat and
drive at the same time. He's mastered the art of typing out novels in the
middle of a race at even short tracks and road courses. <VBG>
--
Scott B. Husted �
http://www.Husted.cc
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> [email hidden] says...
> > >The whole point of what I'm trying to do is to reduce/prevent the
> > >yellows from happening with RASCAR regularity. Even if we don't have
> > >that many cautions, it's still STUPID to to be typing when you're
> > >supposed to be maintaining a steady speed and steady distance between
> > >you and the car in front of you.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I understand that John. No way in hell I would attempt chat at ANYTIME
at
> > Bristol or Marty but...it's not that tough on the larger tracks. How
about no
> > chat when spotter says one to go? Using common sense and according to
track and
> > situation of course. I guess I'm wondering if this particular rule is a
"hard
> > and fast" rule?
> > Dan
> >
>
> There's really no reason to do anything other than auto-chatting.
> You can't convince me.
>
>
Dave was offering you the door John. Context man, context.
Sean :-)
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
pay
> > for
> > > it himself. I told him to save his money, because I had one that wecould
of
> > responsibility by the person opening said door. John does a lot ofwork
Quoted text (8 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > <jSnip> > > > > > > Actually, Dave volunteered to acquire the first server, and offered toQuoted text (10 lines)
> > use. > > > > > > Eldred > > > -- > > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > > > > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > > Hey there Eldred, > > Couldn't stay away any longer? <EvilG> > > My point was just that his offering John the door (to me) implies a lotQuoted text (11 lines)
> > and despite the objections I do have, I would not want to take that on > > myself. See my new thread for clarification on my objections. > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > The offer to use the door was meant for everyone. It's just more > convenient to use the words "you" and "your". I assume everyone has > a fairly good handle on use of the laguage.Exactly.
Just for the record, would someone please explain to me the difference in
enjoyment between wreckers on the Sierra servers and 50% cautions in RASCAR,
please. Anyone who thought that doing nothing about the amount of yellows would
actually improve the racing must be from some other planet. So John went all
the way with it and Eldred has no problem with him. So what.
Sure, John can be a hardass, and Eldred makes for a good moderate. But does
anyone here actually want John's job? I haven't heard ANYONE say they want that
responsibility.
Not to dimish what Eldred does, in no way whatsoever, but unless I'm mistaken,
all he does he start/restart the server. I've had to admin And run to the
office to jump start a server. I'd rather run to the office than try what John
is doing any day.
The guy busts his ass for what is basically a pickup league with no skill
requirements to join but rules to follow if you want to stay. What is wrong
with that. As far as I can tell, he has been nothing if not consistent, which
is a lot more than I can say for most admins.
How many people here have actually tried to admin a league. Any league. How
many times did YOU get bitched at casue you couldn't please everyone.
IMO if John wants to run RASCAR roughshod that should be just fine with anyone
who wants to improve the overall racing for EVERYONE.
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>, William Bradshaw
> Hopefully, it will make the whole experience better for those who stick
around. If it doesn't,
> we'll just have to try something else.
> You only fail when you stop trying...
That's the point I think. It's not about the ones who can do it and maintain
the pace under yellow.
It's the guy you see in front of you that is now down below the apron, 3 secs
back, turn back up the track, and there pops up his msg.. Right after the admin
says something important and it gets replaced on the screen so fast you can't
read it.
:)
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"Bamadano" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> No way in hell I would attempt chat at ANYTIME at Bristol or Marty but...it's
not that tough on the larger tracks.
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> [email hidden] says...
>
>
> I am pretty sure I said it that way in the forum too Sean.
Well now, aren't I an ass! For whatever reason, and you said it this way in
your post in this thread, I thought it would be a one race suspension.
John typed > "If discussions continued beyond that time-frame, each
person guilty of contributing to the discussion would be penalized
with a one-race suspension"
To be honest, currently a stop and go would not be that big a penalty for
me, back marker that I am :)
I have been doing everything I can to get this damn computer to run NR2K3
better and no luck. I do not know when I will be able to race online with
the group again but right now there is just no way.
Don't drop me from the roster though, not yet.
I will likely log in and observe the race, Is there anyway to watch the race
without picking a specific car to follow?
I also asked this in the forum but got no response, how would one view the
chat log? I have my game set to save it but do not know how to view it. I
have looked in all my game folders and do not see anything that looks like a
viewable log.
And just to stick to my guns and not be a hypocrite, I still believe that
restricting comments either in content or timeframe is wrong. This being
the viewpoint of a spoiled American who is accustomed to saying whatever the
h*ll he wants whenever he wants <G>.
Sean
rofl
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]>,
> Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I
> have to put up with whiners.
>
But your not doing that anymore now are you bud :)
So my question would be, who is doing that now?
:)
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3f46c48a$[email hidden]...
> In all fairness,
> I was the one that setup, designed and maintained the website... After each
> race I'd download the replay and results of Eldreds server, upload them to
> ours, write a little something, and upload/post new addidtions to the roster
> and carset.
>
> All John really did was painting people's cars or telling them how to paint
> them (according to his wishes - although they actually happend to be close
> to mine - this time. :o))
>
I can recall his reassessment of Robert, if anyone cares to wonder if John
listens to people.
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3f46c240$[email hidden]...
> Biggest problem is your inablility or will to see/accept other peoples point
of view John..
> If you'd be willing to listen to others every now and then - there would'nt be
so much whining at you.
I always swore he had momma typing on that keyboard :)
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3f46f10f$[email hidden]...
> You should just get Tyler Hudson to hold a class on how to type chat and
> drive at the same time. He's mastered the art of typing out novels in the
> middle of a race at even short tracks and road courses. <VBG>
>
You can watch a race full screen thru the replay, live, as if you were watching
one offline, after the race, with all the same features.
Just don't park it on the speedway, thanks.
:)
To follow the chat log, you have to exit the replay screen itself, but you can
still watch it. Just press CHAT.
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I will likely log in and observe the race, Is there anyway to watch the race
> without picking a specific car to follow?
> I also asked this in the forum but got no response, how would one view the
> chat log?
That sucking sound may just be TBases lips coming off Johns butt :)
"Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:l0C1b.11339$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (15 lines)
> rofl > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]>, > > Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I > > have to put up with whiners. > > > >In article <[email hidden]>, John Simmons
<[email hidden]> writes:
>The whole point of what I'm trying to do is to reduce/prevent the
>yellows from happening with RASCAR regularity. Even if we don't have
>that many cautions, it's still STUPID to to be typing when you're
>supposed to be maintaining a steady speed and steady distance between
>you and the car in front of you.
Agreed. It may be boring on the longer tracks, but look at it this way. It's
an incentive for people NOT to cause wrecks...<g>
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <NNz1b.4228$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>Would ANY rule make either of these track any more or less dangerous?
>
>
>"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >
>> Bristol(and Darlington) will be a madhouse, we shouldn't delude ourselves
>> otherwise...
Nope, and I may skip both of them because of it...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <sIz1b.4226$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>Maybe my grammer is bad or Im not getting my thoughts across correctly but I
>was one of the first guys to say we needed a few rules. It's gone way
>beyond that now. This morning I see a post that said "If you talk about a
>race after sunday you get penalized" or something to that effect. Do you
>honestly think thats a rule "to make the racing better"?
Not at all. It doesn't do a damn thing for the racing. But it eliminates(or
lessens) the BS wars we've had here in the past.
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <[email hidden]>, "McWhom"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>I can say without a doubt that eldred reads these ng posts. If he had
>something to say he would.
Well, I've been a bit busy this week. Life has a way of intruding...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <VLy1b.81895$[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>Indeed, Eldred's just delegated the "bad cop" role to John. <g>
Hey, he's pretty damn GOOD at it... :-)
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <3f46c240$[email hidden]>, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]>
writes:
>> Colin doesn't often have time to race with us, but being a legacy
>> RASCAR driver of considerable skill, he will always have a spot in
>> RASCAR.
>
>Funny how rules apply differently to different people eh?....
How's that? He's said that all the drivers who quit were welcome to come back
at a later date. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you mean, though...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <9rz1b.81934$[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>I honestly thought you'd give RASCAR regulars more credit than that. I have
>personally been witness to several incidents being avoided though sheer
>skill/awareness/discipline at either of these tracks.
I'm usually running near the back, remember? I never SEE those, and I haven't
reviewed many replays...
Point taken.
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (11 lines)
>> Bristol(and Darlington) will be a madhouse, we >> shouldn't delude ourselves otherwise... > >That is an entirely negative attitude and serves no other purpose than to >condone lack of discipline at either track. > >It may well be that either race will be a yelllow fest, but this will not be >due to lack of skill by any participant, but rather the inability or >unwillingness to apply it correctly. It's your job, and John's, as admins to >encourage the right kind of behaviour rather than providing people with an >excuse in advance.I think the source of the problem is when rules reach that point that people
are being told what they can discuss, when and where...and when those rules
are being imposed by someone who clearly relishes the role of imposing
rules.
I don't participate in RASCAR, but this situation reminds me of one of my
local (city-owned, volunteer run) tennis clubs. The new "Director of
Operations" of course does (and has done) many useful things for the club,
but they are overshadowed by his overbearing dictatorial attitude that
garnered him with the nickname "the Nazi." He too relishes rules and order
and once exclaimed that when he took over the club, it would be run like a
concentration camp. he actually thought this was a positive statement,
bringing order to the chaos that only he could see. I honestly believe that
he didn't mean anything anti-Semitic by it, but it also wouldn't surprise me
if someone was deeply offended by his comment.
John seems to me to be a similar type of person. Competent. Hard working.
Knowledgeable. Socially inept. Rules freak. It is up to RASCAR members to
decide whether the benefits outweigh the costs in having someone of that
nature "running" the operation. Because John is 100% convinced that a
"league" has to be run with these strict rules, there will be no compromise.
Like "real life," the majority won't want to get involved---just keep their
heads down and hope they can keep consuming/playing/etc. There will be the
tiny minority of vocal opponents (Mitch and DGF). There are those who
agree with the vocal opponents, but who can't bring themselves to be vocal.
Solution that hopefully all can agree to: Members should express their views
to the server owner (Eldred...and maybe John, too, if he also owns one that
could be used) as to what general level and aspect of rules they would like
used and enforced. Just keep it at the broad level, with topics like
flags/penalties; foul language; chatting during races; freedom of
discussion/expression outside the confines of a race; civility of treatment
amongst members/admins; etc.
If a majority like the "heavy" rules that seem to be in place now, then the
others should leave and go form RASCAR2, perhaps attracting back those who
have already left. If the majority only want "basic" rules that directly
affect the races themselves/racing, then John and Eldred should respect
this...or, if they can't bring themselves to do so, should resign/quit. It
really shouldn't have to degenerate into a pissing match--there aren't
enough of us ras'ers to split into hardened factions. From what I am
reading, I also don't believe that the two "camps" have irreconcilable
differences. It's more a matter of personality conflicts that can be
avoided or worked around for the benefit of continued RASCAR operations.
Best wishes!
Marc
"Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:NTB1b.11336$[email hidden]...
> Exactly.
>
> Just for the record, would someone please explain to me the difference in
> enjoyment between wreckers on the Sierra servers and 50% cautions inRASCAR,
> please. Anyone who thought that doing nothing about the amount of yellowswould
> actually improve the racing must be from some other planet. So John wentall
> the way with it and Eldred has no problem with him. So what.
>
> Sure, John can be a hardass, and Eldred makes for a good moderate. Butdoes
> anyone here actually want John's job? I haven't heard ANYONE say theywant that
> responsibility.
>
> Not to dimish what Eldred does, in no way whatsoever, but unless I'mmistaken,
> all he does he start/restart the server. I've had to admin And run to the
> office to jump start a server. I'd rather run to the office than try whatJohn
> is doing any day.
>
> The guy busts his ass for what is basically a pickup league with no skill
> requirements to join but rules to follow if you want to stay. What iswrong
> with that. As far as I can tell, he has been nothing if not consistent,which
> is a lot more than I can say for most admins.
>
> How many people here have actually tried to admin a league. Any league.How
> many times did YOU get bitched at casue you couldn't please everyone.
>
> IMO if John wants to run RASCAR roughshod that should be just fine withanyone
Quoted text (16 lines)
> who wants to improve the overall racing for EVERYONE. > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, William Bradshaw > > Hopefully, it will make the whole experience better for those who stick > around. If it doesn't, > > we'll just have to try something else. > > You only fail when you stop trying... > >Jan Verschueren wrote:
Fwiw, one of the oldest leagues out there - Sascar, which I am a proud
member of, has always run pretty much democratic. Rodney Arndt, the league
admin, has been doing this a long time, does a great job, and pretty much
makes it a league of what the drivers want. Yes, it has rules, but not quite
so strong as some being mentioned here. And, any changes thought about are
put to a poll for the drivers to vote on, and he pretty much always goes for
what the majority wants. Sascar even has a replay committee that reviews
incidents that bring out a yellow, and penalize points for those that are
obviously responsible for bringing out the yellow, which is cumulative
during a season and can lead to race suspensions.
Must be doing something right, as there is quite a waiting list for this
league.
Don Burnette
--
Don Burnette
remove clothes when replying via email
Quoted text (32 lines)
> "Bruce Kennewell" wrote... >> With respect, Jan: from my experience that's Crap, with >> a capital 'C'. > > I speak from experience... in simracing strong, autocratic simracing > leagues have prospered while democratic clubs have invariably > dwindled into non-existance. I myself have turned the GPVL F3/FV > league from a democratic participation of 4 to an autocratic (I > prefer the term "benevolent dictator"<sp?>) regular participation of > about 15 out of 20. IMO, there has to be someone in charge (by > selection or by nescessity) and he will have to deal with the odd > dissident or two, but, if he does, he can be successfull in running a > league. > >> As I mentioned, every association or club with which >> I've been involved since a callow youth has been >> operated on democratic lines. They have all had their >> share of debates and differences of opinion but none >> have ever operated under a system where the members >> have not been able to sanction or veto any proposals, >> no matter how contentious or bland. > > You will note, following discussions and experiment, John dropped > most of his IGPS influenced rules, I hope? > >> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. > > Obviously.. I still have some draft game vs sport posts lined up for > when I get around to tackling you on your earlier comments. > > Jan. > =---
"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> It's actually "Sieg", not "sig".
> If you are going to quote a piece of history, get the spelling correct,
> please!
>It's not a history lesson, or a spelling lesson...it's Fawlty Towers.
Well, not the Sieg/Sig/Zeig Heil bit.
I thought you were one of the less serious ppl on here, anyway ?
I believe I may have mentioned the fact that Herr Simmons was an arrogant
tosser about 2 years ago...hmmmm ?
Jan Verschueren wrote:
The UKGPL league is a (mostly) democratic league and is one of, if not the
largest, national sim racing league. It has been running since 1999.
There are 276 members currently registered on the yahoo group, hardly
"dwindled into non-existance" ;)
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spammers>
Quoted text (16 lines)
> "Bruce Kennewell" wrote... >> With respect, Jan: from my experience that's Crap, with >> a capital 'C'. > > I speak from experience... in simracing strong, autocratic simracing > leagues have prospered while democratic clubs have invariably > dwindled into non-existance. I myself have turned the GPVL F3/FV > league from a democratic participation of 4 to an autocratic (I > prefer the term "benevolent dictator"<sp?>) regular participation of > about 15 out of 20. IMO, there has to be someone in charge (by > selection or by nescessity) and he will have to deal with the odd > dissident or two, but, if he does, he can be successfull in running a > league. > > Jan. > =---"Mitch_A" wrote...
> Would ANY rule make either of these track any more
> or less dangerous?
I can only think of one: not allowing anyone who thinks these tracks are any
more dangerous than anywhere else into the race.
Seriously, I fail to see the problem. If, e.g., you're worried you might get
up into the T2 wall at Darlington, then just drive the turn differently
(take an apex on the inside). It's a bit harder on the tyres and it will
cost you a little momentum, but it's feasable.
Jan.
=---
"Bruce Kennewell" wrote...
> Ahh, yes, I see now.......experience of sim-racing.
> Righty-oh.
Exactly... I have been doing it for 9 years now and I happen to be good at
it. I make no excuses for that, a 4 handicap golfer wouldn't either.
Jan.
=---
"Scott B. Husted" wrote...
> You should just get Tyler Hudson to hold a class on how
> to type chat and drive at the same time. He's mastered
> the art of typing out novels in the middle of a race at
> even short tracks and road courses. <VBG>
I was in a GPL league where this one guy would give running commentary on
his on-track battles... highly annoying, actually, but amazing.
Jan.
=---
Bruce Kennewell wrote:
> Mate, my problem doesn't stem from the fact that there are rules. Rules are
> essential for an orderly and harmonious society.
> I have a difficulty in accepting autocratic behaviour in what is essentially
> a democratic co-operative, however.
>
> And yes, Jan, no matter what slant you place on it, it is *still* a game.
Yep, just like football, cricket, rugby...
John Simmons wrote:
Hehe, Dave will think you're being serious, no doubt!
Gerry
Quoted text (55 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > >>John Simmons wrote: >> >>>In article <[email hidden]>, >>>[email hidden] says... >>> >>> >>>>Eldred controls the server that he volunteered to let us use for our ras >>>>races. >>> >>> >>>True. >>> >>> >>> >>>>Eldred needs to step in now and tell us once and for all if John is >>>>now controlling RASCAR because Eldred let's him. >>> >>> >>>And I've asked Eldred through email a couple of questions. >>> >>> >>> >>>>John certainly *thinks* he has taken control of RASCAR. >>>> >>>>Is this true or not? >>> >>> >>>Not. I won't truly have contol of RASCAR until Eldred's dead and >>>rotting corpse is lying at my feet. >>> >>>I don't see that happening any timne soon. >> >>What about if he was ill, and couldn't speak or wee by himself? >> >> > > Let me think about that for a while... > > > Would I take advantage of a cripples inability to defent himself (or > wee on his own)? > > Hmmmmm.... > > > > > > > Yeah. He'd be toast. > > :)(raises hand)
In article <U6C1b.11341$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Quoted text (26 lines)
> But your not doing that anymore now are you bud :) > So my question would be, who is doing that now? > > :) > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3f46c48a$[email hidden]... > > > In all fairness, > > I was the one that setup, designed and maintained the website... After each > > race I'd download the replay and results of Eldreds server, upload them to > > ours, write a little something, and upload/post new addidtions to the roster > > and carset. > > > > All John really did was painting people's cars or telling them how to paint > > them (according to his wishes - although they actually happend to be close > > to mine - this time. :o)) > > > > >In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
And to be more specific, Mitch, never once did I say
"If you talk about a race after sunday you get penalized"
I said you have until Tuesday at 9pm central to get it out of your
system. How many times to I have to repeat myself before everybody
understands that?
I also never claimed it would make the racing better. But if
nobody's talking about the last race, then they're all thinking and
talking about the next race. Hopefully, the racing getting better
will be a slight side-effect of not hanging onto pointless verbal
sparring for two or three weeks.
Quoted text (14 lines)
> In article <sIz1b.4226$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Maybe my grammer is bad or Im not getting my thoughts across correctly but I > >was one of the first guys to say we needed a few rules. It's gone way > >beyond that now. This morning I see a post that said "If you talk about a > >race after sunday you get penalized" or something to that effect. Do you > >honestly think thats a rule "to make the racing better"? > > Not at all. It doesn't do a damn thing for the racing. But it eliminates(or > lessens) the BS wars we've had here in the past. > > Eldred >In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
He's just looking for something to snipe at me for.
Quoted text (12 lines)
> In article <3f46c240$[email hidden]>, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> > writes: > > >> Colin doesn't often have time to race with us, but being a legacy > >> RASCAR driver of considerable skill, he will always have a spot in > >> RASCAR. > > > >Funny how rules apply differently to different people eh?.... > > How's that? He's said that all the drivers who quit were welcome to come back > at a later date. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you mean, though... >In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Well, it could also be turned into a DNQ black flag, and that's
probably the best route to take since a suspension would be kinda
extreme. I originally wanted to make it a slightly stuiffer penalty,
but it doesn't make much sense to take an off-track penalty and turn
it into a more heavily penalitzed result.
> To be honest, currently a stop and go would not be that big a penalty for
> me, back marker that I am :)
Well the idea is to keep people from doing it. Repeatedly breaking
the rules is liable to get someone booted from the league.
> I have been doing everything I can to get this damn computer to run NR2K3
> better and no luck. I do not know when I will be able to race online with
> the group again but right now there is just no way.
> Don't drop me from the roster though, not yet.
> I will likely log in and observe the race, Is there anyway to watch the race
> without picking a specific car to follow?
You won't be dropped. Did you see my reply on why your fps may have
dropped and fixing how to it?
> I also asked this in the forum but got no response, how would one view the
> chat log? I have my game set to save it but do not know how to view it. I
> have looked in all my game folders and do not see anything that looks like a
> viewable log.
The chat log thing is only on the server side I believe.
> And just to stick to my guns and not be a hypocrite, I still believe that
> restricting comments either in content or timeframe is wrong. This being
> the viewpoint of a spoiled American who is accustomed to saying whatever the
> h*ll he wants whenever he wants <G>.
Content isn't restricted beyond going "too far" (examples of going
"too far" were posted on the forum). The timeframe thing is
reasonable and I hope that it moves things along.
Quoted text (14 lines)
> > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, > > [email hidden] says... > > > > > > I am pretty sure I said it that way in the forum too Sean. > > Well now, aren't I an ass! For whatever reason, and you said it this way in > your post in this thread, I thought it would be a one race suspension. > John typed > "If discussions continued beyond that time-frame, each > person guilty of contributing to the discussion would be penalized > with a one-race suspension"In article <ojC1b.11344$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
I watch replays in spectator mode when I want to see a lot of cars at
once.
I think he means the chat log that is saved when the race is over. I
*think* that only the server can save the chat log, but I'm not sure.
Quoted text (22 lines)
> You can watch a race full screen thru the replay, live, as if you were watching > one offline, after the race, with all the same features. > Just don't park it on the speedway, thanks. > :) > > To follow the chat log, you have to exit the replay screen itself, but you can > still watch it. Just press CHAT. > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > "McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I will likely log in and observe the race, Is there anyway to watch the race > > without picking a specific car to follow? > > I also asked this in the forum but got no response, how would one view the > > chat log? > > >In article <5QC1b.679$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
> I think the source of the problem is when rules reach that point that people
> are being told what they can discuss, when and where...and when those rules
> are being imposed by someone who clearly relishes the role of imposing
> rules.
I never said that they couldn't discuss the races. I just put a time
limit on it, and a reasonable time limit at that.
Marc, the rules were in place BEFORE the season started. They HAVE
NOT changed where racing is concerned. They have been clarified to
make sure peoiple understand the spirit of the rule. With the
extreme number of cautions we have, a penalty system was obviously
needed. After proposing a system that would result in race
suspensions, and then finding out that it would not result in race
suspensions, the idea was scrapped. A new idea is now in force that
does not result in race suspensions unless the rules are repeatedly
broken, but that forces the driver to start in the back during his
next race. That means he's still racing. The rules aren't that
strict, and when you get right down to it, their damn easy to
remember.
If they drive according to the rules, they won't even notice that the
rules exist. No jumping the start, no racing on the apron, no on-
track berating/threats/accusations, and don't do generally stupid
shit on the track (and keep the manual chat to a minimum). How is
that "strict"?
Quoted text (9 lines)
> John seems to me to be a similar type of person. Competent. Hard working. > Knowledgeable. Socially inept. Rules freak. It is up to RASCAR members to > decide whether the benefits outweigh the costs in having someone of that > nature "running" the operation. Because John is 100% convinced that a > "league" has to be run with these strict rules, there will be no compromise. > Like "real life," the majority won't want to get involved---just keep their > heads down and hope they can keep consuming/playing/etc. There will be the > tiny minority of vocal opponents (Mitch and DGF). There are those who > agree with the vocal opponents, but who can't bring themselves to be vocal.Quoted text (7 lines)
> Solution that hopefully all can agree to: Members should express their views > to the server owner (Eldred...and maybe John, too, if he also owns one that > could be used) as to what general level and aspect of rules they would like > used and enforced. Just keep it at the broad level, with topics like > flags/penalties; foul language; chatting during races; freedom of > discussion/expression outside the confines of a race; civility of treatment > amongst members/admins; etc."Tim" said:
> But your not doing that anymore now are you bud :)
> So my question would be, who is doing that now?
Now - is a completely different story.
I was merely pointing out that he wasn't the only one that had put a lot of
spare time into this..
And who know's - had things been handled a bit differently - I might still
be doing it....
--
ed_
"EldredP" said:
> >Funny how rules apply differently to different people eh?....
>
> How's that? He's said that all the drivers who quit were welcome to comeback
> at a later date. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you mean, though...
The way I see it... some seem to be told "you don't race much - we'll
remove you now and reinstate you later" - while others are told " hey I like
you! - you have a spot here forever."
Might just be me though....
--
eD_
"Mitch_A" said:
> Thanks for the offer Ed! What time zone and at what time? I dont thinkI'd
> be able so early in the day -8 gmt but I can get an extended lunch hour
> occasionally <vbg>.
I don't know yet Mitch but I hope we'll somewhere around 9-10 pm CET (8-9pm
GMT)
I'll make an announcement in due time.
--
eD_
"John Simmons" said:
> The chat log thing is only on the server side I believe.
No it's not.
Everyone can log all their online races if they like. There's a setting for
it in the player.ini file.
log_chat_to_file=1 ; Log chat pad to a file
--
ed_
In article <[email hidden]>, John
Simmons <[email hidden]> writes
But by whom will it be changed? Just you John? And the underlying
concern here is that you can do it because 'you can'. There may be 19
others saying 'We don't want or need a rule like that!', but there is a
sense at the moment that their say counts for nothing.
Those who may have felt part of an evolving series and the way it grew
and progressed have now becoming helpless in that evolution. If you
feel like an integral part of something you are more likely to put
yourself out on a limb for it. When that feeling of community gets
taken away then those feeling goes with it and that is what is eating
away at RASCAR at the moment, I feel.
--
Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77
Quoted text (8 lines)
>No, it's NOT a moot point. I could have just started doing it without >a warning. Afterall, the rules page states the following: > >"The following rule set is a living thing, and can change from day to >day. It is up to you to stay informed, so before each race, I suggest >that you preview the following to make sure something hasn't been >added, changed, or deleted." >
> I never said that they couldn't discuss the races. I just put a time
> limit on it, and a reasonable time limit at that.
The distinction is lost on most people who live in places where free speech
is valued and has been fought for with ancestors' blood. I think that rules
that relate to the topic at hand are more useful than offensive general
behaviour-modification social engineering edicts. Who gives a flying fu**
whether people discuss a race for 10 years after-the-fact if there was
something in that race worth discussing (or arguing about). It is none of
your business or mine. What is your business is whether people are
disrupting a race yapping about some incident from the preveious week(s).
That disrupts the current race (which by definition is supposed to be the
priority for everyone), is rude, and therefore there should be rules
preventing the *disruption* not the discussion. And of course, disruption
could come from discussing all manner of things, not just last week's race,
so a rule about avoiding disruptive behaviour would actually be useful and
would not be offensive. If you already have a rule about disruptions, then
the rule about discussions is redundant and, since it is offensive, it would
be better to drop it.
I honestly think that if the rules are clearly aimed at maintaining the
appropriate racing environment when the race is occurring--and that the
average person can easily understand how each rule applies--there won't be
any conflict. How many people are complaining about the no driving on the
apron or no jumping the start rules? I am going to suppose none, because
there isn't any unreasonableness to be found in those rules or in anyone's
peculiar interpretation of the rule.
Assuming any RASCAR people are still reading this thread at this point, I
would appreciate some feedback as to whether ensuring that the rules are
related to the racing environment-only would help clear up this mess.
Thanks,
Marc
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]...
> Well I guess Im the only one that has the balls to stand up to John (and
> Eldred though hes a silent partner). This is getting ridiculous.Penalties
> for nearly anything and everything. <snip>
Don't you guy's have a forum/web page or something ? Just put up a vote for
any rules that you want implemented ..How hard can this be ?
Na, RAS is typically their forum it seems.
"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bi7tgu$68412$[email hidden]...
for
> any rules that you want implemented ..How hard can this be ?
>
>
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]... > > Well I guess Im the only one that has the balls to stand up to John (and > > Eldred though hes a silent partner). This is getting ridiculous. > Penalties > > for nearly anything and everything. <snip> > > Don't you guy's have a forum/web page or something ? Just put up a voteredTed wrote:
What voting system?
Quoted text (14 lines)
> "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]... > >>Well I guess Im the only one that has the balls to stand up to John (and >>Eldred though hes a silent partner). This is getting ridiculous. > > Penalties > >>for nearly anything and everything. <snip> > > > Don't you guy's have a forum/web page or something ? Just put up a vote for > any rules that you want implemented ..How hard can this be ? >I think that one comment right there just summarized why you are having the
problems that you are having in the league
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:MPG.19b097aa931962d8989a19@news-> You can't convince me.
And those leagues are losing members by the truckload.
Community is what simracing is all about. Simracers LOVE to go back and
talk about the past (even if it was only 2 weeks ago). It does not cause
any harm...
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (12 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, William Bradshaw > <[email hidden]> writes: > > I *have* seen leagues that forbade public discussion of incidents before. > Don't think that John was the first to think that up... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.I think John summed it up best when he said in an earlier message
"You can't convince me"
"William Bradshaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (19 lines)
> John Simmons wrote: > > > Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I > > have to put up with whiners. > > > > That's easy to say when you're in charge. You shouldn't forget that the > opposite train of thought is also true: > > "Right now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that we, > the drivers, have to put up with John Simmons' rules that we, the > drivers, don't agree with." > > People "whine" for a reason, Mr. Simmons. Go ahead and ignore them. > Refuse to compromise. Both you and I know that RASCAR will not last > forever. So, enjoy the ego trip. > > -Will >In article <Oy4IECAyL3R$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Well, in this instance, everyone is complaining about the extreme
number of cautions. The cautions we are experiencing are caused by
lack of practice, over-aggressive driving, and just plain stupid shit
being done at other racers' expense.
A number of people want cautions turned off. A few think we should
stop racing back to the caution. A few think we shouldn't allow
passing before the backstretch. A couple want single-file restarts.
First, I think that as low as the realism aspect alreay is in the
sim, I don't feel that adding artificial racing rules is the answer,
is desrieable. Second, changing the way we race is only going to mask
the root cause of the problem instead of fixing it. Only practice,
and driving smart are going to fix the problem.
Our rules are almost identical to last season, and they've been the
same all season so far as far as racing is concerned.
My personal opinion is that people are pissed off for a couple of
reasons:
1) They mistakenly think that the *proposed* rules from a few weeks
ago have become the league rules. This is simply not true, since
clicking the RULES link on the web page leads to the same rules we
were using before proposed rules were even brought up.
2) They assume that the rules will be so strictly enforced that there
will be no room for interpretation by anyone. Again, this is simply
not true, and it is wholly unfair to make that assumption.
3) They assume that the rules will actually inhibit racing. Again,
this is simply not true, and it's an unfair assumption to make since
we haven't even raced under the new penalty system.
4) They assume I'm not listending to their comments or considering
them in the decision making process. This particular group of people
are simply pissed off at me for other un-related reasons. If they
would open their eyes, they'd realize that I'm suggesting a number of
different things, changing my mind, pruning and combining to make a
better set of rules that promote cleaner driving. Instead, they've
got it in their minds that nothing I come up with will be good
enough. To that rather vocal, and rather small minority that won't
just shut-the-fuck-up and try the new ideas out, I say piss off. I
recognize that some ideas just won't work, and I've demonstrated my
ability to adapt and re-assess my position, while this group won't
give the current process a snowball's chance in hell chance of
succeeding.
> Those who may have felt part of an evolving series and the way it grew
> and progressed have now becoming helpless in that evolution. If you
> feel like an integral part of something you are more likely to put
> yourself out on a limb for it. When that feeling of community gets
> taken away then those feeling goes with it and that is what is eating
> away at RASCAR at the moment, I feel.
People who are willing to work patiently to find the one true path
with me are encouraged to keep making suggestions. People that are
just pissed off at me and are taking it out on everyone else by
trying to stir up some anarchy and insist that everyone take sides
are going to be ignored. If they play nice, I'll play nice.
You gotta ask yourself - if they hate everything as much as they
indicate, why are they still racing in the league? Why don't they
find another league to run in that has a rule set that is more
philosophically aligned with their own ideals?
And if you think the noise-level is high now, just wait until I do my
first race analysis.
So, to answer your original question, it's changed by me as the
league evolves (to use your own term). Right now, our racing has all
the focus and organization of a department store running a sale on
ladies hats. That's gonna change, like right now.
Quoted text (15 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, John > Simmons <[email hidden]> writes > >No, it's NOT a moot point. I could have just started doing it without > >a warning. Afterall, the rules page states the following: > > > >"The following rule set is a living thing, and can change from day to > >day. It is up to you to stay informed, so before each race, I suggest > >that you preview the following to make sure something hasn't been > >added, changed, or deleted." > > > > But by whom will it be changed? Just you John? And the underlying > concern here is that you can do it because 'you can'. There may be 19 > others saying 'We don't want or need a rule like that!', but there is a > sense at the moment that their say counts for nothing.
"> > Penalties
> >
> >>for nearly anything and everything. <snip>
> >
> >
> > Don't you guy's have a forum/web page or something ? Just put up a votefor
> > any rules that you want implemented ..How hard can this be ?
> >
>
> What voting system?
>A poll vote. You know the type.Just click the magic circle to register your
vote.
eg http://www.bhmotorsports.com/ the weekly poll.
In article <yKK1b.743$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
It's a matter of style of management. If someone wants to continue
the bullshit in a more private forum (email, PM, whatever), I
couldn't really give a rat's ass. HOWEVER, since he forum is a RASCAR
forum, and is considered property of the league (for lack of a better
term), the discusion of the last race stops COMPLETELY in the RASCAR
forum and by Tuesday at 9pm central. Period. End of topic.
For the record, I included r.a.s in the time-limit out of an honest
desire to keep this kind of long-winded bullshit from happening in
r.a.s. Just because we started the group here, doesn't mean we can
assault all non-RASCAR people with endless bickering, finger-pointing
and just plain childish bullshit concerning a race that happen
anywhere from one week to one year in the past.
I've tried to keep the RASCAR stuff focused on the forum instead of
here, but as you see it doesn't always work out.
Quoted text (36 lines)
> > > I never said that they couldn't discuss the races. I just put a time > > limit on it, and a reasonable time limit at that. > > The distinction is lost on most people who live in places where free speech > is valued and has been fought for with ancestors' blood. I think that rules > that relate to the topic at hand are more useful than offensive general > behaviour-modification social engineering edicts. Who gives a flying fu** > whether people discuss a race for 10 years after-the-fact if there was > something in that race worth discussing (or arguing about). It is none of > your business or mine. What is your business is whether people are > disrupting a race yapping about some incident from the preveious week(s). > That disrupts the current race (which by definition is supposed to be the > priority for everyone), is rude, and therefore there should be rules > preventing the *disruption* not the discussion. And of course, disruption > could come from discussing all manner of things, not just last week's race, > so a rule about avoiding disruptive behaviour would actually be useful and > would not be offensive. If you already have a rule about disruptions, then > the rule about discussions is redundant and, since it is offensive, it would > be better to drop it. > > I honestly think that if the rules are clearly aimed at maintaining the > appropriate racing environment when the race is occurring--and that the > average person can easily understand how each rule applies--there won't be > any conflict. How many people are complaining about the no driving on the > apron or no jumping the start rules? I am going to suppose none, because > there isn't any unreasonableness to be found in those rules or in anyone's > peculiar interpretation of the rule. > > Assuming any RASCAR people are still reading this thread at this point, I > would appreciate some feedback as to whether ensuring that the rules are > related to the racing environment-only would help clear up this mess. > > Thanks, > > MarcIn article <6vL1b.235577$Ho3.30310@sccrnsc03>,
[email hidden] says...
They know my position of manual chatting, it's never changed, and
never even waivered. It also happens to be a position shared by MANY
other people in the online racing community.
But how absurd do you think it sounds when someone is worried about
being bored while driving around under caution, and I'm working
towards having fewer cautions?
You have to wonder about some folks' priorities, don't you...
-----------------------
Oh yeah, one last thing about the "chatting" issue. The rules say
that there should be no excessive chatting, and that they should only
chat by way of their auto-chat keys where the message is directly
related to their racing status. You know, things like "Pitting",
"Exiting pits", "Pass me low", and truly informative stuff like that.
While I don't see the need for it, and I don't personally use these
statements, "Thank you" and "sorry" are also easily assigned to auto-
chat keys, so they're okay too.
However, when people are typing like mad-men, important auto-chart
messages could be missed, confusion will most assuredly reign, wrecks
will happen, and we'll see three and a half days of
"I was pitting you moron"
exchanged with
"Why didn't you announce it then you idiot".
The no manual chat rule makes more sense to me than worrying about
whether some half-wit is bored during a freakin' caution.
I cannot be convinced that manual chat is a good or viable thing in
an online racing evnvironment.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> I think that one comment right there just summarized why you are having the > problems that you are having in the league > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:MPG.19b097aa931962d8989a19@news-> You can't convince me. >In article <XxL1b.235592$Ho3.29995@sccrnsc03>,
[email hidden] says...
> And those leagues are losing members by the truckload.
>
> Community is what simracing is all about. Simracers LOVE to go back and
> talk about the past (even if it was only 2 weeks ago). It does not cause
> any harm...
>
Talking about the past is fine as long as the past doesn't include
unwarranted bitching and moaning. There's been a few instances where
ex-IGPS members fondly remembered past incidents on the track and
just within the league itself.
Key words like "cornflakes", "Monaco", "Mosport", "Italians", "Nash",
"Rickard", and other weird little things bring smiles to the faces of
many (if not all) of the IGPS guys. But have you ever seen any of
them recount, draw out, or re-hash anything bad in the league? I
haven't, at least, not publicly. I guess the guy that ran it - I
think his name was John Simmons - wasn't run through a freakin' meat
grinder by a single one of them. And guess what, the rules were
modified a few times without any derisive bullshit following the
changes
The racing was great, within the context of not only GPL, but when
considered as part of the online racing scene in general at the time.
Granted the racing wasn't nearly as crowded in GPL as it is here, but
we had our moments. The Monaco finish in season 1 where the top 3
finishers were within one second of each other, and the pass I pulled
off on ZZ-Bush at Mosport was aboslutely butt-clenchingly cool.
There have been many more instances of great racing in RASCAR, but
when was the last time a bunch of RASCAR drivers just hung out
talking about the good stuff? Michigan was a great race for a lot of
us, but the arguments have ruined an otherwise pretty good race
memory for a lot of those involved.
Youre on to something here Cliff :)
"Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:wAL1b.234633$o%2.106939@sccrnsc02...
Quoted text (28 lines)
> I think John summed it up best when he said in an earlier message > > "You can't convince me" > > > "William Bradshaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > John Simmons wrote: > > > > > Righ now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that I > > > have to put up with whiners. > > > > > > > That's easy to say when you're in charge. You shouldn't forget that the > > opposite train of thought is also true: > > > > "Right now, the only thing that sucks about RASCAR right now is that we, > > the drivers, have to put up with John Simmons' rules that we, the > > drivers, don't agree with." > > > > People "whine" for a reason, Mr. Simmons. Go ahead and ignore them. > > Refuse to compromise. Both you and I know that RASCAR will not last > > forever. So, enjoy the ego trip. > > > > -Will > > > >You RAN Ed out of town and then VOLUNTEERED to take it over. No one asked
you Simmons!
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
each
> > > race I'd download the replay and results of Eldreds server, uploadthem to
> > > ours, write a little something, and upload/post new addidtions to theroster
> > > and carset.
> > >
> > > All John really did was painting people's cars or telling them how topaint
> > > them (according to his wishes - although they actually happend to beclose
> > > to mine - this time. :o))
> > >
> >
> >
> >
Quoted text (19 lines)
> (raises hand) > > In article <U6C1b.11341$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > But your not doing that anymore now are you bud :) > > So my question would be, who is doing that now? > > > > :) > > > > -- > > Tim White > > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > > > > "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3f46c48a$[email hidden]... > > > > > In all fairness, > > > I was the one that setup, designed and maintained the website... AfterMitch, you really should choose your words more carefully. By your
statement, you're implying that I asked Ed to leave (or even more
ominous, booted him forcefully from the league).
He actually quit with absolutely no warning to either me or Eldred.
In fact, our first indicatiuon that he was quitting was the news page
on the RASCAR web site.
Eldred wasn't acting like he wanted to take over the job of website
maintenance, so I did. I had to download allthe website files and go
through them to make sure I was oriented with the way Ed had set
everyting up.
The only changes I made were minor changes to the appearance of some
of the pages, and some re-formatting of the HTML source to accomodate
my desire to manually edit the files. Afterall, web page editing
programs insert way too much garbage in the resulting HTML. It was in
my way and served no useful or sytactical purpose.
lastly, while I was there, I cleaned a little dead wood out of the
roster. And for your information, when Colin joined he stated up
front that he wasn't going to be able to make a lot of the races
because of schedule conflicts. If he was any less practiced as a
racer, I would have refused his application, but he actually helped
get us started, and being a legacy driver, he was owed a bit of extra
leeway.
I extended a less noticeable leeway where car numbers were concerned
for this season. Everyone that raced last season was allowed first
chjoice of their old number. I certainly didn't HAVE to do that
either.
Every time you try to berate me Mitch, you look more like an
instigator than someone who has a valid complaint or comment to make.
of course, that's just my view.
In article <rqM1b.924$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Quoted text (14 lines)
> You RAN Ed out of town and then VOLUNTEERED to take it over. No one asked > you Simmons! > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > (raises hand) > > > > In article <U6C1b.11341$[email hidden]>, > > [email hidden] says... > > > But your not doing that anymore now are you bud :) > > > So my question would be, who is doing that now? > > > > > > :)You know my position on racing back to the yellow JS. But "that aint ever
going to happen in any league I run", your words exactly. And as Ive said,
who the F*&k are you? You VOLUNTEERED for anything you do in RASCAR.
Somehow youve turned this into YOUR own self appointement as RASCAR
president.
Eldred VOLUNTEERED a server for RASCAR's use. When he volunteered the
server it wasnt under ANY stipulations. Now we have a decent group of
drivers but instead of making reasonable suggestions we now have Johns way
or the highway.
Mitch
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (37 lines)
>> They know my position of manual chatting, it's never changed, and > never even waivered. It also happens to be a position shared by MANY > other people in the online racing community. > > But how absurd do you think it sounds when someone is worried about > being bored while driving around under caution, and I'm working > towards having fewer cautions? > > You have to wonder about some folks' priorities, don't you... > > ----------------------- > > Oh yeah, one last thing about the "chatting" issue. The rules say > that there should be no excessive chatting, and that they should only > chat by way of their auto-chat keys where the message is directly > related to their racing status. You know, things like "Pitting", > "Exiting pits", "Pass me low", and truly informative stuff like that. > While I don't see the need for it, and I don't personally use these > statements, "Thank you" and "sorry" are also easily assigned to auto- > chat keys, so they're okay too. > > However, when people are typing like mad-men, important auto-chart > messages could be missed, confusion will most assuredly reign, wrecks > will happen, and we'll see three and a half days of > > "I was pitting you moron" > > exchanged with > > "Why didn't you announce it then you idiot". > > The no manual chat rule makes more sense to me than worrying about > whether some half-wit is bored during a freakin' caution. > > I cannot be convinced that manual chat is a good or viable thing in > an online racing evnvironment. >And I've listened to the reasonable drivers making suggestions.
Do you need a sign directing you to the on-ramp Mitch?
In article <pAM1b.927$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
>
> Now we have a decent group of
> drivers but instead of making reasonable suggestions we now have Johns way
> or the highway.
>
You seem to be able to skip the important part of the thread consistently.
Again, who the F*&* are you to make these decisions? KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK, YOU
VOLUNTEERED for anything youre doing.
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
way
> > or the highway.
> >
Quoted text (10 lines)
> And I've listened to the reasonable drivers making suggestions. > > Do you need a sign directing you to the on-ramp Mitch? > > > In article <pAM1b.927$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > > > Now we have a decent group of > > drivers but instead of making reasonable suggestions we now have JohnsAt what point have I berated you?
Do I think you have the management skills to run RASCAR with a fair even
hand, NO WAY JOSE!
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
asked
Quoted text (41 lines)
> Mitch, you really should choose your words more carefully. By your > statement, you're implying that I asked Ed to leave (or even more > ominous, booted him forcefully from the league). > > He actually quit with absolutely no warning to either me or Eldred. > In fact, our first indicatiuon that he was quitting was the news page > on the RASCAR web site. > > Eldred wasn't acting like he wanted to take over the job of website > maintenance, so I did. I had to download allthe website files and go > through them to make sure I was oriented with the way Ed had set > everyting up. > > The only changes I made were minor changes to the appearance of some > of the pages, and some re-formatting of the HTML source to accomodate > my desire to manually edit the files. Afterall, web page editing > programs insert way too much garbage in the resulting HTML. It was in > my way and served no useful or sytactical purpose. > > lastly, while I was there, I cleaned a little dead wood out of the > roster. And for your information, when Colin joined he stated up > front that he wasn't going to be able to make a lot of the races > because of schedule conflicts. If he was any less practiced as a > racer, I would have refused his application, but he actually helped > get us started, and being a legacy driver, he was owed a bit of extra > leeway. > > I extended a less noticeable leeway where car numbers were concerned > for this season. Everyone that raced last season was allowed first > chjoice of their old number. I certainly didn't HAVE to do that > either. > > Every time you try to berate me Mitch, you look more like an > instigator than someone who has a valid complaint or comment to make. > of course, that's just my view. > > > > In article <rqM1b.924$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > You RAN Ed out of town and then VOLUNTEERED to take it over. No oneQuoted text (13 lines)
> > you Simmons! > > > > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > (raises hand) > > > > > > In article <U6C1b.11341$[email hidden]>, > > > [email hidden] says... > > > > But your not doing that anymore now are you bud :) > > > > So my question would be, who is doing that now? > > > > > > > > :)>But how absurd do you think it sounds when someone is worried about
>being bored while driving around under caution, and I'm working
>towards having fewer cautions?
No chat under caution is going to prevent more cautions??
>You have to wonder about some folks' priorities, don't you...
Yes...one does. Let's see... so far I'm a moron, absurd and my priorities need
help. Do you wonder why some find you abrasive?
Youre kidding right Jan?
Nothing wrong with towing the company line, when their is a COMPANY :)
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4WG1b.82470$[email hidden]...
> "Mitch_A" wrote...
> > Would ANY rule make either of these track any more
> > or less dangerous?
>
> I can only think of one: not allowing anyone who thinks these tracks areany
> more dangerous than anywhere else into the race.
>
> Seriously, I fail to see the problem. If, e.g., you're worried you mightget
Quoted text (8 lines)
> up into the T2 wall at Darlington, then just drive the turn differently > (take an apex on the inside). It's a bit harder on the tyres and it will > cost you a little momentum, but it's feasable. > > Jan. > =--- > >"Mitch_A" wrote...
> Youre kidding right Jan?
No I'm not. People who claim a particular track is more difficult and
dangerous than others are already lining up their excuses for messing up,
rather than working out how they can lap the track safely and consistently.
> Nothing wrong with towing the company line, when their is a COMPANY :)
Huh?
Jan.
=---
In article <XxL1b.235592$Ho3.29995@sccrnsc03>, "Cliff Roman"
<[email hidden]> writes:
No, the leagues I was referring to are still running, AFAIK. Maybe I just
stated it wrong. No public *arguments* about incidents. Discussion is good,
healthy, and even fun. Public screaming matches are not. I think *that* is
what John is trying to avoid.
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (16 lines)
>And those leagues are losing members by the truckload. > >Community is what simracing is all about. Simracers LOVE to go back and >talk about the past (even if it was only 2 weeks ago). It does not cause >any harm... > > > >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> In article <[email hidden]>, William Bradshaw >> <[email hidden]> writes: > >> >> I *have* seen leagues that forbade public discussion of incidents before. >> Don't think that John was the first to think that up...In article <[email hidden]>, John Simmons
<[email hidden]> writes:
>They know my position of manual chatting, it's never changed, and
>never even waivered. It also happens to be a position shared by MANY
>other people in the online racing community.
...including the other league admin...<g>
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <IHM1b.929$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>You seem to be able to skip the important part of the thread consistently.
>Again, who the F*&* are you to make these decisions? KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK, YOU
>VOLUNTEERED for anything youre doing.
Volunteered or elected, does it matter? John stepped down last season, and I
don't remember anyone else stepping up to the plate to take his spot. Ed
helped out, but I don't remember if he was already helping when John quit.
Since I didn't have the experience to run a league at the time, I asked him to
reconsider. I also didn't have the time. I could probably do it myself, but
it wouldn't be as thorough as it is now.
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Thats just a lot of psychological babble :) I can run say Darlington just
fine alone. Add cars on three sides of T3-4 and tell me Darlington isnt
more difficult than say Michigan with cars on three sides?.
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:fZM1b.83115$[email hidden]...
> "Mitch_A" wrote...
> > Youre kidding right Jan?
>
> No I'm not. People who claim a particular track is more difficult and
> dangerous than others are already lining up their excuses for messing up,
> rather than working out how they can lap the track safely andconsistently.
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > > Nothing wrong with towing the company line, when their is a COMPANY :) > > Huh? > > Jan. > =--- > >Funny Larry how its all the ex-military that feel this way so vehemently
about this so-called rule. If I wasnt so passionate about RASCAR I'd of
just bailed long ago.
"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:w2N1b.9890$Go4.5947@lakeread01...
> Frankly, I'll talk about what I want, to who I want, when I want. No rule
> is going to alter my expression of free speech, period. I didn't speed 11
> years in the military protecting people's basic rights to give up my ownfor
Quoted text (7 lines)
> stupid reasons. > > And that's all I have to say about that. > > Larry > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in messageFrankly, I'll talk about what I want, to who I want, when I want. No rule
is going to alter my expression of free speech, period. I didn't speed 11
years in the military protecting people's basic rights to give up my own for
stupid reasons.
And that's all I have to say about that.
Larry
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]...
> Well I guess Im the only one that has the balls to stand up to John (and
> Eldred though hes a silent partner). This is getting ridiculous.Penalties
> for nearly anything and everything. If JS dont like it boom, penalty.Some
after
> Pocoho just so he could usurp and consolidate all RASCAR decisions onto
> himself. (And no Im not a conspiracy theorist) The races have improved
> drastically since Pocoho without any new rules in place.
>
> Yea I do want a couple rules to make the racing better. Even moreimportant
> is the quality of drivers. We need some kind of practice race/tryout race
> so we dont end up with some rook causing havoc over and over.
>
> Another suggestion is let JS have the RASCAR ARCA series for those thatwish
> to participate and leave RASCAR alone for those that wish to run in anopen
> FUN/RESPECTFUL environment using the DEFAULT fast setups on NR2003 tracks
> (not converted tracks except for fun of course). Just as the original
> RASCAR Charter prescribed.
>
> I know I know, JS has said it hundreds of times. "If ya dont like itquit".
> How about if JS dont like it he quits?
>
> Am I alone in my thinking here? We've already lost some great guys that
> just got fed up. Ed come back and fight with me for the good of RASCAR.
>
> I cant imagine Im the only RASCAR driver that feels this way? If I amthen
> its time for me to go back to Onlineracin.nets pay to play and avoid this
> BS.
>
> Dammit Im supposed to be working not leading some kind of RASCARrevolution.
> IMO someone has to or RASCAR as we know is gone.
>
> Just to be sure Im not being mis-interpreted. I fully appreciateEVERYTHING
> Eldred and John have done in RASCAR to this point. Its just gone way too
> far now and needs to be reigned in.
>
> Mitch
>
>
Quoted text (18 lines)
> of his retarded rules have nothing at all to do with "better racing" and > much more to do with JSs ego. The latest has just gone way over the line, > AGAIN. If you comment on anything about a previous race after Sunday you > will be penalized. Is he fn kidding? This is a PUBLIC FNG newsgroup! > Sadly no he isn't kidding. He's taking his self-empowered (Obsessive > compulsive) presidency way too far. He and Eldred both VOLUNTEERED to do > what they do. Eldred gives us a server to run on, and JS took care of the > cars roster/cars ect. No where during the initial conversation did anyone > say anything about either taking CONTROL of RASCAR or saturating us with > moronic rules, let alone creating a Nazi totalitarian RASCAR. The ONLY > person that has ANY say is Eldred, period and he hasnt said a word about > this (and yes Ive questioned him). Looking through the roster from the > beginning of RASCAR I see very few original drivers. To the new guys of > course this is ok as they really dont know any better. > > My take is if John wants to run his OWN series then go create it yourself > dont come here and just TAKE charge like some 5'1" wannabee dictator. > Sometimes I really think JS wanted the racing to get as bad as it didIn article <w2N1b.9890$Go4.5947@lakeread01>, [email hidden] says...
Now hold on a minute. I think I'm being fairly rational and even
reasonable in my desire to keep the noise level to a minimum. I
recommend that you read EVERYTHING I've said on the subject before
you go assuming I'm restricting what you say and to whom.
Final word - if we didn't have the constant mindless bickering about
long-past racing incidents by just a few individuals, I wouldn't have
even come up with the time-limit idea. So put that on your cracker
and chew on it for a while.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Frankly, I'll talk about what I want, to who I want, when I want. No rule > is going to alter my expression of free speech, period. I didn't speed 11 > years in the military protecting people's basic rights to give up my own for > stupid reasons. > > And that's all I have to say about that. >Wow, now that's representative of "all the ex-military". I served in
the Gulf of Tonkin on the USS Turner Joy. I was getting shot at
before many of you were even born. I guess your "all the ex-
military" assumption just got pretty much blown out of the water...
In article <E7N1b.969$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
Quoted text (20 lines)
> Funny Larry how its all the ex-military that feel this way so vehemently > about this so-called rule. If I wasnt so passionate about RASCAR I'd of > just bailed long ago. > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:w2N1b.9890$Go4.5947@lakeread01... > > Frankly, I'll talk about what I want, to who I want, when I want. No rule > > is going to alter my expression of free speech, period. I didn't speed 11 > > years in the military protecting people's basic rights to give up my own > for > > stupid reasons. > > > > And that's all I have to say about that. > > > > Larry > > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:48:26 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote:
I am not in RASCAR and am enjoying the bickering, finger pointing and
childish bullshit. People can always ignore the thread if it doesn't
interest them.
Andrew.
Quoted text (7 lines)
>For the record, I included r.a.s in the time-limit out of an honest >desire to keep this kind of long-winded bullshit from happening in >r.a.s. Just because we started the group here, doesn't mean we can >assault all non-RASCAR people with endless bickering, finger-pointing >and just plain childish bullshit concerning a race that happen >anywhere from one week to one year in the past. >In article <[email hidden]>, aep@nospam
says...
I know. There's a good number of people that know quality
entertainment when they see it. At the same time, there are others
who appreciate a good show as long as it doesn't turn into one of
those annoying 12-part mini-series.
I am trying to strike a happy balance.
Quoted text (15 lines)
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:48:26 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >For the record, I included r.a.s in the time-limit out of an honest > >desire to keep this kind of long-winded bullshit from happening in > >r.a.s. Just because we started the group here, doesn't mean we can > >assault all non-RASCAR people with endless bickering, finger-pointing > >and just plain childish bullshit concerning a race that happen > >anywhere from one week to one year in the past. > > > I am not in RASCAR and am enjoying the bickering, finger pointing and > childish bullshit. People can always ignore the thread if it doesn't > interest them. > > Andrew. >You know as well as I do the Navy isnt the military :)) Can anyone say "Gay
cruise ships" hehe just kidding dont get them panties in a wad :)
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Wow, now that's representative of "all the ex-military". I served in
> the Gulf of Tonkin on the USS Turner Joy. I was getting shot at
> before many of you were even born. I guess your "all the ex-
> military" assumption just got pretty much blown out of the water...
>
>
Geez, when I brought up last years bristol race it was from a challenge YOU
made for anyone to find anything youve done un-sportsmanlike. Passing me
under yellow when I was obviously slowing to take the yellow flag was plain
ole vanilla un-sportsmanlike so I accepted your challenge. End of story.
Thats no reason for some insane rule cause John dont like it.
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > Final word - if we didn't have the
constant mindless bickering about
> long-past racing incidents by just a few individuals, I wouldn't have
> even come up with the time-limit idea. So put that on your cracker
> and chew on it for a while.
>
"Mitch_A" wrote...
> Thats just a lot of psychological babble :)
It's about attitude and it's about confidence in one's ability, so yes, it
has to with the psychology of racing. Is it "babble"? -No.
> I can run say Darlington just fine alone.
That's hardly realistic practise for a race there.
> Add cars on three sides of T3-4 and tell me Darlington isnt
> more difficult than say Michigan with cars on three sides?.
Firstly, there's only two sides on a car. They're labeled "left side" and
"right side", relative to the orientation of the driver. The other
extremities are called "front" and "rear" occording to the same definition.
But I assume you mean an arrangement like this:
3
1 2 4
#1 is not really in this situation unless he's moving significantly slower
than the others. I don't know if #3 can run high enough to avoid latency
contact with #2 and still stay with him. If #2 and #3 run to the end of the
turn together, #1 will pull out a little gap being able to use all the
track. It then depends on whether #2 or #3 gets off the corner better. If #2
gets to setup T1 first then #3 has to back off and hope #4 lets him slot in
(a similar situation arises if #3 can't stay with #2 through T3-T4). If #3
gets there 1st #2 (and #4) will have to back off a little to let #3 in
front.
If they don't "arrange themselves" they can continue side by side, but they
will be losing shedloads of time with reference to #1. The real loser here
is #4 who has to give in and lose time anyway as he cannot afford having the
other two running side by side ahead and losing him time. As long as all
participants hold their lines and anticipate eachother's moves correctly any
of these scenario's should go off without a hitch.
The only real thing that happens at Darlington as opposed to Michigan is
that if you misjudge keeping your distance with reference to another driver,
you can't drift out of line to correct that and still make it around the
turn relatively quickly. You have to leave yourself that extra margin for
error when following somebody "new" and you really have to slow down if
you're not running "the preferred line" through the turn. Does this require
more discipline? -A little. Is it slower and could you lose a lot of spots
if you get hung out? -Yes. Is it technically and any more difficult than on
any other track? -No, the limit is the limit.
Jan.
=---
In article <TIN1b.83217$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
> Firstly, there's only two sides on a car. They're labeled "left side" and
> "right side", relative to the orientation of the driver. The other
> extremities are called "front" and "rear" occording to the same definition.
>
I just checked the sim, and I don't see any such labels. Do I need to
install the patch to see them?
:)
"John Simmons" wrote...
> I just checked the sim, and I don't see any such
> labels. Do I need to install the patch to see them?
>
> :)
I hate it when an American tackles me on use of language.
Jan. ;-))
=---
You need to quit watchin Dr.Phil and watch a few more races at said tracks
me tinks ye over-analytical one :)
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:TIN1b.83217$[email hidden]...
definition.
the
> turn together, #1 will pull out a little gap being able to use all the
> track. It then depends on whether #2 or #3 gets off the corner better. If#2
> gets to setup T1 first then #3 has to back off and hope #4 lets him slotin
> (a similar situation arises if #3 can't stay with #2 through T3-T4). If #3
> gets there 1st #2 (and #4) will have to back off a little to let #3 in
> front.
>
> If they don't "arrange themselves" they can continue side by side, butthey
> will be losing shedloads of time with reference to #1. The real loser here
> is #4 who has to give in and lose time anyway as he cannot afford havingthe
> other two running side by side ahead and losing him time. As long as all
> participants hold their lines and anticipate eachother's moves correctlyany
> of these scenario's should go off without a hitch.
>
> The only real thing that happens at Darlington as opposed to Michigan is
> that if you misjudge keeping your distance with reference to anotherdriver,
> you can't drift out of line to correct that and still make it around the
> turn relatively quickly. You have to leave yourself that extra margin for
> error when following somebody "new" and you really have to slow down if
> you're not running "the preferred line" through the turn. Does thisrequire
> more discipline? -A little. Is it slower and could you lose a lot of spots
> if you get hung out? -Yes. Is it technically and any more difficult thanon
> any other track? -No, the limit is the limit.
>
> Jan.
> =---
>
>
Quoted text (16 lines)
> "Mitch_A" wrote... > > Thats just a lot of psychological babble :) > > It's about attitude and it's about confidence in one's ability, so yes, it > has to with the psychology of racing. Is it "babble"? -No. > > > I can run say Darlington just fine alone. > > That's hardly realistic practise for a race there. > > > Add cars on three sides of T3-4 and tell me Darlington isnt > > more difficult than say Michigan with cars on three sides?. > > Firstly, there's only two sides on a car. They're labeled "left side" and > "right side", relative to the orientation of the driver. The other > extremities are called "front" and "rear" occording to the sameQuoted text (9 lines)
> > But I assume you mean an arrangement like this: > > 3 > 1 2 4 > > #1 is not really in this situation unless he's moving significantly slower > than the others. I don't know if #3 can run high enough to avoid latency > contact with #2 and still stay with him. If #2 and #3 run to the end of
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Wow, now that's representative of "all the ex-military". I served in
> the Gulf of Tonkin on the USS Turner Joy. I was getting shot at
> before many of you were even born. I guess your "all the ex-
> military" assumption just got pretty much blown out of the water...
Yeah..Ok...
The only people shooting at you were your fellow village people.
(damn, I wish he hadn't killfiled me..this could have been top laughs)
"Mitch_A" wrote...
> You need to quit watchin Dr.Phil and watch a few
> more races at said tracks me tinks ye over-analytical
> one :)
They do show WC races over here, you know, and I've seen most of them since
1994.
I am also not being over analytical. I'm being as analytical as I need to be
so as to not be a rolling chicane in the races.
But, fine, don't think about it... pretend the race is not going to happen
until you actually have to go out and do it. Seeya at the back in the next
one, speedy.
Jan.
=---
Lets just say that John can vastly improve in the way he says things
There are much better ways to add a rule than to "Dictate" it as John seems
to do. Heck, I have seen him dictate 2-3 times already in this thread.
Surely John does not think that he is the only one that counts, surely he
does not think that his opinions and thoughts on what should be a rule are
the only ones that could possibly be correct. If he does not think that..
then maybe treating the other members of the league with a little respect
and taking their thoughts into consideration might be a good start.
Then again, maybe he does think he is the only one that could be correct.
If so, you see where the problem lies
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
cause
before.
> >> Don't think that John was the first to think that up...
>
> No, the leagues I was referring to are still running, AFAIK. Maybe I just
> stated it wrong. No public *arguments* about incidents. Discussion isgood,
> healthy, and even fun. Public screaming matches are not. I think *that*is
Quoted text (7 lines)
> In article <XxL1b.235592$Ho3.29995@sccrnsc03>, "Cliff Roman" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >And those leagues are losing members by the truckload. > > > >Community is what simracing is all about. Simracers LOVE to go back and > >talk about the past (even if it was only 2 weeks ago). It does notQuoted text (11 lines)
> >any harm... > > > > > > > >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> In article <[email hidden]>, William Bradshaw > >> <[email hidden]> writes: > > > >> > >> I *have* seen leagues that forbade public discussion of incidentsQuoted text (7 lines)
> what John is trying to avoid. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.I'm 100% positive that if Marc were running RASCAR, there wouldn't be any
problems right now.
David G Fisher
"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:yKK1b.743$[email hidden]...
>
> > I never said that they couldn't discuss the races. I just put a time
> > limit on it, and a reasonable time limit at that.
>
> The distinction is lost on most people who live in places where freespeech
> is valued and has been fought for with ancestors' blood. I think thatrules
race,
> so a rule about avoiding disruptive behaviour would actually be useful and
> would not be offensive. If you already have a rule about disruptions,then
> the rule about discussions is redundant and, since it is offensive, itwould
Quoted text (10 lines)
> that relate to the topic at hand are more useful than offensive general > behaviour-modification social engineering edicts. Who gives a flying fu** > whether people discuss a race for 10 years after-the-fact if there was > something in that race worth discussing (or arguing about). It is none of > your business or mine. What is your business is whether people are > disrupting a race yapping about some incident from the preveious week(s). > That disrupts the current race (which by definition is supposed to be the > priority for everyone), is rude, and therefore there should be rules > preventing the *disruption* not the discussion. And of course, disruption > could come from discussing all manner of things, not just last week'sQuoted text (19 lines)
> be better to drop it. > > I honestly think that if the rules are clearly aimed at maintaining the > appropriate racing environment when the race is occurring--and that the > average person can easily understand how each rule applies--there won't be > any conflict. How many people are complaining about the no driving on the > apron or no jumping the start rules? I am going to suppose none, because > there isn't any unreasonableness to be found in those rules or in anyone's > peculiar interpretation of the rule. > > Assuming any RASCAR people are still reading this thread at this point, I > would appreciate some feedback as to whether ensuring that the rules are > related to the racing environment-only would help clear up this mess. > > Thanks, > > Marc > >Idea? or Rule?
That is what is causing so many to get upset.. you do not come up with
ideas. You come up with hard "I will penalize you immediately" rules
Ideas would be another thing.. but that would require you to also allow
others to have input and some say in the direction the league takes.
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <w2N1b.9890$Go4.5947@lakeread01>, [email hidden] says...
> Final word - if we didn't have the constant mindless bickering about
> long-past racing incidents by just a few individuals, I wouldn't have
> even come up with the time-limit idea. So put that on your cracker
> and chew on it for a while.
>
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
speech
> > is valued and has been fought for with ancestors' blood. I think thatrules
> > that relate to the topic at hand are more useful than offensive general
> > behaviour-modification social engineering edicts. Who gives a flyingfu**
> > whether people discuss a race for 10 years after-the-fact if there was
> > something in that race worth discussing (or arguing about). It is noneof
> > your business or mine. What is your business is whether people are
> > disrupting a race yapping about some incident from the preveiousweek(s).
> > That disrupts the current race (which by definition is supposed to bethe
> > priority for everyone), is rude, and therefore there should be rules
> > preventing the *disruption* not the discussion. And of course,disruption
> > could come from discussing all manner of things, not just last week'srace,
> > so a rule about avoiding disruptive behaviour would actually be usefuland
> > would not be offensive. If you already have a rule about disruptions,then
> > the rule about discussions is redundant and, since it is offensive, itwould
> > be better to drop it.
> >
> > I honestly think that if the rules are clearly aimed at maintaining the
> > appropriate racing environment when the race is occurring--and that the
> > average person can easily understand how each rule applies--there won'tbe
> > any conflict. How many people are complaining about the no driving onthe
> > apron or no jumping the start rules? I am going to suppose none,because
> > there isn't any unreasonableness to be found in those rules or inanyone's
> > peculiar interpretation of the rule.
> >
> > Assuming any RASCAR people are still reading this thread at this point,I
Like I said before, I'll talk about the races anytime I want. Go ahead and
throw yor stupid little black flags. It's fun picking through the field.
David G Fisher
Quoted text (7 lines)
> In article <yKK1b.743$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > > > > I never said that they couldn't discuss the races. I just put a time > > > limit on it, and a reasonable time limit at that. > > > > The distinction is lost on most people who live in places where freeQuoted text (24 lines)
> > would appreciate some feedback as to whether ensuring that the rules are > > related to the racing environment-only would help clear up this mess. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Marc > > > It's a matter of style of management. If someone wants to continue > the bullshit in a more private forum (email, PM, whatever), I > couldn't really give a rat's ass. HOWEVER, since he forum is a RASCAR > forum, and is considered property of the league (for lack of a better > term), the discusion of the last race stops COMPLETELY in the RASCAR > forum and by Tuesday at 9pm central. Period. End of topic. > > For the record, I included r.a.s in the time-limit out of an honest > desire to keep this kind of long-winded bullshit from happening in > r.a.s. Just because we started the group here, doesn't mean we can > assault all non-RASCAR people with endless bickering, finger-pointing > and just plain childish bullshit concerning a race that happen > anywhere from one week to one year in the past. > > I've tried to keep the RASCAR stuff focused on the forum instead of > here, but as you see it doesn't always work out.
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <IHM1b.929$[email hidden]>, "Mitch_A"
> <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> >You seem to be able to skip the important part of the threadconsistently.
> >Again, who the F*&* are you to make these decisions? KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK,YOU
> >VOLUNTEERED for anything youre doing.
>
> Volunteered or elected, does it matter? John stepped down last season,and I
> don't remember anyone else stepping up to the plate to take his spot. Ed
> helped out, but I don't remember if he was already helping when John quit.
> Since I didn't have the experience to run a league at the time, I askedhim to
> reconsider. I also didn't have the time. I could probably do it myself,but
> it wouldn't be as thorough as it is now.
>
> Eldred
Yes, it matters a great deal. BTW, this isn't a league.
David G Fisher
"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bi7tgu$68412$[email hidden]...
for
> any rules that you want implemented ..How hard can this be ?
>
The dictator says we WILL NOT take polls!!
David G Fisher
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]... > > Well I guess Im the only one that has the balls to stand up to John (and > > Eldred though hes a silent partner). This is getting ridiculous. > Penalties > > for nearly anything and everything. <snip> > > Don't you guy's have a forum/web page or something ? Just put up a voteThat's exactly right. He made a challenge at the forum, and that's when you
brought it up.
David G Fisher
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:SpN1b.1002$[email hidden]...
> Geez, when I brought up last years bristol race it was from a challengeYOU
> made for anyone to find anything youve done un-sportsmanlike. Passing me
> under yellow when I was obviously slowing to take the yellow flag wasplain
> ole vanilla un-sportsmanlike so I accepted your challenge. End of story.
> Thats no reason for some insane rule cause John dont like it.
>
>
> "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > Final word - if we didn't havethe
Quoted text (7 lines)
> constant mindless bickering about > > long-past racing incidents by just a few individuals, I wouldn't have > > even come up with the time-limit idea. So put that on your cracker > > and chew on it for a while. > > > >
"Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:DRG1b.470$[email hidden]...
Of course a democratic approach can work. Especially with RASCAR. RASCAR is
not like other racing clubs because it is made up of people who have been
interacting with each other here at r.a.s, sometimes for years. I've been
here for six and a half years. I sure as hell won't have one person telling
me that I can't talk about a race at r.a.s., with those from r.a.s., after
9pm on the Tues. following a race. You've got to be f***ing kidding me.
David G Fisher
Quoted text (27 lines)
> Jan Verschueren wrote: > > "Bruce Kennewell" wrote... > >> With respect, Jan: from my experience that's Crap, with > >> a capital 'C'. > > > > I speak from experience... in simracing strong, autocratic simracing > > leagues have prospered while democratic clubs have invariably > > dwindled into non-existance. I myself have turned the GPVL F3/FV > > league from a democratic participation of 4 to an autocratic (I > > prefer the term "benevolent dictator"<sp?>) regular participation of > > about 15 out of 20. IMO, there has to be someone in charge (by > > selection or by nescessity) and he will have to deal with the odd > > dissident or two, but, if he does, he can be successfull in running a > > league. > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > The UKGPL league is a (mostly) democratic league and is one of, if not the > largest, national sim racing league. It has been running since 1999. > There are 276 members currently registered on the yahoo group, hardly > "dwindled into non-existance" ;) > > -- > > Ian P > <email invalid due to spammers>Huh? Wow, I did use a smiley at the end as it was mostly in jest Jan. If
we disagree on something must it degenerate to this?
Actually I like being called speedy but not in that context :)
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:s8O1b.83271> But, fine, don't think about it... pretend the race is not
going to happen
Quoted text (7 lines)
> until you actually have to go out and do it. Seeya at the back in the next > one, speedy. > > Jan. > =--- > >Leagues like Sascar are exactly why younger, newer leagues like RASCAR go thru
this transition. Sascar may be democratic, but it never would have survived
without Rodney.
John and Eldred, and Ed originally, are the reason RASCAR is still around, and
they don't deserve to be compared to Rodney, or Sascar.
Sascar was created in a very different environment. There weren't as many
people racing then, everyone knew everyone. And to my recollection they never
had an open door invite. There are no new leagues in the past few years that
have equaled or bettered what Sascar has. RASCAR is just going thru the same
transition all new league have to deal with.
Earlier in the year Alec Flory joined Flashpoint FASCAR for a brief moment and
almost no one new who he was. My point is comparing Sascar and RASCAR is like
comparing TEN and OLR.
:)
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Fwiw, one of the oldest leagues out there - Sascar, which I am a proud
> member of, has always run pretty much democratic. Rodney Arndt, the league
> admin, has been doing this a long time, does a great job, and pretty much
> makes it a league of what the drivers want. Yes, it has rules, but not quite
> so strong as some being mentioned here. And, any changes thought about are
> put to a poll for the drivers to vote on, and he pretty much always goes for
> what the majority wants. Sascar even has a replay committee that reviews
> incidents that bring out a yellow, and penalize points for those that are
> obviously responsible for bringing out the yellow, which is cumulative
> during a season and can lead to race suspensions.
> Must be doing something right, as there is quite a waiting list for this
> league.
>
"Mitch_A" wrote...
> Huh? Wow, I did use a smiley at the end as it was
> mostly in jest Jan. If we disagree on something
> must it degenerate to this?
You hit a nerve... I've had to work *very* hard to get where I am in racing
(which, let's face it, is not very far). I don't like it when that
commitment is ridiculed.
> Actually I like being called speedy but not in that context :)
Hehehe... I do pick my words carefully most of the time, ya know. ;-)
Jan.
=---
>No I'm not. People who claim a particular track is more difficult and
>dangerous than others are already lining up their excuses for messing up,
>rather than working out how they can lap the track safely and consistently.
Then every Winston Cup driver is wrong when they say Bristol is more difficult
than Michigan or Vegas?
I know Ed, I know.
Just trying to incite another riot.
:)))
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3f475f05$[email hidden]...
> "Tim" said:
>
> > But your not doing that anymore now are you bud :)
> > So my question would be, who is doing that now?
>
> Now - is a completely different story.
> I was merely pointing out that he wasn't the only one that had put a lot of
> spare time into this..
>
> And who know's - had things been handled a bit differently - I might still
> be doing it....
>
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in >
> You hit a nerve... I've had to work *very* hard to get where I am inracing
> (which, let's face it, is not very far). I don't like it when that
> commitment is ridiculed.
>
Is my commitment to racing any more/less? Ive been here since the begining
and Sim racing since Bill Elliots Nascar Challenge. I would bet I had the
biggest long distance bill on Hawaii :) (Im embarrased to say how much). I
wasnt ridiculing your commitment in any way, merely disagreeing on
differeing track difficulties.
> > Actually I like being called speedy but not in that context :)
>
> Hehehe... I do pick my words carefully most of the time, ya know. ;-)
>
Unfortunately I dont pick my words as carefully as I should at times :)
Been a long long time since I was "in class" and when I was it was more to
look at chicks than for any "book-learnin" <G>.
> Jan.
> =---
>
>
Maybe you should have spent 12 Larry.
'Cause last I heard that wasn't a democracy either :))
(sorry, just had to get that in there :))
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:w2N1b.9890$Go4.5947@lakeread01...
> Frankly, I'll talk about what I want, to who I want, when I want. No rule
> is going to alter my expression of free speech, period. I didn't speed 11
> years in the military protecting people's basic rights to give up my own for
> stupid reasons.
>
"Bamadano" wrote...
> > <snip>
> Then every Winston Cup driver is wrong when they say
> Bristol is more difficult than Michigan or Vegas?
Yes and no, there are aspects about racing _at_ Bristol which are more
difficult. It is more difficult to pass, it is more difficult to keep your
cool as everybody else is *in your face* all the time, etc... For a
professional racecar driver it *is* a mistake to label a certain venue more
difficult than others, though
Happens all the time though. Just been watching the first couple hours of
the Zolder 24hr race and drivers were saying that this 24hr was more
difficult than the Spa or Le Mans 24hr. What they meant was the cockpit
workload per lap is higher/more intense and the higher number of shifts and
the nescessity to use the kerbs was harder on the cars, but they said "more
difficult".
Jan.
=---
lol
Which reminds me,
Since when did free speech have anything to do with racing. Lives are at steak
people.
:)))
One pet peeve for me is the very nature of RASCAR invites opinions from those
who don't race with RASCAR but feel the need to voice their own take on someone
else's rules. I am always amazed at that. They love the bickering but let
someone try to stop it ...
It would be great if everyone who felt the need to chime in on someone elses
problems would just sign up and race and put a real effort in to make an impact
with numbers. But ask anyone of them if they stand outside that dept store
leaning up against their truck while slamming mgmt on how stupid they are for
running a sale like that. One of RASCAR's biggest problem is where all this is
discussed. How many other leagues have to endure this open a forum. Heck, even
in OLR you have to join just to see what everyone is saying.
Like my man Charles, "I could be wrong, but I doubt it."
:)
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Right now, our racing has all the focus and organization of a department store
running a sale on ladies hats.
$900 in the 3rd month
:)
Still don't think that was all me though :)
Now that I think about it, Josh had them showing up at his door lol
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:WWO1b.770$[email hidden]...
> I would bet I had the biggest long distance bill on Hawaii :) (Im embarrased
to say how much). I
> wasnt ridiculing your commitment in any way, merely disagreeing on
> differeing track difficulties.
I don't think they mean it's more difficult as much as the mean they hate it
more. Or less :))
--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com
"Bamadano" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Then every Winston Cup driver is wrong when they say Bristol is more difficult
> than Michigan or Vegas?
Pretty big Tim but my average over 5 months was higher than that :)) Hell I
called the phone co and said it was my kids and they didnt no it was LD
<vbseg> They didnt buy it though :)
"Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:siP1b.11618$[email hidden]...
embarrased
> to say how much). I
> > wasnt ridiculing your commitment in any way, merely disagreeing on
> > differeing track difficulties.
>
>
Quoted text (14 lines)
> $900 in the 3rd month > :) > > Still don't think that was all me though :) > Now that I think about it, Josh had them showing up at his door lol > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WWO1b.770$[email hidden]... > > I would bet I had the biggest long distance bill on Hawaii :) (Im"How many other leagues have to endure this open a forum."
And vice versa. Most leagues run their own forums for a reason, to keep it
in the league not public. It would be nice if RASCAR could do the same.
"Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:odP1b.11569$[email hidden]...
> lol
>
> Which reminds me,
>
> Since when did free speech have anything to do with racing. Lives are atsteak
> people.
> :)))
>
> One pet peeve for me is the very nature of RASCAR invites opinions fromthose
> who don't race with RASCAR but feel the need to voice their own take onsomeone
> else's rules. I am always amazed at that. They love the bickering butlet
> someone try to stop it ...
>
> It would be great if everyone who felt the need to chime in on someoneelses
> problems would just sign up and race and put a real effort in to make animpact
> with numbers. But ask anyone of them if they stand outside that deptstore
> leaning up against their truck while slamming mgmt on how stupid they arefor
> running a sale like that. One of RASCAR's biggest problem is where allthis is
> discussed. How many other leagues have to endure this open a forum.Heck, even
store
> running a sale on ladies hats.
>
>
Quoted text (13 lines)
> in OLR you have to join just to see what everyone is saying. > > Like my man Charles, "I could be wrong, but I doubt it." > :) > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Right now, our racing has all the focus and organization of a departmentLess.
I think they mean exactly what they say. Its more difficult which in turn
creates the hatred.
"Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:2lP1b.11642$[email hidden]...
> I don't think they mean it's more difficult as much as the mean they hateit
difficult
> > than Michigan or Vegas?
>
>
Quoted text (11 lines)
> more. Or less :)) > > -- > Tim White > www.intracmotorsports.com > > > "Bamadano" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > Then every Winston Cup driver is wrong when they say Bristol is more
"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:0sP1b.60846$[email hidden]...
> "How many other leagues have to endure this open a forum."
>
> And vice versa. Most leagues run their own forums for a reason, to keepit
> in the league not public. It would be nice if RASCAR could do the same.
>RASCAR does a pretty good job of labeling it's threads. Easy enough not to
open and read wouldn't you say??
NG standard policy, you don't like it? Don't read it.......
Sean
I understand that, but my point is would you want every league doing that?
RAS is more than RASCAR but you don't see other leagues using it for an open
forum. Since RASCAR seems to no longer be open to all why not take it
elsewhere is all.
I can easily filter the posts but check them from time to time for a laugh.
"McWhom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
to
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:0sP1b.60846$[email hidden]... > > "How many other leagues have to endure this open a forum." > > > > And vice versa. Most leagues run their own forums for a reason, to keep > it > > in the league not public. It would be nice if RASCAR could do the same. > > > RASCAR does a pretty good job of labeling it's threads. Easy enough notQuoted text (7 lines)
> open and read wouldn't you say?? > > NG standard policy, you don't like it? Don't read it....... > > Sean > >That was my point. Not trying to stir up shit, just since RASCAR is not
everyone here it might make more sense to keep it on the forum instead is
all. Post from time to time are fine but recently it seems the majority of
RAS posts are RASCAR.
"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3f47d557$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (18 lines)
> "McWhom"said > > > RASCAR does a pretty good job of labeling it's threads. Easy enough not > to > > open and read wouldn't you say?? > > > > NG standard policy, you don't like it? Don't read it....... > > In all fairness Sean... I too am think this has gone *too* far.... Had I > not had special interest in the subject I'd be screaming out like hell.... > Considering that this is a subject/topic that concerns 20 or 30 readers of > this forum - the amount of posts on the subject are getting redicilously > high. > > -- > ed_ > >"McWhom"said
> RASCAR does a pretty good job of labeling it's threads. Easy enough notto
> open and read wouldn't you say??
>
> NG standard policy, you don't like it? Don't read it.......
In all fairness Sean... I too am think this has gone *too* far.... Had I
not had special interest in the subject I'd be screaming out like hell....
Considering that this is a subject/topic that concerns 20 or 30 readers of
this forum - the amount of posts on the subject are getting redicilously
high.
--
ed_
Exactly, Gerry. Exactly. All designed to entertain the spectators and,
before commercialism entered the arena (pun intended), to entertain the
participants who, after the game, returned to the real world.
(Although I would classify cricket as a form of torture. I think that the
Spanish Inquisition invented cricket.)
Bruce.
"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> Yep, just like football, cricket, rugby...
>
Having been involved in retail at some stage of my long and wearisome career
path, I can assure you that the sale of ladies hats would be well-focused
and organised by the sales staff and management.
It's the ladies themselves who create the chaos.
Hmmmm.............seems that there's a bit of a similarity
there............. :)
Bruce.
"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Right now, our racing has all
> the focus and organization of a department store running a sale on
> ladies hats.
They are?
I'll have mine medium-rare, thanks very much. And hold the salad.
Bruce.
"Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:odP1b.11569$[email hidden]...
> Lives are at steak people.
Commendable, Jan. Well done.
No doubt those who were subject to your governance were (and are) most
grateful.
(Why you would even mention making excuses I have no idea and what golf has
to do with it leaves me bemused as well.)
Bruce.
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Z1H1b.82483$[email hidden]...
>
> Exactly... I have been doing it for 9 years now and I happen to be good at
> it. I make no excuses for that, a 4 handicap golfer wouldn't either.
>
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:00:28 -0300, "Schooner"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>That was my point. Not trying to stir up shit, just since RASCAR is not
>everyone here it might make more sense to keep it on the forum instead is
>all. Post from time to time are fine but recently it seems the majority of
>RAS posts are RASCAR.
>Why don't you get a real newsreader and filter out all threads with
RASCAR in the title if it bothers you? It doesn't bother me in the
least.
Andrew.
sigh
Nevermind. Was just expressing an opinion on the subject, post away.
Sorry for intruding into your private newsgroup ;-)
<aep@nospam writeme.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:00:28 -0300, "Schooner"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> >That was my point. Not trying to stir up shit, just since RASCAR is not
> >everyone here it might make more sense to keep it on the forum instead is
> >all. Post from time to time are fine but recently it seems the majorityof
Quoted text (7 lines)
> >RAS posts are RASCAR. > > > Why don't you get a real newsreader and filter out all threads with > RASCAR in the title if it bothers you? It doesn't bother me in the > least. > > Andrew.Here's an interesting (well, possibly boring.....it's up to you, the reader,
to determine that) scenario:-
What if someone watched a RASCAR race and then published herein their
observations of said race in which they critiqued the performance and
behaviour of the participants and the organisation?
And what if the post wasn't made until, say, Tuesday?
Is anyone going to tell me that such a post wouldn't receive a reaction from
those being referred to?
Just a hypothetical, of course. :)
Bruce
"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I sure as hell won't have one person telling
> me that I can't talk about a race at r.a.s., with those from r.a.s., after
> 9pm on the Tues. following a race. You've got to be f***ing kidding me.
>
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:35:21 -0300, "Schooner"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>sigh
>Nevermind. Was just expressing an opinion on the subject, post away.
>Sorry for intruding into your private newsgroup ;-)
>I am not involved with RASCAR.
Andrew.
Sim-racers aren't the only ones.
There are plenty of real-world examples where two or more protagonists will
get together and rehash previous situations.
It's a natural thing to do.
Attempting to stop it is a weird move.
Bruce.
"Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:XxL1b.235592$Ho3.29995@sccrnsc03...
>
> Community is what simracing is all about. Simracers LOVE to go back and
> talk about the past (even if it was only 2 weeks ago).
Sorry, Ted.
That exclamation point should have been followed by a :)
:)
Bruce.
"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bi7akh$61ul0$[email hidden]...
>
> I thought you were one of the less serious ppl on here, anyway ?
> I believe I may have mentioned the fact that Herr Simmons was an arrogant
> tosser about 2 years ago...hmmmm ?
>
>
I think Gerry was being facetious, Ted. :)
Bruce.
"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bi81us$63cul$[email hidden]...
>
> A poll vote. You know the type.Just click the magic circle to registeryour
> vote.
My intent was not to compare John and Eldred to Rod, just to give an example
of how a league can be very successful by allowing the drivers to have a
major say in what is and is not implemented. Believe me, we have gone
through some pains with too many yellows early on in the change to the new
physics model as well.
Back when I actually ran some with Rascar, I was very impressed by the
quality of the drivers and the clean racing. Obviously ,. things have
changed since then.
My hats off to Eldred and John for putting the time in for Rascar that they
do, I have been there as you know and know what it is like.
:)
Don
Tim wrote:
Quoted text (36 lines)
> Leagues like Sascar are exactly why younger, newer leagues like > RASCAR go thru this transition. Sascar may be democratic, but it > never would have survived without Rodney. > > John and Eldred, and Ed originally, are the reason RASCAR is still > around, and they don't deserve to be compared to Rodney, or Sascar. > > Sascar was created in a very different environment. There weren't as > many people racing then, everyone knew everyone. And to my > recollection they never had an open door invite. There are no new > leagues in the past few years that have equaled or bettered what > Sascar has. RASCAR is just going thru the same transition all new > league have to deal with. > > Earlier in the year Alec Flory joined Flashpoint FASCAR for a brief > moment and almost no one new who he was. My point is comparing > Sascar and RASCAR is like comparing TEN and OLR. > > :) > > > "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Fwiw, one of the oldest leagues out there - Sascar, which I am a >> proud member of, has always run pretty much democratic. Rodney >> Arndt, the league admin, has been doing this a long time, does a >> great job, and pretty much makes it a league of what the drivers >> want. Yes, it has rules, but not quite so strong as some being >> mentioned here. And, any changes thought about are put to a poll for >> the drivers to vote on, and he pretty much always goes for what the >> majority wants. Sascar even has a replay committee that reviews >> incidents that bring out a yellow, and penalize points for those >> that are obviously responsible for bringing out the yellow, which is >> cumulative during a season and can lead to race suspensions. >> Must be doing something right, as there is quite a waiting list for >> this league.In article <[email hidden]>, John Simmons
<[email hidden]> writes:
>So put that on your cracker
>and chew on it for a while.
What the...? Redneck speak...? :-)
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
In article <[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher"
<[email hidden]> writes:
*Sigh*
Ok, david...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (9 lines)
>> Since I didn't have the experience to run a league at the time, I asked >him to >> reconsider. I also didn't have the time. I could probably do it myself, >but >> it wouldn't be as thorough as it is now. >> >> Eldred > >Yes, it matters a great deal. BTW, this isn't a league.In article <TIN1b.83217$[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren"
<[email hidden]> writes:
Well, *I* don't know how to get out of the way without hitting the outside
wall. Same thing happens at Bristol - I go high to let someone by, the track
narrows, and I hit the wall. That either damages my car, or I get stuck on the
wall glue, which triggered a multi-car wreck there last season.
I don't consider EITHER of those tracks wide enough for good safe racing. It's
a lot tougher on those of us who don't have speed. When you can keep up, you
don't have to move over, and can run your line. When you're off the pace, you
have to give way, which usually results in grief(for me, anyway).
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (9 lines)
>The only real thing that happens at Darlington as opposed to Michigan is >that if you misjudge keeping your distance with reference to another driver, >you can't drift out of line to correct that and still make it around the >turn relatively quickly. You have to leave yourself that extra margin for >error when following somebody "new" and you really have to slow down if >you're not running "the preferred line" through the turn. Does this require >more discipline? -A little. Is it slower and could you lose a lot of spots >if you get hung out? -Yes. Is it technically and any more difficult than on >any other track? -No, the limit is the limit.In article <0sP1b.60846$[email hidden]>, "Schooner"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>"How many other leagues have to endure this open a forum."
>
>And vice versa. Most leagues run their own forums for a reason, to keep it
>in the league not public. It would be nice if RASCAR could do the same.
I've suggested that SEVERAL times, and even created a YahooGroup for it. I was
apparently the only one who felt like that.
So now, they have to deal with the peanut gallery..
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:j6R1b.60901$[email hidden]...
> sigh
> Nevermind. Was just expressing an opinion on the subject, post away.
> Sorry for intruding into your private newsgroup ;-)
>LOL, Sorry. I was really not trying to be a smartass, nor start a new line
of posts against you. In RASN there are many off topic posts, some of which
I join, others I ignore. I also agree that the RASCAR threads get very long
here. I have even mentioned it. There were several threads in our forum
and they were going on a good bit. Mitch posted over here and it seems the
whole conversation moved, then the regular readers joined, then it got out
of hand. Yes, I think so too. Tried to settle things a little but didn't
work, what can ya do???
I do think RASCAR belongs here though. I bought NR2K3, liked it and found I
could drive it pretty well so I subscribed to this NG, found RASCAR here
(woohoo ! ) and joined, were it not discussed on here who knows where I
would have ended up?
Why don't more guys/gals(?) post on the other threads? Maybe discussions of
hardware don't touch a nerve, perhaps discussions of particular sims just
doesn't get the blood boiling. There is definetly some personality
conflicts that keep our threads active and that is not really on the
shoulders of the group RASCAR.
Just MHO
Sean
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > Don't you guy's have a forum/web page or something ? Just put up a vote > for > > any rules that you want implemented ..How hard can this be ? > > > > The dictator says we WILL NOT take polls!! > > David G Fisher
Bruce Kennewell wrote:
>
> Commendable, Jan. Well done.
> No doubt those who were subject to your governance were (and are) most
> grateful.
> (Why you would even mention making excuses I have no idea and what golf has
> to do with it leaves me bemused as well.)
Golf ........ don't get me started
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
"EldredP" wrote in message >
> So now, they have to deal with the peanut gallery..
>
Ah, thats why our racing sucks. Pay peanuts, and you get monkeys. :o)
oh forget it. I'll go back to sleep...
Steve
In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
I have a whole supply of colorful coloquialisms...
Quoted text (10 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, John Simmons > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >So put that on your cracker > >and chew on it for a while. > > What the...? Redneck speak...? :-) > > Eldred >
> I have a whole supply of colorful coloquialisms...
One of them might even be funny.
I am generally as anti-military as you can get, but that comment was way out
of line to a veteran, redTed.
Marc
"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bi8a3j$6dss3$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (14 lines)
> > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Wow, now that's representative of "all the ex-military". I served in > > the Gulf of Tonkin on the USS Turner Joy. I was getting shot at > > before many of you were even born. I guess your "all the ex- > > military" assumption just got pretty much blown out of the water... > > Yeah..Ok... > The only people shooting at you were your fellow village people. > > (damn, I wish he hadn't killfiled me..this could have been top laughs) > >
"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:r7T1b.14366$[email hidden]...
> I am generally as anti-military as you can get, but that comment was wayout
> of line to a veteran, redTed.
>He's a vet, alright. A veteran bullshitter.
>"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote
> it's still STUPID to to be typing when you're
> supposed to be maintaining a steady speed and steady distance between
> you and the car in front of you.
People have been chatting under caution since HAWAII, almost a decade ago.
Nobody has ever died. People still do race. People have wrecked more under
caution while NOT chatting then while chatting. Therefore, chatting under
caution isn't a problem.
If I raced in RASCAR (I don't, because of various reasons including some
paint car thingy problem), I would for sure chat under caution. I don't
want to fucking bore me to death while waiting for the next stupid wreck.
I've waiting too long in my "sim" racing career to not allow myself to chat
under caution. Screw those 1% idiots who wreck while chatting under
caution.
There's that tool, just mute the guy who chats. Papy made the tool for
that.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- http://ymenard.cjb.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
:-)
David G Fisher
"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3f47de73$[email hidden]...
> Here's an interesting (well, possibly boring.....it's up to you, thereader,
from
after
> > 9pm on the Tues. following a race. You've got to be f***ing kidding me.
> >
>
>
>
Quoted text (8 lines)
> to determine that) scenario:- > > What if someone watched a RASCAR race and then published herein their > observations of said race in which they critiqued the performance and > behaviour of the participants and the organisation? > And what if the post wasn't made until, say, Tuesday? > > Is anyone going to tell me that such a post wouldn't receive a reactionQuoted text (10 lines)
> those being referred to? > > Just a hypothetical, of course. :) > > Bruce > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I sure as hell won't have one person telling > > me that I can't talk about a race at r.a.s., with those from r.a.s.,Bruce Kennewell wrote:
Yeah, but what's wrong with people taking sim racing seriously? If it
gets them all fired up and passionate, that's good, right? Sim racing,
like another game, has it's up and down. If it was all ups it would be
boring, imo.
Gerry
Quoted text (17 lines)
> Exactly, Gerry. Exactly. All designed to entertain the spectators and, > before commercialism entered the arena (pun intended), to entertain the > participants who, after the game, returned to the real world. > > (Although I would classify cricket as a form of torture. I think that the > Spanish Inquisition invented cricket.) > > Bruce. > > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>Yep, just like football, cricket, rugby... >> > > >David G Fisher wrote:
This a worrying. If there is no mechanism for a vote of confidence in
the admin. then it is indeed a dictatorship.
Quoted text (22 lines)
> "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bi7tgu$68412$[email hidden]... > >>"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>news:Sys1b.4225$%[email hidden]... >> >>>Well I guess Im the only one that has the balls to stand up to John (and >>>Eldred though hes a silent partner). This is getting ridiculous. >> >>Penalties >> >>>for nearly anything and everything. <snip> >> >>Don't you guy's have a forum/web page or something ? Just put up a vote > > for > >>any rules that you want implemented ..How hard can this be ? >> > > > The dictator says we WILL NOT take polls!!In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...
Even though the racing rules haven't changed (and how many times am I
gonna have to say that?)...
Considering that Dave and Mitch are really the only ones really
complaining out of the 50+ members, I'd say that speaks volumes. I'm
be willing to lose two or even 20 people over rules changes than even
ONE person because of crappy racing.
In fact, more people have stated that they'd be willing to see what
happens with the penalty thing, or don't care because all they really
want to do is race. Besides that, I have already stated and RE-
stated that if it didn't work or didn't appear to be needed, that
we'd try something else.
Short of allowing everyone to come up with their own personal set of
rules that only they have to obey, I don't see how I could be more
accomodating.
