GP3 - canned spins?

Those of you that have played this sucker: does it still have the canned spins of GP2? -- ----------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ -----------------------------------

From what i saw and felt at Goodwood.... Yes. Ed_ > Those of you that have played this sucker: does it still have the canned spins

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> of GP2? > -- > ----------------------------------- > Morgan Vincent Wooten > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > -----------------------------------

With all due respect, if you think GP2 had "canned spins", then you weren't truely feeling the simulation. It was a very difficult sim, but the spins were true. James

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> From what i saw and felt at Goodwood.... Yes. > Ed_ > > Those of you that have played this sucker: does it still have the canned > spins > > of GP2? > > -- > > ----------------------------------- > > Morgan Vincent Wooten > > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > > -----------------------------------

Ughh... Crammond must be an arcade fan. -- ----------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ -----------------------------------

It was canned try power spin the car and the power will cut off after 180 degrees everytime

And in the same breath you guys complain about CPU requirements etc. C'mon guys... Real-time dynamic spins with floating point spin dynamics is a LOT od CPU load... Pick your potion... A CPU friendly Sim, or a real CPU hog (that are not available yet) with all ya want. Why not wait and see too ;) Cheers, Schumi > Those of you that have played this sucker: does it still have the canned spins

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> of GP2? > -- > ----------------------------------- > Morgan Vincent Wooten > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > -----------------------------------

Now plug in a wheel and pedal combo, turn of ALL driver aids (even the one's in the menus that aren't switchable from the car) and calibrate the wheel properly. Now see if you think the spins are canned spins. David C (R4) > It was canned try power spin the car and the power will cut off after 180 > degrees everytime

GPL? Oliver BEOROCKET Racing: www.beorocket.co.yu

> Real-time dynamic spins with floating point spin dynamics is a LOT od CPU > load... Nonsense, it needs exactly the same computations as for simulating the car without spinning. The only problem is that you need tire and aerodynamics data for a much larger envelope. If spins are canned (i.e. are using a separate computation path), I'd say that the non-spin behaviour is canned also since the latter should handle spins by itself if it wasn't. _ Mats Lofkvist

All that shows is that the power spin turns were canned... ;-) Cheers, Richard

Depends on your definition of canned. I'll agree they are not completely pre-programmed, but they are not modelled correctly, IMO. My main gripes are: - It's nearly impossible to stop rotation other than by opposite lock. I.e. locking all wheels or steering into the slide are ineffective most of the time. - The way the car just keeps sliding to a stop on asphalt instead of re-sticking ***ly. These are after all very light cars on full slicks. - Hardly any indication of when and why things go awry. In fact I lost many an hour fruitlessly searching for the "why" behind a spin in my Gp2 days. Jan. =---

The spins in gp2 were DEFINATLY canned.With the oppossite lock feature off ,as soon as the car started to go sideways it kept on going no matter what you did or how fast you done it.The model just stopped calculating and sent you into a canned spin.In gpl you can get the car back fromfrom sideways and if you back off the rear grips and throws you back the other way like in real life.If Gp3 has canned spins it will be totally pathetic,since even F12000 has properly executed sudeways which allows you to fight it. > Those of you that have played this sucker: does it still have the canned spins

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> of GP2? > -- > ----------------------------------- > Morgan Vincent Wooten > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > -----------------------------------

I've driven without any aids (except invulnerability, since I'm still learning the circuits) since first firing up the game and I drive with a wheel and pedals and I can definitively say that the spins, up to a point, are canned. Some spins can be caught if anticipated, but most, even slow ones that should be easily catchable, are taken completely out of the driver's hands. -- ----------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ ----------------------------------- > Now plug in a wheel and pedal combo, turn of ALL driver aids (even the one's > in the menus that aren't switchable from the car) and calibrate the wheel > properly. > Now see if you think the spins are canned spins. > David C (R4) > > It was canned try power spin the car and the power will cut off after 180 > > degrees everytime

spoke: Even SCGT has dynamic spins. -- Nos

The power CUTS out even without steering help and opposite lock turned off and all driver aids off !!!!!!!!!! And BTW a sim that let you setup the car by calibrating the wheel isn't realistic. If in GP2 your wheel isn't setup properly the tyres feel like hard plastic it has no *** tyre deformation feel at all, in a good sim like GPL or Nascar3 the car feels like a car with *** tyres even if your wheel isn't properly configured and I am totally impartial here because my favorite game is GP2 and I almost don't play GPL or Nascar 3 but objectivly seen GP2 fails as a sim

>........ If in GP2 your wheel isn't setup properly the tyres feel like > hard plastic it has no *** tyre deformation feel at all, in a good sim > like GPL or Nascar3 the car feels like a car with *** tyres even if your > wheel isn't properly configured and I am totally impartial here because my > favorite game is GP2 and I almost don't play GPL or Nascar 3 but objectivly > seen GP2 fails as a sim Good God! Take a breath, man. <g> -- Chuck Kandler GPL F1 Handicap of +210.00 as of 6/15 GPL F3 Handicap of +438.42 as of 6/21 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

ive got a hotlap replay of myself catching a few BIG slides in GP2 if anyone is interested. The 180 engine cut thing is annoying, but doesnt bother me as i dont spin all the way round..... Ive never seen a cannned spin (cept in all those sprite based 80-95 games) pez >Those of you that have played this sucker: does it still have the canned spins

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>of GP2? >-- >----------------------------------- >Morgan Vincent Wooten >http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ >-----------------------------------

I've caught big slides in GP2 too, everyone has. That doesn't mean all spins are simulated correctly. Personally, I've always had the feeling once you stepped over a certain limit (which, maybe because of the insufficient simulation rate, is not clearly defined) there was no real control until the car stopped. If you don't spin in GP2 at all anymore, then that's a very strong indication, IMO, some limits are hard coded into the game, rather than arising from circumstance (even the F1 guys still spin, let alone us poor bastards). Jan. =---

?? I don't think so...GPL can run pretty good on my system, but GP2 still reports 200% processor usage...looks like canned spins AND a CPU hog!!! =) -- Kirk Lane > And in the same breath you guys complain about CPU requirements etc. > C'mon guys... > Real-time dynamic spins with floating point spin dynamics is a LOT od CPU > load... > Pick your potion... > A CPU friendly Sim, or a real CPU hog (that are not available yet) with all > ya want. > Why not wait and see too ;) > Cheers, > Schumi > > Those of you that have played this sucker: does it still have the canned > spins > > of GP2? > > -- > > ----------------------------------- > > Morgan Vincent Wooten > > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > > -----------------------------------

> The power CUTS out even without steering help and opposite lock turned off > and all driver aids off !!!!!!!!!! > And BTW a sim that let you setup the car by calibrating the wheel isn't > realistic. If in GP2 your wheel isn't setup properly the tyres feel like > hard plastic it has no *** tyre deformation feel at all, in a good sim > like GPL or Nascar3 the car feels like a car with *** tyres even if your > wheel isn't properly configured and I am totally impartial here because my > favorite game is GP2 and I almost don't play GPL or Nascar 3 but objectivly > seen GP2 fails as a sim Maybe it's just me, but I think a modern F1 car should feel extremely twitchy or non-progressive compared to just about any other sort of car. They're very light, have tons of aerodynamic grip- which completely disappears when they're going sideways or backwards, holy-***-loads of power, and the polar moment of inertia must be really tiny. I can forgive a sim for feeling a bit "supernatural" when the machines it simulates are nearly supernatural themselves. -A

I agree but even in 1993 the cars were not as twitchy as in GP2

maybe im just too damn good.... hehe pez:) Jan Verschueren wrote in message ... >I've caught big slides in GP2 too, everyone has. That doesn't mean allspins

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>are simulated correctly. > >Personally, I've always had the feeling once you stepped over a certain >limit (which, maybe because of the insufficient simulation rate, is not >clearly defined) there was no real control until the car stopped. > >If you don't spin in GP2 at all anymore, then that's a very strong >indication, IMO, some limits are hard coded into the game, rather than >arising from circumstance (even the F1 guys still spin, let alone us poor >bastards). > >Jan. >=--- >pez wrote... >> ive got a hotlap replay of myself catching a few BIG slides in GP2 if >anyone >> is interested. >> >> The 180 engine cut thing is annoying, but doesnt bother me as i dont spin >> all the way round..... >> >> Ive never seen a cannned spin (cept in all those sprite based 80-95

games) >> >> pez >> >> <snip> > >

In article <8jqekj$jh2$[email hidden]>, "Allan Harrison" <[email hidden]> writes: >What are you talking about. GP3 is just the official name for the 1998 track >and drivers pack for Grand Prix 2. > >Allan Harrison Cynic...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +70.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <Dgy75.22519$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Morgan V. Wooten�) wrote: > Those of you that have played this sucker: does it still have the > canned spins > of GP2 Oh shit, wasn't this done to death during GP2'2 reign? Depends a lot on your definition of "canned". Personally, I didn't have a problem with the spins in GP2, it was only one area of the overall driving model and the whole package was (and still is IMHO) an awesome piece of programming for its time. GP3 will not be *perfect*. The perfect sim does not, (GPL included!) and probably never will, exist. But GP3 *WILL* be pretty fantastic anyway, despite the number of minor flaws and omissions we already know about. In my opinion, (based on using GC's programs for many years) GP3 will raise the standards for modern F1 sims yet again, as did GP2. If GP3 is *half* as good now, as GP2 was then, I'll be passing dosh over the counter without hesitation. 8-) *Peter* - http://www.cix.co.uk/~peterpc/home.html

On Sun, 2 Jul 2000 14:31:05 +1000, "James" <[email hidden]> wrote: >With all due respect, if you think GP2 had "canned spins", then you weren't >truely feeling the simulation. >It was a very difficult sim, but the spins were true. This has been done to death, but the spins were definitely canned to some degree. The inertia is all wrong. John

Simulations get to be un real when you won the championship 10 times and can beat the AI at %120. :-) > All current sims feel unrealistic at some point - this doesn't >mean that someone's sat there and programmed in some particular type of >unrealistic behaviour that takes over automatically.

An F1 car re-sticking will have you calling your osteopath... in Gp2 it gingerly slides to a halt (even on asphalt), irrespective of what you do to the controls. Maybe this is because you can neither use a clutch nor stall the engine, but it's *not* right. Jeeezzz even thinking about it brings back the frustration. Jan. =--- Gregor Veble wrote...

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> Jan Verschueren wrote: > > > > Personally, I've always had the feeling once you stepped over a certain > > limit (which, maybe because of the insufficient simulation rate, is not > > clearly defined) there was no real control until the car stopped. > > > > Sounds awfully lot like a real car if you ask me. > > -Gregor

In article <8jq1sa$smo$[email hidden]>, <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>In article <Dgy75.22519$[email hidden]>, > >Oh shit, wasn't this done to death during GP2'2 reign? Depends a lot on >your definition of "canned". > >Personally, I didn't have a problem with the spins in GP2, it was only >one area of the overall driving model and the whole package was (and >still is IMHO) an awesome piece of programming for its time. > >GP3 will not be *perfect*. The perfect sim does not, (GPL included!) and >probably never will, exist. But GP3 *WILL* be pretty fantastic anyway, >despite the number of minor flaws and omissions we already know about. > >In my opinion, (based on using GC's programs for many years) GP3 will >raise the standards for modern F1 sims yet again, as did GP2. > >If GP3 is *half* as good now, as GP2 was then, I'll be passing dosh over >the counter without hesitation. > >8-) > >*Peter* - http://www.cix.co.uk/~peterpc/home.html

Still it will be a bit disappointing even for diehard GP2 fans like myself, if after all these years of development Geoff didn't fix the biggest and most obvious flaw of GP2 (yes those canned spins did exist). Personally I'm still looking forward to it, but it will be sad if it still has this big flaw. Hoping he didn't spend all these years working on eye-candy. --John --

Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Jan Verschueren wrote: >> >> Personally, I've always had the feeling once you stepped over a certain >> limit (which, maybe because of the insufficient simulation rate, is not >> clearly defined) there was no real control until the car stopped. >> > >Sounds awfully lot like a real car if you ask me.

YOUR CAR IS NOT REAL! YOUR CAR IS NOT REAL!!! IT'S NOT BAD, BUT IT'S NOT GPL!! :-) JoH ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- --------------------------------------------------------------

Take two aspirin and call Ron Dennis in the morning. Jan.;-) =--- pez wrote...

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> maybe im just too damn good.... > > hehe > > pez:) > > <snip>

Jan Verschueren wrote: > > Personally, I've always had the feeling once you stepped over a certain > limit (which, maybe because of the insufficient simulation rate, is not > clearly defined) there was no real control until the car stopped. > Sounds awfully lot like a real car if you ask me. -Gregor

John Wallace <[email hidden]> wrote: : On Sun, 2 Jul 2000 14:31:05 +1000, "James" <[email hidden]> : wrote: :>With all due respect, if you think GP2 had "canned spins", then you weren't :>truely feeling the simulation. :>It was a very difficult sim, but the spins were true. : This has been done to death, but the spins were definitely canned to : some degree. The inertia is all wrong. Does this mean that GPL has canned "buzz up into the air, rotate 12 times, hover, hang there for 10 seconds and fall". Well the inertia's wrong. Definitely means it was canned I guess :-) -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

Richard G Clegg wrote:

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> > : This has been done to death, but the spins were definitely canned to > : some degree. The inertia is all wrong. > > Does this mean that GPL has canned "buzz up into the air, rotate 12 > times, hover, hang there for 10 seconds and fall". Well the inertia's > wrong. Definitely means it was canned I guess :-) >

I'm not even sure that inertia in GP2 is wrong. After setting the inertia in F1 2000 to a reallistically possible value (it is really far off in the default car parameters), they acquired the same 'canned' behaviour, meaning that once a spin really starts it's rather impossible to get the car under control. My guess is that it has more to do with the lack of the seat of the pants feel than any errors in modelling of the car behaviour. -Gregor

Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote: : Richard G Clegg wrote: :> :> : This has been done to death, but the spins were definitely canned to :> : some degree. The inertia is all wrong. :> :> Does this mean that GPL has canned "buzz up into the air, rotate 12 :> times, hover, hang there for 10 seconds and fall". Well the inertia's :> wrong. Definitely means it was canned I guess :-) : I'm not even sure that inertia in GP2 is wrong. After setting the : inertia in F1 2000 to a reallistically possible value (it is really far : off in the default car parameters), they acquired the same 'canned' : behaviour, meaning that once a spin really starts it's rather impossible : to get the car under control. My guess is that it has more to do with : the lack of the seat of the pants feel than any errors in modelling of : the car behaviour. Sure - I agree with you. I was just poking fun at the "canned spins" idiots. All current sims feel unrealistic at some point - this doesn't mean that someone's sat there and programmed in some particular type of unrealistic behaviour that takes over automatically. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

Maybe he did? Oliver BEOROCKET Racing: www.beorocket.co.yu "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Take two aspirin and call Ron Dennis in the morning. > > Jan.;-) > =--- > pez wrote... > > maybe im just too damn good.... > > > > hehe > > > > pez:) > > > > <snip> > >

You forgot the weather, FF, network play, 3D card support etc....... -- Ian Parker "Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." <email invalid due to spam> Allan Harrison <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8jqekj$jh2$[email hidden]... > What are you talking about. GP3 is just the official name for the 1998 track > and drivers pack for Grand Prix 2. > > Allan Harrison > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8jq1sa$smo$[email hidden]... > > In article <Dgy75.22519$[email hidden]>, > > [email hidden] (Morgan V. Wooten�) wrote: > > > > > Those of you that have played this sucker: does it still have the > > > canned spins > > > of GP2 > > > > Oh shit, wasn't this done to death during GP2'2 reign? Depends a lot on > > your definition of "canned". > > > > Personally, I didn't have a problem with the spins in GP2, it was only > > one area of the overall driving model and the whole package was (and > > still is IMHO) an awesome piece of programming for its time. > > > > GP3 will not be *perfect*. The perfect sim does not, (GPL included!) and > > probably never will, exist. But GP3 *WILL* be pretty fantastic anyway, > > despite the number of minor flaws and omissions we already know about. > > > > In my opinion, (based on using GC's programs for many years) GP3 will > > raise the standards for modern F1 sims yet again, as did GP2. > > > > If GP3 is *half* as good now, as GP2 was then, I'll be passing dosh over > > the counter without hesitation. > > > > 8-) > > > > *Peter* - http://www.cix.co.uk/~peterpc/home.html > >

On 3 Jul 2000 15:27:38 GMT, Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> wrote: > Does this mean that GPL has canned "buzz up into the air, rotate 12 >times, hover, hang there for 10 seconds and fall". Well the inertia's >wrong. Definitely means it was canned I guess :-) Actually evidence of exactly the opposite - warps cause cars to meet with forces far exceeding those which would normally result from contact, however the engine responds entirely appropriately, as can be seen from the results. The "hang there" is the car bouncing off the limits of the GPL world. Probably concerning at the time for the driver, but more a limit of the 'net and latency than a limitation. John

On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 02:48:03 GMT, "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I presume by "canned" spins you mean that if you sit still and try to do >doughnuts the car won't go past about 200 degrees, which is obviously not >realistic. Funnily enough the same thing applies in GPL. The car >definitely stops at about 200 degrees. That's not what I meant - the car "stopping" at 180 degrees or so is natural, as the weight of the engine has just been swung out and it's difficult for it's direction to be reversed, hence the suddent stop. One difference is that in GPL you can get the car to keep going around and in GP2 you can't, but I can live with that. The canned part in GP2 is when trying to catch a spin. It's rightly difficult with the less forgiving fall off from the tyres, but when you DO catch the spin using the brakes, let the car stop sliding, then come off the brakes....it starts sliding again. >Also GC must have been improving something the last four years, so lets not >write the game off before it's release. Far from it - I'm looking forward to it very much. Even if it was GP2 with 3D support and proper networking, that would be what everyone eanted GP2 to be anyway. >And from what i've read GPL isn't quite the 99.5% realistic that everyone >thought. Jackie Stewart reckons the cars in '67 had way more grip (his >opinion not mine). And locking the brakes gives you shorter braking >distances than not locking (i've tried this myself). It definitely doesn't, and I've tried that myself! Cheers! John

No, it just means that you sould send your request to replace Shoemaker for the 2001 season :-) Tony StewartNo20 <[email hidden]> skrev i en nyhedsmeddelelse:[email hidden]... > Simulations get to be un real when you won the championship 10 times andcan

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> beat the AI at %120. :-) > > > All current sims feel unrealistic at some point - this doesn't > >mean that someone's sat there and programmed in some particular type of > >unrealistic behaviour that takes over automatically. > >

What are you talking about. GP3 is just the official name for the 1998 track and drivers pack for Grand Prix 2. Allan Harrison <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8jq1sa$smo$[email hidden]...

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> In article <Dgy75.22519$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (Morgan V. Wooten�) wrote: > > > Those of you that have played this sucker: does it still have the > > canned spins > > of GP2 > > Oh shit, wasn't this done to death during GP2'2 reign? Depends a lot on > your definition of "canned". > > Personally, I didn't have a problem with the spins in GP2, it was only > one area of the overall driving model and the whole package was (and > still is IMHO) an awesome piece of programming for its time. > > GP3 will not be *perfect*. The perfect sim does not, (GPL included!) and > probably never will, exist. But GP3 *WILL* be pretty fantastic anyway, > despite the number of minor flaws and omissions we already know about. > > In my opinion, (based on using GC's programs for many years) GP3 will > raise the standards for modern F1 sims yet again, as did GP2. > > If GP3 is *half* as good now, as GP2 was then, I'll be passing dosh over > the counter without hesitation. > > 8-) > > *Peter* - http://www.cix.co.uk/~peterpc/home.html

I presume by "canned" spins you mean that if you sit still and try to do doughnuts the car won't go past about 200 degrees, which is obviously not realistic. Funnily enough the same thing applies in GPL. The car definitely stops at about 200 degrees. Also GC must have been improving something the last four years, so lets not write the game off before it's release. And from what i've read GPL isn't quite the 99.5% realistic that everyone thought. Jackie Stewart reckons the cars in '67 had way more grip (his opinion not mine). And locking the brakes gives you shorter braking distances than not locking (i've tried this myself). (I'm not knocking GPL btw, I know it's the best and most likely still will be after July 28)

"Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I presume by "canned" spins you mean that if you sit still and try to do >doughnuts the car won't go past about 200 degrees, which is obviously not >realistic. There is also another "problem". When you are in a spin, and brake until you stop spinning, and then release the brake, the spin will start again. BTW, "canned" spins aren't bad, as long they're convincing. And in GP2 they are. >Funnily enough the same thing applies in GPL. The car >definitely stops at about 200 degrees. Not when you do it right <G> >Also GC must have been improving something the last four years, so lets not >write the game off before it's release. Agreed. >And from what i've read GPL isn't quite the 99.5% realistic that everyone >thought. Jackie Stewart reckons the cars in '67 had way more grip (his >opinion not mine). I wonder if he tried GPL..... >And locking the brakes gives you shorter braking >distances than not locking (i've tried this myself). I disagree. >(I'm not knocking GPL btw, I know it's the best and most likely still will >be after July 28) For me GPL will be still #1, due to the online play and the cars. But for a lot of people GP3 will be the new King. Remco

And what setup he used if he did try it... Andre

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>:> Does this mean that GPL has canned "buzz up into the air, rotate 12 >:>times, hover, hang there for 10 seconds and fall". Well the inertia's >:>wrong. Definitely means it was canned I guess :-) >: Actually evidence of exactly the opposite - warps cause cars to meet >: with forces far exceeding those which would normally result from >: contact, however the engine responds entirely appropriately, as can be >: seen from the results. The "hang there" is the car bouncing off the >: limits of the GPL world. > I was talking about offline play. Nothing to do with warps. Must be >"canned" jumps into the air obviously.

No, just divisions by something near 0. Thus resulting in unexpectedly large forces. And that means buggy exaggerated (gosh am I spelling that correctly?) effects, but not canned. I bet Papyrus rather DIDN'T have such jumps. Ruud van Gaal MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery

On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 08:19:01 GMT, [email hidden] (Remco Moedt) wrote: >>And from what i've read GPL isn't quite the 99.5% realistic that everyone >>thought. Jackie Stewart reckons the cars in '67 had way more grip (his >>opinion not mine). > >I wonder if he tried GPL..... And what setup he used if he did try it... Andre

John Wallace <[email hidden]> wrote: : On 3 Jul 2000 15:27:38 GMT, Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> wrote: :> Does this mean that GPL has canned "buzz up into the air, rotate 12 :>times, hover, hang there for 10 seconds and fall". Well the inertia's :>wrong. Definitely means it was canned I guess :-) : Actually evidence of exactly the opposite - warps cause cars to meet : with forces far exceeding those which would normally result from : contact, however the engine responds entirely appropriately, as can be : seen from the results. The "hang there" is the car bouncing off the : limits of the GPL world. I was talking about offline play. Nothing to do with warps. Must be "canned" jumps into the air obviously. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

Fair enough, i've no problem with any of that, with the exception of the braking distance thing. The test I did was using the default setup at Monza, using the front straight, acclerating to certain speed and then braking with and without locking my brakes. I made sure I tried lots of times and the car stopped about 10% quicker if I just slammed the brakes all the way down and let the tyres slide over the track. Maybe it's just my braking technique or the brake bias on the default setup but that's what I found.

On 4 Jul 2000 14:18:39 GMT, Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>John Wallace <[email hidden]> wrote: >: On 3 Jul 2000 15:27:38 GMT, Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> wrote: > >:> Does this mean that GPL has canned "buzz up into the air, rotate 12 >:>times, hover, hang there for 10 seconds and fall". Well the inertia's >:>wrong. Definitely means it was canned I guess :-) > >: Actually evidence of exactly the opposite - warps cause cars to meet >: with forces far exceeding those which would normally result from >: contact, however the engine responds entirely appropriately, as can be >: seen from the results. The "hang there" is the car bouncing off the >: limits of the GPL world. > > I was talking about offline play. Nothing to do with warps. Must be >"canned" jumps into the air obviously.

No, just divisions by something near 0. Thus resulting in unexpectedly large forces. And that means buggy exaggerated (gosh am I spelling that correctly?) effects, but not canned. I bet Papyrus rather DIDN'T have such jumps. Ruud van Gaal MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery

On 4 Jul 2000 14:18:39 GMT, Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>John Wallace <[email hidden]> wrote: >: On 3 Jul 2000 15:27:38 GMT, Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> wrote: > >:> Does this mean that GPL has canned "buzz up into the air, rotate 12 >:>times, hover, hang there for 10 seconds and fall". Well the inertia's >:>wrong. Definitely means it was canned I guess :-) > >: Actually evidence of exactly the opposite - warps cause cars to meet >: with forces far exceeding those which would normally result from >: contact, however the engine responds entirely appropriately, as can be >: seen from the results. The "hang there" is the car bouncing off the >: limits of the GPL world. > > I was talking about offline play. Nothing to do with warps. Must be >"canned" jumps into the air obviously.

Oh yeah, try making a pool game and you'll see what I mean. Ruud van Gaal MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery

David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5jz85.30660$A%[email hidden]... > > "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Dfc85.15076$[email hidden]... > > And from what i've read GPL isn't quite the 99.5% realistic thateveryone

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> > thought. Jackie Stewart reckons the cars in '67 had way more grip (his > > opinion not mine). > > Where did you read this? > > David G Fisher >

He catches the faint scent of his own personal Holy Grail.... the one damning piece of evidence, which will put the nails in the coffin of the Papyrus physics engine once and for all. He's already salivating. Wait until he finds the quote from Colin McRae, where he says "The Focus WRC? Yeah, it's much better than the old Subaru. The Subaru was utterly dependent on tire choice, spring rate, dampers... it was a mess. But Ford has developed this fantastic new lookup table system for controlling the overall dynamics of the vehicle. It's brilliant really. I don't need to worry what kind of surface I'm on... those magic numbers get me through in record time". Stephen

In article <Dfc85.15076$[email hidden]>, simon- [email hidden] says... > And from what i've read GPL isn't quite the 99.5% realistic that everyone > thought. Jackie Stewart reckons the cars in '67 had way more grip (his > opinion not mine). I'd like to know the source for this - I've often wondered if the wheelspin available in GPL right up to 4th gear and 100mph+ in some conditions on a dry track is realistic. - Michael

In article <Dgy75.22519$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Those of you that have played this sucker: does it still have the canned spins > of GP2? I really hope Geoff has fixed this. It's the main thing I didn't like about the physics model in GP2. I think it would have required a fairly major rewrite to fix something so fundamental. - Michael

"Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Dfc85.15076$[email hidden]... > And from what i've read GPL isn't quite the 99.5% realistic that everyone > thought. Jackie Stewart reckons the cars in '67 had way more grip (his > opinion not mine). Where did you read this? David G Fisher

Your absolutely right. There wasn't canned spins in GP2, but I'm sure people will say GP3 has it as well. David G Fisher "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uiE8PMF5$GA.367@cpmsnbbsa07... > > NTR <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:8jnhl7$4p6$[email hidden]... > > The power CUTS out even without steering help and opposite lock turnedoff > > and all driver aids off !!!!!!!!!! > > And BTW a sim that let you setup the car by calibrating the wheel isn't > > realistic. If in GP2 your wheel isn't setup properly the tyres feel like > > hard plastic it has no rubber tyre deformation feel at all, in a goodsim > > like GPL or Nascar3 the car feels like a car with rubber tyres even if > your > > wheel isn't properly configured and I am totally impartial here becausemy

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> > favorite game is GP2 and I almost don't play GPL or Nascar 3 but > objectivly > > seen GP2 fails as a sim > > > > Maybe it's just me, but I think a modern F1 car should feel extremely > twitchy or non-progressive compared to just about any other sort of car. > They're very light, have tons of aerodynamic grip- which completely > disappears when they're going sideways or backwards, holy-fuck-loads of > power, and the polar moment of inertia must be really tiny. I can forgive

a

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> sim for feeling a bit "supernatural" when the machines it simulates are > nearly supernatural themselves. > > -A > > >

Where did you read this? David G Fisher

Ok, here we go, it was a post on a forum a few months ago, but remember i don't know if the story is true and it's not my opinion anyway. The link to the post is http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=40815&messageid=952229067 but if that doesn't work the other way to get there is- Go to www.alphaf1.com/gp3 and click on the "discussion forums" on the left hand frame. Now on the new window click the "grand prix legends" forum. Once the page has loaded click the number 6 down at the bottom of the page, and then read the post entitled "News Flash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".

MichaelJP <[email hidden]> writes:

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> In article <Dfc85.15076$[email hidden]>, simon- > [email hidden] says... > > And from what i've read GPL isn't quite the 99.5% realistic that everyone > > thought. Jackie Stewart reckons the cars in '67 had way more grip (his > > opinion not mine). > > I'd like to know the source for this - I've often wondered if the > wheelspin available in GPL right up to 4th gear and 100mph+ in some > conditions on a dry track is realistic.

The tires only have a finite amount of traction, so in situations where almost all of it is used for turning, very little extra power is needed to break them loose. If you run with a close to open diff (as with the default setups in GPL), it gets even worse since it is very easy to spin the lightly loaded inside rear wheel (*). My guess is that the level of grip in GPL is more or less spot on, what's making the cars hard to drive for a real life driver is the lack of input the driver is used to. Besides the limited field of view, limited resolution and limited frame rate of the computer screen, almost all of the so important seat-of-the-pants input is missing. The addition of force feedback has made GPL hell of a lot better in this respect, with a properly calibrated FF wheel it is actually not to hard even for a beginner to drive the cars slowly around the track as long as the driver is not ignoring the natural reaction to stop turning the wheel further when it is starting to load up. _ Mats Lofkvist [email hidden] (*) This is exactly the same as with an open diff rear wheel drive road car; when turning really hard you can spin the inside rear wheel at speeds way above where you can loose traction while accelerating in a straight line.

Are the collision detection and resulting reaction forces *really* based on penetration of one body into the other? Collision detection, yes... reaction forces? I doubt it. Stephen John Wallace <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On 4 Jul 2000 14:18:39 GMT, Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > I was talking about offline play. Nothing to do with warps. Must be > >"canned" jumps into the air obviously. > > Still a difference in the collision detection rather than the physics > - if two cars get too far "into" each other you can imagine the forces > involved to make that happen must be considered immense, hence the > violence of the separation. > > Of course that could be "dumbed down" to make it more realistic, but > then the fizzix wouldn't be right and we can't have that. > > John

On 4 Jul 2000 14:18:39 GMT, Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> wrote: > I was talking about offline play. Nothing to do with warps. Must be >"canned" jumps into the air obviously. Still a difference in the collision detection rather than the physics - if two cars get too far "into" each other you can imagine the forces involved to make that happen must be considered immense, hence the violence of the separation. Of course that could be "dumbed down" to make it more realistic, but then the fizzix wouldn't be right and we can't have that. John

"John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 2 Jul 2000 14:31:05 +1000, "James" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >With all due respect, if you think GP2 had "canned spins", then youweren't > >truely feeling the simulation. > >It was a very difficult sim, but the spins were true. > > This has been done to death, but the spins were definitely canned to > some degree. The inertia is all wrong. Really. Please explain how you claim to *FEEL* inertia sitting at your desk playing a non force feedback game. -- [email hidden] > > John

Greg Cisko wrote:

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> > > > This has been done to death, but the spins were definitely canned to > > some degree. The inertia is all wrong. > > Really. Please explain how you claim to *FEEL* inertia sitting > at your desk playing a non force feedback game. > > -- > > [email hidden] >

That's not as difficult. The higher inertia makes a car turn in much slower, and the spin buildup is longer making it easier to drive. Change the values in the F1 2000 vehicle files to see the difference. But that's not even the point. It seems that GP2 actually got inertia right, the other sims seem to have it set much higher to make them easier to catch spins and such. -Gregor